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The Reasons People Oppose Tiers (Read before you judge please).

Discussion in 'Stark Mountain' started by Ken Sical Ifreet, Dec 25, 2009.

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  1. Ken Sical Ifreet

    Ken Sical Ifreet

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    Why do people oppose Tiers?

    Why do some people misunderstand the Smogon Tiers?

    Why is their so much discontent with some people about Tiers?

    All of these questions are easy to answer.

    Please read ahead.

    Tiers: to some it is something needed, to others it is abominable, and to others still, they don't exist.

    1.What are tiers?


    Tiers are mainly used on the internet by gaming communities for one main purpose: to determine what is the elite and what is not. This is the main cause of people misunderstanding the Smogon Tiers, and claiming them to be like every other tier that separates the best from the rest. With the majority of tiers that exist, they separate the best of alot of aspects of a game into different levels that determine their worth. Weapons, general items, characters, play styles. Tiers can be applied to just about any aspect of a competitive game you can look at. The two biggest examples of this are the Super Smash Bros and Halo, which have tiers for Characters and Weapons respectively. While it has some positive effects on the game, such as keeping up with the Best of the Best. It has some negative effects as well.

    2.What positive effects do Tiers have?

    The positive effects of a tier put into place in a competitive game depends on what type of tier it is. As with Smogon's tiers, it helps keep track of the most used Pokemon in the Competitive metagame, and it also sees who are the most used leads in the meta-game. With Tiers like with Smash Bros. and Halo, they tell what character/ weapons are better than others, and which ones would be a good idea to use. Tiers also refer to player Levels in MMO games, which are used to keep players of the same level in certain areas sot hat they will not be overwhelmed. Role-Playing games in general have tiers built into them, in the form of weapon strengths, armor strengths, accessory strengths, etc. Tiers also sometimes help the metagame, so tiers in cases have a few positive effects.

    However, there are darker sides of tiers that many do not see, the next section refers to these in parts, because these can be diverse.

    3.What negative effects do Tiers have?

    While Tiers indeed have their benefits, alot of them have the same negative effects. These affect the metagame, players, how the game is played, and the mindsets of players. These negative effects cannot be dispelled by people by simply stating something along the lines as "its his/her fault for not being as skilled" or "Tiers are there for a reason", or anything in defense of tiers. These negative effects exist and must be noted.

    These negative effects are the most prominent effects of most, if not all tiers in many cases.

    1. "ITB Syndrome"
    2. Evolution and Stagnation
    3. Hate, Drama, and Alienation
    Let us look at these.

    ITB Syndrome - There is a bigger world...

    This is my personal little nickname for this phenomenon. I call it "Inside-The-Box' Syndrome". This phenomenon is very prominent in many competitive settings and is noticeable almost instantly when talking to people of various communities. This stems from tiers in general, whether it be about usage, performance, or skill, this phenomenon will exist. This "syndrome" causes people to limit their thinking down to what could be called a variation of the "And/Or Fallacy". Tiers usually end up creating the illusion in peoples minds, be it a conscious thought or otherwise, that in order to be any good at a game, you either have to use what is popular or struggle.

    In the Pokemon community, there are many instances that this can be considered true. However, many of these problems can be overcome. An example is Primeape vs. Scizor. In the usual battlefield, Primeape stands no chance against a Scizor.

    However, a Primeape that is trained to have a Special affinity, and equipped with the move "Vacuum Wave", has the potential to defeat Scizor; the lower Special Defensive stat is Scizor's biggest weakness, and in the current meta-game, a Scizor never carries a Special Defense higher than 196. Which makes it weak against such a Primeape, even if Lucario can potentially fill this role.

    Another example is Luvdisc, a Pokemon considered by the majority of people to be useless...but is it really? Like a lot of Pokemon that exist, it is a Water-type, a type that typically has few weaknesses. However, its Base Stats take a gradual climb from the bottom-up. Its highest Base Stat is its Speed, while everything else mediocre or sub-par.

    Offensively speaking, Luvdisc can be useless...but this is the result of this syndrome as much as it is the Base Stats that Luvdisc possesses. In a similar vein as the Special Primeape, Luvdisc can be augmented by a Baton Pass partner to make it into the Pokemon people wanted out of it. Luvdisc can be as powerful as any Pokemon with augmentation from a partner.

    It is the narrow-mindedness created by this "Inside-The-Box' Syndrome" that does not allow such weaknesses to be exploited in new ways, and allow the usage of more Pokemon in Smogon's current metagame. It is also because of this type of thinking that some people dislike tiers. As long as this problem exists, the next issues will affect the metagame.

