1. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  2. Click here to ensure that you never miss a new SmogonU video upload!

Gen 5 The RU Viability Ranking Thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Molk, Oct 5, 2012.

  1. Hot N Cold

    Hot N Cold
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2011
    Messages:
    1,453
    I'm thinking about Emboar, should be move to A-Rank. When you check Emboar seems outclassed by Entei like good fire mon, while has a lot of qualities than Entei like non-weak Stealth Rock, double STAB, higher Atk, utility ability in any set, can handle more easily with defensive teams because Wild Charge to beat bulky waters (Qwiflish, Poliwrath, Slowking).

    Just in general, is very good; can check different threats on offensive teams with the right set like Escavalier, Durant, hail teams, with the Choice Scarf set can check very well Dark types, more defensive teams oriented, etc. Definitely if Cresselia get banned, should be A-rank for sure, in my opinion.
  2. Nails

    Nails Nuke the Weebs
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a defending World Cup of Pokemon champion

    Joined:
    May 14, 2010
    Messages:
    2,414
    cinccino up to A, it ohkoes crap tons of pokes with cb and outspeeds everything not named sceptile accelgor or aerodactyl

    kabutops down to A, it's not as good anymore. doesn't belong in the same conversation as cressy or slowking or sceptile.

    aerodactyl up to A it's at least as good as smeargle and zangoose. but they probably don't belong in A tbh.

    lanturn down to B, grasses shit on it, it's weak, it's pretty bulky but no recovery and fucked over by residual damage.

    moltres down to A if cressy sticks around but it probably won't so meh it's really good but sr sucks idklol
  3. Molk

    Molk Godlike Usmash
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    4,177
    Okay, its been a little bit so i guess its proposed changes time! These are the current proposed changes:

    Gabite up From Untested Rank ------> D rank
    Eelektross up from Untested Rank ------> C rank
    Kabutops down from S rank ------> A rank
    Jynx up from B rank ------> A rank
    adding Vanilluxe to untested rank
    Emboar up from B rank ------> A rank
    Lanturn down from A rank ------> B rank
    Cinccino up from B rank ------> A rank
    Aerodactyl up from B rank ------> A rank


    Ive got to say, im pretty indifferent to almost all of these changes x_x, there are only a few changes that i have an opinion on this time around haha.

    Gabite has had his rank a long time coming (hes been in untested ever since this thread was created in the first place). I already mentioned most of Gabite's positive traits and flaws in my first post, but i will repeat them here. Gabite is the fastest Dragon-Type available in RU, giving it a small advantage over the slower dragons like Fraxure and Druddigon, Gabite also has access to STAB EQ, which is very useful against the various Steel-types that may come in and try to wall Gabite's Outrages, as well as giving it a useful tool to revenge kill Nidoqueen with (more on this later!). Gabite's secondary ground typing helps it out in many other ways too, it provides gabite to a resistance to Stealth Rock, making it slightly easier to switch it in and out, Gabite's Ground typing gives it an immunity to Thunder Wave as well, which can really come in handy when trying to switch in. Gabite has the ability to soft check Nidoqueen thanks to its typing, being immune to tbolt, resisting Flamethrower and Sludge Wave, and OHKOing her with Earthquake in return, but it still has to fear Earth Power as its still quite frail, especially without eviolite. Overall while i think Gabite has quite a few notable flaws such as fraility, competition, and a slight lack of power, i feel that it deserves D rank or even low C rank on the viability rankings due to its many positive qualities.

    I agree with Dittocrow and Nails about Kabutops, while it is arguably the best Rapid Spinner in the tier, as well as a threatening Sweeper and niche check to several Pokemon such as Entei, it simply isnt S rank material anymore. As Nails said, Kabutops is still very good, and is surely something to watch out for when building a team, but it isnt quite as threatening as the other S rank Pokemon such as Cresselia, Nidoqueen, Sceptile, and Entei. At this point i feel its more along the lines of an A rank pokemon such as Sigilyph, Tauros, or Lilligant, and should be treated as so.

    I havent used Eelektross myself, but i was the one who suggested it to people like SuperJOCKE and DittoCrow after a bit of theorymon, who seemed to really like it and use it well. Its a pretty cool mon, and its a great offensive pivot with its good bulk, lack of type weaknesses, levitate, and slow Volt Switch. Eelektross has the power and coverage to threaten Pokemon that Lanturn could never hope to beat like Escavalier and Quagsire, Eelektross is also capable of running other sets such as a Choice Band set or even a Coil Set, and i would love to test those in the future, at the moment i think C rank is fine for everyone's favorite eel.
  4. Worldtour

    Worldtour aka Swamp-Rocket
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,474
    I think Sigilyph should be moved down to B-tier.

    Sigilyph mainly has two sets which imo aren't really all that effective in the metagame. Due to the ubiquity of Cresselia, and other issues, the Calm Mind set I really don't find to be very powerful (or offensive, which loses to Cresselia easier thanks to Thunder Wave + Ice Beam being a jerk, and it can be set-up fodder). While Sigilyph is pretty fast and powerful, sometimes I just don't feel like it doesn't have enough speed, since it gets outsped by some dangerous Pokemon like Manectric, Archeops, and Typhlosion, which can do a lot of damage to it. Its bulk is decent but it isn't enough to take hits from these Pokemon, and some powerful physical moves can easily power through it. The Cosmic Power set is pretty luck based as everyone knows.

