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Gen 5 The RU Viability Ranking Thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Molk, Oct 5, 2012.

  1. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest It's Showtime! Are you ready?
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    I agree with the DC and Molk that Low A is pushing it for Klinklang. I'd agree with Top B though; Klinklang is quite a solid Pokemon in general but has some notable flaws that prevent it from being top tier, that being its lacking coverage and 4MSS. It's a great mon, but the lack of coverage is kind of a letdown. It's still a really solid mon though and can sweep when it needs to, making it suitable for Top B.

    Kabutops should really stay in Top A tbh. It is the best spinner in the tier but not one of the best Pokemon overall. While it can spin and beat all of the spinblockers, it is a bit easy to deal with. Sceptile outspeeds it and flat-out murders it with Grass STAB, while Tangrowth and Poliwrath can wall it. It's prepared for a lot, which makes it an A-Rank threat and nothing else.

    Scyther could stay in Low B for reasons stated above tbh.

    EDIT: I honestly think Medicham is fine in Mid B. While it is an excellent cleaner / revenge killer, yeah, it is completely helpless against Psychic- and Ghost-types, which is a pretty big flaw. It is unable to do anything to Uxie while it can cripple it with T-Wave, same with Tomb except with a burn. Medicham needs some teammates to reach its fullest potential, like it absolutely needs Pursuit support to succeed (Absol). I know Hitmonlee does, however, imo Hitmonlee is more threatening than Medicham in general. It's a great mon, but I think Mid B is fine for it.
  2. atomicllamas

    atomicllamas but then what's left of me?
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    Yeah, I agree low A is probably too high for Klinklang, but access to shift gear is so wonderful, its unfortunate that is like one of the three fully evolved mos that doesn't get earthquake (<-- exaggeration).

    I'm also going to agree with ScraftyIsTheBest about tops, its really nice that it can beat most of the ghosts in the tier and spin on them, but it loses to a lot of other things. It makes things like Moltres, Scyther, and Zard a hell of a lot more viable (even though Tres is viable anyways). But staying top A is a good fit for tops.

    I also agree with Medicham staying mid B for reasons above.
  3. Shame That

    Shame That 乇乂ㄒ尺卂ㄒ卄丨匚匚
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    Spiritomb for Low S-Rank

    [​IMG]

    Note: most of what I have to say here will be stuff you guys will already know, but I'm laying it out for the purpose of showing everything Spiritomb does well.

    Why should it be moved up?

    Offensive set(s?) (open)
    Spiritomb is simply equipped with all the right stuff for the current meta. The offensive variant is able to trap and dispose of some of the most dreaded pokemon in the tier, including Slowking, Mesprit, Sigilyph, and most other Psychic-types. It can also get the jump on many faster, frailer opponents with powerful STAB priority attacks, which come with the added bonus of finishing off weakened opponents even with respectable bulk (252+ Atk Choice Band Spiritomb Sucker Punch vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Druddigon: 186-219 (52.54 - 61.86%) -- 98.44% chance to 2HKO). Finally, tricking a Choice Band to a specially based pokemon (or even weaker walls running physical attacks) can ruin a teams synergy and make Spiritomb a far more flexible attacker at the same time, usually granting it Leftovers or Life Orb. It isn't all sunshine here though; Spiritomb is cursed by Steel-types resisting both of its STABs, and it has pretty much no coverage moves. However, the set exists manly to deal with weakened sweepers and Pursuit weak 'mons like Slowking, and it pulls this off with resounding success.


    Defensive set (open)
    The defensive set is probably even more potent; with Will-O-Wisp, Foul Play and RestTalk, Spiritomb can deal with a huge array of physical attackers in the tier. Burns are annoying even for specially based pokemon; for example, Cryogonal hates being burned, as it forces it to constantly recover without recovery from Leftovers to boost its health up every turn. Physical pokemon without Lum Berries are simply shut down by burns too, with high powered nukes like Aggron and Escavalier being reduced to shadows of their former selves should they attempt to switch in and plough through tomb. Foul Play provides a different and equally as helpful approach to disposing of physical attackers, instead shutting down tons of the tiers setup sweepers. Kabutops, Gallade, Feraligatr, Zangoose, SD Sceptile and more are all smacked aside by Foul Play, powering up Spiritomb's attack with their own Swords Dances. Note: If they dance on the switch, Kabutops and Sceptile beat Spiritomb. However, the offensive set can kill Sceptile most of the time after SR and puts Kabutops in a tight situaton thanks to Life Orb damage in top of being hit by priority, so these Pokemon cannot always beat Spiritomb. Finally, RestTalk allows Spiritomb to comfortably absorb Spore and Sleep Powder amongst other status moves while still retaining its basic functions, and these moves are common in RU.