    Evolution and Stagnation - The ups and downs of the metagame

    It is said by some or many that the metagame is always evolving and changing. Yet the statistics and other tiers say otherwise. While the metagame does indeed evolve, it also stagnates. It could be said about the current metagames of Smash Bros. and Smogon's environment that they are currently stagnating.

    In the usage tiers, the tier is stagnating, not only in the sense that Pokemon positions are changing, but also the relative positions of those in the Top Six have stagnated. The most used is always Scizor, Latias is usually in third place, and not too long ago, Tyranitar has -or has come close to- entering the Top Six. These changes overall are minor, as they are not some major upheaval in terms of usage. The less-used Pokemon remain less-used, and nobody does anything to change that simply because of numbers that can be modified through normal game play.

    In a similar vein, the Super Smash Bros. tiers are also stagnate, as the tiers have not changed much at all for a very long time. This is because it has been found that some characters perform better than others. However, this is because the characters are usually tested in a controlled environment that gives little-to-no hazard to their movement or playing style. Thus, because of this, the character's strengths and weaknesses against one another become unbalanced.

    This stagnation is largely created by narrow-mindedness stemming from ITB Syndrome, affecting people's mindsets and limiting their minds from other possibilities beyond what usually allows them to win.

    These above two problems contribute to the negative side of Tiers, and are what generate some of what comes next. This problem creates alienation among members of a community, and is the cause of the notoriety of some communities for being hostile to newer members not well versed in the games, such as GameFAQs.

    Hate, Drama, and Alienation - Nobody wants these...

    Whether it be GameFAQs, Smash World Forums, Serebii.net, etc. Wherever you go, Hate and Drama are something that always follows. No matter what form it takes, or how it is done, Hate and Drama are evident in alot of places in different communities. The most severe cases of such hostility usually stem from gaming communities that hold a competitive vein, and when they are unleashed on newer members, another problem sets in: Alienation.

    Alienation is known far and wide by people, it happens in schools, it happens in real-life communities, it happens in society in general, no matter how "civil" a society is. Alienation will appear in some form, just like Hate and Drama. Most competitive tiers result in this, and create a mentally-induced caste system.

    While this is not prominent on Smogon or Serebii.net, or some other communities. The happening of such can end with the afflicted person or persons resulting in falling into complete conformity in order to fit in with a community, or abandoning the interest completely. This kind of treatment of newer members is wrong and uncalled for. No matter what the given reason is. So they were unaware of some basic principle of game play? Does it hurt one to explain it? No, which is why such things should be frowned upon and actively so.

    While Smogon does not have the stigma of the third problem, the first two are prominent. The Smogon Tier lists are in stagnation, and the players mindsets are limited, disallowing new and exciting ideas to be thought up by the players whom enjoy the Pokemon metagame, and people whom do not come up with new things that coincide with what is 'Standard' are usually chided upon.

    That is the end of this, and always remember.
    Whatever the tier's function, a problem will always arise from it in some form, whether actively discussed or not.

    I thank you for taking the time to read this all the way through before you post. If you have not, I highly suggest you do so. However, in the case of the usual stuff.

    TL;DR: Tiers, no matter their function, will create a problem of some form or another, even if not widely discussed.


    Please have good Christmas Day.


  2. cantab

    cantab

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    The most positive effect of the tiers we have, indeed, the primary reason we have tiers, is to create a well-balanced game out of a less well balanced game. Playing Pokemon with no restrictions at all probably won't lead to a very well balanced game.

    This is only a problem for novices, and timid novices at that. Experienced players, and those willing to experiment, will choose UU or NU Pokemon if they think they are the best for their teams, and will try new ideas. (How do you expect to be the best if everyone knows what you're using?) If it turns out that they are good, they will rise. Once becoming OU, novices will pick them up. If novices are lagging behind experts in making use of new ideas - well I don't see that as a problem.
    Certainly, any team building guides should mention that just because a Pokemon is not OU doesn't mean it can't succeed in OU. The analyses conclude with opinions, which will say about specific cases.

    Luvdisc isn't useless...it's just totally outclassed by many things. If you're gonna use examples, use sensible ones. There are very few fully evolved Pokemon that have no competitive merit; Luvdisc is one of them. (Unown is another, Ditto is a third - if you do want to Transform, Smeargle is better)

    I would say that our tiers are more dynamic than many others, since they are based on usage. And we have regular suspect tests. We could see Manaphy in OU soon; we might lose Salamence not far away either.

    tl;dr: The tiers aren't stagnant, and plenty of people are trying new stuff.
  3. Sudo

    Sudo

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    Even if, god forbid, things settled down long enough and the tiers become more fixed (aka stagnant or centralized), I hardly see that as being a problem. It won't detract from the elements that make the game enjoyable. Take chess for example; although it's been in one form for a considerably long time and analyzed to death by countless players, it doesn't stop thousands of people from enjoying it.