    Another problem is it doesn't have that many powerful moves. A 90 BP move coming off of 103 Special Attack isn't that powerful when compared to the rest of the tier. Also, 72/80/80 bulk isn't that outstanding and it tends to get KOed somewhat easily. For example, while it can 2HKO Entei (and outspeed it since it is Timid), Entei easily OHKOs it back with Flare Blitz and also gets a 2HKO with a Banded Extreemespeed! Durant does in fact outspeed it, and with a Life Orbed X-Scissor it OHKOs Sigilyph 68.75% of the time. Its defesnive typing is pretty bad in general - it is weak to Rock-type moves (hi Aerodactyl and Kabutops), Dark-type moves (hi Drapion/Absol/Spiritomb), Electric-type moves (all the Rotoms, Manectric, and Galvantula), Ice-type moves (Blizzspammers), and Ghost moves while leaving it only with a Ground immunity (which makes it good at beating Nidoqueen but Cress is better at that), a Fighting resistance (the moves are getting uncommon), and a Grass-resistance (which is alright).

    I just feel like there are better options for Special attackers out there, and as a Psychic-type Pokemon I feel like Cresselia does what I need better, and really the ability to take down Fighting-types just isn't what it used to be since they are getting pretty dang uncommon. Without Cresselia idk about its tiering but for now I see it as a B-tier Pokemon. It is pretty good, since it can be a decent Special Attacker and it can't be worn down by Hail or Life Orb recoil, but I think it is a bit outclassed for right now.
  5. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest It's Showtime! Are you ready?
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,787
    Yeah, Gabite could fit well into D or even low C-Rank, I agree. It's got great STAB's that hit a good portion of the tier for either neutral or super effective damage. Though it has a middling Attack stat, no DD, and faces much competition from Fraxure and Druddigon.

    Eelektross for C-Rank or even B. It's a great Pokemon-it has Levitate, essentially providing no weaknesses, and decent bulk plus great offensive stats. A slow Volt Switch allows a nice free switch in into a dangerous yet frail Pokemon like Zangoose or Swellow. Specs set is pretty boss, can hurt a lot of shit. Quaggy dies to Giga Drain while Esca is roasted by Flamethrower. Coil seems cool, haven't tried it. Though yeah, it's great.

    Yes, Kabutops is very important to this meta, but it's not up to par with other S-Rankers like Nidoqueen and Sceptile. It's got a shit typing defensively, cursing it with weaknesses to Fighting, Grass, and Ground. It's the best spinner, and with SD it can be threatening and all, but seriously, it's Speed is disappointing, and most of all, it's a bad match-up for the mighty-as-fuck Ferroseed. Yeah, I agree with putting it in A-Rank. Kabutops isn't that good-Grass attacks kill it hard.

    I have no opinion on Jynx...

    Hmm, I'll try Vanilluxe for a bit and come back and see.

    Yes, Emboar for A-Rank. Emboar is a great Pokemon- it's CB set can OHKO or 2HKO practically everything in the tier-not even Tangrowth or Steelix stand any chance against this thing. It stands out from Entei with its access to STAB Superpower and a coverage move in Wild Charge, which allows it to deal with Water-types. The Choice Scarf set is a decent revenge killer-it can hurt things for considerable damage, so it can run Scarf effectively. Yeah, Emboar for A-Rank.

    Lanturn seriously isn't the best thing ever. It's an awesome bulky Water-but it's hurt badly by its lack of reliable recovery and the fact that it's a weakling offensively. B-rank.

    Yes, put Cinccino in A-Rank. This adorable thing is really powerful with STAB Tail Slap, which allows it to smash Subs, and it can pick off shit as long as Ghost and Steel-types are out of the way. U-Turn also allows it to scout, so it can keep momentum intact. Not to mention King's Rock Cinccino is annoying as fuck. A-Rank for sure.

    Aero is good. It still makes for a great suicide lead, and can go for quick SR very well. It also has decent offensive prowess. A-Rank.

    With all my arguments aside, I'd like to propose putting E-Vire in E-Rank. E-Vire is really fucking awful-it can't even OHKO Roselia with Ice Punch! E-Vire simply cannot hit hard enough-its attacks are way too weak to use its offensive stats well. The standard mixed set is incredibly subpar-Tangrowth barely survives its Flamethrower, and Steelix can just smash it with EQ. Sandslash can too. And Slowking can survive its Wild Charge. That's pretty bad. Its physical set is also mediocre as hell and fails to accomplish anything. Tangrowth and Steelix laugh at how weak E-Vire is all day long. It's weak attacks cannot OHKO shit at all, and it has low defenses. Also, Motor Drive is a highly impractical gimmick that is too situational to work. Team Preview won't allow it. E-Vire is so horrible it deserves E-Rank.
  6. Worldtour

    Worldtour aka Swamp-Rocket
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,474
    You're missing the whole point of Electivire as I can tell in this post. Yes, he misses out on a lot of KOs, but there is almost nothing (like Cresselia and some physical walls like Regirock) that can avoid a 2HKO from Electivire. Electivire is made to clean up weakened teams or break down walls. It doesn't KO a lot of Pokemon, but you will notice that it comes awfully close to a lot of OHKOs. Put it this way - many of the KOs that it misses out on are easily fixed with just a layer of Stealth Rock or a layer of Spikes, sometimes both, all thoe Pokemon are cleanly OHKOed by Electrivire.

