we had them ranked before, but TRC is bad and missed them. Piratepad is being aids right now so I can't check right now, but iirc victreebel was in B and emolga was in d.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Project The PU Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter trc
- Start date
- Status
ok
Just the ones that i already test enough:
Bastiodon from B+ to B
Bast sucks, low HP, no recovery, many weakness, is pasive and hate Taunt more than anything. The premier set up fodder of the tier, if wasnt for Chatot and Scyther i would vote for C.
Basculin from B to B+
B+ seems good, him has priority and Adapt., but has no bulk and his counters (like Peli and Poli) are common.
Mantine from B+ to C+
Pelipper is better (thanks to Hurricane, Roost and U-Turn), Mantine have much better special bulk, but meh, Mantine is a bad mon, outside of Scald and Defog him has nothing, and we have better options for that.
Swoobat from B to B+
Defensive mono Storedpower is dangerous, pair with Poliwrath and they can destroy the tier.
Altaria from B to B+
DDMono Dragon Claw is awesome, Specs is cool and defensive is decent. All the Steel-types in the tier are pretty bad, and that is a good pro for any dragon-type. Obviously Pilo, Snes, Toge and Mr.Mime can stop him, otherwise Altaria would be A.
Throh from B+ to A-
We doesnt have many Fighting-type and Poli can not be used in all teams. Knock Off is her better trait over Poli. RestTalk is a good set for defensive teams, with it he can check Snes during all the match.
Bouffalant from A- to A
CB Reckless is impossible to switch into if you give him pursuit support (thanks to god, pursuit is rare). SSipper/SoundP are cool if you need an offensive check to Grass-Types or Chatot respectively.
Scyther Keep A
Scy is awesome, but being x4 weak to SR means lots of support during a battle, every team runs Defog or at least Spin, but, Defog users in the tier have bad sinergy with him and every user of Rapid Spin sucks right now.
Avalugg Keep B-
Ava is decent, and her niche is huge i guess, being one of the few decent Rapid Spin users is cool, but Ice-Type is bad for a defensive mon, and not even learn one of many awesome ice-type Stabs that others mons in the tier have, like Ice Shard, Icicle Spear or at least Icycle Crash. Avalache is a bad move, you dont even need much prediction to play around him and set up. EQ is a nice move to run for Garbodor and some other things (i suppose) but that mean not run Roar, and many physical attackers can set up on him if you does not run Roar (SD Snes, SS Carra/Barba, SubPunch Poli, Bulk Up Throh/Gogoat), and even with Roar SubSD Bou can use you like a set up fodder.
Sneasel from S to A+
A hard one. Him isnt broken, but him is awesome, Ice/Dark/Fight give him a huge super effective coverage, STAB Knock Off is hard to switch into. And not only have an awesome speed tier, but also gets STABed priority. But Musha and Carra have much more vesatility. SD Snes does not have many set up oportunities, because you NEED to predict a switch, and if you does not run LO, you cannot deals damage until you set up. LO with 4 attacks is her better set, but have many faults: You cannot OHKO everything, but everything can OHKO you; between LO and SR damage you can die quick; every team is over prepared for you.
Last edited:
Shedinja from D+ to E
I cannot see why this thing isn't in the E rank. It literally has no bulk, a weakness to some of the most common types, being Dark, Rock, and Fire, and can't really hit back. Sure, it has the ability to wall things like Poliwrath, Piloswine, and Bouffalant, but seeing as how it loses to anything with a super effective move, I can't see it being any sort of use.
Scraggy from C- to C+
Scraggy is a pretty threatening Pokemon, being able to swallow hits with either Eviolite DD, or Eviolite Bulk-Up. It is a Fighting-type Sneasel in a way, with the same coverage, and while there is debate on Sneasel moving down to A+, there isn't really any reason for Scraggy to stay in C-
I cannot see why this thing isn't in the E rank. It literally has no bulk, a weakness to some of the most common types, being Dark, Rock, and Fire, and can't really hit back. Sure, it has the ability to wall things like Poliwrath, Piloswine, and Bouffalant, but seeing as how it loses to anything with a super effective move, I can't see it being any sort of use.
Scraggy from C- to C+
Scraggy is a pretty threatening Pokemon, being able to swallow hits with either Eviolite DD, or Eviolite Bulk-Up. It is a Fighting-type Sneasel in a way, with the same coverage, and while there is debate on Sneasel moving down to A+, there isn't really any reason for Scraggy to stay in C-
Bastiodon B+ to B
Agree. His typing is a hindrance as often as it's a boon, and while it does check lots of great mons, it's lack of offensive presence and crippling taunt weakness makes it a liability fairly often. I think it could even go lower than B, honestly. It feels more like a B-/C+ kinda pokemon to me.
Simipour C+ to B
Agree. Nasty Plot, great coverage, great speed tier. It's reliance on Life Orb and low bulk are it's only downsides.
