Choice Band Rampardos can 2HKO the entire tier. Is that broken too?
But yeah, I'd only played about ten games with it. I've played some more and have changed my mind.
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Project The PU Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter trc
- Start date
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But yeah, I'd only played about ten games with it. I've played some more and have changed my mind.
Choice band rampardos has less bulk, kills itself if using its strongest STAB move, and cant switch moves. Megarupt is still insanely powerful, has passable bulk, and an amazing STAB combo that makes it way too much for pu imo
Guys, none of the new megas are going to stay in PU. The lowest rank the XY megas got was RU, and while M-Pidgeot and M-Camerupt are a bit lack-luster, they are still way too broken to stay here. The only thing stopping Pidgeots spam of Hurricane is Lickilicky and Bastidon, and Bastidon gets wrecked by HP Ground, and Lickilicky can either get off one Body Slam or Wish Protect PP stall and just hope to not get critted after a while. And the power of M-Camerupt has already been covered.
while that may probably be the case, i dont see why PU might not have a mega or two. NU is most certainly going to have a couple of megas and it didn't have any megas last gen so i dont see why PU couldn't be included in that.
And what mega could we have that would not be broken? The worst megas are either above PU already, and the ones that are here are either insanely broken(M-Lopunny, M-Beedrill) or just too good for PU(M-Pidgeot, M-Glalie)
Well we've already banned lopunny and beedrill lol, so idk why you're bringing those up. I haven't really gotten a chance to play around with Mega Pidgeot but from first looks it isn't ridiculously OP and Mega Glalie has one of the best counters to it in the tier in Avalugg. So I'd give the meta a chance to adapt before saying oh these things aren't gonna be PU, cause you never know.
I highly doubt any of the megas will stay in PU for more than one tier shift, for them to stay they have to be both not broken here and not good in NU, which seems unlikely. Also, it doesn't look like it at first, but Pidgeot is ridiculously broken and needs to leave asap.
Anyway, this thread is getting really off-topic, discussion in this thread should be limited to the viability rankings. We won't be ranking the megas until it's clear that they're going to stay for a decent amount of time. Also, TRC and I are working on a huge update to the mid and lower rankings, expect that within the next week or so.
Piloswine is and always has been one of the best pokemon in the pu metagame thanks to great offensive and defensive presence. Its dual STAB has almost perfect neutral coverage, the only pokemon that resists them, rotom-f, gets walled by pilo anyway. Base 100 attack hits hard, even uninvested which is helped by a strong STAB in EQ and then the ability to hit grass and flying types with ice STAB and the only midgame relevant bug is scyther. Icicle spear is also cool, preventing pokemon from freely subing down and forcing a 50/50 against serprior, and priority is also nice, ice shard allows it to pick off weakened threats, such as mega pidgeot and serprior or sash pokes like barbaracle. The only relevant 100<spe pokemon that resists ice shard are simipour and sear. Defensively, eviolite boosts its bulk to a really good level, allowing it to pretty much check anything without a SE STAB, it can even live some of them. Electric immunity is amazing with all the electric spam that is going around, the only offensive electric that gets past pilo is raichu and that has to hit 2 focus blasts. Stealth rock is also an amazing move, which allows it to fit onto any team even easily (seriously, it fits onto every team) as hazards are very important in this meta. Its 5 weaknesses are actually too hindering; fire get neutered by thick fat, steel is almost non existant, fighting is also rare and grass types cant switch in (not like water types like taking an eqeither..). Oras meta has been kind to pilo, who can now check pidgeot and beats rock and electric types pidgeot hates (who in return beats fighting and grass types).
This was s-rank in xy, and im not sure how it is sitting in a+. This pokemon has the ability to break teams due to literally having two switch ins; midreavus, (lol) solrock and (lol) dusclops. Offensive teams have to sac something to this to try and RK with one of the few things that outspeed it, the relevant faster pokemon being sneasel, pidgeot, serperior, purugly and (lol) zebsrtika. Misdreavus is a big pain in tauros, sadly, considering without it, stall teams get 6-0'd and bulky missy isnt as good any more due to the slight power creep and being a free switch into mega burd. Missy cant even touch sub tauros (Which is cool af if you havent tried it) and NP sets have limited switch ins, as iirc, they get 3hko'd by sf lo zen. Scarf sets are also amazing in this meta, as most players are now using either other scarfers (most of which are slower) or mega pidgeon. Its amazing movepool is surprisingly amazing, eq allows it to hit pesky rock types and annoys rocky helm + aftermath garbodor, zen heabutt royally screws over fighting types and haunter, whilst fire blast roasts avalugg and tangela.
