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Gen 5 The RU Viability Ranking Thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Molk, Oct 5, 2012.

  1. atomicllamas

    atomicllamas but then what's left of me?
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    Hi, so to give a warning to this post (I've been drinking, lol), I really disagree with moving poliwrath all the way down to high C from High B, as it is strictly not out classed by Alomomola. While wish and regenerator definitely give Alomomola the edge over Wrath, Poliwrath has the advantage of being able to phase dangerous set up sweepers, such as Durant, where as Alomomola can only fish for a burn with scald. I will say Poliwrath could probably drop down to mid B or something, as it does face a lot of competition, but reality is that Poliwrath is just a much better hazard abuser than Alomomola, even though it needs heal bell support a little more than it's biggest competition ;). High C is just much too low for the best bulky water phaser in the RU tier. Unlike Alomomola, it also has the opportunity to be some sort of attacker as well, with decent 85 attack and dual STAB with nice coverage.

    Celever, you are also way off on Tauros, as it is probably the 2nd best lure for prominent physical walls in the tier (Steelix and Tangrowth) as neither can switch into a move and then survive Fire Blast. In fact, the only better wall breaker that manages to lure in and kill those two walls is Absol, but it has a much lower base speed, and lacks sheer force to boost its moves. I definitely think that Tauros deserves to stay mid A with its mixed sheer force set and substitute endeavor, which can break even more walls such as Alomomola, allowing a physical attacker to sweep the opponents team late game. If anything I would rather see Absol up to High A as the strongest priority user in the tier as well as a great mixed attacker, wall breaker and lure, I don't see how anyone could be opposed to this. I have also been changing my absol to a 252 Atk/4 SpA/252 Spe Naive spread to outspeed the neutral nature 80's that outspeed the tier and kill them with superpower before they can do anything (I mostly mean tops). Absol also has the nice ability to put the top mon Slowking, in check mate with Pursuit and a dread plate, which is really nice (esca risks a faster fire blast, or a trick room and a slower Fire blast).

    Summary: Poliwrath stays Top B or Mid B, Tauros stays Mid A, Absol moves up to High A
  2. ss234

    ss234 bop.

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    Celever your arguments for b rank tauros are terrible. Miltank does not give tauros competition at all(tauros is faster, more powerful, has sheer force and fire blast-may as well as say munchlax gives it competition), nobody runs substitute on tauros as fire blast kills esca, durant, growth and steelix and idg how tauros is reliant on team matchup at all. The only physical walls it outright loses too are mola and thats about it considering zen headbutt kills wrath and fire blast deals with other physical walls. And p much every physical attacker gets walled by big fish so that's hardly just a tauros fault. Golurk takes loads from sheer force zen headbutt(i.e. 40% or more)and then fails to ko back with eq so again not particularly sure why you brought that up.

    Also in regards to kangaskhan comparison-yes kanga does perform well against offense and is also bulky, but tauros has much better coverage. Fire blast is huge vs. steelix, esca, growth and durant-all hugely popular mons that kanga struggles with. Tauros also hits much harder with its coverage moves, and rock climb is powerful enough as well.

    Basically, tauros should stay mid a because v fast, bulky on the physical side, good coverage and strong plus doesn't take LO recoil thanks to sheer force.
    Magcargo likes this.
  3. C AllStar

    C AllStar

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    Poliwrath definitely should not be dropped. The amount of thing s it check is tremendous including Aggron, Escavalier, Entei, Durant, Kabutops etc. Relying on resttalk as recovery sucks, but not when you have Circle Throw and Scald. Any 'counter' switching in has a 33.3% chance to be phazed while ghost types and physical attackers will be crippled by the scald burn. You can't even predict your opponent's move since it is totally random. Most of the time Poliwrath can shuffle pass the sleeping turns all by itself. Not to mention Roselia, Misdreavus, Clefable are all great mons to pair with poliwrath that learns Heal Bell/Aromatherapy. Polwrath should rather be moved up to Low-A rank.


    The main thing I want to talk about is Electivire. I think Electivire is better off in Low-B rank. There has been all the bad rap for it since the start of RU with people saying that it lacks power to do anything but this isn't quite true. It may lack sheer power of traditional wallbreakers such as Aggron, Emboar etc but it coverage counts. Everyone should know how Electivire's coverage hits like everything super effectively but most people still trash it with the reason 'super effective does not equal to ko'. While that is true that Electivire seldom OHKO things, STAB Wild Charge coming from a 123 base attack is quite spammable and the damage helps to break through walls. For example, Wild Charge + Flamethrower has about 70% chance to 2HKO Physically Defensive Tangrowth. Some high rank pokes such as Sigilyph and Tauros also seldom OHKO things but they are still good. While they have other cool traits giving them ability to serve more roles, Electivire also has its unique qualities to make it stand out.


    Many think that Electivire sucks against bulkier pokemon that isn't weak to its moves or imensely physical bulky pokemon that is not weak to Flamethrower. This isn't entirely true. The pokemon falling into this category includes Uxie, Mesprit, Spiritomb, Rhydon, Rotom-N, Crustle, Misdreavus etc. Out of these, Mesprit and Spiritomb are actually cleanly 2HKOed by the underrated power of LO Wild Charge(Spiritomb requires prediction though and 252/252+ varients are only 2HKOed 30% of the time) while Misdreavus and even Utility Crustle has a chance to be 2HKOed after rocks (very very slim though). Uxie and Rhydon fairs better with their immense physical bulk but Uxie can't do much back either thanks to Electivire's access to Motor Drive while Rhydon has a small chance to be 2HKOed by EQ (requires prediction). Only bulky varients of Rotom really counter it if not counting stupid things like Quagsire. However, my main point is NONE of those so called counters have reliable recovery and are prone to be worn down. Uxie while only take damage from rocks, lacks recovery and baits for Pursuit. Rhydon doesn't even have leftovers recovery and usually won't be able to take hits till late game. The metagame is actually kind to Electivire for making pokemons that can take him from him easy to wear down (except Quagsire lol).