    Also, sometimes, it is impossible to avoid using an Electric-type move. Lets just say that you come in contact with a Bulky Water like Slowking, and you have Manectric. You've already Switcharooed away your Choice Scarf because it is late-game or mid-game. The opponent has an Electivire on his team. Are you going to use Hidden Power Grass on the Slowking? Probably not, considering that you're going to lot do anything in that case. Or what if Volt Switch is a factor. If you can predict right, Electivire can either stop the momentum or just absorb the STAB or coverage move.

    Really though, just saying that Electivire misses out on a lot of KOs just doesn't do justice. That isn't how Electivire functions. In fact, the fact that you are able to destroy some common cores with some hazards up, such as Tangrowth + Slowking, or just mess up physical walls like Steelix with Flamethrower, is pretty darn good. Even then, in reality, a 10% health Steelix is pretty much a dead Steelix unless you are using Rock-type moves. Even though it can't OHKO some defensive Pokemon (I mean really what OHKOs Slowking), some offensive Pokemon just cannot handle Electivire and get OHKOed, such as Manectric, Kabutops (which it outspeeds), Moltres (which it outspeeds), and Sceptile, - it can do quite a bit of damage, but if you are using it early game you are just asking yourself to "play with 5 Pokemon," so to speak, but that is why its D-tier at the moment, right? Absorbing the Electric-type move is hard (very hard), but once it gets that boost, a weakened team is pretty much hopeless. Cresselia really holds it back since it will never die, but screw Cresselia - it makes everything unviable in my opinion. I would argue that it is C-Tier worthy without Cresselia but that's for when it leaves.
  7. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest It's Showtime! Are you ready?
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,787
    So Cress got banned. With that, I'd like to make a few proposals.

    Remove Cress, of course, and replace its mention in the explanation with Uxie.

    Here are what I'd like to propose:

    Uxie up to S-Rank.

    With Cress gone, it's back to old times for this thing. Uxie was a meta defining Pokemon before Cress, and now that Cress is gone, he can return to that status. Uxie is THE support Pokemon in the tier, and he can do this well thanks to his immense bulk. He's got Stealth Rock to lay the hazard, as well as T-Wave to cripple opponents, which is very helpful for the team. U-Turn allows him to keep momentum intact, of course. Or Memento to allow a setup sweeper who is typically frail to set up. CM is decent as well, and he can hit decently hard, which also patches up for the fact that he has low attacking stats. Yeah, he's got no competition from Cresselia anymore, and should return to S-Rank, where he belongs.

    The other one:

    Mesprit up to B-Rank.

    Seems odd that I'm saying this, but as the writer of her updated analysis I'm going to give in the point here. Mesprit is one of the most diverse mons in the RU tier-she has 8 different viable sets that all can be run effectively-SR, Band, Specs, Scarf, Offensive CM, SubCM, TR, and Weather Support. Mesprit makes for a great Stealth Rock lead, and with her offensive prowess she stands out from Uxie in this role. While Mesprit may not exactly guarantee that SR will not be spun, she has a fighting chance against some of the spinners, namely Cryo, 'Tops, Shitmonchan (who is common after all), and Shitslash (who is popular for no apparent reason). And her offensive stats also allow for Choice sets, either as a hard hitter or a revenge killer. U-Turn allows her to stand out in CB and Scarf. And Mesprit is also literally the only Psychic-type in the tier besides Gardy who can effectively run Specs. And also, TR could be run effectively thanks to great coverage and Healing Wish, and same with Weather support; Mesprit can take advantage of rain with Thunder or help sun teams with Ice Beam. Yeah, sorry if this is getting very wordy, but Mesprit is easily VERY diverse in what she can do and her niches are enough so that IMO she deserves B-Rank.

    We should also add Musharna to the rankings. I don't know where, but Mushy should be on the rankings because it's pretty good in RU. Especially with Cress finally gone.
  8. Molk

    Molk Godlike Usmash
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    4,177
    So uh, its been a week since i posted the proposed changes but imo there hasnt been enough discussion to warrant moving all the pokemon, so ill just move all the changes everyone agrees on right now.

    I have moved Kabutops from S rank -------> A rank
    I have moved Gabite from Untested --------> D rank
    I have moved Eelektross from Untested ------> C rank
    I have removed Cresselia entirely because it is a broken nigga
    I have added Vanilluxe to Untested

    I would like to suggest a change of my own by the way, i would suggest adding Haunter to untested, it looks pretty mediocre to bad on paper being a frail NFE at all, but in theory it seems like it could perform pretty well. It recieves some competition from normal rotom but it makes up for it with the ability to speed tie with Uxie and Drapion, a shitton more special attack, Disable, and Destiny Bond. Subdisable haunter has the potential to be a thorn in the side of many teams in the RU tier when played correctly, forcing tons of switches by disabling the opponents ways of actually hurting haunter, and an offensive subsplit set doesnt look too shabby either. Hell haunter could even run an effective choice scarf set with its high Special Attack, good speed, excellent coverage, and emergency panic button in Destiny Bond, i actually havent used Haunter myself, but on paper it seems like a Solid C rank or even a B rank, imo. Has anyone used/have thoughts about haunter? If so, feel free to post them here!