    I usually find that people who have a problem with Smogon's tiering typically harbor an opinion on a Pokemon that goes against Smogon's judgment of it. If they are stubborn enough they'll end up rejecting the tiers in favor of their own viewpoint, which is ultimately one that does not gear towards the goal of competitive battling. I.e people who don't like tiers are in general non-competitive.

    Regarding the Primeape example:

    <+Eo> why not use
    <+Eo> overheat
    <+Eo> >_>



    EDIT: I can't believe this point would be contested any further. And since I don't want to clutter up this thread with more nonsensical posts...


    OK. So how can you expect people to take you seriously when you say something like:


    Primeape with a Modest Nature, Choice Specs, 252 Sp.Atk EV's, no other boosts

    uses Vacuum Wave on typical Choice Band Scizor: 22.7% - 27.4%

    4HKO considering max damage rolls on all shots (not even SR makes it a 3HKO lol).

    Jolly Primeape, no Sp.Atk investments or boosts

    uses Overheat on typical Choice Band Scizor: 109.6% - 129.4%

    As an added bonus, since you are so persistent on this matter:

    Primeape, Modest nature, Choice Specs, Max Sp.Atk EV's, +6 Sp.Atk boosts baton passed to it

    uses Vacuum Wave on Typical Choice Band Scizor: 91.5% - 108.5%

    you're not even guaranteed a OHKO with so much investment lol!
  4. bearsfan092

    bearsfan092

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    First of all, we must realize that except in the case of Ubers, tiers are simply the result of usage. They are not some artificial divider created by Smogon to keep some Pokemon down, as some people from websites like Serebii have a tendency to think.

    Referring to what you call "ITB Syndrome", that is not the fault of the tiers. Were there no tiers and simply an Ubers banlist, people would flock to the same standards. Not everyone is creative enough to come up with new and innovative sets like Theorymon. As such, people will share proven sets that have the highest probability of success, and centralization will occur with or without the help of official tiers. Because of this, the stagnation of the metagame you bring up happens without the assistance of tiers. They share no direct relationship.

    Now, regarding the alienation of newer users:

    This is also a result of the lack of open mindedness and creativity by most users, NOT the tier system. People generally don't accept different things, just take a look at human history. The human mind generally is not open to new radical ideas. This is the true source of the competitive elite attitude, not some tier system that merely sets ban lists based on usage. It also doesn't help that some of these newer users create gimmicky, limited-use sets and then herald them as the be-all end-all metagame changer. Both parties are often at fault.

    In two sentences, I can summarize my main argument. The Tier System is not at the root of the problems you mentioned. Rather, it is the lack of creativity and rigid thinking of many players that leads to the problems you cited above.
  5. TAY

    TAY You and I Know
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    The porpoise of tiers in competitive Pokemon is not "to determine what is elite and what is not." Their purpose is to create a playable metagame while maintaining a reasonable number of restrictions. OU wasn't created in order to determine the best playable Pokemon; in fact, it wasn't really created at all. It is simply the inevitable result of players using the best possible Pokemon in order to win, since if a Pokemon is "elite" it will be used more. Scizor isn't "elite" because it is in OU, it is "elite" because it is extremely useful; and it is in OU because it is frequently used. This whole thread is unfortunately based on a false premise =|

    Remember, the tiers are based on usage; usage is not based on the tiers (at least theoretically). The only tiers that have actually been created - and are therefore not based on usage - are Ubers and Borderline. Neither is intended to be a competitive metagame.
  6. Blackhawk11

    Blackhawk11 one on one

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    Comments in bold.

    tl;dr If you don't like the tiers, you've got two options: don't fuss about it, or actually make an effort to change it. By that I don't mean just this theorymonning; I mean get on Shoddy and use Primeape to beat Scizor. Baton Pass to Luvdisc. If these strategies work, other people will follow and use them.
  7. Chillarmy

    Chillarmy

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    Tagging onto what TAY said, the tier system is based on usage alone. Not the overall viability of a Pokemon. Lanturn and Porygon2 for example are viable in OU because of their unique uses; Lanturn can switch into most of the Special Attackers in OU without much trouble and is one of the best Starmie counters around while Porygon2 is an excellent check to Heatran, Salamence, Gyarados and any other Pokemon that can become crippled by their own ability. In all honesty, I rarely see players discarding Pokemon because of their tier these days =/

