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Gen 5 The RU Viability Ranking Thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Molk, Oct 5, 2012.

  1. /B/utterfree

    /B/utterfree

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    Aight. Again I only proposed upon having playtested Rhydon myself as well as having read Rhydon's RU on-site analysis (which is where the whole "Crawdaunt counters ALL the Rhydon sets" came from) whilst trying the Eviolite set.

    I can let it stay in B Rank if you think it is that good, Molk. I withdraw my proposal of demotion for now.
  2. sfgiantsfanmike

    sfgiantsfanmike

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    @Molk:

    Oh, man. Didn't believe those calcs at first blush. Just ran the numbers... Wow, just wow. That's one bulky pokemon o_O

    Do you have the numbers for HP grass/water from the things Rhydon's trying to check/counter? Only have time for the quick look up/post on break here at work...
  3. Molk

    Molk Crustle knocked off the opposing Rhydon's Assault Vest!
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    Uhhhh..... im not sure exactly which pokemon your looking for, but ill just post some pokemon rhydon is capable of checking, lol.


    193 Atk vs 310 Def & 414 HP (70 Base Power): 164 - 196 (39.61% - 47.34%)

    this is life orb hp grass from entei vs specially defensive rhydon, this means that even if an entei is running hp grass AND predicts correctly, it will never beat a full health rhydon, pretty nice imo.

    349 Atk vs 310 Def & 414 HP (70 Base Power): 296 - 352 (71.50% - 85.02%)

    heres life orb boosted moltres hp grass, so rhydon can at least revenge kill moltres no matter what.

    ill add more calcs later after you request, but i dont know exactly what your asking for atm
  4. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf meh
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    I think Smeargle should be in S rank. It's one of the few Pokemon, along with the current S rank Pokemon that are part of my 'must have an answer to' checklist when making teams.

    Smeargle is the singular most versatile Pokemon in the game and can fulfill almost any role better than any other given Pokemon thanks to its complete movepool. Smeargle is the best hazard setter in the RU tier, due to not only carrying both relevant hazards, but also Spore to guarantee set up of some sort. Spore is the crux to any Smeargle set, allowing it to set up hazards, trick room support of sweeps, or baton pass boosts. Smeargle the best user of QuiverPassing in RU, and can grant deadly boosts to Pokemon such as Nidoqueen. Smeargle is also a terrific Trick Room supporter, able to both set up the field condition, and also sweep significant portions of teams with a Level 1 endeavor set.

    A large criticism of Smeargle is that it is 'taunt-bait' yet Smeargle can even sacrifice a moveslot for Magic Coat to counter Taunt.

    There is literally nothing Smeargle can't do and so it should be a S-tier threat.
  5. Worldtour

    Worldtour aka Swamp-Rocket
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    I have tried using Rhydon - definetly a B-tier Pokemon. It has some really crippling flaws, but it has a lot of stuff that makes it really, really, really good.

    Will test out Tauros and will edit in to see if I am an idiot about thinking Tauros is only OK.

    EDIT: I just cannot get Tauros to work. It has gotten OHKOed by some Special Attack 3 out of 4 times, and the other time it did take down a Pokemon, but then it didn't see much other action. I'm still sticking to the notion that it should be B-ranked. Note that I haven't face any Ghosts yet. I mean, I know its OK, but I just cannot make it function well...
  6. DittoCrow

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    I don't think Smeargle should be S rank. While it is arguably the best "lead" or hazards user in the tier, it is prepared for. Lots of Pokemon such as Uxie, Drapion, and Gallade run Lum Berry, while other Pokemon such as Bouffalant, Magmortar, and the rare Primeape are immune to Spore. Furthermore, Smeargle isn't the one keep hazards off of the field by itself, and if it wants to prevent Rapid Spin for a turn, it needs to sacrifice Magic Coat for Explosion or another move of that type. After it performs its job, Smeargle is dead weight on the team, as it is so frail that if it is still alive after it sets up, it will probably only have 1 HP. Basically, Smeargle only has 1 chance to do its job, and while it does it extremely well, I don't think it should be S rank because of this.

    The other Pokemon in S rank can perform multiple roles with one set, and they usually play a huge part in the full length of the game. Smeargle generally only plays a huge part in the first few turns, and its work has the potential to be removed shortly after.
  7. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf meh
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    Tsk tsk DittoCrow, you've only responded to a part of Smeargle.