    Other complains about Electivire include 95 base speed being not fast enough and being too frail. RU is SLOWER than NU that 95 is quite fast for RU's standard, outspeeding many dangerous offensive threats like Moltres, Kabutops, Gallade etc. Saying it being easily revenged by scarfers is simply dumb because that applies to any pokemon. Druddigon is easily removed when spamming CB Outrage, Sceptile can be revenged by any scarfers bar Rotom-C w/out hp fire. Elecivire may be worn down quickly with LO and Wild Charge recoil but who cares when it wrecks shit before dying just like Emboar (I'm still not convinced by this being Low-S, but whatever). While it is somewhat frail, it's bulk isn't exactly terrible where it can survive any hit from LO Sigilyph even after rocks(it shouldn't be taking this though).


    While Electivire has certain notable flaws including reliance of hazards to OHKO stuffs and unable to contribute to team defensive synergy, its ability to wreck stall and balanced, the most popular playstyle in RU should be recognized. It needs some support in terms of hazards and wearing down it's checks and counters a bit but this again applies to most pokemon. It deserves Low-B rank in RU.


    Another thing I want to talk about is moving Ferroseed down to Low-B rank. The metagame is extremely unkind to him with Escavalier stands out as a top threat which leads to rise in random fire moves. It loses to many of the S and A rank mons now.


    Druddigon: Fire Punch is on the rise while Flamethrower is standard on mixed set. More people are using Dragon Claw over Outrage to prevent locking

    Slowking: Who uses Slowking without Fire blast?

    Entei: lol
    Sceptile: Hp fire is on the rise, Focus Blast still hurts
    Emboar: lol
    Escavalier: Megahorn easily 2HKOes
    Kabutops: It fairs well against Kabutops except the rare Superpower varients
    Uxie: U-turns out while leaving Ferroseed against a counter but gives a free layer if stays in (not to mention SubCM sweeps)
    Durant: 2HKOes with either STAB + Superpower
    Gallade: lol
    Moltres: lol
    Qwilfish: Taunt+Spikes bait
    Rotom-C: Rise of hp fire with E-belt while the standard Volt Switch sill does not do it any favor
    Sigilyph: Heat Wave says hi
    Absol: Superpower + Fire Blast
    Alomomola: Spikes bait, not common though
    Lilligant: Pray that it is hp fire QD varient and it still hasn't use sleep powder.
    Mesprit: Usually U-turns but will be spikes bait if it stays in
    Spiritomb: Another Spikes bait if lacking Trick

    Steelix: Can only Roar lol
    Tangrowth: I yet to see a tangrowh lacking hp fire
    Tauros: Fire Blast
    Accelgor: Focus Blast
    Aggron: Good check to Aggron but loses to Fire Punch/Superpower
    Golurk: No Guard Dynamic Punch/Iron Fist Fire Punch
    Omastar: Ferroseed hard counters this (losing one on one if lacking Seed Bomb though while Support Omastar can actually set up along it) Rhydon: Depending on the set, Support Rhydon 3HKOes while CB can 2HKO
    Rotom-N: When is it not volt switching?

    Out of the 29 A and S rank pokes, it can only reliably set up spikes on 4 of them with their common sets while semi decently checking another 4. A major issue of Ferroseed is a number of pokes that it should be countering with its typing are usually U-turning/Volt Switching, giving it no free turns to do its job of spike stacking. It is more of an liability now especially with random hp fires are used on Amoongus and stuffs which grants it even less opportunities to set up spikes. It may have some cool resistance to wall some top tier threats but isn't really as great as before due to metagame shifts. Low-B should be the right place for this spinning spiker.
  4. Energy

    Energy
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    Zangoose to mid B

    Yes I understand with Toxic Orb its attack reaches broken levels.

    Only base 90 speed, quick attack needs hazard support to KO sweepers from max. Lots of stuff with priority and protect that hinders its ability to sweep. If goose runs no protect it is very hard to set up unless its revenging something with quick attack. If goose runs protect it suffers from lack of coverage and cannot hit Steelix or ghost types.

    Scarf Rotom-n is very very popular and grabs momentum all over goose stuff like Kangaskhan use Fake Out then sucker punch... Never really been scared of Zangoose, while its definitely a potent pokemon I have never had trouble with it and think it is walled by lots of things.
  5. Molk

    Molk Godlike Usmash
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    Alright this kinda died because x/y and stuff but its time for some updates!

    Last edited: Oct 22, 2013
  6. Arkian

    Arkian What's wrong with being confident?
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    This should liven up discussion a bit:

    [​IMG]Magneton from High B-Rank to Low/Mid A-Rank:
    The reason for this is simple: Magneton does what it's assigned to do very well. Magneton is mostly used in RU to trap and dispose of troublesome Steel-type Pokemon such as Escavalier and Ferroseed, and it does that very well. That isn't the only role it has in RU; it is the strongest Electric-type in the tier, giving it a niche as a revenge killer or wallbreaker with its Choice Specs and Choice Scarf sets, respectively. Magneton can also utilize its decent defensive typing to play a more defensively-oriented role, which is by far one of the safest ways to get rid of Escavalier, a rising threat in today's metagame. Although its Speed is low, and its bulk is meh without Eviolite, Magneton does what it's meant to and a little more, which makes it deserving of A-Rank imo.

