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Discussion in 'Pokémetrics' started by X-Act, Apr 1, 2008.
Bah! I need one of those "could be cool" badges so I dont get left out next year.
As soon as I saw Hippowdon didn't make OU...
Nice job! You sure as hell had me fooled!
This looks much better! Kingdra is really good with being able to mix-attack from physical or special attack side in equal power, and one rain dance out speeds everything on the field with minimal EV investment on speed with the 50% bonus for its STAB water attacks. Plus, the access to STAB'ed draco meteor with a typing combination that gives it only one weakness and you got quite a strong, versatile, hard to predict pokemon. It may not do well in OU, but it sure as heck was stronger than it was listed as a BL.
Kudos to the new OUs!
Great to see none of my major Pokes have fallen, and really great to see Kingdra (going to have to breed one for myself).
Too bad the list seems based entirely around usage and very little on power (if at all).
Weezing, despite the usage drops, is an absolute top OU pokemon and comes nowhere near BL status (it clearly outclasses donphan, incidentally). It is an great Gyarados counter and just an awesome all-around physical wall with a decent special movepool to take advantage of.
Jolteon literally has THE worst movepool since Unown and is incredibly fragile, and has insufficient special attack to be able to sweep unboosted with that great speed - looks BL. It's a similar reasoning to why Raikou (who has access to CM, at least) is BL.
Kingdra is outstanding in rain, but fails utterly without it. The existance and incredible frequency of Hippowdon, Tyranitar and Abomasnow alone make this unworthy of an OU spot.
Gallade is incredibly fragile with that disgusting base 68 hp, particularly on the physical side, but does pack quite a punch with CB on top of possessing a good physical movepool - It's the only set I see achieving anything at all in OU though, and one Heracross outclasses it in. Double Status sounds nice, but coupled with base 80 speed... meh.
Roserade and Umbreon always seemed BL, good job there. I'd start ranting about Abomasnow, but its not worth it ^-^
I don't think you understand how tiers work. OU and BL are considered around the same strength. Suggesting Jolteon is to be moved down to BL when our algorithm suggests it is used enough to be considered OU is kinda... well, dumb. Same goes for Weezing. He isn't USED enough to be considered overUSED.
Also, there is a correlation between usage and power. The strongest Pokemon will always end up being the most used because competitive players naturally select the stronger Pokemon for their teams. Suggesting something is used often and weak is clearly wrong. :/
by "too bad" to you mean "good thing"
i mean this is pretty much our accepted definition of how to tier lol
I like this Tier List.
Kingdra's an interesting addition.
lol i have feeling woobbufeet is gonna be put right back into ubers really fast
Deoxys-S/..might last long, maybe perminent
This statement in itself is wrong, unless we have different definitions of "strength". Heracross possesses the same strength as Pinsir? Infernape is as strong as Blaziken? Flygon compares to Garchomp?
While there is no fixed BL metagame, the BL Tier can be divided into two categories : Those pokemon who are just barely too strong for UU, thus making it an UU banlist, and those who are clearly too strong for UU but just short of achieving OU power. This in itself is the reason for the huge discrepancies existing in the BL Tier.
While there's no arguing with the logic of your first sentences there, the bolded one I disagree with - something can be used fairly often and be relatively weak.
Incidentally, Jolteon appears as 38th on the weighted usage statistics for the sole reason that it makes a decent lead and an alternative to the 10 completely broken leads in the metagame - it simply is too weak to play any other role well, and EVEN in the "lead pokemon" department (it's speciality, so to speak), it is outclassed by at least a dozen other pokemon.
Also, by definition, Deoxys-E and Wobbuffet came down from a superior metagame, Ubers, so you'd think they'd be in the top 10 most used pokemon right away - they make a measly 45th and 47th. Snorlax is 21st.
The difference being that in terms of STRENGTH, Weezing's typing, ability and stats make it unique and not directly outclassed by any other OU pokemon - while Jolteon has the ability to a) batton pass substitutes or speed or b) fire off hidden powers and her 2 other special moves - she is outclassed in both roles by other OU pokemon (Ninjask and any top special sweeper, respectively).
As you say, generally there is a correlation between usage and power, but there are exceptions. Dragonite, for instance, has some incredibly powerful options available to it, yet it just barely makes OU nowadays in terms of usage - because it is totally outclassed by 2 superior (more powerful) pokemon.
This isn't the Shoddy tier list. This is the Smogon tier list. While the Shoddy Battle statistics are taken into account, being the only reliable resource, the addition of Deoxys-E and Wobbuffet to OU was not issued by Smogon, thus making it a moot point.
Whew, way better.
Also I think Deoxys-E should be OU, it's very easy to beat IMO.
I'm assuming Mekkah's new title was part of it?