How is this so high? Not only are hazard control more important in this meta (thanks to garb), but this was never too reliable anyway. Anty-leads were always common even before oras as kricket was annoying af, now in oras leads are a lot worse. To make things worse, it now has more competition as a suicide lead from barbaracle, as due to its high speed, it can taunt spam, also auroras, who is kawaii. Ive also found that there is usually something better for the leftovers set, Carracosta looks cooler and better utility with knock off and scald, also piloswine is better at tanking hits whilst also having priority and better typing. ORAS has only hindered it, glalie shits on it but it should check pidgeot, right? not really considering how hp grass is good coverage and it can always uturn on the switch. I have also seen a lot more tangele, which laughs at this.
There are others in high ranks which might need swapping around (im not convinced sneasel is s-rank and avalugg is also a ton better). Dunno if we are meant to talk about megas, but my predictions are pidgeot s, glalie a+, camel a-.
Where would Leafeon go?
Big update coming soon with Leafeon in it, it's going to be A+ to begin with iirc. SD is an amazing wall breaker and Chlorophyll makes Magnemite's sun team even more disgusting.
MASSIVE UPDATE TIME
Hey guys, it's time for a massive update. And by massive, I mean 97 total changes massive. TRC and I noticed that the rankings were rather inflated, so we decided to refine them with a bit stricter critera, as well as test a ton of the lower ranked Pokemon, as their rankings were inaccurate in cases. Additionally, the metagame has shifted around a bit with the release of ORAS and the recent tier shift. also galbia helped too :o
Because of the ridiculously huge number of changes, we're only giving reasoning for changes that affected the A ranks. If you want to know more about why specific changes were made, feel free to ask one of us.
Leafeon is being placed in A+ rank initially (where it was before it rose to NU) because it is one of the best and most defining Pokemon of the tier. Leafeon's Swords Dance set is a fast and threatening sweeper, and Leafeon uses its high base Defense for an offensive Pokemon to find setup opportunities. Leaf Blade / Knock Off / Iron Tail offers great coverage, the latter being especially helpful as it means Leafeon is a physical sweeper that can break through Avalugg and Togetic. With Chlorophyll, Leafeon in sun is incredibly threatening to offensive teams, often straight up 6-0ing them after a boost. Leafeon also has supportive options; it can Baton Pass its Swords Dance boosts as well as pass Wishes on defensive sets. Leafeon is one of the biggest threats in the tier, so it earns its former A+ ranking.
Mega Camerupt can easily 2HKO the entire PU tier with its powerful Sheer Force boosted moves. It also makes for a good Stealth Rock setter and has decent bulk. However, its miserable base 20 Speed and the popularity of Water-types mean that it isn't very metagame defining, so in spite of its potential brokenness it isn't quite worthy of S rank.
Mega Glalie is a very powerful Pokemon that can be a huge threat if it is overlooked due to the absurd power of its attacks. However, it is walled by common Pokemon in Avalugg and Piloswine, and it is easily outsped, especially before it mega evolves, which can be hard to do safely. Despite this, Glalie's sheer power is enough to land it a spot in A+ rank.
Tauros is easily the most threatening offensive Pokemon in PU. It outspeeds almost all of the unboosted tier, is impossible to wall outside of very niche options such as defensive Solrock and Dusclops, and can also run a great Scarf set which is very difficult for offense to deal with. Tauros is a huge threat to every PU team, even if it is prepared for, so it is easily worthy of S rank.
Carracosta is rather difficult to set up at times, and needs to run a special set to get past the most common Pokemon in the tier, which is weaker and lacks Aqua Jet, which means that it is easily revenge killed. Stealth Rock sets also now face competition from the newly legal Stealth Rock Barbaracle, which has much higher Speed and Taunt. Because of these factors, it is simply not as dominant as before, and therefore not quite good enough to warrant an S ranking.
Golem faces much more competition in its main role, a Stealth Rock setter, due to Pokemon like Barbaracle and Aurorus also receiving the move. Barbaracle has access to Taunt as well as Water-STAB for opposing Golem and Aurorus, while Aurorus itself has a higher offensive presence and better coverage and Speed.