    Typing and Defenses (open)
    With three immunities and 0 weaknesses, as well as STABs on Pursuit, Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch, Spiritomb can be very difficult to kill. Since you can't hit it super effectively, you just have to use a semi-strong neutral attack and pray it will do better than a 3HKO. It is very easy for Spiritomb to switch in and trap or burn an opponent, whilst often taking little or no damage thanks to awesome defensive stats. Seriously, there are very few attackers this defensive beast fears, save mammoth strikes the likes of CB Druddigon Outrage, CB Aggron Head Smash, and CB Entei Flare Blitz... and even CB Drudd Outrage doesn't OHKO! Since Spiritomb has few real counters, outside of less common stuff like Klinklang, there isn't really a question about synergy... It will fit onto your team.


    Spinblocking (open)
    This one is the real seller. With competition the likes of Misdreavus, Golurk and Dusknoir (lol), Spiritomb easily comes out on top, boasting better typing and a better move pool for the role it plays. It doesn't fear status or Pursuit, leaving it safe to switch in willy nilly throughout the game unless the opponent is some crazy powerful attacker like Specs Slowking. Ok, yes, so Spiritomb has some trouble going 1v1 against common spinners. These pokemon are not without their flaws, and that is why they are not all top S-Rank. Still, Cryogonal suffers greatly at the hands of the CB set, whilst Kabutops takes some serious pain from Foul Play thanks to a great Attack stat (but Stone Edge is downright dangerous). All in all though, since spikestacking is extremely effective in RU, Spiritomb is passively one of the best attackers OR walls on your spikes team.


    Stop making such long (open)

    The offensive set can trap or finish off common, dangerous pokemon
    The defensive set is the ultimate answer to physical set-up and most physical attackers
    It has 3 immunities, one resist, no weaknesses and great defensive stats


    My opinions, summed up. I would like to see if other people feel similarly, or if they have cons to address that could hold it back from S-Rank?
  4. Mack the Knife

    Mack the Knife Goodbye Smogon! I may return, I may not!
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    Hey guys I agree on Mag staying where it is. If it was a little faster maybe, but alas it is not enough.
    I nominate Vanilluxe for Top C rank
    [​IMG]
    I seem to be the only one who cares anything about this little guy. He's actually quite underrated. His Toxic stall set is quite good, due to his higher speed than Walrein, and powerful Blizzard. His decent speed with Ice Body can make things very frustrating for the opponent. He does have problems with Steel-types and isn't that fast. These are things that keep him out of Low B rank. Fortunately with team support he can be quite effective. At the very least he's a Mid C. Most battles I've used him in, he's netted me at least one KO. Here's the set I use:

    Vanilluxe @ Leftovers
    Trait: Ice Body
    EVs: 24 HP / 232 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 30 SAtk / 30 SDef
    - Blizzard
    - Protect
    - Substitute
    - Toxic

    What do you guys think?
  5. Molk

    Molk Godlike Usmash
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    Time for updates! remember, if you strongly disagree with any of the changes i made, feel free to oppose.

    i might edit this post with some opinions later =).
  6. ss234

    ss234 bop.

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    Spiritomb should not be low s. It has some p huge flaws-unable to do much back to aggron / durant etc. offensive set faces stiff competition from absol(imo absol is better on offensive teams because giving aggron / klinklang / durant free switch ins is rlly bad) and is slow. Defensive sets are v good, but it still has flaws-no reliable recovery, is hit by all entry hazards, and again still lets aggron / durant in for free-both of which are rlly dangerous for stall teams. Tomb is good, but it's not as good / easy to fit on teams as rotom-c, sceptile or entei for example.

    Also vanilluxe should stay where it is. I cannot think of a good reason to use it over glaceon apart from autotomize, and that set isn't even that good considering having mono-ice as your typing makes it ridiculously hard to set-up. D is fine for vanilluxe imo, since it has a very small niche.
  7. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    Agreeing with Silvershadow on the Vanilluxe and Spiritomb matters. Also, I already stated my opinions on Medicham.

    Anyways. It's Rock-type time!

    I know this has been brought up before, but I'd suggest Rhydon for Low or Mid A-Rank. Rhydon is pretty fucking awesome atm in RU. He is easily one of the best Stealth Rock setters in RU, as he has amazing bulk, and can check a lot of physical threats such as Absol, Entei, and a bunch of others, and can thus easily set up SR. With maximum investment into defense, even Crawdaunt's Waterfall is not OHKOing it. Rhydon is very flexible with his EV's and you can tailor the EV's to your team's needs; hell he can go for a specially defensive EV spread to check things like Galvantula and Manectric! Rhydon also has a great offensive typing, giving it STAB EdgeQuake coverage, and its high Attack also allow it to hit solidly hard. Rhydon is also an amazing wallbreaker with CB thanks to this, and if you're not looking for a tank, you can just use his pure power and coverage to break down walls for days. RP Rhydon is something I've tried as well (along with Golurk), and it's an incredible sweeper thanks to EdgeQuake coverage and high Attack. It's kinda hard to set up, but once you grab the boost, you're golden. In addition, its immunity to Thunder Wave only sweetens the deal. While its weaknesses to Grass and Water are a rather crippling flaws, those are easily patched up with the use of teammates (ahem Roselia), and Rhydon is just a really good Pokemon, and as of now I definitely think he's worthy of A-Rank.