    FYI: The tiers in Smash are based on tourney wins for the most part. Wario isn't as tourney-viable as Diddy or Falco for example, however, he managed to gain a huge boost after being hyped by a decent amount of players for his near even match up against MK. In better worded terms, Wario was 3rd in tourney wins, but now he's around 8th if I remember correctly. Though, once you hit the lower tiers, viability becomes more of a factor in tiering (Jiggs doesn't suck as much as Link's recovery).
  8. cantab

    cantab

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    One thing that does concern me a little is that Smogon seems to have a monopoly on the tiers. But that said, it's not hard to break. Anyone can set up a Shoddy server. Suppose the Smogon staff made Scizor, Salamence, and Blissey Uber (I admit this is unlikely to happen). If battlers were to really hate that, they could vote with their mice, by going to a server set up with them still OU.
  9. Sudo

    Sudo

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    Like I said, most people who just blatantly oppose tiers aren't really competitive (this does not mean that people can't disagree and discuss about certain placements). Several communities and groups have indeed set up their own tiers (although admittedly with shakier reasoning behind their decisions). It's just that Smogon has attracted most of the competitive players because, frankly, its community has made the soundest choices regarding play (in addition to carving itself a niche with its focus on competitive pokemon long before other sites picked up on it).
  10. MrIndigo

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    There are two reasons for why you would have a tier, but both have the same underlying motivation.

    a) Balance; This is the reason for the banlist formats. Certain pokemon are so much more powerful than their compatriots that they make battling one-dimensional; everyone has to use either that, or counter-that. By banning certain pokemon/items, you open up more viable variety and diversity in the metagame.

    b) Sterility; This is the reason for the UU format. When certain groups of pokemon see heavy use, people can become bored with the genericness of the format. It's not that there are certain pokemon that are dominating the others in strength, it's that they are dominating in popularity and players grow tired of playing the same matches over and over again. UU bans pokemon that have a certain amount of usage in OU to make sure that pokemon that don't get a look-in in OU have a chance to be used.


    BOTH of these stem from enjoyment of players, and that's the entire reason for having rules administration of any kind; The policy committee try to apply house rules to the inherent rules within the game to try and maximise the enjoyment of competitive players.
  11. Garganator

    Garganator

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    It's good to see someone who doesn't bitch about how Smogon in evil and just flame without any good reason. It's good that someone tries to use arguments and back them up. Unfortunately you didn't convince with your way of thinking.

    Ironically I think that game would be even more... overcentralised around few most powerfull threats. Imagine game without tier - what do you think would happen ? It would be centralised around strong legendaries like Kyogre, Palkia or Rayquaza making other choices much worse and make so many pokemon useless. You would never see Venomoth and no one would even bother with Dusclops. In NU you may use them and still be competitive. That's why tiers exist - to find most effective pokemon (and usage will do it for us and it's the most fair method to do it without many controversial decisions) and split pokemon into their "places" to make competitive as much pokemon as possible. Without tiers for me it would just look like Ubers tier we have right now - based on sickly strong legendaries and Scizor/Forretress to help them ;). In other words ironically that "illusion" you mention in your post would be even stronger, making even more pokemon "useless". Tiers help to balance this out and still make competitive as much pokemon as possible. And if people starts to use only few pokemon, someone will find few counters/checks to them and metagame will be forced to evolve, sooner or later. Most of times it happens later and I think that's the reason why many people think that tiers looks like you say. But I'm sure it's not true.

    Competitive pokemon and laddering force you to win - it's true and playing to win is nothing wrong. If you play on ladder, you play to win as I mentioned earlier. And as few people said here, you don't need to use only bog standards to win games. Abomasnow is perfect counter to bulky waters and check to grass types - if you need both, go with Abomasnow. Ambipom isn't totally outclassed with really fast Taunt and strong Fake out to stop suicide leads cold. Scarf Primeape also isn't bad if you need good Scarfer and something that absorbs sleep. You still may think "outside of the box" and still being competitive. People don't want to be ? They choose what's the best, but it makes them predictible. And you may use it against them. But it's not tiers fault. And if you feel bored with OU, there's always other metagame, where you may use other pokemon (and maybe some of your favourites) and still play to win. You kill two birds with one stone ;). And metagame changes and surprisingly I met Specially Defensive RestTalk Gyarados, which I also use. I think you expect to metagame change in every single month, being more dynamic and I need to say - it's impossible and people first need to adapt to those changes. Sometimes it takes months, but I think it's fair trade for more balanced metagame.

    Cheers ;).
  12. RegalStar

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    Smogon doesn't have a monopoly on tiers. Its tier list is considered standard simply because Smogon's shoddybattle server is basically the battling medium with the most amount of documentable data on it (wi-fi doesn't count for this reason because nobody who's interested in making a tier list has access to collective data on the battles there - if such data exists at all). Sure, anyone can set up a ShoddyBattle server, but I highly doubt they will reach the 500-600k or however many battles Smogon's servers are receiving per month, and more data leads to more accurate results.
  13. RBG

    RBG Got a long list of ex-lovers, they'll tell you I'm insane.
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    This is a point that I hate to see repeated over and over again. Let me phrase it in simple words

    Smogon only decides tiers for our own site.