Throh is a very easy Pokemon to fit on teams in this metagame. It can easily annoy its checks and counters with the great Taunt + Toxic set that has been rising in popularity lately, while its great bulk, power, and typing make it an excellent Pokemon in general.
Misdreavus is easily the most reliable spinblocker in PU. While other spinblockers suffer from being too frail or too weak, Misdreavus is neither; it can run both Nasty Plot and defensive sets very effectively and also has great utility with moves such as Taunt and Will-O-Wisp.
Dodrio, Flareon, Heatmor, Gourgeist-S, and Torterra haven't really gotten that much worse recently, but their drops are a product of the stricter criteria that we're using now. For various reasons, such as frailty in the case of the first three, being overshadowed by other Pokemon in the case of the last three (note that Heatmor falls into both of these groups), as well as the fact that they have all generally fallen out of favor a bit in high level play, we felt that these Pokemon stood out as not being up to par with the rest of the A- rank. Chatot is dropping for very similar reasons, as we felt it just wasn't up to par with the rest of the A rank Pokemon.
As a result of Garbodor's increasing popularity, Defoggers have become more common, which means that Kricketune's job is more difficult than before. Sticky Web teams as a whole suffer from the fact that while they can prepare for hazard removal, they can never fully prevent it, and the most important part of their team can be erased completely if they aren't careful. For these reasons, Kricketune just isn't quite the A- rank threat that it used to be.
Kecleon can now use Knock Off and Drain Punch alongside Protean, which throws its previous coverage issues out the window. Kecleon is a great offensive Pokemon in the current metagame for several reasons, including its fantastic dual priority, the high power of its moves, its status as one of the only two users of STAB Knock Off in PU, and the fact that all of its offensive moves have a sizeable amount of utility. These changes have propelled Kecleon from being a mediocre Normal-type to one of the better offensive Pokemon in PU overnight.
Aurorus got a few new toys in ORAS but the one largely responsible for the change in its ranking is the addition of Stealth Rock to its movepool. Now, Aurorus is one of the first choices for SR setters for offensive PU teams, which is enough to push it up into the A rankings.
Changes to discuss:
Sneasel to A+ (we wanted to do this ourselves but didn't want to make a change to the S rankings without bringing it up here first.)
Leafeon to A (we were pretty torn on this, so discussion on whether it should be A or A+ is encouraged.)
Hey guys, it's time for a massive update. And by massive, I mean 97 total changes massive. TRC and I noticed that the rankings were rather inflated, so we decided to refine them with a bit stricter critera, as well as test a ton of the lower ranked Pokemon, as their rankings were inaccurate in cases. Additionally, the metagame has shifted around a bit with the release of ORAS and the recent tier shift. also galbia helped too :o
Because of the ridiculously huge number of changes, we're only giving reasoning for changes that affected the A ranks. If you want to know more about why specific changes were made, feel free to ask one of us.
Code:
Leafeon added to A+
Mega Camerupt added to A+
Mega Glalie added to A+
Altaria removed from B+
Beedrill removed from D
Lopunny removed from C-
Pidgeot removed from D-
Carracosta from S to A+
Tauros from A+ to S
Golem from A+ to A-
Chatot from A to A-
Throh from A to A+
Dodrio from A- to B+
Flareon from A- to B+
Misdreavus from A- to A
Gourgeist-S from A- to B+
Kricketune from A- to B+
Heatmor from A- to B+
Torterra from A- to B+
Basculin from B+ to B-
Drifblim from B+ to B
Frogadier from B+ to B
Regice from B+ to A-
Sawsbuck from B+ to B
Swanna from B+ to B
Ursaring from B+ to B
Arbok from B to C+
Bastiodon from B to B-
Floatzel from B to B-
Glaceon from B to C+
Gogoat from B to B-
Kecleon from B to A
Klang from B to B-
Leavanny from B to C
Linoone from B to B-
Luxray from B to B-
Mantine from B to B+
Meowstic-M from B to B-
Rapidash from B to B-
Simisear from B to C+
Vullaby from B to C+
Zebstrika from B to C+
Aurorus from B- to A-
Butterfree from B- to C
Clefairy from B- to B
Metang from B- to B
Munchlax from B- to C+
Murkrow from B- to C
Quilladin from B- to C+
Sliggoo from B- to C
Wartortle from B- to C+
Wigglytuff from B- to C+