Scyther from A to A+
Agree. It's got a handful of amazing sets, from Eviolite SD, to Band, to Scarf, to even Eviolite Tank with Roost. Very versatile, and would imo be the best mon in the tier if not for the crippling SR weakness. Even still, it puts in mucho work.
Sneasel from S to A+
Disagree. While Sneasel does miss many OHKOs and get OHKOd back by many semi-common pokemon, it does so much work against so much of the tier I don't think it can drop down because it has checks. Everything has checks. This isn't a unique negative trait. Musharna has checks too, does that drop it down to A+? I personally think the Eviolite SD set is the better set, and I've used one or the other on all of my teams in PU so far. SD turns Sneasel into a great late-game cleaner, and gives it the power to break through many things the LO set can't. Because Sneasel is so dangerous, it forces switches often, which gives you time to SD and break what would otherwise be checks.
If you're using Sneasel properly, I think it's easily as good as Musharna or Carracosta overall. I personally don't find Carracosta that great, even though it does have a handful of effective sets, none of them seem all that powerful to me.
Agree. His typing is a hindrance as often as it's a boon, and while it does check lots of great mons, it's lack of offensive presence and crippling taunt weakness makes it a liability fairly often. I think it could even go lower than B, honestly. It feels more like a B-/C+ kinda pokemon to me.
Simipour C+ to B
Agree. Nasty Plot, great coverage, great speed tier. It's reliance on Life Orb and low bulk are it's only downsides.
Scyther from A to A+
Agree. It's got a handful of amazing sets, from Eviolite SD, to Band, to Scarf, to even Eviolite Tank with Roost. Very versatile, and would imo be the best mon in the tier if not for the crippling SR weakness. Even still, it puts in mucho work.
Sneasel from S to A+
Disagree. While Sneasel does miss many OHKOs and get OHKOd back by many semi-common pokemon, it does so much work against so much of the tier I don't think it can drop down because it has checks. Everything has checks. This isn't a unique negative trait. Musharna has checks too, does that drop it down to A+? I personally think the Eviolite SD set is the better set, and I've used one or the other on all of my teams in PU so far. SD turns Sneasel into a great late-game cleaner, and gives it the power to break through many things the LO set can't. Because Sneasel is so dangerous, it forces switches often, which gives you time to SD and break what would otherwise be checks.
If you're using Sneasel properly, I think it's easily as good as Musharna or Carracosta overall. I personally don't find Carracosta that great, even though it does have a handful of effective sets, none of them seem all that powerful to me.
I don't have time to reply to everything rn but let me just say this: Sneasel stays where it is. Sneasel kills so many offensive teams it isn't funny anymore. Its speed is nearly unrivaled (iirc in PU only Zebstrika and Electrode are faster) and has emergency priority to boot. Its dual STAB is fan-fucking-tastic, resisted only by Poliwrath in PU, and its primary STAB move happens to be the ridiculous move Knock Off, so even things that can take hits from it will still hate losing their item upon switchin. In addition to all of this, Sneasel can viably run an SD set when equipped with Eviolite, becoming a bigger problem for defensive teams at the cost of not being able to hit hard right off the bat. It's always dangerous to not prepare for certain mons, but if you don't prepare for Sneasel (which is easy to do given how little hard counters it has), you can kiss your sorry ass goodbye.
Is this me but I'm I only one who finds Dusknoir in D- Rank Insulting?
Dusknoir has 45 hp, 135 Defense and Special Defense, while the HP is pretty bad the defense is very good which makes dusknoir pretty bulky, its has 100 attack stat which is pretty good in PU tier while it lacks good Stab which the strongest is Shadow Punch, it learns the moves Fire Punch, Ice Punch, Thunder Punch, Earthquake and Shadow Sneak I'll say the coverage moves makes it up for Dusknoir.
Now Remember This, Golurk or Spirtomb is not in the PU tier which will make Dusknoir more homely and will do better in the PU Tier, I do know that Dusclops and Haunter are in the tier but neither can't do Physical Attacking Well so Dusknoir dose its Job, also there is hardly any Bulky Attackers in the tier anyways (which includes both Def & SpDef)
Now here are some calcs which makes things better for Dusknoir
252 SpA Kadabra Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Dusknoir: 86-102 (29.2 - 34.6%) -- 5.4% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Dusknoir Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kadabra: 294-348 (132.4 - 156.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chatot Chatter vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Dusknoir: 72-85 (24.4 - 28.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Purugly Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dusknoir: 110-130 (37.4 - 44.2%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Dusknoir Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Purugly: 144-170 (50.7 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Garbodor Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dusknoir: 67-79 (22.7 - 26.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Dusknoir Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garbodor: 236-278 (78.4 - 92.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Dusknoir Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Eviolite Roselia: 152-180 (50 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
these calcs are mainly vs A Rank Pokemon
I Can't tell what rank Dusknoir should be I'll say around D+/C+ rank, But same rank as Pikachu, Plusle, Minun, Mothim and Girafarig that sound wrong.