    This means that what we say is NOT meant to be law at other sites. Other sites are more than welcome to make their own tiers, decided by whatever method they choose. Our tiers our only made for use on our site and forums. If you go to another site, you are free to use whatever tiers you want. Just don't assume that we try to make a monopoly on tiers. We don't. We just try to make the best possible tiers for our site and if other sites choose to follow our tiers, then that is their choice.
  14. Iconic

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    While this is entirely true, I still don't think it's wrong for Smogon to have a 'monopoly' over the tier list (by monopoly, I'm basically implying that Smogon's tier list is more widely abided by and respected). It's so much easier for a universal tier list, and based on Smogon's reputation and intelligence with Suspect testing, I don't think there's anything wrong with it. However, yeah other sites can still make their own list, but I think it's fairly counterproductive.
  15. Ken Sical Ifreet

    Ken Sical Ifreet

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    @ everyone:

    Apparently the half of you don't understand one thing here about me...

    I understand the Smogon tiers are based on usage.

    The function of the tiers placing Pokemon based on usage however has made older Pokemon that could fill those same rolls with some assistance from a teammate become extinct.

    @ Sudo: Overheat is an overrated move for its power. Its basically like some once shot beam weapon from a FPS. Its impractical unless you have boosts that allow your Pokemon to retain a healthy Sp.A or you use it on a Physical Pokemon for the element of surprise, where Sp.A isn't as important. It is also because Overheat cannot outspeed Bullet Punch, the best way to counter Bullet Punch (or so I believe) is a move of similar priority on a Pokemon that exploit Scizor's defensive weakness in the fact he is lacking special defense, this way Primeape isn't completely walled by Scizor. He actually has a chance to defeat Scizor as opposed to the usual method of using him as a Physical attacker when he doesn't have access to Mach Punch.

    @ Garganator: I was about to make a response to this claim before you guys started flooding responses in. The only real restriction that is need is Pokemon that are Legendaries or Pokemon too powerful for their own good.

    At least you didn't use Rage on me like Blackhawk, who was overzealous in his response here (well, overreacting would be a better term).

    @ Blackhawk: You apparently failed to extract the meaning fo some of my later words in that part of the post, particularly this:

    Also, apparently you are blind to the way some people on other forums are treated because they are new. Some of them are verbally-thrashed because they think differently, I never said anywhere that is was a problem here on Smogon, nor did I imply it. I specifically said:



    Also, in case you are visually tone deaf, I was not fussing about the tiers, I wasn't slathering Smogon's name with mud about it, and was not intending to.

    @ Everyone again: I always try to be original, whether it be the Pokemon I use or the movesets I use. I try to find other move sets that could possibly use some Pokemon for another than they are typically used for.

    Here is a link to an RMT on Serebii that I did recent that shows an example.

    Here, please have a look.

    There are no EV spreads there, but that is the proto of the team. Another example of a role for Arbok could be to set-up on the opponent with Glare, use Swagger after the fact, and maybe even use Attract on them to make things even tougher for the opponent. The set up could help the team by allowing a Stat-Passer to safely use the moves it needs to boost another Pokemon on the team.

    Like Ambipom > Drifblim> Magmar/Arbok/Primeape or Drifblim > Ambipom > Magmar/ Primeape/ Arbok.

    Utilize Stockpile and Agility for Arbok to make it even bulkier and faster, and all three for the other two. Heck, to an extent, Drifblim can attack using Shadow Ball or Air-Cutter. There you have it.


  16. supermarth64

    supermarth64 Here I stand in the light of day
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    Didn't read the whole thing, but I must say this.

    You obviously haven't read this before:
    http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue1/inverse_metagames

    Secondly, your argument here is flawed. The idea is this: Why use a Pokemon that requires assitance in order to do a mediocre job when you could use a Pokemon that requires assistance to do a good job? Or rather, why use a Pokemon that does a mediocre job by itself when you could use a Pokemon that does a good job by itself? For example. Say you can Baton Pass a Swords Dance and an Agility to Altaria. Why would you? You can easily Baton Pass that to Salamence and cause a lot more destruction.

    No one is saying "Hey don't use this Pokemon because it's UU". There are still some Pokemon that can fill specific niches well. For example, Shaymin vs Celebi. While defensively, Celebi shines, Shaymin's Seed Flare provides it with a unique niche that allows it to be useable in OU.