Ariados from C+ to C-
Dusknoir from C+ to B-
Furfrou from C+ to C-
Gigalith from C+ to D
Lapras from C+ to C
Masquerain from C+ to C-
Prinplup from C+ to B
Vanilluxe from C+ to C
Bibarel from C to C-
Honedge from C to D
Hypno from C to C-
Machoke from C to C+
Meganium from C to D
Meowstic-F from C to D
Ninjask from C to D
Lampent from C to C-
Persian from C to D
Politoed from C to C+
Shelgon from C to D
Vibrava from C to D
Whiscash from C to C+
Carvanha from C- to D
Dusclops from C- to C
Dwebble from C- to C+
Frillish from C- to D
Gabite from C- to C+
Lumineon from C- to D
Parasect from C- to D
Pineco from C- to D
Seviper from C- to C+
Simisage from C- to C+
Trapinch from C- to unlisted
Walrein from C- to D
Yanma from C- to D
Diglett from D+ to unlisted
Maractus from D+ to E
Seadra from D+ to unlisted
Whirlipede from D+ to C-
Emolga from D to E
Lunatone from D to E
Bellossom from D- to E
Furret from D- to E
Girafarig from D- to C+
Sudowoodo from D- to E
D- and D+ ranks removedMega Camerupt can easily 2HKO the entire PU tier with its powerful Sheer Force boosted moves. It also makes for a good Stealth Rock setter and has decent bulk. However, its miserable base 20 Speed and the popularity of Water-types mean that it isn't very metagame defining, so in spite of its potential brokenness it isn't quite worthy of S rank.
Mega Glalie is a very powerful Pokemon that can be a huge threat if it is overlooked due to the absurd power of its attacks. However, it is walled by common Pokemon in Avalugg and Piloswine, and it is easily outsped, especially before it mega evolves, which can be hard to do safely. Despite this, Glalie's sheer power is enough to land it a spot in A+ rank.
Tauros is easily the most threatening offensive Pokemon in PU. It outspeeds almost all of the unboosted tier, is impossible to wall outside of very niche options such as defensive Solrock and Dusclops, and can also run a great Scarf set which is very difficult for offense to deal with. Tauros is a huge threat to every PU team, even if it is prepared for, so it is easily worthy of S rank.
Carracosta is rather difficult to set up at times, and needs to run a special set to get past the most common Pokemon in the tier, which is weaker and lacks Aqua Jet, which means that it is easily revenge killed. Stealth Rock sets also now face competition from the newly legal Stealth Rock Barbaracle, which has much higher Speed and Taunt. Because of these factors, it is simply not as dominant as before, and therefore not quite good enough to warrant an S ranking.
Golem faces much more competition in its main role, a Stealth Rock setter, due to Pokemon like Barbaracle and Aurorus also receiving the move. Barbaracle has access to Taunt as well as Water-STAB for opposing Golem and Aurorus, while Aurorus itself has a higher offensive presence and better coverage and Speed.
Throh is a very easy Pokemon to fit on teams in this metagame. It can easily annoy its checks and counters with the great Taunt + Toxic set that has been rising in popularity lately, while its great bulk, power, and typing make it an excellent Pokemon in general.
Misdreavus is easily the most reliable spinblocker in PU. While other spinblockers suffer from being too frail or too weak, Misdreavus is neither; it can run both Nasty Plot and defensive sets very effectively and also has great utility with moves such as Taunt and Will-O-Wisp.
Dodrio, Flareon, Heatmor, Gourgeist-S, and Torterra haven't really gotten that much worse recently, but their drops are a product of the stricter criteria that we're using now. For various reasons, such as frailty in the case of the first three, being overshadowed by other Pokemon in the case of the last three (note that Heatmor falls into both of these groups), as well as the fact that they have all generally fallen out of favor a bit in high level play, we felt that these Pokemon stood out as not being up to par with the rest of the A- rank. Chatot is dropping for very similar reasons, as we felt it just wasn't up to par with the rest of the A rank Pokemon.
As a result of Garbodor's increasing popularity, Defoggers have become more common, which means that Kricketune's job is more difficult than before. Sticky Web teams as a whole suffer from the fact that while they can prepare for hazard removal, they can never fully prevent it, and the most important part of their team can be erased completely if they aren't careful. For these reasons, Kricketune just isn't quite the A- rank threat that it used to be.