    First off, you agree that Smeargle is the best hazards users/lead in the tier. This alone justifies its position as A rank/borderline S rank, as the best choice for that particular role. "But Smeargle is prepared for!" you say. This is true, that the hazards set is prepared for. However, not only does this overpreparation still fail to stop Smeargle from setting up at least one hazard, if the opponent lacks such an overpreparation, Smeargle is free to run rampant through a team.

    However, the most important piece, and the one you failed to address, is that the hazards lead is not the only set Smeargle can run viably, nor is it the only lead set Smeargle can run. Smeargle can very viably run a QuiverPass set, QDing, then Sporing if possible, then Baton Passing to something such as Nidoqueen in the lead spot as well. Smeargle can also very viably run a Spore/Trick Room/Endeavour/Dragon Rage set that both supports TR teams, and can easily kill 2 or 3 pokemon in the middle spot or the lead spot as well.

    If you bring in your Uxie to counter Smeargle and it turns out to be the TR set, you are, quite simply, fucked up shit creek. It is not only the amazing utility of Smeargle's hazard set--enough to make Smeargle borderline S of its own merits, incidentally--but it is Smeargle's incredible versatility and incredible abilities to support the team that push it firmy into S tier in my estimate.
  8. DittoCrow

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    I was talking about the QuiverPass set as well: "Smeargle only has 1 chance to do its job" can refer to QuiverPassing and Trick Room. I don't think that having a Lum Berry Gallade or choosing Vital Spirit on Magmortar is necessarily over-preparation. There are also multiple other Pokemon who can set up at least one hazard. I also don't see how Smeargle can run rampant through a team. Once it sets up 3 layers of Spikes and Stealth Rock, it's completely dead weight. During the time it is setting up, it can also become setup fodder because it has no way to harm the opponent. I've been in many situations where I put an opponent to sleep and the opponent sent in something such as Crawdaunt to get a free Substitute/Dragon Dance.

    Like I said in my previous post, Smeargle really only has one chance to use Quiver Dance and Baton Pass to a teammate. It's not like something such as Nidoqueen is impossible to take down after a Quiver Dance, either.

    The Trick Room set is also similar in that it can't keep setting up throughout the match. Also, Trick Room teams are even worse now that Cofagrigus left the tier, so I really wouldn't include Smeargle in S rank partly because it can run a Trick Room set. I don't see how Smeargle can kill 2 or 3 Pokemon either. Smeargle will mostly only kill 1 Pokemon max, as it will always be brought down to Focus Sash after an attack and will be easily revenge killed by the ever-present priority.

    Assuming that Uxie is Lum since it is being used to counter Smeargle, Smeargle won't even be able to get one KO.

    I'm not saying that Smeargle isn't versatile (it learns Sketch :p), it's just that Smeargle really only has 3 good sets: Hazards, Baton Pass, and Trick Room. The hazards set is easily dealt with, and the Trick Room set isn't really S rank quality since TR teams aren't that great anymore. The Baton Pass set is decent but once the pass recipient is KOed, you're down 2 Pokemon. A rank is perfect for Smeargle imo, unless there was a rank between S and A xD.
  9. Texas Cloverleaf

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    The thing is, Smeargle neither needs, nor is designed to need, more than one chance to do its job-with the possible exception of the hazards set. In the case of the Quiver Dance and Trick Room sets, it only requires one chance to either kill/incapacitate 2 or 3 Pokemon and at that point it has fulfilled its job fantastically. In the case of the hazard set, only being able to set up once is a downside, but hazards Smeargle is typically run on either offensive teams, who can usually OHKO the spinner or only need a couple of Pokemon weakened; or else is run alongside strong spinblocker support making being unable to set up twice a moot point. In regards to the Crawdaunt circumstance, Whirlwind is also a viable and common fourth move on that set, stopping potential set up.

    lol, nidoqueen is pretty freaking hard to take down after a QD. After a QD it outspeeds base 120s, meaning only scarfers, Accelgor and Aerodactyl outspeed. Previous checks and counters such as Lanturn, Cryogonal, and Uxie are all specially oriented, making it harder for them to KO Nidoqueen, not to mention Nidoqueens great bulk. Speaking of this bulk, it makes it that much harder to check Queen with prioirty. The only reliable means of stopping a QD passed Nidoqueen is with LO aerodactyl or physical scarfers such as lolScarfGallade, as otherwise Nidqueen can easily tank most hits.