Dusknoir has 45 hp, 135 Defense and Special Defense, while the HP is pretty bad the defense is very good which makes dusknoir pretty bulky, its has 100 attack stat which is pretty good in PU tier while it lacks good Stab which the strongest is Shadow Punch, it learns the moves Fire Punch, Ice Punch, Thunder Punch, Earthquake and Shadow Sneak I'll say the coverage moves makes it up for Dusknoir.
Now Remember This, Golurk or Spirtomb is not in the PU tier which will make Dusknoir more homely and will do better in the PU Tier, I do know that Dusclops and Haunter are in the tier but neither can't do Physical Attacking Well so Dusknoir dose its Job, also there is hardly any Bulky Attackers in the tier anyways (which includes both Def & SpDef)
Now here are some calcs which makes things better for Dusknoir
252 SpA Kadabra Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Dusknoir: 86-102 (29.2 - 34.6%) -- 5.4% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Dusknoir Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kadabra: 294-348 (132.4 - 156.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chatot Chatter vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Dusknoir: 72-85 (24.4 - 28.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Purugly Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dusknoir: 110-130 (37.4 - 44.2%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Dusknoir Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Purugly: 144-170 (50.7 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Garbodor Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dusknoir: 67-79 (22.7 - 26.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Dusknoir Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garbodor: 236-278 (78.4 - 92.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Dusknoir Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Eviolite Roselia: 152-180 (50 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
these calcs are mainly vs A Rank Pokemon
I Can't tell what rank Dusknoir should be I'll say around D+/C+ rank, But same rank as Pikachu, Plusle, Minun, Mothim and Girafarig that sound wrong.
Mantine should keep B+ as he has a different purpose to pelipper. There's 3 mons that are all similar and have the same type, pelipper, swanna and mantine. The main reason you'd use swanna is for offense, pelipper is for a defensive wall and mantine is for the ability and the bulk. I find myself using mantine over pelipper every day for the reason you keep water absorb and people are avoiding the use of water type moves, e.g scald, which is incredibly useful. Not to mention it stops huntail BPing boosts with haze and can stop calm mind setup most of the time. I say from personal use, it deserves to keep B+
A big problem I see with AV Duskinor is that he lacks any form of recovery. While it's true he can take hits, his longevity will be on a short timer due to his lack of Leftovers or Pain Split. Plus a super effective Knock Off will leave him high and dry. While the elemental punches, EQ and priority make him an ok attacker, he's not going to be very useful unless he gets solid support from his team. If you want him to have means of staying in the game, then you'd have to forgo with AV. Which by then you should just use dusclops.
Banded Dusknoir is great actually, it beats both spinners in the tier and can actually do some damage to other things! (Trick buttfucks both, Warturtle does not like T-punch) it is actually the best bulky ghost in the tier (Duscops is setup fodder for many dangerous mons like Ursaring, Noir is not)
Yeah, but Water Absorb need prediction to work, and you can swith into few Water-types, CB Basculin can 2HKO Mantine with Double Edge after SR damage, Poli usually runs Toxic and Simipour can kill you with HP electric.
Haze is cool but niche, because Huntail must be the only think than you can defeat or stop. You cannot expect Barba or Carra to boost in Mantine, and if you switch into them you are going to be OHKO by Stone Edge the next turn; Serperior/MrMime can just Taunt you and keep boosting (and Chatot, but Taunt Chatot is rare); you cannot kill CM mono attacker Musha, etc..
Mantine is nice, but Pelipper have much more utility.
Dusknoir isnt good, but you are right, him is obviously better than Minum. D or D+ seem better.
And again, Why is Seadra ranked?
Because that HP poison with sniper OP...
In all seriousness I don't know. Maybe eviolite could possibly maybe make it not so incredibly awfully bad? 55/95/45 defenses are pretty shite. It can boost with DD (with a scary base 65 attack! Oh, no!), it could make a not so incredibly terrible hazard lead......wait.....it doesn't learn toxic spikes......somehow.......the only thing I see is clear smog, at which point Mantine can do it better with Haze.
So, yeah, Seadra pretty much is a "fish out of water" in this tier! .................sorry, that was bad....
I'm not sure why you'd expect Seadra to learn TSpikes in any way, considering it's not a) A poison type and b)nothing else in the Horsea line learns it. Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're saying but tbh it's kinda hard for me to figure out what you're talking about here.
Basically, the best thing Seadra can do, just like BW, is SubDisable. It's mono-water typing and decent bulk allow it to get subs up on some neutral hits maybe, and it's base 95 Special Attack hits decently hard with HPump/can pass burns with scald and the like. It's definitely not a good Pokemon but I wouldn't say DD or Clear Smog (?) would be what you should be basing your judgement on.