    I'd also suggest Omastar for Top B-Rank. This thing is absolutely phenomenal in the sweeping department. It's not that hard to grab a Smash boost, by coming in on something like Entei or Emboar choice-locked, and once Omastar grabs a boost, it can very easily sweep a team. Between Surf, Ice Beam, and HP Grass, Omastar attains perfect coverage, and with just hazard support alone the whole team is liable to go down. With a Timid nature, not many things can outspeed it (iirc not even Scarf Rotom-C outspeeds it), and it can just destroy everything. Overall Omastar is easily one amazing sweeper in RU and should be Top B imo.
  8. Gary

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    I don't see any reason as to why Mesprit shouldn't be in Mid A-Rank. That thing is incredibly versatile, and it never fails in giving me trouble. The Offensive SR set is always a pain to deal with because it always threatens most of Stealth Rockers that I use, such as Golurk, Rhydon, and Druddigon with Ice Beam. The offensive Calm Mind set is extremely destructive late game, because it's high natural bulk and power makes it quite a pain to deal with. Ever since Mesprit was featured in the next best thing thread, I have been seeing CB Mesprit everywhere, and it's such a pain to deal with. The Specs set has pretty much zero switch-ins as well. I feel like Mesprit is often overlooked by a lot of players, and it shouldn't, because Mesprit is actually really good.
  9. Worldtour

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    Rhydon should stay B. It is currently having a lot of issues regarding being worn down over time. Even though it can survive some impressive attacks they still take a large chunk of Rhydon's health out. Like sure it can survive Crawdaunt's Waterfall with full EVs but you will never actually run full defensive EVs because its a tank, that and its dying pn the next turn anyway. Spikes are also becoming rather ubiquitous and Rhydon really hates Spikes because it has no recovery. Everything has some way to hit Rhydon really hard because if all of its weaknesses, leaving it with more than half the metagame being able to just plow through it. Basically, if Rhydon switches too much, its not going to last long. Rhydon (still) has too many flaws to make it into A rank, Top B is fine.
  10. ss234

    ss234 bop.

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    Honestly, if aggron is A then so should rhydon. Rhydon has rather similar flaws-some very large weaknesses to common attacking types, it's slow-but once it gets in it can do a lot of damage. It is the most physically bulky poke in the game, and it counters loads of relevant mons-including entei, birds, normal types, absol aggron(watch out for cb low kick ofc) and loads of other physical attackers as well by virtue of its ridiculous bulk. CB and rp sets are also very dangerous-the cb set doesn't actually have any 1 counter, while rp is an incredibly potent late game sweeper, and LO rhydon hits like a truck as well, but can change moves obviously. So ye despite rhydon's weaknesses, it's a rlly good mon thanks to excellent STAB's, incredible bulk with eviolite and solid power.

    Edit: It's also far too manly for b.
  11. Mack the Knife

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    Just would like to say thanks for showing me your opinion! Now that I look at it more closely, Vanilluxe should stay where it is.
  12. Oddish is the best

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    I'd like to nominate Vileplume for Top C Rank. Vileplume is actually pretty decent in the current meta as it is the only grass/poison sweeper (par Victreebel) and it boosts pretty decent bulk. It is also nice for being super effective against all regenerator pokemon except for Ammongus which it can still 3HKO. This gives it someone what of a niche in countering common regenerator cores that are common in the meta (Tangrowth+Slowking Ammonguss+Alomomola etc) and she also outspeeds all of them. Furthermore, Vileplume has secondary poison typing which allows it to absorb toxic spikes which really only Quillfish and Ammonguss do in the meta right now. Plumes secondary poison typing also allows it to predict switches into fire types and launch sludge bomb which deals quite a bit with life orb against fire types like Typh,Emboar,Entei,Moltres as well as just giving it more coverage. However, she is plagued by her low speed that forces her to switch out when a threat comes in that is faster. Also, steel types are a problem since Vileplume has very limited coverage. However, in my 70+ games with Vileplume this month, I've found that she has surpassed my expectations and done very well especially with good predections.

    I personally run this set on Vileplume (That's quite similar to the Smoogon guide I know)
    Item: Life orb
    Ev's: 92 HP 252 SPA 164 Speed
    Ability: Effect Spore (Since not in sun)
    Moves:
    Sludge Bomb
    Giga Drain
    Moonlight
    Sleep Powder
    Nature: Modest

    This set works actually pretty decent and I think Plume is the kind of 'mon that is a Top C rank Pokemon! Let me know what you think :)
  13. ss234

    ss234 bop.