Kecleon can now use Knock Off and Drain Punch alongside Protean, which throws its previous coverage issues out the window. Kecleon is a great offensive Pokemon in the current metagame for several reasons, including its fantastic dual priority, the high power of its moves, its status as one of the only two users of STAB Knock Off in PU, and the fact that all of its offensive moves have a sizeable amount of utility. These changes have propelled Kecleon from being a mediocre Normal-type to one of the better offensive Pokemon in PU overnight.
Aurorus got a few new toys in ORAS but the one largely responsible for the change in its ranking is the addition of Stealth Rock to its movepool. Now, Aurorus is one of the first choices for SR setters for offensive PU teams, which is enough to push it up into the A rankings.
Changes to discuss:
Sneasel to A+ (we wanted to do this ourselves but didn't want to make a change to the S rankings without bringing it up here first.)
Leafeon to A (we were pretty torn on this, so discussion on whether it should be A or A+ is encouraged.)
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I dont think than Sneasel should drop, Icicle Crash is a huge boost for the SD set than i was using recently, and if we ban Garbo he have a check less.
And Glailie is about to leave the tier soon (either by a NU ban or the junuary tier shift), Avalugg can become uncommn after all this changes, meaning than Snes have another thing less to care about. Obv, than doesnt mean much for the actual meta, but is something about to happen soon anyway. (all this apply to Leafeon too, im fine with it being A+ for now).
And Sneasel is also a decent offensive Sunny check if you use it in the right way.
Btw, good update, i agree with pretty much everything, and finally Seadra go to unlisted, i was waithing that since the start.
And Glailie is about to leave the tier soon (either by a NU ban or the junuary tier shift), Avalugg can become uncommn after all this changes, meaning than Snes have another thing less to care about. Obv, than doesnt mean much for the actual meta, but is something about to happen soon anyway. (all this apply to Leafeon too, im fine with it being A+ for now).
And Sneasel is also a decent offensive Sunny check if you use it in the right way.
Btw, good update, i agree with pretty much everything, and finally Seadra go to unlisted, i was waithing that since the start.
Why is Lapras at C rank? The thing is literally the bulk. It has the same special bulk as Vaporeon, and significantly more physical bulk. Its typing is a bit of an issue defensively; but certainly not offensively. Surf + freeze dry is perfect neutral coverage (and fantastic SE coverage), and with enough SpA EVs or even a choice Specs it hits hard enough. With an AV, it can tank four thunderbolts from all those common electricmons running around. It is a great pokemon against balanced teams, since it usually takes two pokemon to take it down, while it has no problem dishing out damage. In addition, it has a perfectly viable dragon-dance set that can take apart the very few special walls that wall it (licky). Substitute-dragon dance works well, and so does dragon dance - rest on rain teams...The only problem is Gourgeist.
Also, it's hard to say for me that Sneasel deserves its S ranking. A lot of pokemon can tank a knock off or icicle crash and OHKO it back (unless it's holding eviolite). The speed tier and STAB knock off is nice, but it's simple too frail for its power output, especially with its lack of a pivot move like u-turn.
But wrong thread for this
Also, it's hard to say for me that Sneasel deserves its S ranking. A lot of pokemon can tank a knock off or icicle crash and OHKO it back (unless it's holding eviolite). The speed tier and STAB knock off is nice, but it's simple too frail for its power output, especially with its lack of a pivot move like u-turn.
IMO Choice Band Rampardos is definitely outclassed by sheer force life orb rampardos. SF life orb rampardos literally 2HKOs the entire tier with a set of rock slide/ fire punch/ thunderpunch/ zen headbutt or earthquake (except for eviolite Bagon, which no one uses). Come up with a single pokemon in the tier that is not 2HKOed by the above set, except Bagon. There is none. Rock slide is by no means weak, does up to 79% damage on standard lickilicky- only slightly less than a Bouffalant choice band head charge. And paired with sticky web it is truly beautiful.
But wrong thread for this
So after a long break from PU, i thought I would discover this thread and leave a few opinions on a very underrated mon O:
Mr. Mime; A- --> A
Now this mon is very good, very fast and has some amazing niches that if discovered properly, can be used to beat most of the top rank teams. I'm just going to put them in points so I don't ramble on too much :]
I can also recognize its weaker points with it being outsped, paper thin defenses, 4mss, not being able to switch it in on things safely. However, it's very good and is one of if not the best team mate for offensive teams right now which supports the likes of mega-glalie / mega-camel.