    Ive also been thinking for a little bit, and i would be okay with moving Aerodactyl to A rank, despite being mostly indifferent. Aerodactyl comes equipped with a blazing base 130 Speed stat, allowing it to outpace the majority of the tier with little effort, this speed, combined with its mostly unique Rock/Flying typing gives Aerodactyl the ability to function as an offensive check to many Pokemon in the RU tier, most notably Moltres. the LO Roost Aerodactyl set is pretty good, and while i personally dislike the focus sash set, theres no denying that it can be quite the pain early game, fully stopping Smeargle and all. Im still not 100% sure yet on Aero, but i think its good enough to be placed in A rank, thoughts?

    Oh shit forgot, yeah Scraftyisthebest i would be happy to move Mesprit up to B rank and readd Musharna, need some more opinions though :>.
  9. Yonko7

    Yonko7 Guns make you stupid. Duct tape makes you smart.
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2012
    Messages:
    678
    I agree with the Haunter proposal.

    Haunter has a few advantages that give it its place on many offensively oriented teams. The other prominent in RU: Misdreavus, Rotom, and Spiritomb. Misdreavus sees better use on slower teams. Spiritomb is the difficult to compare to Haunter as they have nothing in common besides their Ghost-typing. Rotom and Haunter are very similar, but as mentioned Haunter has the Speed and Special Attack that Rotom lacks. Also a lower base HP [45] means that a SubSplit set would be even more damaging to the opponent. I think Haunter is solid C tier, thanks to its sheer power to cause grief. SubDisable combined with hazards will quickly wear down anything besides Clefable, because most Pokemon only have one attack that hits Haunter.
  10. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2009
    Messages:
    3,565
    Alright so I'm gonna post about Charizard and why it certainly doesn't deserve D rank down with terrible Pokemon such as Alomomola, Hitmonchan and Stoutland (really guys -.-)

    First and foremost, I'd like to compare Charizard to the top tier Pokemon Moltres. Seriously, just how different are they from one another? Moltres has more initial power and Hurricane (which 2HKOs Slowking... if it hits. And we all know how often that happens). Do you think that Charizard is unable to do this? It does BETTER than Moltres against Slowking. Against the defensive variant, SolarBeam does 66.15 - 78.37% damage. The most common scenario is that Slowking comes in on Charizard as it sets up Sunny Day (or if it's already set up then Slowking doesn't stand a chance, as Charizard can simply annihilate it with a combo of Fire Blast + SolarBeam). SolarBeam has a good chance to KO Slowking with some entry hazards and a little prior damage (OK, not so easy due to Regenerator), but Sunny Day also weakens the power of Slowking's STAB Water moves, so 1 on 1, Charizard will beat Slowking, which is apparently Moltres' claim to fame. I've also used Grass Gem Charizard to great success (seriously try this bad boy out), as it's a brilliant lure for Slowking and other bulky Waters such as Lanturn, as it deals 99.74 - 117.55% to our defensive Slowking pal, and 115.21 - 135.66% to Lanturn. After a team's bulky Water is eliminated, Charizard is free to spam Fire Blast until it dies. It also opens up huge wholes in the opponent's team that stuff like Entei, Aerodactyl, Feraligatr (basically anything that loves bulky waters gone) can take advantage of.

    Next, I'd like to discuss Charizard's lovely Speed tier. Moltres is outsped by numerous Pokemon that can threaten the OHKO and make it eat SR damage again such as Rotom, Electrivire, Sawsbuck, Haunter, Jynx, Sigilyph and Uxie. Charizard fears none of these and simply blasts them away. The fact that it got Roost to use in B2W2 really helps it with its previous longevity issues as well, and can remove Charizard's Electric weakness for a turn if need be.

    Since Charizard is a Pokemon commonly used with Sunny Day, it's natural that it's also an extremely potent threat against Hail teams! No Ice-type in their right mind would come in on Charizard, and god help Snover if he tries to remove Charizard's sun by switching in. If used on a proper Sunny Day team with possibly support from Regirock, a simple Scarf Charizard doesn't even need to worry about opposing common scarved Pokemon on Hail teams such as Frotom and Glaceon, as it will outspeed and most likely OHKO them all.

    So yes, while Charizard have its obvious flaws (really only that crippling SR weakness and the fact that Solar Power leaches its HP) I think the facts speak for themselves. Charizard is a Pokemon that requires a fair amount of support, but give it to him and he really won't let you down.

    Here's the set I'd recommend you all to try out:


    [​IMG]
    Charizard (F) @ Grass Gem
    Trait: Solar Power
    EVs: 252 Spd / 4 Def / 252 SAtk
    Timid Nature
    - Fire Blast
    - SolarBeam
    - Roost
    - Sunny Day

    EDIT: oh yeah there's also that cool SD Flying Gem acrobatics set that OHKOs Slowking at +2. Can't forget that. More on that later though I'm tired :P
  11. Kenny

    Kenny don't expect me

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2012
    Messages:
    475
    Though I am not as experienced, I would have to agree with Cherub. Charizard obviously isn't a top tier pokemon, but it certainly deserves more than Alomomola, Dusknoir, etc. Charizard is the butt of many jokes when regarding it's usage in OU and Ubers, but it certainly is no joke in RU. Choice Specs or Scarf are great choices (lol) for the nostalgic dragon (or wanna be dragon, i guess).