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    Why would you use vileplume over offensive amoonguss? Unless you can provide some relevant calc's where vileplume is better than offensive amoonguss then I don't even think it should be listed tbh. D rank maybe at a push for vileplume imo-even if it does get a few key ko's over amoonguss, it's still for the most part outclassed as amoonguss has better bulk and regenerator.
  14. EonX

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    Seems, I missed a lot in the past 3 days, so I'll try to cover everything:

    Vanilluxe: Pretty much agreeing with everything stated. Vanilluxe struggles to stand out tbh. Offensively, it has to deal with Glaceon (more raw power) and Rotom-F (secondary STAB) in general while it has to compete against Wallrein (more bulk) and Glaceon (more raw power... again) defensively. Should stay in D.

    Spiritomb: When you're giving a Steel-type a free switch-in on pretty much any move you use other than Will-O-Wisp (or Trick, but for the record, Aggron and Escavalier typically run CB themselves while Durant can at least make use of it) then that is pretty dang hindering. While it is fairly versatile (able to go physical, special, or defensive) and is pretty much the best spinblocker in the tier, it's basically like Kabutops. Tops is the best spinner, but it just screams for Grass-types to come in. Tomb is the best spinblocker, but it just screams for Steels to come in to setup or support their team. If Tops isn't Low-S, then I don't see why Tomb should be either.

    Medicham: I think it's fine in Mid-B tbh. Sure, it has a hell of a lot of power and is a solid revenge killer, but it can't spam HJK with safety until Ghost-types or any random Pokemon with Protect (Alomomola, Clefable, etc.) are removed due to its serious side effect. Meanwhile, Gallade, a Pokemon who has the same typing, doesn't have this issue since Close Combat just drops defenses, but doesn't punish Gallade for 50% of its max HP upon a miss. Gallade also has Justified. This means that it doesn't get totally screwed if Spiritomb comes in on a STAB move. Medicham can just be hit by Pursuit for free since it really doesn't have a move to overwhelm Spiritomb. Meanwhile, Gallade's Justified discourages Pursuit due to the possible Attack boost that would result in Gallade being able to overpower Spiritomb. As long as Gallade and Spiritomb are around, I think Medicham should stay in Mid-B.

    Rhydon: I'd be cool with Low-A for Rhydon. I think its 4x weaknesses to Water and Grass are pretty bad when Slowking and Sceptile are 2 of the most common Pokemon in the tier, but if this thing gets in, it will likely cause some pretty serious damage to the opposing team. The tank set is a fantastic pivot into physical attacks for teams that want to maintain offensive pressure while the CB set just destroys stuff a la Aggron. The RP set is hard to set up, but it can easily catch the opponent by surprise and turn the tide of the match in a heart beat. I think Mid-A is a little too high due to its flaws, but they shouldn't hold it back from Low-A. It's really good in this meta, especially if supported properly.

    Omastar: This is a bit touchy imo. While Omastar is a fantastic sweeper, it doesn't get easy opportunities to do so outside of Entei and Emboar (the latter of which can just predict the switch-in with Superpower) Lanturn is also a decent check even after a boost due to its special bulk and resistance to Surf and Ice Beam. (HP Grass is super effective, but it's also Omastar's weakest move) Lanturn can KO with Volt Switch or paralyze with T-Wave. Overall, I think its sweeping ability is enough to make Omastar Top-B, but I'll play around with it a little before finalizing this opinion.

    Vileplume: Pretty much agreeing with Silvershadow here. Vileplume also has to compete with Roselia as a defensive Grass-type as well. Amoonguss has overall bulk and Regenerator while Roselia has amazing special bulk, Spikes, and Natural Cure. Even if you try to use Chlorophyll on a Sunny Day team, there's Victreebel to compete with who has higher speed and better mixed offenses. Seems to me that Vileplume just gets outclassed at anything it tries to do.

    Hope I got everything. Will edit this if I missed anything.
  15. Molk

    Molk Godlike Usmash
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    Alright, made two updates!

    I could still see some controversy on where rhydon should be placed because of its lack of recovery and two 4x weaknesses. I decided to move it up for now, if anyone strongly opposes though, i'll consider moving it back down to top B rank where it was before.

    About Omastar: i kinda agree that while omastar has a lot of destructive potential that it has a bit of trouble setting up in the current except against specific threats. But there's a different set that makes me want to push for top B: its hazards set. Omastar is pretty good at setting up hazards early game because of its good physical bulk along with decent resistances and a nice special attack to abuse its scald with. Because of the aforementioned bulk, i often find it pretty easy to get SR+a few layers of spikes up every match, and because of its typing, omastar definitely has more defensive utility than Smeargle and Crustle: its main competition for setting SR+Spikes, who either have terrible defenses, a lack of important resistances, or both. Meanwhile, Omastar can counter things such as Entei and Swellow, among other things because of its typing.
  16. Molk

    Molk Godlike Usmash
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    Hey, sorry for double posting. I know its usually frowned upon in the forums but i guess its alright here since the smogon forums have been down for a while and there really hasn't been much time for anyone to post between then and now. Anyways, this is a proposal i thought of during the forum downtime and i wanted some more thoughts on it (might add some more proposals later, but we'll see).