    [​IMG]Escavalier from Low S-Rank to Mid S-Rank:
    Escavalier is a bulky Pokemon, with a good defensive typing to boot. Combine that with its huge 130 base Attack, and you've got yourself a monster of a tank. Its Choice Band set destroys even resists, which are common due to its semi-poor offensive typing. Furthermore, it has access to Pursuit, allowing it to trap and dispose of common threats such as Slowking and Uxie (Scald burn from the former stinks though :(). Yes, it is horribly slow, but it doesn't necessarily need to be too fast since it has great defenses to tank attacks with. Moreover, it can turn its horrendous Speed into an advantage by utilizing Trick Room support. The only thing keeping this monster from Top A-Rank is its vulnerability to Fire-type moves (which can be avoided by holding an Occa Berry, since teams usually only carry one Fire-type), and to a lower degree, its sluggish Speed.

    [​IMG]Haunter from Mid C-Rank to Low B-Rank:
    Yes Haunter is extremely frail, yes it isn't overly fast and faces a lot of competition from Rotom-N, and yes, it is defeated by commonly seen tanks such as Druddigon and Boufallant. Despite all those points, Haunter is a pretty good Pokemon is RU. It has a lot of offensive prowess, and its higher Speed, power, and better typing differentiate it from Rotom-N. Haunter is capable of utilizing a fearsome SubDisable strategy, in which it just needs one mere switch-in to come in and wreck. Furthermore, its Choice Scarf and Life Orb sets have the capability of running Destiny Bond, which it can use as a last-ditch sort of strategy and aid teammates by removing a potential check/counter (taking out Pokemon such as the aforementioned Druddigon and Boufallant while also ridding the battle of the opponent's Durant or Hitmonlee). Haunter's Speed isn't that bad for RU, sitting at a comfortable base 95, which it can use to outspeed threats such as Emboar, Gallade, and Rotom-N. Haunter's defensive typing + ability also give it tons of switch-in opportunities to mitigate for its horrible defenses. These keen advantages should lend Haunter a place in B-Rank, even if it is at the bottom (due to frailty and competition...).

    Feel free to oppose ^.^
  7. ss234

    ss234 bop.

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    bumb because wynaut

    re: rhydon to mid / high a

    Honestly, rhydon is very good in the current metagame. It counters entei, tauros, absol, rotom with ease really, and you also handle druddigon well thanks to the ridiculous bulk. Other mons like bulky cm sigi and aggron can also be dealt with nicely by rhydon, as well as most flying types bar hp grass moltres. Ye rhydon has flaws i.e. its slow and weak to grass and water, but that doesn't change the fact that rhydon can deal with some of the scariest pokes in ru with ease AND has offensive presence, unlike say mola. STAB eq and stone edge / rock blast, as well as megahorn for coverage vs. rotom-c means that rhydon is pretty difficult to switch into if you don't have tangrowth / mola. Alternatively, you can run a choice band-admittedly you do lose a lot of bulk, but jesus christ you hit hard(i.e. 2HKO'ing tangy with megahorn, 2HKO'ing alomomola with a bit of prior damage). So yeah, rhydon handles some incredibly dangerous pokes, sets up sr nicely and has good offensive presence. I'm not sure whether its mid a or high a but I definitely feel like its better than low a-it does have big flaws after all, but I definitely feel like its better than low a.
    Shame That, Magcargo, Celever and 4 others like this.
  8. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent
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    Alomomola for low S rank

    I've recently started playing RU again, and Alomomola is just absolutely incredible. This is a wall that can outstall entire teams with minimal support, and the funny thing? It doesn't even need to be on a stall team; in fact I personally prefer to run it on a a bulkyish offensive team, as it can act as a marvelous pivot, and heal pretty much every Pokemon on it up to full HP again. You just need some Pokemon to cover its weaknesses (the Lilligant/Druddigon/Magneton core is ideal for this, as they all resist both Grass and Electric). I still just can't stress enough how many Pokemon this thing beat 1o1, so just to clarify I'll go down the viability list and check just how many they actually are.

    S Rank
    Druddigon, Slowking, Entei, Emboar, Kabutops

    A Rank
    (kinda) Durant, Absol, Golurk, Steelix, Tauros, (kinda) Aggron

    B Rank
    (choice) Braviary, Cinccino, Hitmonlee, Aerodactyl, Bouffalant, Kangaskhan, Medicham, (makes offensive a liability) Miltank, Swellow, Carracosta, Feraligatr, Hariyama (kinda) Klinklang, Piloswine, Regirock, Rhydon

    and a bunch of stuff from the lower ranks as well. You can quite literally just sit there and alternate between Wish, Toxic, and Protect, while throwing a stab move out there now and then. Alomomola is also pretty damn hard to Toxic stall, as it has so much recovery. It sounds lame, but this thing just never seems to die, and honestly there isn't much you can do to stop it, as the above list show how many Pokemon it can just come in on and get a free Toxic off, switch out when the opponent does bring in something that beats it and come back in later in the game when the opponent eventually brings out their Toxic'd mon, and that's the point where it can start its Wish shenanigans. Entire good teams are often hardwalled by the combination of Alomomola and one of its partners, and that to me is the definition of one of the best Pokemon in the tier, and deserving of S rank. Normally S Rank in viability rankings is just bloated by offensive Pokemon, but the fact that Uxie and (hopefully) Alomomola are in it just shows how diverse and fun RU is :)
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2013
    Nails, Santuga, Shuckleking87 and 3 others like this.
  9. ss234

    ss234 bop.