    [​IMG]
    i am dargon fear (Charizard) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Solar Power
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
    Timid Nature
    - Air Slash
    - Fire Blast
    - Focus Blast
    - SolarBeam
    317 SpAtk // 328 Speed
    475.5 SpAtk in Sun with Solar Power // 492 Speed with Choice Scarf

    Charizard is an absolute powerhouse under the sun, with unresisted coverage, this beefcake has power and speed over Moltres. No pokemon that isn't boosted or wielding an opposing scarf, outspeeding threats like unboosted Kabutops, Scarfed Rotom-Frost, +1 Lilligant, Scarf Pinsir, and +1 Feraligatr, among others. Scarfzard also manages to 2HKO Slowking under the sun, so even without a power boosting nature, it still happens to pack quite a punch.

    [​IMG]
    dargon fear agen (Charizard) @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Solar Power
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Air Slash
    - Fire Blast
    - Focus Blast
    - SolarBeam
    317 SpAtk // 328 Speed
    713.25 SpAtk in Sun with Solar Power and Choice Specs // 328 Speed with Timid Nature

    Does this look familiar? It should! It's the same exact set as Scarfzard, only it's rockin' a pair of shades. Choice Specs boosts it's Special Attack to the massive number of 713! Not much can survive an onslaught from Specszard's attacks, almost the whole tier being OHKO'd. The only commonly used RU mon that can hold on to dear life after an assault from Specszard is Munchlax, only holding on with 20-30% of its HP. Specszard will punch huge holes through your team if you don't be careful.

    Now I've talked up Charizard quite a bit, but it's got a lot of hefty flaws, more so than other pokemon. Charizard obviously has a glaring flaw in that it is 4x weak to stealth rocks. It is also weak to Aqua Jet, so it can't stay in on a Feraligatr or Kabutops. Also, Specszard isn't that fast and is outspeeded by a few threats including Manetric, Galvantula, +1 +Speed Crawdaunt, Aerodactyl, and Scarf Primeape. Another gaping hole in the strategy is the sheer amount of support it needs, like Rapid Spin, Sun, and pokemon to take out all of its threats, depending on the choice item you use. These flaws still don't stop Charizard from being a solid pokemon in RU.

    Verdict (aka tl;dr): Charizard definitely deserves more than Alomomola, Dusknoir, Stoutland, and Sandslash. Charizard should be C rank, I believe, considering the power it has with sun teams which are really good in my experience in RU.
  12. Pocket

    Pocket be an upgraded me
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,883
    Wow, Cherub Agent, awesome post ;D I really got to try that Grass Gem set. SD Acrobatics also sounded really gimmicky to me until you just revealed that it OHKOs Slowking :o (that's with Flying Gem boost, though).

    My personal favorite is Scarf Zard, though, since it can sweep much easier, preventing otherwise faster threats like Archeops or Scarf Rotom-W from forcing it out. However if you got another Sweeper in the wings, I'd definitely go with Cherub Agent's set ;d

    Feranfell, Air Slash is pretty useless coverage for Charizard who can bulldoze through most Pokemon with its Sun-enhanced Fire STAB or SolarBeam. You're much better off packing a second Fire type move like Flamethrower than Air Slash.
  13. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2009
    Messages:
    3,565
    Thank you Pocket <3

    Anyway, I said I was going to post my experiences with the SD Charizard set, so here I go. I'd also just like to emphasize how many viable sets Charizard has, and how it's difficult to determine which one in Team Preview, making it an unpredictable Pokemon. I'm mainly talking about the Sunny Day set, the Choice Scarf one, and this physically based Charizard. They all have different ways of being dealt with; the Sunny Day set is nigh unwallable, the Scarf set laughs at Pokemon attempting to revenge kill it, and the physical set is an excellent lure to the few Pokemon that do manage to beat the Sunny Day set, such as Flareon, Munchlax, Altaria, and Dragonair. These Pokemon are all uncommon though, but SD Charizard is an excellent wallbreaker in its own right, only really failing to get through bulky Rock-types such as Regirock and Rhydon. Here's what I used:

    [​IMG]
    Charizard (F) @ Flying Gem
    Trait: Blaze
    EVs: 252 Spd / 4 Def / 252 Atk
    Naive / Jolly Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Acrobatics
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Blast / Flare Blitz

    As I previously mentioned, the only Pokemon in the tier that can avoid the 2HKO from this set are Regirock, Rhydon and Quagsire. The following calcs are assuming a neutral nature on Charizard with max Atk investment at +2 with a Flying Gem.

    Regirock (RU Tank) Earthquake 40.1 - 47.8% Flare Blitz 27.19 - 32.14%
    Quagsire (RU Physical Wall) Acrobatics 40.6 - 48.22% Fire Blast 33.5 - 39.59%
    Rhydon (RU Tank) Earthquake 49.86 - 58.98% Flare Blitz 33.51 - 39.41%

    Keep in mind however that Charizard can actually 2HKO Rhydon if Stealth Rock is up. It's very unlikely though, as the opponent would have to let Charizard set up and switch Rhydon in on an EQ... which is actually possible as the vast majority of people expect Charizard to run a special set with a Grass-type move. However, let's take a look at some more impressive calcs shall we?