And again it's still p garb but there is something it can do that other Water types can't. Should it be ranked? Idk, I haven't used it.
Basically, the best thing Seadra can do, just like BW, is SubDisable. It's mono-water typing and decent bulk allow it to get subs up on some neutral hits maybe, and it's base 95 Special Attack hits decently hard with HPump/can pass burns with scald and the like. It's definitely not a good Pokemon but I wouldn't say DD or Clear Smog (?) would be what you should be basing your judgement on.
And again it's still p garb but there is something it can do that other Water types can't. Should it be ranked? Idk, I haven't used it.
I was being sarcastic....but one of Seadra's abilities is poison point (probably because of the spikes on it's back) and I've always thought it had dual poison typing because it had poison point. So I'm sorta justified in thinking it should get toxic spikes.......As for the set you're describing, sure, it has decent attack power with base 95 and STAB Hydro Pump or scald, it's bulk is pretty mediocre, but etiolate might give it an advantage. As for the set, the main problems I see with it is that with Seadra's awful SpDef and mediocre HP, he's very susceptible to electric types that can outspend it, namely electrode and rotor-frost.
Okay, so I've done some testing on this Dunsparce set:
Dunsparce @ Leftovers
252 HP/252 SpDef/4 Att
Careful Nature
Ability: Rattled
- Coil
- Rollout
- Roost
- Return/Defense Curl (Tried both)
The result? Ehh...
The set has potential, don't get me wrong, but Dunsparce can't often actually set his master plan in motion, mainly because he's not bulky enough to take hits from offensive 'mons, and he's status bait from defensive 'mons. A burn, poison, or even paralysis completely shuts the set down. If Dunsparce had Shed Skin, it'd be another matter entirely (Note to Gamefreak: Give Dunsparce Shed Shin!), but as it stands, this set isn't really viable. On the upside, I discovered that Dunsparce can take a decent amount of punishment using Roost, so he could still have some merit on a stall team, which I'd say is enough to keep him out of E. Maybe drop him to D or D-, however.
I actually have a set like that on my current PU team and am testing it out. However, instead of return/defense curl, I went with glare. He already has coil so defense curl probably isn't the best option, although double damage on a 2-4x attack dunsparce can be pretty scary. I went with glare mainly because glare can shut things down. While he, himself is vulnerable to status and being Circle thrown/roared out of battle, glare scares people. If your opponent doesn't have a heal bell/ aromatherapy user, it's not going to want to switch into dunsparce, especially if the player using him is smart and can predict switches. Plus if your opponent is paralyzed and Dunsparce has several speed boosts due to rattle, he will almost always roost first. Which is great if you're planning on stalling them out or waiting for paralysis.
That being said, this guy gets shut down completely by throh. Paralyzed under guts will boost his attack, storm throw will tear through any and all defensive boosts, knock off can deprive dunsparce of it lefties, and circle throw can just make the 6 turns of boosting an absolute waste.
Thus, if your opponent has a Throh, NEVER, under ANY circumstances, send Dunsparce out. Once the fighting types are removed, though, Dunsparce can wreck. So long as he doesn't get poisoned.
Actually, I decided to face some NU teams using only a Dunsparce with the set I described, and I only lost 75% of the time!
Ah, that explains it a little more. Thanks for clearing up the TSpikes thing.
And yeah, the SubDisable set still sucks, but it's really one of the best things it's gonna be able to do.
And I mean yeah Seadra, a Water type who has poor SpDef, is gonna be taken out by Special Electrics that outspeed it, but if we judged every Pokemon on the things that obviously beat it instead of the things it can actually do, things are going to be stuck looking mediocre in a lot of situations.
To be fair tho, Seadra still sucks.
Marshtomp from unranked ---> B-/C+
Marshtomp has pretty good defense stats with the eviolite, and it is also backed up with a great typing that provides amazing defensive typing and some offensive pressure as well.
70/70/70 bulk eviolite means it can take hits on either side of the spectrum invested or not, and gives it the ability to run physically defensive or specially defensive, both being able to counter different mons.
As long as Kadabra or Frogadier are not running Energy Ball or Grass Knot you completely wall them.
Earthquake 2HKOS Barbaracle and Carracosta before Shell Smash and has a chance OHKO both after Shell Smash and rocks unless running white herb
Edit: oops didn't realize we can't be discussing mons other than what's listed until after I made this post... I will leave this post up for now as it provides information but tomorrow I will go into detail about the changes being considered
Marshtomp has pretty good defense stats with the eviolite, and it is also backed up with a great typing that provides amazing defensive typing and some offensive pressure as well.
70/70/70 bulk eviolite means it can take hits on either side of the spectrum invested or not, and gives it the ability to run physically defensive or specially defensive, both being able to counter different mons.