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    Ya mola is an incredibly pokemon and does wall a huge amount of the metagame as you posted(in fact you forgot some, such as golurk and rhydon), and while it is a lot more dangerous with pokemon such as roselia, cryo and clefable etc. for support, it is still an incredibly good poke without them thanks to wish, regen and the ability to wall such a huge amount of the tier. It really is very centralising. No other mon walls such a huge amount of pokemon in the tier without getting worn down, and no other poke in the tier brings the support that mola has(enormous wishes, ability to wall loads of dangerous pokes). So yeah mola for low s rank pls.
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2013
    Grey Knight likes this.
  10. speed ghilliesniper

    speed ghilliesniper

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    I honestly don't see mola being in S tbh. It's fantastic at walling physical attackers but in all honesty it doesn't beat all of them as anything that boosts with either a lum or sub has a decent shot at getting through it. Plus some things just have the sheer offensive might to break through her thanks to her sometimes blah pure water typing that other mons such as Poliwrath can handle. As for calcs, mola is a wall so it's going to be switching into things so 2HKO's are what you're trying to avoid (pure attacking calcs are assuming switching into rocks and a protect to give 2 rounds of lefties, offsetting each other. Boosters are with lefties factored):

    Druddigon: 252+ Atk Choice Band Druddigon Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 255-300 (47.7 - 56.1%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO Not 100% and there's a chance of only a 2 turn Outrage but I still wouldn't call mola a counter if it needs to rely on a 2 turn Outrage or double Protect to survive %85 of the time.

    Slowking: Defensive slowking can run toxic which hurts mola bad and forces an awkward both teams bulky water is poisoned which is kinda bad. Plus both have Regenerator meaning neither is completely screwed just hindered. Or, alternatively specs is relatively common in higher play and this happens:
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Slowking Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola: 334-394 (62.5 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    Being locked into grass knot is sub par and bait for a roselia or amoonguss but Slowking has Regenerator as well so it's also very hard to wear down meaning it can go toe to toe with Mola as far as durability through the match.

    Kabutops: +4 252 Atk Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 373-439 (69.8 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    This is with Jolly Lum Kabutops, which can boost on the switch, boost again as you toxic and burn the Lum then 2HKO with a +4 Stone Edge. It'll end up eating a toxic in the process but it'll still come out on top assuming both Stone Edges hit. Again not 100% chance to beat mola but definitely isn't countered by mola 100% of the time.

    Durant: +2 252 Atk Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 288-340 (53.9 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Unless Mola runs Scald and gets very lucky with 2 burns in a row Lum Durant will boost on the switch, boost again on the first scald and 2HKO with a +2 x-Scissor

    Aggron: 252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 297-351 (55.6 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    Not even close, as long as Head Smash hits twice it's a dead fish. This was the bane of my mola stall team as this alongside Escavalier 2HKOing with Megahorn is why Poliwrath is sometimes superior on full stall. Anybody who doesn't run Band on their Aggron isn't manly and deserves to be walled by a pink fish.

    Braviary: 252+ Atk Choice Band Braviary Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 258-304 (48.3 - 56.9%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO Your bird is basically dead from recoil but the fish is too 90% of the time. Scarf is walled hard but sub bulk up will also come out on top assuming it boosts or subs on the switch.

    Now then, After all this I still think Alomomola is a very effective and amazing mon in this meta and is honestly probably deserving of High A because unless the mons above are running that specific set or item and are played perfectly and have no misses on moves notorious for accuracy like Stone Edge they can and will lose. But unfortunately sometimes Alomomla just can't beat certain physical threats it needs to. Combine this with the fact it's utter set up bait for anything with a sub, or a free switch or boost for anything with a lum, and a complete one trick pony that faces stiff competition from other bulky waters such as Slowking (who's more versatile), Poliwrath (better typing and phazing) and Lanturn (volt switch, heal bell, can actually beat Moltres) who all have their own niche all really sway me from voting it into S rank.
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2013
  11. C AllStar

    C AllStar

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    I really think that you are underestimating Alomomola. Mola isn't supposed to be walling every physical attacker in existance, but rather being the best initial response to every one of them. Take NU as an example, while mola cannot directly counter CB Sawk since it is 2HKOed by Close Combat, it can scout for its move and switch into something like Haunter when confirming it is locked into CC, recovering sufficient health to take hits afterwards thanks to Regenerator. This is pratically the same case in RU as mola can take a hit and switch into corresponding check when facing a physical threat. This alone makes mola a precious pivot for offensive teams since offense cannot afford to have counters for every single threat in the tier. Having Wish + Regenerator is also one of the key factors for mola to be successful since it can recover both its own health and its partners health in one turn, making it the single best wishpasser in RU.

    According to your calcs, many things like CB Druddigon and CB Braviary can barely 2HKO mola with a small chance which isn't even including protect. I don't really get why you think mola will be killed since from then on, mola can simply wish+protect to stall or wishpass when the opposite side switches. Mola's sheer bulk and utility of wish gives it a position in both offensive and defensive teams and therefore should be fitted in Low S.
    Shuckleking87 and Nails like this.
  12. speed ghilliesniper

    speed ghilliesniper

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    The NU example really doesn't matter much to me since it's a completely different meta with less insane physical nukes, and furthermore it's not even S there. In my calcs I was assuming a layer of rocks, the 12% taken by switching in is equal to 2 turns of leftovers after a protect which is why they're bare calcs. If you try and wish pass of that you're asking to get 2HKO'd by those 2 examples. And if you're scouting in those cases, then what? Most defensive and even balanced teams will often carry a steel type such as Steelix since they compliment each other very well, but what other than Alomomola on an offensive team can take a CB Druddigon Outrage or CB Braviary Brave Bird? Usually the answer is nothing, meaning you have to lose you're wall or sack an offensive mon to get a revenge killing opportunity.