    +2 252 Atk Flying Gem Charizard Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 494-584 (122.27 - 144.55%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 252 Atk Flying Gem Charizard Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 144 Def Slowking: 408-481 (103.81 - 122.39%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 252 Atk Flying Gem Charizard Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Uxie: 319-376 (90.11 - 106.21%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
    +2 252 Atk Flying Gem Charizard Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 76 HP / 200 Def Eviolite Munchlax: 381-448 (88.6 - 104.18%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO
    +2 252 Atk Flying Gem Charizard Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 596-704 (155.2 - 183.33%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 252 Atk Flying Gem Charizard Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 273-322 (89.8 - 105.92%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
    +2 252 Atk Flying Gem Charizard Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Regice: 400-472 (110.19 - 130.02%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 252 Atk Charizard Earthquake vs. 40 HP / 252 Def Lanturn: 356-420 (88.77 - 104.73%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO
    +2 252 Atk Charizard Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Flareon: 318-376 (95.2 - 112.57%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
    0 SpA Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Steelix: 374-444 (105.64 - 125.42%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    0 SpA Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 300-352 (102.73 - 120.54%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    0 SpA Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tangrowth: 482-570 (119.3 - 141.08%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    As you can see, Uxie, Munchlax, Spiritomb, Lanturn and Flareon (I just did physically defensive for the lolz, even if it's never used) are all OHKOd with Stealth Rock support, and Charizard doesn't even need the Flying Gem to OHKO Poliwrath. Cresselia may have been able to stand up to Charizard, but alas... Oh yeah regarding the last slot. Fire Blast is generally the preferred option in my opinion, as it gives you guaranteed OHKOs against the big walls that are weak to it even without investment. I mean, Flare Blitz does give you the same KOs, but why take unneccessary recoil damage when you can just kill them with Fire Blast? You can even run Fire Blast with a Jolly nature and still get the guaranteed OHKOs with SR damage. Now that I think about it, that may actually be the better option as Charizard has decent SpD that doesn't need cutting into... give me your opinion on this matter.

    Just make sure that Scarfers and faster Pokemon such as Aerodactyl are gone before you attempt to sweep with Charizard. If you do this everyone's favourite Pokemon (/me glare) won't let you down.
  14. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest It's Showtime! Are you ready?
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,787
    Cherub, Feran, and Pocket pretty much say everything on my opinion on Zard. Charizard is no pushover in RU and should definitely have a C-Rank placement.

    That aside, I'd like to propose adding Gardevoir to Untested. It might not seem like it, but Gardy actually has quite a bit going for it in RU. It has that awesome 125 Special Attack, so it can be one of the few viable specially offensive Psychic-types in RU. I run Scarf Gardy and it proved to be quite effective. Also, it boasts a great movepool, so it could be very good with what it's got. It can go specially defensive, or set up Dual Screens. And of course, it's got offensive capabilities, allowing it to run Specs, Scarf, etc, despite its competition. Either way though, Gardevoir has some shit going for it in the RU tier (despite being NU, it's decent in RU), and should definitely see a ranking somewhere. (Note: I've used Gardy before, but I can't decide on an actual ranking for it quite yet).
  15. Molk

    Molk Godlike Usmash
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    4,177
    Okay, i guess i should move some stuff around, so the following changes have been made

    I have moved Charizard from D rank ----> C Rank
    I have added Haunter to Untested

    Also, here are the new proposed changes for the latter part of this round

    Jynx up from B rank ------> A rank
    Emboar up from B rank ------> A rank
    Lanturn down from A rank ------> B rank
    Cinccino up from B rank ------> A rank
    Aerodactyl up from B rank ------> A rank
    Uxie up from A rank -----> S rank
    Mesprit up from C rank -----> B rank
    Sigilyph down from A rank -----> B rank
    adding Gardevoir to untested
    adding Musharna to untested

    Once again im pretty indifferent to most of these changes, one thing i certainly agree with, though is adding Gardevior to untested, its always been a pretty decent Pokemon in RU, and it just happens to be a great offensive check to Nidoqueen, taking any of its attacks at least once, copying its Sheer Force ability, and using it to her advantage by getting boosts on Psychic, Thunderbolt, and Focus Blast among other things. Gardevoir's trace also helps out against some of the weather teams that have been popping up lately by giving Gardevior Swift Swim, Chlorophyll, Solar Power, and Ice Body, among other things. Gardevoir has an absolutely ridiculous support movepool as well, getting almost every support move in the game iirc, it can run things like Wish Support and Dual Screens effectively due to this. I would personally say that Gardevior is somewhere around C or B rank, but other opinions are welcome.

    I also agree with adding Mesprit to B rank, the main reason it was moved down to C rank in the first place was that it got a ton of competition from Cresselia, who could perform many of mesprits sets better than mesprit could ever dream to, but now that Cress is banned its reasonable to move Mesprit back imo.

    I also strongly disagree with moving sigi down, but forums are lagging like hell for me so ill post reasoning later
  16. sfgiantsfanmike

    sfgiantsfanmike

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    29
  17. sickweare

    sickweare

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2012
    Messages:
    225
    Definitely agreeing with Uxie in S-rank. IMO it is a superior option to Cress anyways, but she's out so what does it matter.

    I'd recommend adding Camerupt to the untested group as it is a great anti-hail Pokemon who can run SpD sets very well.