    This is all circumstantial of course, but many things become very, very, threatening with a QD passed.

    The Trick Room set only needs to take out 2 members of a team and its more than opened up holes for the other sweepers. I wouldn't put Smeargle in S tier solely because of a TR set either but having the option to effectively use it is a large benefit.


    Simply put, Smeargle provides unparalleled support, and almost never fails to fulfill the role it is required to fill. For me, the best support mon in the tier (in any tier tbh) deserves S rank.
  10. /B/utterfree

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    Yeah Smeargle should be S Rank. Its movepool is way too diverse. It may be frail and not able to pull off some of the boosting it wants to do, but in all relative honesty its support capabilities are unrivaled. To keep Smeargle in A Rank would be rather silly, since most supports don't have half the versatility Smeargle does (not even Uxie, a fellow S-Ranker, has as much versatility as Smeargle).

    ONE MORE THING x1: Smeargle + anyone makes a superb Flotsam/Jetsam duo core (what I nickname various things like Amoongus+Slowking). Smeargle's utilities benefit every other Pokemon in the tier such that his support sets should all allow him to be S Rank.
  11. Molk

    Molk Crustle knocked off the opposing Rhydon's Assault Vest!
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    Im not going to make any official changes for at least a day, but ive seen that smeargle and lilligant have been hotly debated on both here and irc, they are kinda borderline tbh, lol. I dont think i should make an extra tier for them, but its hard to say whether either or them is A or S.

    I have a proposal after testing this nigga out, ive been wondering what other people think about moving Ditto up from C rank to B rank. I kinda underestimated Ditto in the past because i didnt see it much, but after testing it out on the ladder and against people like Oglemi and Trop, its been pretty nice for me. Ditto has a lot of uses outside of just revenge killing (although revenge killing is great). One of my favorite things about using Ditto over a different scarfer is its incredible ability to scout an opponents entire moveset simply by switching in. This can be the difference between life and death in some situations, allowing you to avoid surprise moves and prepare for pokemon that are capable of running a lot of sets (such as sceptile). Ditto is also rather cool because of the fact that it copies boosts, and while its less relevant in Ru than say, OU, its still pretty nice to come in on a +1 fraxure or +2 kabutops and steal their boost. Also, thanks to imposter, ditto will always outspeed its opponent initially, essentially becoming a scarfed version of the other pokemon. Ditto can also do cool tricks like counter smeargle leads with its own, faster spore, Switch in on defensive pokemon and steal their support moves/hazards (i actually won a match by using Ditto to pass a 150 hp wish to my entei, lol). Imposter also copies abilities, so you can take advantage of things like slowking and tangrowth by coming in, copying regenerator, and immediatly switching back out. Another example is to come in on a Scarf Manectric's volt switch and copy lightningrod, or coming in on a lanturn to get some free hp from its electric moves. Ditto can also use its opponents typing to its advantage, thanks to gamefreak, there are quite a few pokemon that resist at least one of their own STABs. Examples include Rotom-C, Feraligatr, Sceptile, Nidoqueen, and Moltres (ditto takes neutral damage from stealth rock no matter what iirc). All of these pokemon have coverage moves to hit themselves hard, so with proper prediction, ditto can come in and check threats like these.

    Has anyone else used Ditto? If so, whats your opinion on it?
  12. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf meh
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    I'm sad that I have to do this cause I used to be this things greatest proponent, but I think Manectric needs to be moved down to B or C tier. The metagame is no longer as weak to Electric as it once was, meaning that Manectric's STAB is much less easily spammable. Te drop of Nidoqueen means that Manectric can quickly become a liability by giving that free turns. But the biggest detractor is Lanturn. With the threat of Moltres, Lanturn has become very common, and Manectric is completely shut down by Lanturn, entirely useless against teams with it involved.

    Its been an unfortunate fall from grace but Manectric is no longer good in RU.
  13. /B/utterfree

    /B/utterfree

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    Arguments in bold:

    To help prove a point in regards to Ditto (and Regirock/Braviary), I will post this replay:

    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ru2922666
  14. Oglemi

    Oglemi gimme
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    I'm going to throw my support behind moving Rotom up to the S tier. There's a few reasons behind this:

    - It can be modified to beat a variety of spinners. It's currently the only one that can be EVed and modified to beat Kabutops reliably. Cryo gives it some troubles, but really a simple set of SubToxic instead of SubWisp will really screw it over (Sub, Pain Split, Toxic, Thunderbolt/Shadow Ball).