As long as Kadabra or Frogadier are not running Energy Ball or Grass Knot you completely wall them.
Earthquake 2HKOS Barbaracle and Carracosta before Shell Smash and has a chance OHKO both after Shell Smash and rocks unless running white herb
252 SpA Life Orb Haunter Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Marshtomp: 95-113 (27.6 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Kadabra Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Marshtomp: 84-100 (24.4 - 29%) -- 99.6% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Frogadier Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Marshtomp: 105-125 (30.5 - 36.3%) -- 47% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Chatot Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Marshtomp: 142-168 (41.2 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Kadabra Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Marshtomp: 84-100 (24.4 - 29%) -- 99.6% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Frogadier Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Marshtomp: 105-125 (30.5 - 36.3%) -- 47% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Chatot Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Marshtomp: 142-168 (41.2 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Marshtomp: 99-118 (28.7 - 34.3%) -- 3.3% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Marshtomp: 117-138 (34 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Carracosta Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Marshtomp: 90-107 (26.1 - 31.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Carracosta Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Marshtomp: 179-212 (52 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Barbaracle Razor Shell vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Marshtomp: 186-219 (54 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Marshtomp: 125-148 (36.3 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Silk Scarf Purugly Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Marshtomp: 88-105 (25.5 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Marshtomp: 117-138 (34 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Carracosta Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Marshtomp: 90-107 (26.1 - 31.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Carracosta Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Marshtomp: 179-212 (52 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Barbaracle Razor Shell vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Marshtomp: 186-219 (54 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Marshtomp: 125-148 (36.3 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Silk Scarf Purugly Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Marshtomp: 88-105 (25.5 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Edit: oops didn't realize we can't be discussing mons other than what's listed until after I made this post... I will leave this post up for now as it provides information but tomorrow I will go into detail about the changes being considered
Last edited:
I feel like Marshtomp is definitely very viable, but other than typing I don't see what Marshtomp offers that Piloswine doesn't. I think because of its potential as an alternative to something like Piloswine, Marshtomp should be C+.
Alright, so TRC will be posting the results of the Council's votes soon. In the meanwhile, feel free to discuss all the following nominations: (Please try not to make any new ones just yet! We have so many that still need to be discussed.)
For many of these Pokemon, very few of them have been used and seen by the Council members. While we endeavor to try and test out as many of these Pokemon as possible, we need the experiences of the PU community as well. If you support a Pokemon rising/falling/staying in rank, please try and explain your reasoning and POLITELY address any opposing arguments. I do not want to see any more posts like "No, it shouldn't move up" or "X Pokemon is so good! Move it up!" without proper reasons. You aren't just trying to persuade the Council, you are trying to persuade the PU community!
Code:
Throh from A- to A
Gogoat from B+ to A-
Altaria from B to A- / B+
Avalugg from B to A- / B+
Simipour from B to B+
Electrode from B- to B
Quilladin from C to C+
Simisage from D to C+
Solrock from C- to C+
Tropius from C- to C+
Wailord from C- to C+
Walrein from C- to C+
Dusclops from D+ to C
Vibrava from Unlisted to C
Dusknoir from D- to D+
Maractus from D- to D+
Regigigas from E to D
Cacnea from unlisted to D-
Corsola from D to E
Dunsparce from D+ to E
Illumise from C- to E
Minun from D- to E
Noctowl from D to E
Phione from D to E
Pidgeot from C to E
Plusle from D- to E
Stantler from D+ to E
Shedinja from D+ to E
Unfezant from D+ to E
Clefairy from D+ to unlisted
Pikachu from D- to unlisted
I think B+ is a bit too high for Simipour. It is 100% outclassed by Raichu in terms of what it does and is way slower than it.
Throh from A- to A I can agree on this
Gogoat from B+ to A- I don't really use Gogoat so I might be wrong but whenever I face it it isn't very threatening so I think its fine at B+
Altaria from B to A- / B+ Both Dragon Dance and Specs sets are very powerful but both can be walled by common walls and killed by those same pokemon (Avalugg/Articuno) B is perfect for this
Avalugg from B to A- / B+ This thing is an absolute tank being able to take (nearly) any physical hit with ease and it gets rapid spin so it can also support your team as well as just wall. It is no lie to say this can be a- even with its special defense stat so low
Simipour from B to B+ Nice speed tier, great coverage, and Nasty Plot... need I say more? Definitely B+
Electrode from B- to B Soundroof Great speed Meh Special def is nice and all but it has low attacking stats and doesn't have any reliable coverage Keep
Quilladin from C to C+ Nice defenses and bullet proof makes it good but it still is outclassed by tangelo keep C
Simisage from D to C+ Outclassed by other monkeys keep D
Solrock from C- to C+ Dont use it so no comment
Tropius from C- to C+ Nice Defenses and Harvest C+
Wailord from C- to C+ No comment
Walrein from C- to C+ Nice defensive good ability but Ice typing C!