    This is one reason why I don't like Alomomola in S, it's a fantastic wall and beats many threats but it simply can't take some of the biggest nastiest Banded offensive nukes of the tier like Druddigon, Escavalier, Aggron, and Braviary. I hate to compare offensive and defensive threats but the former 2 are S for this reason, they have the power, bulk, and typing to come in and immediately threaten something, even the best physical walls in the game such as Tangrowth, Uxie and, yes, even Alomomola. Realistically the only way to stop these is with massive bulk and a resistance, which is something that offensive teams often can't spare as with an Alomomola and a Steelix together then they need something to stop special threats such as Clefable, but then half your team is defensive mons and you can't really call yourself an offensive team at that point.

    Finally, I can't stress how bad of set up bait it is for any special attacker with a lum, of even some physical attackers with a lum and don't even get me started on substitute users. It's lack of use outside of one roll and inability to completely do that roll 100% of the time while being set up bait for many dangerous threats just makes me very hesitant to put it into S rank. Comparing it to other defensive S-ranked mons, Uxie can run it's usual rocks defensive set that checks many physical threats, plus Dual Screens which it's one of the best at, plus even being able to run a devastating offensive set in sub cm make it S, and Slowking can run either defensive, Specs, Calm Mind, Nasty Plot, or even offensive Trick Room both 3 attack and TR + Nasty Plot which is why it's one of the best mons in the tier. Both of these mons have the utility to be among the best, and the offensive threats have a far shorter list of counters that they should be beating (such as physical mons walled by special walls) than Alomomola does with physical mons beating it.
  13. Celever

    Celever

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    It seems to me like you guys want Alomomomola to wall every physical attacker in the tier. No, he is a bulky pivot who happens to be pretty fantastic at taking Physical hits but... really the main reason you want to use her is huge Wish-Passes and not needing to use those wishes yourself because of Regenerator. Uxie can't take every hit in the tier, Uxie is S-Rank because while she has incredibly little offensive presence she has the support movepool to do work. You can't say that Uxie shouldn't be S-Rank because she can't use a Choice Band, and can only do one role effectively...

    S Rank: Reserved for the top threats in the RU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well with little to no extra support. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this tier have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

    Alomomomola also has low risk high reward most of the time. While yes, Alomomomola is weak to special attacks that's what the "little support" gives her access too - a Clefable or Slowking or something. Low-S
  14. electricwolf

    electricwolf

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    Alomamola is such Substitute-bait it hurts. It's not like there are a shortage of 'mons in RU that can learn it either: There's over 50 that can learn it and a good portion of those are faster than Alomamola and can set up a sub that can't be broken in one turn by Alomamola. A good amount of them also have access to status moves, set-up moves and general things that you don't want happening to you.

    Taunt also renders it useless, especially if the Taunt-user resists Waterfall. Qwilfish and Whimsicott are both good Taunt users and can then start setting up themselves with either statuses, spikes, subseed etc.

    It's also hideously frail on the special side and a fair few 'mons carry some move that is both super effective and special. If a 'mon carries a super effective special attack, chances are that it'll 2HKO and in some cases, OHKO.
  15. atomicllamas

    atomicllamas but then what's left of me?
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    There are quite a few problems with this post's logic that just really undersell Alomomola's viability in RU. First off, just because a pokemon learns substitute, does not make it a good choice for it to run, Alomomola isn't supposed to be in long enough for them to set up a substitute anyways. Alomomola switches into a physical attack (especially on obvious scarf / band mons) then responds appropriately. It can set up a wish to heal the next thing coming in, use Scald (the fact that you mentioned waterfall negatively affects your credibility :/, the burn chance is like 8000 times better than the slight damage increase) for a chance to burn the opponent, or use toxic on the obvious Electric/Grass switch in. Taunt does not render Alomomola useless at all, as I'm not switching in Alomomola into either of those pokemon (or really any taunt pokemon), and since you are switching into my Alomomola, I can simply switch out Alo, regenerating health, while passing the free wish I got during your switch into something that doesn't really care about your switch in.

    Funny thing is Alomomola isn't even that frail on the special side (well it isn't unless you are running a really stupid spread).

    252 SpA Life Orb Moltres Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 116+ SpD Slowking: 187-222 (47.5 - 56.4%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Life Orb Moltres Hurricane vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Druddigon: 270-320 (79.8 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Moltres Hurricane vs. 136 HP / 120 SpD Alomomola: 374-442 (74 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    252 SpA Rotom Volt Switch vs. 136 HP / 120 SpD Alomomola: 278-330 (55 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Magneton Volt Switch vs. 136 HP / 120 SpD Alomomola: 326-386 (64.5 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    This is the spread I use on Alomomola (with 252+ def obvi) and I find it really useful, as many of the electric types in the tier are choice scarf, and will try to volt switch out, but you can live the hit and cripple the switch in (or wish). The Moltres Calc's show that Alomomola is more specially bulky than a speed creeping Druddigon, and honestly Moltres is a freaking monster.