    - You have no idea what set it's running. Even looking at playstyle you can never be sure what set the Rotom is running. Bulky, SubSplit, and Scarf are all fantastic sets that play a variety of roles on a team, and each are able to beat a variety of different Pokemon.

    - It's typing is brilliant. Even if it is really frail, it's still pretty difficult to take down due to that typing. You can't really just switch in a Dark-type and say "gg", because the SubWisp and Bulky sets will just fuck them over. And Levitate is amazing when the other Ghosts available are weak to Spikes and TSpikes.

    Played well, Rotom is nearly invaluable, with the only things bringing it down being its rather frailness and ironically four-moveslot syndrome. But really if you're looking to use a Ghost, I'd almost always pick Rotom at this point over the other available ones.
  15. Molk

    Molk Crustle knocked off the opposing Rhydon's Assault Vest!
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    Okay, out of the proposed changes before, these are the ones that have happened so far, remember, the changes that havent already happened are still up for discussion! You can also object to one of my changes to get it changed back.


    Rotom-N UP from A rank to S rank

    Lilligant STAYS A rank (for now)

    Tauros STAYS A rank (for now)

    Rhydon STAYS B rank (for now)

    Escavalier STAYS S rank(for now, im kinda disappointed tbh, there was little to no discussion on this one, im going to keep it in with the new proposed changes, k?).

    Im going to have to say that i agree with Oglemi and Butterfree about Rotom, Rotom is really starting to stand out in this metagame despite being less common before just one month ago, and for good reason. As a spinblocker, Rotom can get past the most common spinner, Kabutops rather easily, being able to be EVed to take a +2 aqua jet after two rounds of stealth rock with little cost. Rotom can also run a bulky set to be a full stop to Kabutops, which is also very nice. Actually, looking at RU's spinners, the only one rotom struggles with is cryogonal :o. Also, as Oglemi said, Rotom is very versatile, it can run quite a few different sets to great effect. Whether it be scarf, specs, bulky, subsplit, subwisp.... you name it!. All of them can be very useful to a team, and their all very annoying for the opponent to handle as well ;_;. Another point is that Rotom's typing is amazing, in fact, its to amazing that it can run an effective defensive set with 50/77/77 defenses, its that good man. Rotom comes packed with 3 immunities to Normal, Fighting, and Ground, along with resistances to Flying, Bug, Steel, Poison, and Electric! All in exchange for two weaknesses to Ghost and Dark, not bad! Also note that levitate means it doesnt take much from entry hazards either, only being affected by Stealth Rock under normal conditions. Rotom's typing is cool offensively too, electric/ghost are great STABs to have, and are nearly unresisted in the RU tier! All in all, ill be happy to move up Rotom to S, if anyone has any objections, speak now!

    Im kinda surprised that Lilligant and Escavalier got as little discussion about their placement as they did, their both pretty important pokemon in the metagame, and they both have a LOT of positive qualities, but also some negative qualities that might make their position debatable (coverage issues for cress, shitty speed and lack of recovery for escavalier). Im going to keep escavalier as a proposed change because it got literally zero discussion, but your free to keep discussing Lilligant as well.

    Here are the new Proposed changes!

    Smeargle UP from A rank to S rank

    Escavalier DOWN from S rank to A rank

    Ditto UP from C rank to B rank

    Manectric DOWN from B rank to C rank

    Im also going to propose another change here, its time for a pokemon to get out of untested imo!

    Seismitoad UP from Untested Rank to B Rank

    i stated my argument in an earlier post so ill just quote it here

    All else applies except ive now used him for more than 8 battles.

    Another thing to note about toad is that its a decent check to nidoqueen, avoiding the 2HKO from earth power and resisting everything else, while striking back with its own Earth Power.