Will the tier lists listed outside of the forums on smogon reflect these changes anytime soon? Or is this forum-only for the time being?
people still think electivire is actually good
lyfsaho your entire post is giving relative power of pokes too much weight. usage determines tiers. ideally, all bl pokes start out uu and are progressively banned. most of your premises seem based on your own opinions based on a pokes performance. im not going to argue for jolteon/dragonite but if they are used enough then they are OU.
If we include Wobbuffet and Deoxys-S in the list, there are 49 Pokemon this month, just the same as last month.
I saw that you had posted and was expecting some amazing comment... I was disappointed. Seriously, it's pretty obvious that if the two "limbo" pokemon get added then 47 + 2 = 49
Anyway it doesn't matter really... I guess I was just disappointed since I was expecting some awesome post.
good, so my suspicion was well founded, and Wobb is still in hell where it belongs; but it's not over yet. However, I will see to it that Wobbuffet be hammered to hell for good when the time comes, and may be as a bonus, Deoxys-S.
Gah, stop kissing up.
I liked the joke one better, this one is much less exciting, haha. Well, I expected Kingdra's usage to leap up. What with all the recent talk about it that has been going around. People don't seem to understand that Sand Storm was a bother to Kingdra since forever. It has been BL, thus being able to only compete in OU - Where Sand Storm is on every other team. Same old, same old for him.
Finally Umbreon got the boot. I've only ever seen 1 since February, and it didn't do very much (I don't think the other guy really knew what he was doing though). And it just screams "Come rape me now, Heracross!". Unless they Charm you on the switch to Hera, but how many Umbreon sets use Charm? ?_?, Sure, it might not be the worst Eeveelution, or the worst OU / BL, but it's a one-trick pony and it can't do anything else besides TrapPassing.
Odd that Slowbro still hasn't seen a recovery back up yet. People underestimate the... Hermit... Thing. Great Machamp and Mamoswine counter.
Well those are my thoughts.
EDIT: One more thing! Wobbuffet. Fuck that thing, whose stupid idea was it to test it in OU? I'm hoping it gets re-banned on Shoddy, since seeing them on the ladder is extremely annoying... As to kill them it requires extra effort and planning, as well as [usually] a sacrifice of one Pokemon. Deoxys-S I've ran into once, and it died pretty quickly... Can't really comment anymore on poor little D-S.
Poor Spiritomb, I fully understand why Weezing (Awesome but just overlooked for other tanks), Umbreon (easy to predict and counter), and Roserade would get dropped from OU in usage but I always thought Omb was top notch despite not seeing him very often. He's really hard to OHKO while managing to prevent people from setting up with Taunt, Sucker Punch, etc. The only real weakness I ever had with him is he's hard to switch in unless they're using Norm/Fighting/Psychic attacks.
Oh well, Electrivire's still on the list so clearly it's not perfect. ><
Apparently, some of the people here like hipmonlee or someone else's name I forgot have seen whisper stuff into Colin's ears.
I could be, wrong, it's just a rumor.
Glad to see some people make some sense.
Wow, I hope I don't get infracted for this. Your logic is terrible. The OU tier is simply dependent on usage, and not power. Clearly you've never used half of the pokemon you refer to in your little rant. Passing a sub protects jolteon from status, and he beats a good portion of the leads out there off the bad (salamence cough gyarados cough yanmega cough), and can throw up a sub in front of the sleep leads. Not only that I wouldn't call anything with 300+ speed and special stats WITHOUT an item "weak" by any stretch of the imagination. Have you ever used specs jolteon? Have you ever used Jolteon??? It's OU for a reason.
And your points about heracross vs. pinsir, infernape vs. blaziken, etc. is also off because they have the same base stats! Pinsir and Heracross have the same attack, and pinsir actually has BETTER defense. Heracross is OU because he gets a stronger bug move and isn't weak to rock, not because he is "stronger" or "more powerful." If Pinsir gained fighting type they'd be the same damn pokemon.
And OU and BL does happen to be relatively the same strength. That's why pokemon move from BL to OU over time. That Snorlax that was 21st... used to be BL, along with Crobat, Kingdra, Gallade and others. Hell, Shaymin is towards the bottom of BL, and is one of the most frightening pokemon in the game and has Celebi "outclassed" offensively.
Seriously, get a grip
Actually, he's a pretty good battler, from what I've seen.
From calcs I've seen in the past, Jolteon needs some stat-ups to sweep, so SpecsJolt is kind of a moot point. =\
the OU list isn't really concerned with how good your theorymon is ._.
not everything has to all out sweep like lucario and garchomp. Most things not named Blissey, Snorlax, and Regice cannot take two specs T-bolts unless they resist it... period.
EDIT: Thank you Gorm.