    Alomomola gains momentum like crazy, can support the team while requiring little extra support from teammates, and can be used to wall certain extremely threatening pokemon. It is certainly worthy of either High A or Low S.
  16. electricwolf

    electricwolf

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    Suggesting Waterfall over Scald affects my credibility?
    The last usage stats I can find (August) suggest that Waterfall is more common on Alomo than Scald and the only sets that include Scald on the mainsite are for UU, not RU. Surely if Scald was better it would be there?
    And if you're using Scald to try and burn physical sweepers then I'd ask why the hell anyone is keeping their physical 'mon in against Alomo? Because it's defences are rather one-sided, if you don't have a special move then staying in is likely a wasted turn.

    I won't deny that Alomo is good for momentum but it can also be bad for momentum. Once you see Alomo in your team and you know what your team does, it's fairly easy to guess when Alomo is coming in. Just severely damaged a 'mon with your physical sweeper? Guess what? The forecast is cloudy with a high chance of Alomo switching in. Because it does exactly one thing, it's extremely easy to predict what it's going to do and requires next-to-no scouting to figure it out.


    What spread you use on Alomo is almost entirely irrelevant and not helpful to the conversation. I could tell you I use 252+ Specs Magneton with Thunderbolt but unless that's what people are commonly using then it's as useless as a fart in the wind.


    I'm not here to deny that Alomo does what it's supposed to do well. Frankly it's the best wish-passer in the tier.
    The problem is that it's so gosh darn predictable which can really limit how useful it is if you find your momentum-grabbing switch has just been predicted and you now face being killed, crippled or giving your opponent a free turn to set-up on.
    I think High-A is where it belongs in this current metagame.
  17. atomicllamas

    atomicllamas but then what's left of me?
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    Just cause the ladder uses something more does not make it better. Any good player will be using scald over waterfall, the analysis isn't necessarily up to date and scald is better, this isn't really up for debate. Also if your response is well I can switch my physical attacker out, the double switch becomes pretty easy to predict.

    For someone who says there are "50+" RU Pokemon who can use substitute, to imply usage is the only thing that matters is pretty silly. This is the viability ranking system, and I can tell you that scald alomomola is more viable than waterfall.

    Who cares if alomomola is predictable, it does its job extremely well while countering 2-4 Pokemon on any given team.

    Also specs magneton is actually really good, lol.
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  18. electricwolf

    electricwolf

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    Is that really true? Most of the S-ranked 'mons are in the top 10 and the As all seem to be in the top 50. Alomo was #55 in September. If it's so good, why aren't more people using it? There's a very high rate of correlation between viability ranking and usage but is suspiciously not the case for Alomo. The only other A-Rank 'mon that's low down in the 1850 rankings is Tauros at #68.
    Why isn't it up for debate? Do you speak for every player now? I think I must have missed that memo.

    If Alomo is your last 'mon then unless their entire team is 4x weak to water then your only chance is toxic stall. Scald is pitiful.
    Assuming you're uninvested into SpA, it fails to get a 2HKO on every variant you are likely to see of Entei, Emboar, Moltres, Golurk, Steelix, Aggron, and in some cases only has a percentage chance to 4HKO.
    If it isn't super effective, it isn't going to break a sub or do any significant damage. The only 'mon you have a chance of killing with an uninvested Scald is Rhydon.
    Even if you imagine it as purely a status move then it has such a shaky proc rate that even if you use it twice, it's still almost 50/50.

    One proc out of one: 30%
    One out of two: 51%
    One proc out of three: 65.7%

    Have you ever had Stone Edge or Focus Blast miss? Both are more likely to hit than Scald is to burn in three uses.

    You seem to think that Scald burns are more likely than they are but it really is not all that reliable. Say you've just switched into a banded Drudd Outrage, that's why you put Alomo in your team, right?
    On the switch-in, you'll take 47.7 - 56.1% damage, healing 6% off. Effectively, 42-50% damage.
    If you go for the Scald and it doesn't proc then you'll take another 47.7 - 56.1% damage.

    It's as likely you'll get the burn as it will that you'd get 2HKO'd. You'll also get guaranteed 2HKO'd if there's any sort of hazard on your side of the field.

    Of course, you can use Protect to effectively give you enough HP to last another turn but even if you get the 51% chance of burn on that extra turn then you'll still get KO'd and then you've lost Alomo.


    If a Pokemon is predictable, it limits it's usefulness. One of the most potent things about Druddigon is that you just don't know what it's running and until then almost any pokemon isn't a guaranteed counter. Heck, even Alomo doesn't counter all the Drudd sets.

    This isn't a debate about Specs Magneton. I just mentioned it as the most recent statistics I can find suggested that less than 20% of people use Specs Magneton. I was trying to make a point out of the fact that we should be talking about common sets seeing as you seemed to use exactly the same argument to effectively deny the existence of Substitute (which effectively renders toxic stall useless).
  19. Celever