    Proposing Gardevoir be moved down from mid B rank to either low B rank or top C rank: Really thinking about it i simply don't think Gardevoir deserves a spot in mid B rank anymore. There are many reasons for this: the most significant of which is that Gardevoir's niche as a check to Nidoqueen that can even threaten a countersweep is irrelevant now that Nidoqueen moved back up to her spot in UU, which hurts Gardevoir's viability quite a bit of course. Gardevoir also has (and really always had) quite a bit of trouble with the common Pursuit users in the tier such as Spiritomb and Escavalier: even moreso than the majority of other Psychic-types in the tier, as Gardevoir is so physically frail she usually ends up being KO'd by Pursuit whether she stays in or not tbh, while some other Psychics might be able to take at least one Pursuit before going down. Gardevoir Struggles with some other common moves/pokemon in RU as well, such as the prevelance of physical priority in many forms. Lastly, Gardevoir recieves quite a bit of competition from the other Psychic-types available in RU at the moment, only having a few perks such as trace to seperate herself. Most of the time i'd consider Mesprit, Sigilyph, or even the rare Jynx before Gardevoir as an offensive Psychic-type in this metagame. Of course, Gardevoir still isn't a bad Pokemon by any means, and she definitely still has some perks over the other Psychics such as Will-O-Wisp, Trace, the ability to Wishpass, and even a slightly higher Special Attack stat, so i don't think she should move below mid C rank at worst.

    So what do you think? Is Gardevoir still worthy of B rank? Or do you agree that she should be moved down in the current metagame?
  17. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    I'd be fine with moving Gardevoir down to low B. It did lose viability quite a bit when Nidoqueen left the tier since it can't use the Sheer Force boost to its advantage. It has a lot of competition as an offensive Psychic-type from Mesprit, Sigilyph, Musharna, etc. as mentioned, which gives less of a reason to be used. Its insane fraility not only makes it vulnerable to Pursuit, but this means Gardevoir can't reliably check things it could such as Hitmonlee and Gallade (lol its counterpart), which can be a real hindrance. Gardevoir's bulk compared to things like Mesprit is much worse where it counts, which is kinda a bad point. It's still powerful and the special bulk is pretty nice, although I'd be cool with Low B for it.

    Also i'll reiterate but put a lock on Sandslash so that its current rank cannot be changed.
  18. Magcargo

    Magcargo Five Star
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    I actually think gardevoir should go down to mid C-Rank. Gardevoir is the jack of all trades master of none kind of psychic type, which isn't a good trait to have in a tier full of psychic types. Gardevoir is outclassed by most psychic types in the tier, which includes slowking, jynx, musharna, sigilyph, uxie ETC. Like ScraftyIsTheBest stated, gardevoir's low physical defense not only makes is more vulnerable to pursuit, but also makes it unable to check things like gallade, which most other psychic types can check. Wishpassing is done better by gallade, who has a better defensive typing. I honestly see no reason to use gardevoir anymore, which is why it should go down to Mid C-Rank.

    I also think hariyama should go up to top C-Rank or low B-Rank. Hariyama is one of those pokemon who gets bad rap because noobs use it improperly. Hariyama is ridiculously powerful with a guts boost and it can actually 2HKO certain variants of uxie and alomomola with facade and close combat respectively after Stealth rocks. Several other fighting types eclipse it, but its Sheer power makes it Top C-rank or low B-Rank worthy
  19. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    I'd support this notion, since Hariyama has the nice ability to benefit from being inflicted by status and is a powerhouse, but I'm posting here because I'd like Primeape to follow suit as well. Primeape has the advantage over the other Fighting-types in the tier thanks to its access to U-turn, which gives it a good niche as a fast and strong scout. This also means it can attract things like Uxie and Spiritomb, but also U-turn out to gain momentum and resort to a proper teammate such as Absol, and this along with a Choice Scarf means Primeape is an excellent momentum gainer. Primeape also has the nice advantage as a Scarf Fighter vs. Emboar with its better Speed and U-turn, which means it can also revenge kill things like Aerodactyl and Swellow as well as opposing Braviary and Rotom-C. It can also run a Life Orb set and also has a nice tool in Encore to cripple Pokemon such as Steelix by locking them into Stealth Rock, and following suit with its decent power. It hits somewhat hard too. I'd like to see both Hariyama and Primeape go up a bit, since they're both actually pretty decent choices as Fighting-types in this metagame.
  20. SilentVerse