    Thoughts on the new proposed changes? Do you want one of the other proposed change sthat i didnt make this time around to happen? Feel free to post here if so!
  16. DittoCrow

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    I don't think that Rotom is S Rank material. There's only one set that fulfills Rotom's main job, which is spinblocking, and that's the bulky set. Without the bulky set's EVs, Rotom cannot take on Kabutops and will be worn down much more easily by threats such as Escavalier. I would even go as far to say that any set without Will-O-Wisp is B Rank; it gets trapped way too easily by the likes of Spiritomb, Escavalier, and Drapion, and it can't take many physical hits at all; the Choice Scarf set cannot reliably spinblock and is outclassed in sweeping because it's really weak. Pain Split is also really unreliable and Rotom doesn't get many chances to use it in this offensive metagame; for example, Nidoqueen can 2HKO with just Sludge Wave and thus beats Rotom one-on-one. And as for Rotom being versatile, there's no doubt that it's a guessing game with Rotom's set, but I'm never ever worried upon seeing Rotom in the team preview. Furthermore, Rotom is so, so frail that I don't really think its typing makes up for it; I mean, come on, Escavalier's Megahorn does 53.84 - 63.63% to Bulky Rotom and has a 50% chance to OHKO Rotom after Stealth Rock with Swarm activated, so Rotom can't switch in without being worn down to the point where it's almost useless; the same thing happens after it defeats Kabutops: Rotom is pretty much useless for the rest of the game because it will be so low on health after dealing with these Pokemon that it will be easily revenge killed. I'm getting off topic now, but I think that only the best Pokemon should be in S Rank. Rotom is mediocre at spinblocking, and is very easily worn down in general, which is why I don't think it can perform its roles in the way other S Rank Pokemon do.

    I'm questioning Escavalier's placement in the S Rank as well. Sure, Escavalier has amazing typing, defenses, and Attack, but its movepool is horrible. Escavalier is EXTREMELY easy to switch into, and with no recovery, it gets worn down from Stealth Rock and random moves such as Sceptile's Focus Blast. This makes it susceptible to being KOed by things such as Gallade, Kabutops, and other hard hitters like Hitmonlee. Escavalier's Speed is what causes it to be easily worn down—it just can't keep up with the faster, hard hitters after it's weakened. Just some food for thought.

    Molk told me to comment on Seismitoad, so I'll agree that it should be in the B Rank. Seismitoad has great typing, and it has great coverage in the rain with Hydro Pump, Earth Power, and Sludge Wave. I've swept with it a few times, even outside of rain teams. It's definitely a solid Pokemon!

    Also I agree with Texas and think that Manectric should be moved to the B or C Rank :<
  17. Molk

    Molk Crustle knocked off the opposing Rhydon's Assault Vest!
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    What the fuck, i could have sworn i put manectric in B when i first made this list, ill fix that right now.......


    Anyways, keep posting guys!
  18. /B/utterfree

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    When I had the thread, people wanted Manetric moved from B Rank to A Rank. I agreed with them, and up it went. However, Manetric can go back down if the current metagame is that harmful to it.
  19. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    I agree with DittoCrow's sentiments. When I see a Rotom, I see an electric-type and a ghost-type inferior to its RU counterparts. When I used Rotom, I was wondering why I don't have a Rotom-C or Spiritomb instead. I guess Rotom gets the job of both done, but it does them poorly, imo.

    Escavalier is a powerful Pokemon, but its Speed is easily exploitable, and there are couple of safe switch-ins, such as Moltres and Steelix, that makes it Escavalier less than S material.
  20. New Breed

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    Okay so alot has been said about Smeargle and whether or not it is S material, I would like to have my say.

    Smeargle, like Uxie is extremely versatile, being able to run a multitude of sets such as the Hazards set, Trick Room setter, QuiverPass and ShiftGear Pass. Being able to do it's role as well as if not better than any Pokemon in the tier. Smeargle may not have any surprise factor and DittoCrow is correct in saying that Pokemon such as Uxie, Drapion, Gallade are running Lum Berry to beat it and other Pokemon such as Magmortar, Primeape and Bouffalant are using their ability to also beat it.

    However the sheer threat of Smeargle Baton Passing some boosts or setting up hazards all over someones team can often play into the Smeargle users advantage. Smeargle is often spammed mindlessly in the lead position, allowing those Pokemon that DittoCrow mentioned to prevent Smeargle from doing his job, but it doesn't have to be that way. When looking at Team Preview its almost always blatantly obvious as to what your opponents Smeargle counter will be, allowing you to take advantage of this and lead with something that has a favourable match up.

    As it has been stated, Smeargle only gets one opportunity to do his job and that is all he needs. You send out the wrong Pokemon and at best Smeargle only gets SR up and at worst Smeargle cripples one of your Pokemon and sets up multiple hazards.