    Celever

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    Unfortunately this post will be very short as all of your points can be wrapped up into a couple of simple statements:
    1)Alomomomola is not an offensive threat; damage output does not matter, what matters is the fact that Alomomola takes most physical damage like it is literally nothing and just wishes it off or someone which hasn't been brought up in this particular conversation of switching out -- Regenerator gives it recovery for doing nothing to he opponent and using no attacks, how can his be a bad thing?
    2)Alomomola is NU, as is the other Pokemon you listed as being low, Tauros. Basically this means that the general user of Pokemon showdown will not want to venture into the NU tier as they believe that they are too bad for RU. Nearer end of generations, which was when Alomomola was found to be such a huge threat, there was a hell of a lot of hype for it but not enough to propel it into the RU tier in the final tier shifts which I believe was when the hype really began building up for the caring fish.
    3)There's an unfortunate feature on Pokemon showdown which suggests moves for Pokemon, if you follow the moves that they provide then you often end up with clearly inferior sets compared to using the smogon analysis, this works for EVs as well. Basically, the reason why you see everyone with Waterfall on their Alomomomola instead of Scald is because Pokemon showdown tells them to, this doesn't mean that it is better, not at all...
    4)Jesu Christ stop with the Scald. Basically, scald is the second-most reliable burn in the game by a mile and the only Pokemon in RU who could attempt to use will-o-wisp are Spiritomb, Moltres and Entei and I would only ever use defensive Spiritomb seriously of those three. Scald is the best that we've got... And what you don't seem to understand is this: if there is a 50% chance for something not to work, which you seem to think is quite high, there is also a 50% chance for it to work. Finally, something that I've thought of which is connected to this, Dynamic Punch was very viable on Ampharos gen 2, which had a 50% chance to HIT, never mind have some added effect!
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  20. atomicllamas

    atomicllamas but then what's left of me?
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    Lol, k silly comments aside, this is a really bad way to look at viability rankings, or even how well a pokemon performs in the tier. Sandslash for example is sitting at #47 in the tier in November usage (and this is way lower than usual), while being a low C rank pokemon should we move it up to reflect its higher usage than the rest of the C tier? Dusknoir (low D rank) is #22 in the tier, Dusknoir for B rank, amiright? Snover was sitting in the mid 40's before it was banned, so it clearly wasn't broken, and Gothitelle was in the low 60's and in NU when it was banned from UU, what were they thinking? To be quite honest the usage statistics from the simulator give no indication of viability, as most ladder players have no idea what their using/doing. (Don't even get me started on how low Moltres, Esca, and Durant are in usage, -_-)

    Scald IS better than Waterfall, Waterfall misses the 2hko on all of the pokemon you listed as well, and is just not very good. Scald is far superior because it has a chance to cripple an opponent's pokemon, while Waterfall does marginally more damage. Most of the time Scald damage + burn damage will outdamage Waterfall, but as Celever stated, it isn't about damage its about status (actually Celever's points 1-3 are pretty much spot on oO). And yes, while scald only has a 30% chance to burn, Alomomola has the natural bulk and ability to use scald upwards of 5 times throughout the match.

    This is technically true, however those are the chances of burning AT LEAST once, not just once, so a portion of that 65% of the time you are burning 2 or 3 things, which once again isn't hard to do at all with its bulk and ability.

    I'd also like to point out when talking about usage in relation to viability I strictly meant the moves Alomomola "usually" runs are irrelevant, and we should only be talking about the most viable of its moves. Of course the usage statistics of things you are playing against matters, for example only 17% of Druddigon's are choice band and able to 2HKO Alomomola. Once again however leaving Alomomola in on Druddigon hoping for a burn is not how one should be using Alomomola, the great thing about Alomomola, is that it can switch into the outrage and say, "oh crap" then switch into an Aggron / Steelix / Eviolite Magneton to take on Druddigon with no problem. Switching out also puts Alomomola back at 83% health and allow it to do it again later if you are afraid to switch your steel type into a Choice Band Earthquake (or a life orb sheer force flamethrower in the case of Steelix). The Steel-type pokemon is also easy to keep healthy throughout the match due to Alomomola's giant wishes.

    I think people get caught up in this idea that Alomomola is supposed to be able to wall the whole tier (because it almost does, lol) but Alomomola is simply the best bulky defensive pivot in the tier. With the added bonus of being able to take on many of the top pokemon in the tier, it has extremely favorable match ups with Entei, Druddigon, and Slowking the three most common pokemon in the tier while supporting its teammates. Alomomola is even good on offensive teams keeping stuff like Sceptile and Durant healthy while working as an emergency oh shit button to stuff that nothing on your team wants to take a hit from.

    I was on the fence but screw it, low S from me.

    Celever how could you forget the Rotom forms as good users of will-o-wisp, smh. :p
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  21. Nozzle

    Nozzle

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    I feel slightly embarrased now that i run waterfall alomomola .-.

    I personally like not accidentally burning something that you rather have poisoned and it handles a ton of the tier without burnimg them anyway.

    Low-s for me though.
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2013
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  22. Turtleye

    Turtleye

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    I would vote for Low-s too. Alomo is a great defensive wall/pivot, maybe the best in the tier, and very few Physical mons manage to outright OHKO it. The closest one is Head Smash Archeops but lol who runs that. Also, she just switches out after that and he is in defeatist range.
    Yeah, Alomo is somehwat of a set-up fodder, but that doesn't stop me from using her since the pros outshine the very few cons by far.
    Also she won't be walling the whole tier. No 'mon currently in the tier can. Given the fact that she is a pure water type helps even more since that type is one of the, if not the, best defensive type in the tier.
    Whispassing is great too. She can manage to keep members without recovery to restore HP, which is very useful.