    Edit: Pokemon too powerful for their own good? Then use them. That's why they're there. That RMT that you linked to gets easily demolished by a simple stall team in UU, as Spikes does way too much to it. There's a reason why we don't use Choice Specs Slaking: because it's overshadowed by other Choice Specs users.
  17. ARandomDude

    ARandomDude

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    Dude Ubers srpread Scizor is the bomb.
  18. scorchedsky

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    Did you not see the post above yours showing damage calcs? BP always 2HKOs Primeape, whereas vacuum wave is like a 6HKO or something stupid like that. Overheat OHKOs Scizor (your goal), and in return you're not OHKOd by BP. That's the only way your Primeape beats Scizor.

    Also, you seem to be ignoring everything we're saying. Tiers are based on usage, usage is based on winning. Great battlers stay creative to keep winning, and never overlook any pokemon. Your special Primeape and Luvdisc aren't used because they have been thoroughly examined, and other pokemon help people win more.


    also "TIRES DONT EXITS"
  19. Ken Sical Ifreet

    Ken Sical Ifreet

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    I clearly remember acknowledging that the Smogon tiers are based on usage. Also, I do not remember seeing anywhere that anyone explained that usage is base don winning, "Tiers are based on usage" does not imply that usage is based on winning, hairsplitting as I am making it.

    Great battlers stay creative to keep winning? Yeah, I kind of understood that from the start. Read my signature.

    Also, correction. A 2HKO on Vacuum Wave if augmented with with two Nasty Plots and a Power-up item like Fist Plate, as I said earlier. I checked this with Smogon's own Calculator. Swords Dance Scizor would be potentially OHKOed by Vacuum Wave. The others are 2HKOed.

    If you want to go along the same vein, then Fire Punch would OHKO Scizor as well because he not only takes quadrupled damage from Fire, but also because his lack of increase in Defenses makes him extremely vulnerable. HP Dark also allows Primeape to hit Pokemon he couldn't hit otherwise.

    ...I'm not even going to try to argue that last point, and was that last part necessary...at all?
  20. capefeather

    capefeather no shit
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    Messages:
    2,884
    The basic point of this thread was pretty obvious already. It's not like we couldn't figure out that *gasp* a system of organizing characters into a list indirectly comparing usability is flawed in some way. I do have a couple of objections to the way in which you presented your ideas, as well as some agreements.

    I guess the biggest thing has already been said by bearsfan092. You're blaming the wrong thing for the problems you've listed. Tiers may be a catalyst for these things, sure, but the benefits far outweigh that. Tiers provide us with a simplistic picture of the metagame (the main purpose of all tier lists), as well as banlists and a valid way to produce a low-tier metagame (UU/NU). Outside of that, tiers have no purpose and certainly shouldn't completely dictate what you use.

    Ultimately, I find every time that people who "dislike" or "hate" tier lists have some kind of fatal misunderstanding about competitive gaming. Sometimes it's as stupid as an assumption that competitive gamers have no life. Other times it's a simple misunderstanding of what exactly the tiers are for (which I've stated in bold above). When trying to fix this mentality, all anyone can really do is to inform the person of his/her misunderstandings. Hopefully, it's done in a compassionate manner (more on that later), and even then, if the person refuses to budge, then there's probably no hope. The person may even be a troll.

    Many have talked about ITB Syndrome before me here, so I won't reiterate what they've said. I will comment, though, on the misconception. If people are not being creative, that's their own fault, and certainly not the fault of Smogon or its tiers. In fact, many sets in Smogon analyses aren't even being used enough to register in usage statistics. So lack of creativity certainly isn't Smogon's fault <.<

    Concerning stagnation, you use tier placements of characters to measure stagnation. This is another common and huge mistake that people make. While it is true that character placements are largely stagnant, the playstyles of the characters themselves show continual evolution. If you look at SSBM, the top five have been pretty much at the top for a while now. Nonetheless, if you compare 2003 Marth to 2009 Marth, the difference will be painfully obvious. You can also look at how long it took for Deoxys Speed to be banned from OU to the point of it being obviously Uber... with a set that it was entirely capable of running all along. And it's not even like tier placements don't change significantly. In every tier change since the current UU system, Pokémon have switched tiers.

    Community clique behaviour is inevitable, including hostility towards newcomers, and I agree that this is quite unfortunate. Some newcomers enter a community just to troll or are complete idiots who are too blinded by pride to listen to others. The community then eventually becomes calloused and eventually ends up holding all newcomers to an often impossibly high standard. At that point, a newcomer's experience really depends on who they happen to meet first and what mood those welcomers are in. This is a problem with all communities and it's really up to the individual to do his/her part in not spreading the stigma, as well as trying to understand the opponent's point of view as best as he/she can, because that's all we can really do. Sometimes, I have to look back at a community at what it does, and even what I've joined the community in doing, and wonder whether certain events could have easily been handled better. We have to be humble about this, though, and try not to look like we're putting ourselves on a pedestal if we do criticize the community (which I'm currently not trying to do).