Mr. Mime; A- --> A
Now this mon is very good, very fast and has some amazing niches that if discovered properly, can be used to beat most of the top rank teams. I'm just going to put them in points so I don't ramble on too much :]
- Where are the psychic counters in PU? not only does it not have switch ins, but it's extremely powerful with gleam, psychic/psyshock, focus blast, energy ball, nasty plot, calm mind, encore... you name it. It is very good all round and just punches holes through teams as well as sweeps nicely.
- Healing wish; this is a HUGE niche for mr. mime in my opinion. It's the only viable mon in the tier that can healing wish, pair it with a camerupt and it's priceless, it will win you games. It's such a clutch move for offensive teams and balance teams, this alone puts it very highly ranked in my opinion. It can also easily run dual stabs and nasty plot with healing wish, meaning that you can easily put it on your moveset and not have any worries.
- Versatility; this mon is highly unpredictable with what it can run as type of boosting move, ev spread (I've seen bulkier sets), the likes of encore, calm mind, nasty plot, healing wish, focus blast, gleam, psychic and psyshock, energy ball, thunderbolt, shadow ball, taunt, trick, sub baton pass, all of these are highly viable sets for mr. mime and honestly it's such an underrated pokemon. (I know i repeated some things from a previous point while mentioning moves). But honestly, it's a very dangerous mon that is extremely hard to switch into, like the mesprit of pu tbh.
- Damage output; with a life orb and the base 100 spa, it doesn't need much more. It's very underwhelming and can punch holes in peoples teams, not to mention with boosting moves of CM and nasty plot, it hurts pokemon a lot.
- Pu in general is a tier that is revolved around hazard stack and phasing. The main phasers on teams are either bastiodon, poliwrath, throh etc. These are all mons that get destroyed by mime with focus blast + psyshock/ gleam. Not to mention by having mime on the field, you automatically stop garbodor wanting to come in and take a psychic/shock. It has a very good match up basically.
I can also recognize its weaker points with it being outsped, paper thin defenses, 4mss, not being able to switch it in on things safely. However, it's very good and is one of if not the best team mate for offensive teams right now which supports the likes of mega-glalie / mega-camel.
Kingler from B- to B+ with a choice scarf it it really useable and makes a lot of things switch out. A lot of people won't expect the scarf, so they are in for a surprise once they are outsped and hit with a stab crab hammer
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Why are M-Glalie and M-Camerupt not S-Rank? M-Glalie is the definition of a suicide spike setter, and it does it fantastically. Refriderate makes Glalie a massive threat, with a 256 powered Double Edge and near 500 powered Explosion. And with great offensive stats in PU with 120/120/100, nothing is switching in and liking it. Sure, it is walled by Piloswine, but it is still very strong and should be S-Rank.
As for M-Camerupt, it 2HKOs every thing in the tier, and it can switch into a ton of things in the tier, like Zebstrika, Sneasal, Victreebel, Kecleon, Ninetales, etc. Its bulk is nice, the combination of Fire/Ground/Rock is unresisted in the meta, and overall, it is pretty meta-defining.
As for M-Camerupt, it 2HKOs every thing in the tier, and it can switch into a ton of things in the tier, like Zebstrika, Sneasal, Victreebel, Kecleon, Ninetales, etc. Its bulk is nice, the combination of Fire/Ground/Rock is unresisted in the meta, and overall, it is pretty meta-defining.
No one uses Glalie-Mega as a suicide spike setter, that's just a waste of its potential. Return/Double-Edge, Earthquake, Freeze-Dry, Ice Shard is by far the most common set (Ice Shard or Freeze-Dry could potentially be replaced by Spikes or Explosion), and though it's only walled by Piloswine, Avalugg, and Rotom-Frost, it's pretty easy to check. I would agree with it going to A+, but S is too much.
Camerupt-Mega is once again enormously hard to wall, even more so than Glalie-Mega, but easily checked due to its slow speed and 4x Water-type weakness. It also can't switch into Zebstrika, Sneasel, and Victreebel.
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Hidden Power Water vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Camerupt: 234-281 (68 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Camerupt: 146-173 (42.4 - 50.2%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Camerupt: 222-263 (64.5 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Unless you really want to hit Mantine harder, HP Electric should be used over Rock Slide by the way.
What annoys me the most about these two mega's is that they pretty much make stall unviable, because Avalugg is shit right now (can't get past by Missy), and Camerupt can only be walled by shit like Lunatone, or potentially by SpD Togetic fishing for a Fire Blast miss. That does not make them S-rank however.