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    I haven't used offensive Vileplume in like a year, but even back then, I had considered using offensive Amoonguss over offensive Vileplume. Granted, while the lack of Regenerator was a big part of the reason why I decided to use Vileplume over Amoonguss, there's still a lot of key reasons that Vileplume is superior offensively than Amoonguss, the biggest of which is probably its Speed. While Vileplume is still hideously slow, it's Speed is definitely better than Amoonguss's, and Vileplume, unlike Amoonguss, actually outspeeds quite a few things of importance. For example, with that spread that Oddish is the best posted, Vileplume outspeeds everything up to min base 70s like Specially Defensive Magneton, which lets it outspeed almost all of the relevant defensive threats that it would want to outspeed (Cryogonal, Uxie, Qwilfish, and I GUESS defensive Rotom are about it I think?). Amoonguss, on the other hand, struggles to outspeed things such as Druddigon, Tangrowth, defensive Omastar, Clefable, and such; in fact, just to outspeed everything up to TANGROWTH, Amoonguss needs to run 164 Speed. Meanwhile, to outspeed Tangrowth, Vileplume only has to run 4 Speed EVs; the rest can go into HP to drastically increase Vileplume's bulk. And, the funny thing is, with Amoonguss's 92 HP / 252 SpA / 164 Spe spread and Vileplume's 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe spread, Vileplume is actually slightly bulkier physically and only marginally less bulky specially, while also being significantly stronger.

    However, being slightly bulkier physically is obviously not worth the loss of Regenerator and Spore; where Vileplume actually shines is its ability to outspeed Lanturn, Poliwrath, offensive Tangrowth, Guts Hariyama, Sandslash, Clefable, Choice Band Aggron (well, the spread on-site at least...), and various other miscellaneous threats that Amoonguss is unable to really outspeed simply because it's so much slower than Vileplume. This particularly important in the case of offensive Tangrowth; because Amoonguss cannot outspeed it, it can't really answer it effectively, since Tangrowth will just put it to sleep . Vileplume, on the other hand, can switch into a resisted attack and then KO Tangrowth with Sludge Bomb. Furthermore, while Vileplume isn't THAT much stronger than Amoonguss, its power does allow it to do some cute things, such as potentially OHKO Typhlosion, and offensive Rotom after Stealth Rock (though granted this chance is p small, but...). So yeah, I wouldn't really say it's directly outclassed by Amoonguss per-se; it's more of a wallbreaker, while Amoonguss is more of an offensive tank I guess.

    To conclude:

    <~Honko> so basically vileplume is better if you wanna outspeed tangrowth or drudd
    <~Honko> amoonguss is probably better if you don't care about speed
    phantom likes this.
  21. Branflakes325

    Branflakes325 bold new taste
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    A few things I would like to add about our cuddly fetus friend Duosion:

    Experience has led me to believe it may belong in mid-high C or even low B rank, considering the other Pokemon in those tiers. I have had a lot of success using defensive Duosion on my mixed hail team, and it acts as somewhat of a defensive Clefable. While its maxed eviolite-boosted defense doesn't quite match that of Musharna, it still has the ability to tank quite a few notable physical threats. Most importantly, it's immune to hazards, hail and status, which seem to make it clearly superior as a psychic tank in RU.

    Here's a bit of concrete justification for using Duosion as an effective hail tank.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Absol Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Duosion: 268-320 (80.48 - 96.09%)
    252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Flare Blitz: (63.96 - 75.67%)
    252 Atk Choice Band Technician Scyther Bug Bite: (85.28 - 100.9%)
    252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Head Smash: (77.77 - 91.89%)
    252 Atk Flying Gem Archeops Acrobatics: (61.56 - 72.97%)

    Tanking these threats isn't enough by itself to save Duosion, but its ability to deal back heavy damage or KOs with 125 SpA (uninvested) psychic and hp fighting is what makes it truly viable in the RU metagame. However, one of its biggest flaws is the presence of Spiritomb because it can't touch the thing.

    252+ Atk Choice Band Spiritomb Pursuit: (36.63 - 43.84%) - This actually allows Duosion to hail stall (yay) the opponent's Spiritomb by spamming recover. I think that's pretty awesome.
  22. DittoCrow

    DittoCrow
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    Gardevoir should be moved to Top C Rank imo. Its physical defense really holds it back, especially because the usage of Pursuit users has increased. What sucks about Gardevoir is that there are so many other Psychic-types with a ton of utility, and Gardevoir is easy to overlook. It's not a good idea to use multiple Psychic-types on one team because of Pursuit trappers and other similar, common weaknesses, so Gardevoir really has a hard time fitting onto teams and succeeding (especially now that Nidoqueen is gone). However, Trace is really good and it has a good movepool, so low B would also be fine.

    Hariyama is a really good breaker. It 2HKOes most Pokemon in the tier with Close Combat or Facade, and can be a good revenge killer with Fake Out + Bullet Punch. It has a lot of potential to wear defensive teams down and get a KO or two vs offensive teams, which rarely have a solid switch-in. This opens up the path for other sweepers to clean up, especially fellow Fighting-types like Hitmonlee. Hariyama is definitely a great Pokemon when utilized correctly so it should be Mid B in my opinion.