    Unfortunately, people are quick to anger. The ongoing bitterness between Shoryuken and Smash World Forums is a prime example of this. At Evo 2008, Shoryuken made extremely questionable decisions for its SSBB ruleset. The main post talking about the ruleset was honestly not very well-explained; I didn't even realize until much later that this is done with all new games on Evo regardless of what the game's community has established. The backlash was extreme, and it worsened when Ken lost to a random 14-year-old in the final. Now even very reasonable people on both sides are quite hurt, and they're quick to dismiss the other side as childish.

    I've been shafted as a newcomer to a community myself as well, though ironically this was a non-competitive community and I hadn't even registered for the "main community hub" website at the time. On a GameFAQs forum, I criticized an article on the Chrono Compendium because I felt that it was more about portraying religion in a bad light than about its intended purpose simply to provide a different perspective on a certain plot point (hint: Zeal). For whatever reason, the head honcho of Chrono Compendium somehow got really offended by this and started to bash religion. Whatever I did to try to explain myself just made him angrier and more incoherent in what would eventually become personal attacks on me. At this point, I subconsciously want nothing to do with the community, though I do acknowledge that most of its users are in fact very nice people inspired by each other's love of the Chrono series.

    Moral: One confrontation is a very powerful thing, especially from the leadership. People in the Smogon community with any leadership status should really, really keep this in mind (though I'm not saying that they aren't).

    I'll stop rambling now.
  21. scorchedsky

    scorchedsky

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2007
    Messages:
    262
    according to Garganator, "if you play on ladder, you play to win" - he even mentioned that he said that earlier, dude. You use pokemon on the ladder, you try to win on the ladder, doesn't it follow that usage is based on trying to win?

    lol seriously? i can't even imagine how many things i could list that are not OHKO'd by a BP that can OHKO Scizor with +4 and a plate. What does HP Dark that Close Combat doesn't outdamage? an NVE CC from Primeape, adjusting for base attack (0 attack EVs and 252 sp atk modest) does 66% of the damage a SE HP Dark does to a pokemon with equal defenses. what are you trying to hit, Gengar?

    also with 252 attack adamant CC does 91% of the damage a SE HP Dark

    with all the Brawl you were mentioning i figured you read some competitive smash forums, i always thought their big meme (well smashboards at least) was "TIRES DONT EXITS," which is what people would post in every thread complaining about tiers
  22. Garganator

    Garganator

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2008
    Messages:
    540
    But still I think it would make some pokemon useless, as you just make two tiers with Legendaries (and with less powerfull pokemon) and some of them aren't overpowered. For example I can't imagine how Celebi or Jirachi are overpowered and they're legendaries - we should ban them, because they're legendaries ? On Smogon obviously overpowered pokemon are banned to Ubers or BL tier anyway, so we keep the point you pointed in this quote. We just added few more options and to be honest I don't understand why people call this system bad. It's really solid, based on usage (most fair option) and I don't see any serious faults. One change I would love too see in future - it's to add one more tier under NU, to make pokemon like Butterfree much more viable. And if players keep on using the same pokemon, as I said - some players will find counters/checks, which will force players to be more creative sooner or later. Or something will end up banned if someone find too broken set.

    I think that you just use bad examples here to prove your points and it lookes like you're not that serious in proving your points (and I'm sure it's totally opposite) and claims like this makes some stupid misunderstandings. It's like saying that earth is flat and we all know it's not true. It's not that we flame your examples - I think that you just made few mistakes in showing your arguments. And that Primeape and Luvdisc examples for me at least look like mistakes and make you look a bit (no offence)... unprofessional if you want to have serious discussion. But I'm sure it's just misunderstanding. It's not that we dislike you because you think differently - it's because we don't undestand some arguments which users with different opinions make in this "tier thing" case.

    Also about new users - maybe some people shouldn't overreact (I won't judge who's bad, who's good, moderators and admins are for this) but if someone new comes in, uses some strange arguments and doesn't listen ours - it's hard to agree with him and no offence, but I feel like this when I face few users from other forums. And if he feels that he doesn't know enough to discuss in threads - he may always ask someone and I'm sure some people are ready to help. At the beginning new user should just for few days stay in and read some threads to at least try to understand out point of view. And after this try to discuss. If they have good arguments - I'm sure no one will flame him, because he thinks in different way. It just depends on arguments and how good they are. That's it. It's simple as hell, but I think some people forget this and that's why we have some flames and misunderstandings.