Zebstrika from C+ to B. It is extremely viable as a revenge killer with a purely special set and life orb. Although less powerful than raichu, it has overheat that deals with many more threats.
After using mega camel for a lot on ladder, i've seen similarities with fire spam meta that NU is. It is true, it has NO switch ins. But, it's a lot more difficult to use it successfully as it's too slow to function or force pokemon out and can only come in on a certain number of pokes since every team in pu has a water type pokemon, it will end up forcing you out and requires a lot of prediction to use properly. Also, even if you have max hp and the boosted defenses, it doesn't appreciate unstab eq's that are usually coverage moves on pokemon such as bouffalant or tauros. It is very easily forced out and finds it hard to function easily, hence making it not as good as it could be if you could speed creep. Not to mention common walls such as piloswine, torterra, meganium even that run eq as coverage beat you. It's really not that good in practice as it is on paper, although if you get a free switch in it works a treat. But for those limitations alone I'd feel it should probably stay A+.
I used Mr. Mime once, and his scarf set is pretty good TBolt/Psyshock/focus miss/dazzling gleam is pretty smooth, especially since it wrecks Pelipper, whom I hate a ton. While I feel Ninetails outclasses him, he still is very usable and I'd second a possible raise in rank
ninetails is a completely different pokemon in typing + support. my main reason for the rise is unpredictability and its support moveset whilst it also has great damage, speed and boosting moves to help o.o
How exactly does Rotom-Frost wall M-Glalie?
252+ Atk Refrigerate Glalie Frustration vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-F: 106-126 (43.9 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
I don't see how it is a waste of potential, packing the strongest Explosion in the game after setting up your Spikes is fantastic support for another Pokemon on your team to sweep. M-Glalie is a hard-hitting wallbreaker that also can be excellent support to other sweepers on your team thanks to Spikes and Refrigerate Explosion. Though straight offensive is a monster and a half, which should definitely feared. However, i can see M-Glalie staying A+ now, as its counters are pretty standard.
And why is HP Electric better than Rock Slide? Its SF boosted STAB attacks hit everything hard enough anyway, even if resisted, and Rock Slide hits Mantine harder like you said, which otherwise would be a solid counter. I feel you are understimating M-Camerupt's power, it has no reliable switch in, max/max Lunatone gets 3HKOed by Rock Slide, which HP Electric has a possible 6HKO, and the fact that a Pokemon needs to dodge a 85% accuracy move in order to be a counter just describes how broken it is. Once it does get in for free, it wrecks terror on everything. It has trouble with stray EQs, but every S-Rank Pokemon have things that keep them from being broken, like Sneasel and Tauros. I still stand by it needing to move to S-Rank.
Fair enough, I just listed Rotom-Frost because it resists everything Glalie can do. Yes, it has an incredibly powerful explosion, but I think it's a waste of potential because you're using the mega as a suicide spiker when regular Glalie can do the same, but with a weaker explosion, and a bit less speed. Regular can hold a sash too, which is pretty nice considering Glalie's defensive stats and typing. I mean, there's not a lot of competition for a mega slot, but a mega is usually the pokemon you build your team around. Using it as a suicide spiker is the exact opposite; not that such sets can't be effective.
HP Electric is generally better because it hits all Water/Flying's except SpD Mantine (which is shit) harder than Rock Slide. So unless you want to hit other birds (Fire Blast probably hits them harder anyway), HP Electric is superior. Mantine does not counter HP Electric Camerupt at all by the way, it's a clean 2HKO.
252+ SpA Camerupt Hidden Power Electric vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 180-212 (54 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Lunatone is a counter to non Flash Cannon Camerupt. Rock Slide may be a 2HKO, but so is Fire Blast. And it gets Moonlight, so it can stall it out with Toxic. I also never said that SpD Togetic is a counter, just that it can potentially stall it out. Yes, it hits insanely hard, and I can assure you that I don't underestimate its power at all, but its speed and 4x Water-type weakness really hold it back.
Scarf Kingler isn't the reason that kingler is viable, in fact it sort of detracts from kingler because it forces perfect prediction due to the many grass and water types in the tier and it loses out on a life orb boost. Agility or dual dance is far more threatening, but it can still be stopped by a lot of pokes like Poliwrath which is why Kingler belongs in B-.
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