    I'll add input to the Carracosta "untested" rank. IMO it deserves a C-rank. It is an awesome sweeper with a lot of potential, but it does need some support. It has an outstanding defense stat along with a great ability in Solid Rock. My favorite set to use for him is the Salac berry set to lure threats like eelektross who will attack with Wild Charge/Thunderbolt (aka not enough to kill carracosta), he will eat the salac and in his turn set up shell smash and there you go. This is just my experience of course though

    Finally, I want to back up Aerodactyl to A-rank. It has great speed, outspeeded by accelgor. It has the ability to run taunt+roost sets or choice banded sets and is an absolutely awesome partner to Lilligant and Leavanny and other offensive grass types. For this, Aerodactyl deserves the move up.
  18. Molk

    Molk Godlike Usmash
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    4,177
    Its also interesting to note that Uxie isnt limited to support/defensive options, Uxie is perfectly capable of running a subCM set that uses Uxie's incredible bulk and excellent Speed stat to threaten offensive and defensive teams alike. Ive been using SubCM uxie ever since Double01 recommended it to me, and its has performed way beyond expectations for me, turning a plethora of defensive Pokemon such as Slowking, Lanturn, Tangrowth, and Poliwrath into set up fodder, while also getting a free boost off of some offensive Pokemon such as Nidoqueen. Thanks to Uxie's excellent special bulk, it usually only takes one or possibly two boosts to make him impenetrable from the Special side, Calm Mind also boosts Uxie's mediocre Special Attack stat to usable levels, allowing it to sweep the opposing team. Uxie's excellent bulk makes it pretty hard to revenge kill as well, none of the common priority Attacks are going to be doing much to it (except Sucker Punch, which can be played around by using Substitute). Most of the Choice Scarf Pokemon are going to struggle to revenge kill uxie as well, the scarf electrics dont stand a chance of KOing it after even one boost, Scarf typhlosion is bad and also struggles to break Uxie after one boost, Emboar is unable to OHKO Uxie and takes a super effective STAB Psyshock in return, and the rare Ditto is nullified by substitute and can be worn down by Psyshock otherwise. Im still not 100% sure if Uxie should be S rank, but its combination of stats, huge support movepool, and ability to sweep makes it top A rank at least imo.

    Btw, i tested Aerodactyl out a bit more, and i have to say that i withdraw my support for moving it up a rank, sure its a decent Pokemon, but it simply didnt seem like an A rank Pokemon to me. the Focus Sash set is actually pretty damn bad, and while the Life Orb roost set is decent, it just didnt seem to have enough raw power to me, often missing out on OHKOs against some of the bulkier offensive Pokemon, and being easily walled by common defensive threats such as Steelix, Tangrowth, and Poliwrath. Not to mention that Stone Edge is a bitch and never hits when you really need it, i would say that Aerodactyl is a solid B rank pokemon at the moment, and i dont see that changing soon.
  19. Celever

    Celever

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2012
    Messages:
    3,365
    I'm wandering, why is Entei S? I haven't used him at all - god knows I've tried - and practically every Entei I've come across were pretty damn bad! His stats aren't anything overly special - he's taken down easily by any water type - bulky or not (I have a slowking and crawdaunt on my team, and the 85 defense is pretty rubbish compared to Crawdaunt's 120 Atk, never mind SE, adaptability, STAB damage, life orb) and with the fairly bad defense it's: 132.6% - 156.3%
    Not to mention my lilligant has hidden power rock, that always KOs. And no, I don't use stealth rock, he just has bad defense generally! I admit, the high attack and high speed make it seem like a choice band set might look tasty, but seriously, what does he have? Iron head is rubbish in terms of coverage, flare blitz and stone edge look nice together, but that's hardly S tier material. I was expecting him in B, but I suppose A will do.
    Ranger Mike and wishes like this.
  20. Fotographic

    Fotographic

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2012
    Messages:
    18
    Because of his high Attack and Speed, immunity to burn, and access to priority to pick off faster threats. He also has nice 115/85/75 bulk. I use the SubCM set and it's very good. It's very easy to fit Entei onto any time looking for a Fire-type, as he can fulfill many roles.
  21. DittoCrow

    DittoCrow
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2010
    Messages:
    1,536
    I think that Lanturn should be moved down to B Rank. Sure it counters Moltres, but if the Moltres user is smart, they can wear it down easily with Hidden Power Grass. With the current Lanturn spread, HP Grass does 43.39 - 51.12%. Lanturn will have to rely on Protect or Rest if it wants to recover at all, leaving it easily open to being set up on. Even against hail teams, something like SubProtect Glaceon can either PP stall Scald or wear it down with Toxic / Hidden Power Ground. Lanturn is pretty mediocre in this metagame. Overall, it just gets worn down too easily and is not a problem for most teams. B Rank would be perfect: "Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential." Lanturn would need something like Wish support to stay alive or strong teammates in the core.
  22. Molk

    Molk Godlike Usmash
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    4,177
    Yeah, i agree with moving Lanturn down to B rank, ive used it a lot in the past and while it is a cool mon with some awesome options such as Volt Switch, heal bell, and that amazing typing, its lack of reliable recovery is what brings it to its knees. not to mention its complete set up fodder for common threats such as Sceptile and Lilligant, who can come in with near impunity and get off a free substitute/sleep powder/quiver dance ;-;.

    Ill be doing moves when the tier shifts happen btw, for reference :>
  23. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2009
    Messages:
    3,565
    I agree with moving Lanturn down.