    @ Everyone again: I always try to be original, whether it be the Pokemon I use or the movesets I use. I try to find other move sets that could possibly use some Pokemon for another than they are typically used for.

    And no one stops you from being original ;). There are other options which aren't popular and may help you win some matches and I'm sure someone may still being creative and competitive. Choice Band Snorlax isn't popular, but no one argues that's a bad set. But the difference between solid sets and gimmicks sometimes is really thin - gimmicks may help you win games, but if you put them with some thought. If you want to use some gimmicks just to be "original" it's not the best idea and people won't take you here seriously if you argue that's good option. And for some people it's hard to understand. And all those people, who say it's bad option - it's not because they hate people with other opinions, but they just want to help. But they want to help improve your team to "win" not to make it "cool". And people (especially new) should remember this when they enter Smogon ;).

    Cheers.
  23. Rook

    Rook

    Joined:
    May 19, 2009
    Messages:
    469
    You don't become a great player by using heavily outclassed pokemon when there are so much better options. You use creative sets if that certain set by that pokemon cannot be done better by any other pokemon. So to be a great player, you should use Luvdisc instead of all the better pokemon out there? Many people say the same thing you are - that as long as you use underused pokemon, you'll be a great pokemon player. That's not the way it is - you use sets that work to be as competitive as you can. If that means using standard sets, so be it. If you're purposely using outclassed pokemon to try to be fair, read this. This illustrates that to win, you don't use things just because they're unorthodox. You use things that are effective. If you try to make a creative set, you have to make sure it works, and it's not outclassed. Just explain to me how you win so many matches by using NeverUsed pokemon that are completely outclassed. They are NeverUsed for a reason, they just do not compete, or have any niche in higher levels of the metagame, to go up a tier or two. I'm not saying you shouldn't use creative sets - people like Theorymon use many once underused and neverused pokemon to good success in tiers that most people dismissed they could be effective in. But there is a difference between using Shiftry in Ubers and using Luvdisc in Standard - one works, the other does not. No other pokemon can fill Shiftry's niche. Luvdisc is outclassed by almost every water type. Even for Baton Pass, just use Gorebyss. The point is, no one will ever be truly competitive unless they play to win, and not just to use unorthodox (and many times bad) sets.
  24. RegalStar

    RegalStar

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2008
    Messages:
    176
    Usage IS based on winning because that's what competitive battling is about. (Most) battlers use pokemon that (said battlers think) will help them win.

    Nothing to say here.

    ...Unless your opponent is throwing the towel for you, no one with any kind of skill at all is going to let either Primeape itself (Does it even LEARN Nasty Plot?) set up two NPs OR let someone else set them up and pass it to Primeape without a good fight. Not to mention you seem to totally ignore something - why in the blue blazes would I go through all the trouble just to set up a Primape and 60 base special attack instead of, Iunno, Lucario, just so I can 2HKO a Scizor with the most inefficient move for doing so possible?

    Why wouldn't Primape use Fire Punch if it is set up to beat Scizor? Also what are you trying to hit with HP Dark (and again, with Primape's 60 base SpA) instead of... uh, say, Punishment (which, although weaker by default, is based on an attack score that's like 50% better)?

    Nothing to say here, again.


    There seems to be a fundamental concept you don't get here. In the world of competitive pokemon, the primary object is to win within the ruleset. EVERYTHING ELSE is secondary. Style points for using theme teams/favourite pokemon/lower tier pokemon are all bonus only, and worth nothing if the battler can't win with it. Who cares if there's more pokemon in the world than the standard? I would use bog-standard without hesitation if I deem that they let me win easier, instead of using an alternative set/pokemon that would not help me win easier. (I would, however, use non-standard if I feel that they are more useful to me than bog standards.) Why would I care about the metagame not changing, if a changing metagame doesn't help me win? Standards are standards because they proved themselves to be useful in a general variety of situations - useful as in they help the user win. The only time non-standards should be used is if they help the user better than the standard sets, which don't happen all that often.
  25. Ken Sical Ifreet

    Ken Sical Ifreet

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2009
    Messages:
    55
    here is the whole thing I am trying to convey with it. This trait is probably one of my biggest banes here on Smogon in reference to competitive battling. I am dead serious (as some other probably are) about being as original as can. If I can use a different move set that does not use any of the moves listed in the Strategy Dex, I will try to make it work. If I can use the same move set with a weaker Pokemon that I think maybe has a better ability, I'll go for it.

    When you want to be competitive, originality is as much of a bane as it is a gift.

    ...I think I better stop before I go on a full blown tangeant that will probably go nowhere.

    Cheers.[/QUOTE]
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