    The definition of of the S Tier is: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.

    Imo, Smeargle fits this to a tee.
  21. Silvershadow234

    Silvershadow234 :]]]]]

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    I really think that Escavalier should be stay in the S tier.

    A lot has been said about it's great typing and decent defences, and then people have focused on it's middling speed stat, as though it doesn't work that well in this offensive metagame. However, Escavalier actually works wonders in this metagame, as it is so hard for offensive teams to switch into. Moltres is 1HKO'd by Return after Stealth Rock if it tries to switch in, while Nidoqueen is 1HKO'd by Iron Head. Anything else that's offensive, such as Kabutops, falls to the sheer power of Megahorn. Common revenge killers, like Sceptile and Rotom-C also fail to 1HKO Escavalier back and then get destroyed back. It's not like Escavalier can't come in on anything easily either. Cryogonal, Uxie, Amoonguss after sleep clause, Jynx, Fraxure and Sawsbuck are just a few of the things it can switch in on with ease. It has it's counters, but defensive teams in general are on decline and with that are it's counters like Poliwrath and Steelix.

    Escavalier isn't just limited to offense though. Defensive RestTalk tank sets are very effective at shutting down many top sweepers, such as the aforementioned Lilligant and is one of the best switch-ins to Tangrowth in the metagame, and lots of others as well(that I forgot :P).

    Overall, Escavalier is really strong, wrecks offensive teams, has good bulk and a great typing. It is sort of versatile as well, being able to go full-out offensive and rather defensive as well. Definitely S class material.

    Another mon I feel is really under-rated is Crustle. Crustle just works so well as an anti-lead at the moment, being able to beat Smeargle, Uxie, Mesprit and Aerodactyl, 3 of the most common leads at the moment. He also is able to get up 2 layers of hazards and possibly a hit off versus Druddigon. Although he doesn't have access to Spore, he is able to beat Cryogonal trying to spin your hazards away, which is something that Smeargle can't do. I'm not sure if Weak Armour activates upon each hit of Rock Blast, but if it does then you can beat Kabutops as well. At full health, it can act as a makeshift check to lots of stuff like Lilligant and Substitute Sceptile that can quite easily stop Smeargle.

    Although he doesn't have the versatility of Smeargle or Spore, he is a great hazard setter and anti-lead, and IMO should be A rank.
  22. lars

    lars

    Joined:
    May 17, 2011
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    I was the one that suggested Manectric move up to A rank.

    I used Manectric earlier in the year and, yes, I agree it was slightly better then.

    However, it is still very good. A rank material in my opinion. The biggest difference in my current Manectric playstyle with it's play in the past is you need to be more careful with volt switch. I use overheat much more often now.

    Nidoqueen is hardly a safe switch in when 2 overheats do minimum of 75% (91% max) Nidoqueen can take hardly any residual damage to be a safe switch.

    Lanturn is obviously a problem, but easily worked around. Put a good counter to Lanturn on your team and bait the switch every time. Funny how people never expect you to actually just switch when you have volt switch. Mind games aside, Manectric still has it's ace in the hole for Lanturn with Switcheroo.

    It either outright destroys or goes at least even (obviously scouting ability gives you the easy way to get a counter in) with 80% of top 25 in the tier.

    Unless you run random ground types or Lanturn with Air mail, Manectric will either beat or cripple something every game. It's the best or in the top 2 scarf scouts in RU and checks so many dangerous things.

    Very much still A rank material even if it can't spam volt switch as much as it could before


    Edit @Silvershadow. It does activate for every hit of rock blast, but Kabutops doesn't need to have that ability and will otherwise easily beat Crustle in probably 90% of common situations (you need to catch a no defensive investment Kabutops (with weak armor) with a 5 hit rock blast to KO. 16.6% chance.

    I do agree crustle is an underrated hazard lead, but right now I would have to say it is still B rank.
  23. Silvershadow234

    Silvershadow234 :]]]]]

    Joined:
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    The point is that it means that tops can't spin easily on Crustle like it can with Smeargle. Once Smeargle has sleep clause activated, tops can come in and just spin away the hazards. But with Crustle, it has to be wary of that Rock Blast as it can actually 1HKO it-it may be a 16.6 chance, but if that Rock Blast hits five times then you have just lost your spinner, and it's going to be seriously weakened even if it doesn't kill. The majority of Kabutops do run Weak Armour at the moment, as Tops can beat a lot of its counters at +1 speed like Sceptile with Stone Edge, and only defensive sets(which are really not that good at spinning or revenge killing with Aqua jet), and the only reason for running Swift Swim is to beat rain teams, which are not all that common. Crustle also beats every single lead at the moment, or can at least set-up two layers of hazards, which is the main reason you would use Crustle, not just beating spinners.