Dusclops from D+ to C Lack of offensive pressure, no RELIABLE way of recovery (Pain Split can be easily predicted and used against you) keeps this thing in the lower rankings D+ justified
Vibrava from Unlisted to C Needs more testing before i comment
Dusknoir from D- to D+ Basically less defensive Dusclops with more offensive presence. Its stab move is weak and coming off a low (compared to other mons) base 100 attack stat
Maractus from D- to D+ Needs more testing
Regigigas from E to D Parafusion... D rank is fine for that gimmick
Cacnea from unlisted to D- No just no. Outclassed by mightyana SP isnt stab its frail and slow keep unlisted
Corsola from D to E No comment
Dunsparce from D+ to E D rank in my opinion ParaFlinch is a thing even though its not the best it can work
Illumise from C- to E Anything this can do Volbeat can do better E rank
Minun from D- to E Why use this over Raichu E Rank for sure
Noctowl from D to E D- I dont use this but it has quite a bit of special defense recovery defog. Gets beaten by tons of top tier pokemon but it still has a niche of a specially defensive defogger with recovery
Phione from D to E I see no reason to do this other than tail glow pass volbeat onto a better pokemon
Pidgeot from C to E Offensive defoggers place pressure on the opponents team while also removing hazzards so i dont think this is e rank but it should drop some
Plusle from D- to E again why use this over raichu E rank
Stantler from D+ to E No comment
Shedinja from D+ to E Stealth rocks toxic willo spikes toxic spikes all kill it in one turn E rank
Unfezant from D+ to E This thing is basically pidgeot -defog E rank
Clefairy from D+ to unlisted This can take physical hits better compared to togetic and has an arguably better ability Keep D+
Pikachu from D- to unlisted Sticky Webs support can turn this thing into a monster. stay D-
Gogoat from B+ to A- I don't really use Gogoat so I might be wrong but whenever I face it it isn't very threatening so I think its fine at B+
Altaria from B to A- / B+ Both Dragon Dance and Specs sets are very powerful but both can be walled by common walls and killed by those same pokemon (Avalugg/Articuno) B is perfect for this
Avalugg from B to A- / B+ This thing is an absolute tank being able to take (nearly) any physical hit with ease and it gets rapid spin so it can also support your team as well as just wall. It is no lie to say this can be a- even with its special defense stat so low
Simipour from B to B+ Nice speed tier, great coverage, and Nasty Plot... need I say more? Definitely B+
Electrode from B- to B Soundroof Great speed Meh Special def is nice and all but it has low attacking stats and doesn't have any reliable coverage Keep
Quilladin from C to C+ Nice defenses and bullet proof makes it good but it still is outclassed by tangelo keep C
Simisage from D to C+ Outclassed by other monkeys keep D
Solrock from C- to C+ Dont use it so no comment
Tropius from C- to C+ Nice Defenses and Harvest C+
Wailord from C- to C+ No comment
Walrein from C- to C+ Nice defensive good ability but Ice typing C!
Dusclops from D+ to C Lack of offensive pressure, no RELIABLE way of recovery (Pain Split can be easily predicted and used against you) keeps this thing in the lower rankings D+ justified
Vibrava from Unlisted to C Needs more testing before i comment
Dusknoir from D- to D+ Basically less defensive Dusclops with more offensive presence. Its stab move is weak and coming off a low (compared to other mons) base 100 attack stat
Maractus from D- to D+ Needs more testing
Regigigas from E to D Parafusion... D rank is fine for that gimmick
Cacnea from unlisted to D- No just no. Outclassed by mightyana SP isnt stab its frail and slow keep unlisted
Corsola from D to E No comment
Dunsparce from D+ to E D rank in my opinion ParaFlinch is a thing even though its not the best it can work
Illumise from C- to E Anything this can do Volbeat can do better E rank
Minun from D- to E Why use this over Raichu E Rank for sure
Noctowl from D to E D- I dont use this but it has quite a bit of special defense recovery defog. Gets beaten by tons of top tier pokemon but it still has a niche of a specially defensive defogger with recovery
Phione from D to E I see no reason to do this other than tail glow pass volbeat onto a better pokemon
Pidgeot from C to E Offensive defoggers place pressure on the opponents team while also removing hazzards so i dont think this is e rank but it should drop some
Plusle from D- to E again why use this over raichu E rank
Stantler from D+ to E No comment
Shedinja from D+ to E Stealth rocks toxic willo spikes toxic spikes all kill it in one turn E rank
Unfezant from D+ to E This thing is basically pidgeot -defog E rank
Clefairy from D+ to unlisted This can take physical hits better compared to togetic and has an arguably better ability Keep D+
Pikachu from D- to unlisted Sticky Webs support can turn this thing into a monster. stay D-
I'm sticking with my previous opinion that he should move up to C-. I tried a coil/glare/roost/rollout set (see posts above) an it works decently well. He can take special attacks rather well fully invested in SpDef and takes physical attacks beautifully with a few coils in him and roosts off the damage. While most know him as a Paraflincher, and a pretty decent one at that, this set leaves him less prone to being revenge killed.