    Vileplume is viable btw because of what SV said and it also has Aromatherapy. I forgot why but I was actually considering it for one of my teams (which I never completed) so I can't really say much, but I do think it has a niche. I wouldn't mind it getting ranked.
  23. Worldtour

    Worldtour aka Swamp-Rocket
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    I think Escavalier should be moved to Low S. There are way too many Pokemon carrying Fire moves right now and this makes Escavalier fairly easy to eliminate from the match, which mitigates one of the main reasons to use it in the first place - multiple switch in opportunities. It also really doesn't help that many Pokemon that Escavalier should be hitting and OHKOing, such as Slowking and Tangrowth, can do the same thing back to it with a well placed HP Fire or Fire Blast. Even random Pokemon are starting to run some sort of Fire attack to get past some of their common checks, most notably Aerodactyl, Druddigon, Amoonguss, and there are also many Pokemon that have always ran Fire moves that create iffy situations including Absol, and of course, the STAB users. It also gives an easy switch into Qwilfish, which can just lay down Spikes in its face, and other Pokemon such as Aggron.

    I don't think Escavalier is on quite the same level as Entei, Sceptile, or Uxie, as it lacks the versatility of them and can be quite easy to eliminate from the match with a Fire move and wear down as a result of that speed. It still threatens a lot of teams, but not as much as other Pokemon in Mid S, and as a result I think it should be dropped to Low S. I just don't see it threaten teams nearly as much as the others.

    As for Gardevoir, I never really understood why it was Mid B after Nidoqueen left, as out of all the Pursuit bait Pokemon out there, it stands out as one of the more helpless. Mesprit also gives it a lot of competition with its superior bulk and Ice Beam/U-turn, so Top C seems fitting. Hariyama think deserves Low B, but everything about it has already been covered imo.
    Branflakes325 likes this.
  24. DittoCrow

    DittoCrow
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    [​IMG] Torterra to Top/Mid B. Torterra is a really good Pokemon in this metagame. It has great utility, being able to set up Stealth Rock, recover with Synthesis/Leech Seed, hit hard with Wood Hammer / Earthquake (it's a great tank), and destroy Volt Switch users, especially Rotom-C who destroys every Pokemon that is immune to Volt Switch with Leaf Storm (except for Camerupt, who lacks recovery). Others include Lanturn and Manectric (who can't 2HKO SpDef tort with Overheat or Flamethrower). It is also one of the only few Pokemon that isn't 2HKOed by Aggron's Head Smash. Furthermore, SpDef Torterra counters Kabutops and Sandslash, and can take Cryogonal's Ice Beam and OHKO it with Wood Hammer or Stone Edge. This makes it a very solid SR user. It even has more utility in that it checks threats like Slowking and Galvantula (though it is 2HKOed by Bug Buzz). I've mainly been talking about the SpDef set so far, but Torterra can run many other sets too, such as physical defense and Rock Polish, which are also very good. The main problem with SpDef Torterra is that it has 4 moveslot syndrome, so if you don't run Stone Edge, Sigilyph and Moltres get a free switch in. Torterra is also hard to use vs BlizzSpam teams, since it gives Pokemon like Glaceon a free switch-in. I would talk more about Torterra but it's late and I have more Pokemon to nominate!

    [​IMG]Exeggutor to Mid B. Exeggutor is simply a boss. With Lum Berry + Harvest, it's basically immune to status, meaning that it can even beat Smeargle with a bit of luck (I posted a log and the set in the np stage 16 thread). It's also one of the best counters to defensive Slowking, as well as many other bulky waters like Poliwrath, Lanturn, and Qwilfish. With Psychic, it also defeats defensive Grass-types like Tangrowth and Amoonguss, which are always annoying to switch in to. It even makes Emboar cautious of switching in due to Psychic. Exeggutor is just a great answer to a lot of threats with this set, which is why I think it belongs in Mid B. It just has crippling weaknesses to U-turn and Pursuit, which can actually be overcome with Sleep Powder.

    [​IMG] Walrein to Low A.. Walrein is broken imo. If it sets up and you don't have a Rest mon like Poliwrath or Spiritomb to PP stall it, or a Magic Guard/Overcoat mon, you have like a 5% chance to win. Most of its other counters like Cinccino, Klinklang, and even Escavalier can be taken down by Walrein's support (usually hazards ESPECIALLY TSPIKES), making it easy for Walrein to stall out teams mid- late-game. It's pretty much unbeatable when it gets a Sub and the conditions are right. The only reason why it shouldn't be much higher is due to the extreme amount of support it needs through Snover, hazards, etc.

    [​IMG]Checks and counters such as Slowking/Emboar/Entei/Escavalier/Spiritomb etc. are found on nearly every team. Thus, most teams are naturally prepared for Jynx. Sleep Talk users and Pursuit users are much more common, so Jynx isn't really a huge threat to many teams anymore, but I do think it can do a lot of damage when used correctly. I just haven't seen that, I guess? It also has 4mss which is really troublesome and makes it less of a threat. Not really set on this decision yet, but I think it should be moved to Top B. Kinda want some more discussion on Jynx.