    But what I'd really like to discuss here is Braviary, and my reasons for why it shouldn't be an A tier Pokemon. First, I'm gonna talk about its good points. Flying is and always has been a superb offensive typing. Few Pokemon resist it, and the ones that do are either frail enough that they're crippled by a powerful Brave Bird (Manectric, Rotom, etc) or are hit incredibly hard by Superpower, Braviary's excellent coverage move. Rotom is the only Pokemon in the tier to resist this combination, and as I said before, it's low bulk means that it certainly can't take repeated hits. Braviary is also quite bulky with 100/75/75 Defenses, meaning that it can absorb a hit. Roost also helps prolong its longevity. 80 base Speed is decent, and allows it to outspeed most walls.

    The only set that I think is still worth using is the Choice Band set. It possesses absolutely incredible wallbreaking power, and is really great at softening up the opponent's team with U-Turn. RU is one of the easiest tiers to prevent Rock from going up, thanks to awesome spinners in Kabutops and Cryogonal. The only common Pokemon that can avoid the 2HKO from Choice Band Braviary are bulky Rotom, Steelix and Regirock under common battle conditions. Unfortunately, sheer force isn't always enough. While Braviary is almost guaranteed to cripple a Pokemon if it comes in on something slower, it rarely gets a second chance to do so. 80 base Speed, while a good benchmark for wallbreaking, means that it will easily be revenge killed or forced out. And when you're Stealth Rock weak, and having no recovery (I'm still talking about the CB set) being forced out is more or less a death sentence. There are so many common Pokemon that can outspeed and OHKO Braviary: all the Rotom formes, Moltres, Manectric, Aerodactyl... really the list is endless. And this all applies to just the Choice Band set. I feel that all other Braviary sets face either stiff competition or are just not worth using in the current metagame. The infamous SubBU set, which caused quite a splash in NU, doesn't seem that viable to me. One, Hail is really common, and strips Braviary of its Leftovers. Second, basically all Hail teams carry some variant of Frotom, which resists Brave Bird, outspeeds, and OHKOs. Even when not facing a Hail team, there are many other Pokemon in RU that can accomplish this that Braviary didn't need to fear in NU. Rotom-N, Aerodactyl, Klinklang, Manetric, even Elektivire can all absorb a hit and beat Braviary. Aggron can simply Automatize on Braviary and then go to town. Steelix effortlessly walls and can Roar it out. Again, quite a big list, and I'm sure there are some that I've forgotten. The Choice Scarf set is easily my least favourite. While still powerful, I'd much rather have a Choice Scarfer that can actually outspeed other boosted Pokemon. Scarf Braviary fails to outrun +2 Shell Smashers (Gorebyss and Omastar) and cannot reliably revenge kill Carracosta at all due to Solid Rock, or Aqua Jet can kill it after some previous damage. It's also outsped by Pokemon such as Klinklang and Lilligant after a boost.

    So yeah, I'd be much happier if Braviary was a solid B Rank Pokemon. It can excel, but it requires a fair amount of support in order to do so, and more than what would be expected of an A rank Pokemon.
  24. HuntSaboteur

    HuntSaboteur

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2010
    Messages:
    181
    A few things.

    Firstly, the matter of Ninjask. Although I have not actually used the Pokemon, I have come up against it quite frequently and I have to say that it at least deserves B Rank. This is because it basically provides people with an instant way to set up Speed Baton Passes and also ends up being extremely irritating with people basically only being able to hit it every other turn. When you then Baton Pass it to a bulky sweeper (Rhydon, maybe? Move that up to A rank as well for being a physical wall that is also a potent physical sweeper), said sweeper becomes almost unstoppable with enough coverage.

    Secondly, Galvantula. I'm quite shocked that a Pokemon that is basically a faster Moltres with better coverage (and a Thunder that's more accurate than Fire Blast) languishes in B Rank. Although admittedly frail, and not deserving of an immediate S, it should be in the upper echelons of A Rank. Keeping with my aforementioned example of Moltres, with Electric/Bug STAB plus, let's say, Hidden Power Rock for those Fire and Flying weaknesses, Galv can hit 8 types for super-effective damage and not get walled by any, whereas Moltres can only hit 5 (Grass, Ice, Fighting, Bug, and Steel) and is walled by Rock. (And that doesn't take two-type resists into account - see: Lanturn) Admittedly, Moltres has a higher Special Attack, but it seems like that's the only thing that makes it better than Galvantula.

    Don't get me wrong, I like Moltres and it is deserving of its place in the metagame. It's just that Galvantula is equally good.

    While we're on the subject of Moltres, I disagree with Lanturn's moving down. Thanks to the advent of Hail, Lanturn is more important than ever as it resists both Ice types themselves and Ice counters (usually Fire, but it also has STAB which is super effective against Rock, and Fighting isn't that common with the exception of Gallade).
  25. Snowflakes

    Snowflakes Dango Dango Daikazoku
    is a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2012
    Messages:
    439
    "Reserved for Pokemon who are great in the RU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than of those above it that affects how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential."

    it may help with moltres, hail etc. but it's problems with mons which molk has said is those notable flaws that are a problem. it walling a lot of big threats definitely outshines the negative parts of lanturn but to say lanturn has a "few flaws that can be overlooked when compared to their outstanding traits." is a little questionable and B rating seems like a good place for it.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)