So putting my previous statements about Dunsparce (and this one) all together, he at least deserves a rank higher than freaking Delibird (who shouldn't even be in D imo, but I guess no new suggestions now)
Pikachu to unlisted? I disagree hugely. If used correctly, it's potentially one of the best revenge killers in the tier and I've been using it myself. With light ball plus + attack nature, it hits 458 attack... that's one powerful espeed that can potentially fuck over mons by outprioritising it, in web it can outspeed anything viable in the tier bar haunter+ scyther, it's a massive threat, it definitely doesn't deserve to be unlisted, if anything D rank imo.
Quiladin deserves C+ imo, very good bulky spike stacker, cool ability that hard walls things like roselia also.
Throh to A, I agree, i think it's a fantastic bulky mon with several viable sets, however I think he's only A- because people use the bad set and don't know how to use him properly :L It's probably the best offensive switch in to Raichu in the tier and knock off is very nice for dealing with tangela and evio users :]
Quiladin deserves C+ imo, very good bulky spike stacker, cool ability that hard walls things like roselia also.
Throh to A, I agree, i think it's a fantastic bulky mon with several viable sets, however I think he's only A- because people use the bad set and don't know how to use him properly :L It's probably the best offensive switch in to Raichu in the tier and knock off is very nice for dealing with tangela and evio users :]
Throh from A- to A: Agreed. This thing is a monster that never dies in a single hit, and can dominate with his offensive set.
Gogoat from B+ to A-: A Pokemon I like to use, due to its reasonable bulk and attack, as well as a good movepool.
Altaria from B to A- / B+: Altaria can go many ways in sets, from Roost-DD, Specially defensive with Cotton-Guard, specs, psychical, it's really versatile and didn't deserve that B ranking.
Avalugg from B to A- / B+: Disagree. While it has a huge defense stat, you have to run max special defense to hope to take a special hit, but even then, it is usually 2HKOed, and without the defense investment, Pokemon like Carracosta and Flareon fuck it up.
Simipour from B to B+: Agree. Ever since Samurott went back up to NU, PU was really lacking a good special attacking water type, and with Simipour having access to so many good moves like Nasty Plot, Hydro Pump, Grass Knot, Focus Blast, and Ice Beam. And it has decent enough abilities in Torrent to fuck up shit when low, and Gluttony, which could be used with a NastySalac set. And it's not like it has a horrible psychical movepool either, with moves like Waterfall, Superpower, Knock Off, Ice Punch, and Low Kick.
Electrode from B- to B: This thing is just way too fast. It is a good support Pokemon with Taunt, Eerie Impulse, Magic Coat, and even moves like Torment and Sucker Punch can come in handy.
Quilladin from C to C+: I haven't really seen what this can do, so I don't really have an opinion.
Simisage from D to C+: Just like Simipour, except he is pretty much outclassed by Serperior.
Solrock from C- to C+: No comment.
Tropius from C- to C+: Can be pretty annoying, but really has too many common weaknesses.
Wailord from C- to C+: No comment.
Walrein from C- to C+: Has a decent enough typing and stats, so yeah, I guess.
Dusclops from D+ to C: While I love Dusclops, as it is insanely bulky with a Eviolite, I think C rank is too much, C- fits it better.
Vibrava from Unlisted to C: While outclassed by other defoggers, still pretty good.
Dusknoir from D- to D+: This is what I would expect to move up to C rank, as while it can't use Eviolite, it still has good bulk and offensive pressure.
Maractus from D- to D+: As much as I like the dancing cactus, Sucker Punch is the only thing this has to seperate itself from Roselia, and even then, Roselia is better in every way.
Regigigas from E to D: Parafusion is pretty annoying, and it's only more so when you realize this thing is just a few turns away from having the biggest attack stat in the tier next to Slaking.
Cacnea from unlisted to D-: Same with Maractus, while it has Sucker Punch, even with Eviolite, it's defensive are complete booty, and can only be threatening with an SD, which any offensive Pokemon wouldn't allow.
Corsola from D to E: Regen+Recover isn't enough to keep this thing afloat.
Dunsparce from D+ to E: Paraflinch sucks a lot, but it needs a lot of hacks in order to set up to actually do damage. Agreed.
Illumise from C- to E: Volbeat really outclasses it in almost every way.
Minun from D- to E: Why was this thing ever considered usable?