    I really don't think Rotom should be S tier. Remember, it can't actually switch into Kabutops, as Stone Edge/Waterfall does a ton of damage. It has to switch in on a predicted spin or after a kill, and although it can switch in on Escavalier, unless it has Will-O-Wisp it's still going to lose. Even with Will-O-Wisp, it can't recover it's health so SubWisp Rotom will eventually lose to Escavalier.
  24. speed ghilliesniper

    speed ghilliesniper

    Joined:
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    148
    I'd like to put in a vote for seismitoad to be moved from untested rank into B rank. From my experience, it's served a very versatile and effective poke on a rain team as it can fulfill multiple roles very well.

    With a support set it acts as a great rain setter and hazard layer wrapped into one with it's access to stealth rock and rain dance. Water absorb is a great ability from the dream world gives it a second immunity to water types which can allow it to stop opposing water types from abusing your own rain and rampaging your team. It's typing is a mixed bag, granting it a superb electric immunity which is welcome on a rain team, while also giving it an unfortunate 4x grass weakness. An interesting niche it has is with a resistance to rock which along with water absorb it cleanly counters opposing swift swim kabutops on non rain dance teams, coming in on a spin or swords dance and threatening back with a super effective stab earth power or stab and rain boosted hydro pump.

    With an offensive rain setting set it can use swift swim to abuse the very rain it sets. With a base 85 spa it's no slouch offensively, and with sludge wave and it's unique 74 base speed it becomes a superb ludicolo check against opposing rain teams, while even being a decent revenge killer on opposing grass types in general. Dual water ground stabs are excelent as an offensive typing, and form great offensive type synergy with other swift swimmers such as kabutops or ludicolo.

    With all this going for it, one might ask why only B rank? The reason is, while it's a fantastic poke on rain teams capable of filling multiple roles fantastically, outside of a rain team all of it's sets are pretty much outclassed, with uxie out classing it as a hazard setter, while nidoqueen does everything it can do better offensively. But, past these short comings it's one of the best pokes available in it's niche, acting as a fantastic asset with either one of it's sets on any potential rain team in RU.
  25. Molk

    Molk Crustle knocked off the opposing Rhydon's Assault Vest!
    is a Tutoris a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
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    Okay, making a few changes right now.

    These are the changes ive decided to enforce after seeing all your arguments ^_^.


    Ditto UP from C rank to B rank

    Smeargle UP from A rank to S rank

    Escavalier DOWN from S rankE rank because of TLC's teachings to A rank

    Manectric DOWN from A rank to B rank

    Rotom-N DOWN from S rank to A rank

    Seismitoad UP from Untested Rank to B Rank

    So basically, i made all the changes that were proposed, lol. I agreed with all of them, and i guess i overestimated rotom quite a bit ;_;. Im really happy about the support for seismitoad, and there were no arguments for or against ditto on the forums, but quite a bit on irc, so i moved it up. Escavalier is being moved down for now because of the flaws Dittocrow and Pocket mentioned, but its still an excellent pokemon! Smeargle has also been moved up to S rank thanks to its amazing support capabilities, similar to Deoxys-D in OU, actually. Manectric is being moved down on request, and i think B rank is a good place for it, it still has a niche as a volt switch user, electric immunity, and fast revenge killer with a scarf, it can also run expert belt rather well, but its often overshadowed by things like Rotom-N and Rotom-C, so its not A rank. I actually moved manectric a long time ago and forgot, and accidentally moved him to C rank xD. Fixing that now!!!

    Also, here are the new proposed changes for this round!

    Crustle UP from B rank to A rank

    Im sorry, i really cant say much about crustle because i havent used it in a while, but beating uxie, aero, and smeargle 1 on 1 seems pretty interesting, feel free to put in your opinions on its standing!

    Also, just a reminder that none of the changes i made here are permanent, if you disagree with something, you can ask me to veto it in this thread, then the rest of the forum can discuss its standing!

    Great discussion guys ^_^

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