    [​IMG]Swellow to Top B. Swellow is one of the best late-game sweepers in the tier. It hits incredibly hard and even has blistering Speed, allowing it to check threats such as Sceptile and Durant. Anyone who's used Swellow knows how easy it is for it to clean up teams late-game or serve as a revenge killer to things like Galvantula or weakened foes with Quick Attack.
  25. EonX

    EonX One and Only
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    Time to cover stuff:

    Gardevoir: Top-C for Gardevoir is fine. While it can do many things, it does face a lot of competition in every role it tries to fill. It can work really well if given the right support and its versatility is noteworthy, but there are many more specialized Psychic-types for pretty much any role you would want Gardevoir to fill.

    Hariyama: I'm really on the fence about this one. I know it shouldn't be Mid-C, but I have an issue with figuring out whether to move it to low B or Top C. Ultimately I think Low B is ok. I can't agree with moving it all the way to Mid B due to the fact that Gallade and Medicham are around. The former gives Hariyama direct competition as a wallbreaker while Medicham is able to fill the added role of revenge killer with its Scarf set in exchange for being next to helpless against Spiritomb and most bulky Psychic-types (most of which Gallade and Hariyama can at least heavily dent) There's also the longevitiy issue. Since Hariyama requires a status orb to gain much of its power, its lifespan is much shorter than that of Gallade and even Medicham. Low B is cool since it can dent a lot of things, but its issues with longevitiy and Speed do hold it back a bit.

    Duosion: As I'm not really experienced with using Hail myself (especially Hail Stall) I can't say a whole lot about this one. That said, I don't really think bulk has ever been Duosion's issue. Duosion's issue is its usable coverage when compared to other Psychic-types. When looking at Psychic-types that don't get Focus Blast (Jynx, Uxie, and Mesprit are the 3 others that pop to mind instantly) the other 3 get other useful coverage options other than HP Fighting. Uxie has Thunderbolt, Giga Drain, and a host of support moves. Jynx has a secondary STAB in Ice. Mesprit has BoltBeam. Speaking of BoltBeam, I even feel Mesprit outclasses Duosion on a Hail team because of one key element: access to Blizzard. Mesprit still has solid bulk, a good base 105 Special Attack stat, but unlike Duosion, it can actually put most Pursuit users in a bind with Blizzard or U-turn. If anything, I'd say mid-high C on Duosion.

    Escavalier: Moving it down to Low S is probably best. While it's no secret that Escavalier is a great wallbreaker and can tank Blizzards easier than most other Pokemon can, the fact that there are so many Pokemon carrying Fire-type moves hurts it enough to drop it to Low S. There's the easy ones like Entei, Emboar, Typhlosion, and Moltres. But then there are the ones that use a Fire move for coverage. Slowking, Tangrowth, Tauros, Manectric, Rotom-C, Absol, and Druddigon are all perfectly viable and capable of running one of HP Fire, Flamethrower, Fire Blast, or Overheat respectively on most of their common sets. Escavalier is a big threat, no doubt about it, but there are also plenty of Pokemon that are capable of handling it right now. (heck, I just named 11 lol)

    Edit: Gah, missed DC's post. Time to cover it now:

    Torterra: I'll try to finish what you started here DC. Terra's a great Pokemon right now. Its SpDef set is one of the best tanking/walling sets in RU right now. It takes on pretty much any Electric-type in the tier and comes out on top. It has STAB EQ to make Fire-types think twice about coming in and the SR it lays on its own deters Ice- and Flying-types from coming in as much. It can also utilize a more offensive approach to the tanking strategy thanks to its solid Attack stat and access to Stone Edge to directly threaten Ice- and Flying-types. Its Rock Polish set is a bit like Rhydon, only Terra has more overall bulk and marginaally better Speed. I'd go with Top B because it has versatility on both offense and defense. On offense, it can break down walls with an Offensive Tank or CB set or it can choose to go the sweeping route with Rock Polish. On defense, Torterra can be EVed to better handle special attackers or physical attackers depending on the support that it's given.

    Exeggutor: Don't really have much experience with it one way or the other, so I'll have to leave this to others to discuss.

    Walrein: This guy is a pain in the neck. I'd definitely go for Low A, maybe higher. Once it gets a Sub up, you're pretty much done. Almost any defensive Pokemon that lacks Toxic is pretty much inviting Walrein to come in and set up a Sub. It does need a lot of specialized support to function at its best, but Walrein is easily worth that specialized support because it flat out wins games with it.

    Jynx: Sorry to disappoint you DC, but this is another Pokemon I don't have a lot of experience with :(

    Swellow: I'm not too sure about Top B, but Swellow should at least move up to Mid B at worst. As DC mentioned, Swellow is a great late-game cleaner and emergency revenge killer. The only issue I really have with it is its longevity. Swellow is so incredibly frail that you really just get one shot to pull off the late-game sweep/clean/whatever you want to call it. The fact that Swellow also needs a Status Orb hurts it a little too imo (though this does make it immune to Sleep and paralysis once activated, which is a plus for sure) I'd be ok with Top B, but I'd prefer Mid B for now.

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  1. FrostLobster