Noctowl from D to E: While Vullaby outclasses it defensively, Noctowl can do some damage offensive, while still being able to take hits.
Phione from D to E: Takes too much set-up for this thing to be good in any way.
Pidgeot from C to E: TPP wasn't enough to have this thing be any sort of use offensively, and as a Defogger is outclassed by too many things.
Plusle from D- to E: Again, why?
Stantler from D+ to E: Agreed.
Shedinja from D+ to E: Glad my suggestion was taken. :]
Unfezant from D+ to E: The same as Pidgeot, is just outclassed by too many things.
Clefairy from D+ to unlisted: Is completely outclassed by Togetic and Wigglytuff in every single way.
Pikachu from D- to unlisted: With Light Ball and Sticky Web, this thing is a monster, though anything that can take the hit pretty much takes it out. Neutral.
Gogoat from B+ to A-: A Pokemon I like to use, due to its reasonable bulk and attack, as well as a good movepool.
Altaria from B to A- / B+: Altaria can go many ways in sets, from Roost-DD, Specially defensive with Cotton-Guard, specs, psychical, it's really versatile and didn't deserve that B ranking.
Avalugg from B to A- / B+: Disagree. While it has a huge defense stat, you have to run max special defense to hope to take a special hit, but even then, it is usually 2HKOed, and without the defense investment, Pokemon like Carracosta and Flareon fuck it up.
Simipour from B to B+: Agree. Ever since Samurott went back up to NU, PU was really lacking a good special attacking water type, and with Simipour having access to so many good moves like Nasty Plot, Hydro Pump, Grass Knot, Focus Blast, and Ice Beam. And it has decent enough abilities in Torrent to fuck up shit when low, and Gluttony, which could be used with a NastySalac set. And it's not like it has a horrible psychical movepool either, with moves like Waterfall, Superpower, Knock Off, Ice Punch, and Low Kick.
Electrode from B- to B: This thing is just way too fast. It is a good support Pokemon with Taunt, Eerie Impulse, Magic Coat, and even moves like Torment and Sucker Punch can come in handy.
Quilladin from C to C+: I haven't really seen what this can do, so I don't really have an opinion.
Simisage from D to C+: Just like Simipour, except he is pretty much outclassed by Serperior.
Solrock from C- to C+: No comment.
Tropius from C- to C+: Can be pretty annoying, but really has too many common weaknesses.
Wailord from C- to C+: No comment.
Walrein from C- to C+: Has a decent enough typing and stats, so yeah, I guess.
Dusclops from D+ to C: While I love Dusclops, as it is insanely bulky with a Eviolite, I think C rank is too much, C- fits it better.
Vibrava from Unlisted to C: While outclassed by other defoggers, still pretty good.
Dusknoir from D- to D+: This is what I would expect to move up to C rank, as while it can't use Eviolite, it still has good bulk and offensive pressure.
Maractus from D- to D+: As much as I like the dancing cactus, Sucker Punch is the only thing this has to seperate itself from Roselia, and even then, Roselia is better in every way.
Regigigas from E to D: Parafusion is pretty annoying, and it's only more so when you realize this thing is just a few turns away from having the biggest attack stat in the tier next to Slaking.
Cacnea from unlisted to D-: Same with Maractus, while it has Sucker Punch, even with Eviolite, it's defensive are complete booty, and can only be threatening with an SD, which any offensive Pokemon wouldn't allow.
Corsola from D to E: Regen+Recover isn't enough to keep this thing afloat.
Dunsparce from D+ to E: Paraflinch sucks a lot, but it needs a lot of hacks in order to set up to actually do damage. Agreed.
Illumise from C- to E: Volbeat really outclasses it in almost every way.
Minun from D- to E: Why was this thing ever considered usable?
Noctowl from D to E: While Vullaby outclasses it defensively, Noctowl can do some damage offensive, while still being able to take hits.
Phione from D to E: Takes too much set-up for this thing to be good in any way.
Pidgeot from C to E: TPP wasn't enough to have this thing be any sort of use offensively, and as a Defogger is outclassed by too many things.
Plusle from D- to E: Again, why?
Stantler from D+ to E: Agreed.
Shedinja from D+ to E: Glad my suggestion was taken. :]
Unfezant from D+ to E: The same as Pidgeot, is just outclassed by too many things.
Clefairy from D+ to unlisted: Is completely outclassed by Togetic and Wigglytuff in every single way.
Pikachu from D- to unlisted: With Light Ball and Sticky Web, this thing is a monster, though anything that can take the hit pretty much takes it out. Neutral.
I think C- might be a bit too high. Like I said, I certainly see the potential, especially after all the tests I've done, but Dunsparce is just status bait. Glare helps, but in the end one burn or Toxic and he's done. I'd say a flat D ranking would be best for now. Who knows; maybe someone will crack the code and Dunsparce will find a better place in the future.
- Status