    So yea. Low-s would I see suitable for her.
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  23. atomicllamas

    atomicllamas but then what's left of me?
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    Not letting this forum die, because why not, anyways Molk is to lazy to tell you that after discussion on IRC (with molk, nails, hotncold, silentverse, SS234, and myself) the following changes were made to the list:

    Entei down from Mid S --> Top A
    Emboar down from Low S --> Top A
    Moltres up from Top A --> Mid S

    Due to the presence of bulky waters such as Slowking, Alomomola, and Kabutops, Entei and Emboar are just not S material rn due to the fact that Emboar often has to be choice locked to pull anything off, and Entei has limited coverage getting in its way. Moltres was moved up simply because it has always been one of, if not the most versatile and powerful offensive pokemon in the tier (and can get around these bulky waters thanks to Hurricane or HP grass @_@). Its Stealth Rock weakness was frankly exaggerated when it was originally dropped out of S rank, and that Kabutops is not only an excellent spinner, but it also has amazing synergy with Moltres making them ideal teammates regardless. Moltres also has good bulk, reliable recovery, and the ability to force plenty of switches which somewhat mitigates the Rocks weakness if you are unable to keep them off your side of the field.

    If you do feel like one of these are incorrect, feel free to comment and molk will likely take your opinions into consideration.

    Now for some proposals of my own, I believe that Haunter is sorely underrated at mid C, and that Drifblim is too high in low B.

    Haunter is, and has always been, a great offensive utility pokemon in RU, it has incredible typing and abilities that allow it to switch in on many things regardless of its frail offenses. Destiny Bond, Sub disable, and Sub split allow Haunter to do more than just hit hard and fast, although it does do that too. An immunity to Toxic, and some cool coverage options make it a bitch for stall to face, which is also really nice. I would like to propose Haunter up to low B, although this obviously isn't that important, lol.

    Drifblim is the opposite, the only set I have found worth using is Acro Blimp (unburden calm mind isn't that great in RU). The only reason there is to really use Driblim is on Flying spam teams, because it can burn things that stand in the way like Kabutops or destiny bond to take out something in the way, but it has no real use outside of that (enlighten me if I'm wrong!). I could see this dropping to Mid C, just cause it really only has a very small niche.
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2014
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  24. EonX

    EonX One and Only
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    I'm alive... again. Anyway, considering Mola wasn't moved one way or the other, I'll take my crack at it:

    Ok, so Mola is one of the best physical tanks / walls in the entire tier. If you're a physical attacker and lack a way of hitting her for super effective STAB damage, you're in deep trouble. Between Toxic, Wish, and Protect, she can stay healthy while chipping away at your HP. Mola is basically a defensive pivot that can fully heal most offensive Pokemon in the tier (and even some defensive Pokemon) thanks to the ridiculous size of her Wishes. Even better is Mola's ability, Regenerator. You basically get directly rewarded for helping a teammate as Mola gains 33% of her max HP back just by switching out and letting something else get healed by her Wish. Now, she does have faults. Being unable to touch most Sub users sucks and special attackers make Mola run (or swim?) for the hills. That being said, a strong offensive (or defensive if you use stall) core can usually shore this up (hint, Druddigon is really damn good with this thing) Throw in a little bit of entry hazard support, and Mola will outlast just about every physical attacker in the tier. She is able to wall all or a very significant portion of the physical side of the attacking spectrum, support her team well with Wish, and fit onto offensive and defensive teams alike. I feel like that's enough for Mola to move to Low-S imo.
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  25. Leer

    Leer

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    I would say something about Necroing threads but at this point every post in an RU thread is necroing (;-;).

    To add to the Alomomola discussion, I would also like to see it move to Low-S rank. There is no denying Alo's physical bulk; very few Pokemon that can check it, and most of them are stopped by anything with Earthquake. Yes, it is destroyed by Substitute, but remember, this is Low-S and not Mid-S. Alo is also an asset because of its ability to wish pass, and even then it heals a reliable third of its HP with Regenerator. It comfortably counters two of the three most common fire types in the tier, Entei and Emboar (even with Wild Charge) and can Toxic them or hit back with Scald or Waterfall. Most setup sweepers fail to even 2HKO Alo, and even then if Toxic is used during the set up it can heal with Wish and Leftovers while stalling for toxic at the same time. If Scald is run, Alo gets the 30% chance to add to the already ridiculous bulk. Alo has come through for me many times, not only stalling most of an unprepared team (most common Showdown teams) but also causing numerous forfeits and "rage quits." Yes, I think a nice spot at Low-S would work quite nicely for Alomomola. And yes, Low-S needed to be bolded twice.

    Now, on to other Pokemon and awful opinions.

    In my opinion, Scyther should move up from High-C to Low-B. Now, Scyther probably isn't the most liked Pokemon among high level players, due to its many weaknesses, but let me explain. Scyther is a very versatile mon, with multiple sets. It can run both Choice Scarf and Choice band, as well as Swords Dance or Agility. The Choice Band allows it to hit hard, Choice Scarf gives it a speed advantage over eveything in the tier save Unburden Sceptile (which it can comfortably take hits from sans Acrobatics or HP Fire), the Lum berry allows it to heal while setting up (no explanation needed) and the Eviolite can even give it enough bulk to take a hit. Like Scizor, Scyther has Technician, allowing it to use boosted Aerial Ace, Quick Attack, and Bug Bite, among others. Scyther can also U-Turn, and has a solid nice on U-Turning teams with Lanturn and others. It is glaringly weak to SR, but just about everyone knows about its synergy with the tier's best Rapid Spinner, Kabutops. A handful of Mons can check it, but remember: B Rank, and especially Low-B, means that while it does need a little bit support while being slightly above average, which I believe is a description Scyther fits quite well.

    Now that I've gotten the raises out of the way, I would like to argue for a Pokemon to be lowered: Magmortar. Not very many, if any at all, Magmortars have ever done too much to me. Now, it could just be the set, or the user, or some other factor, but I've never seen a Magmortar do what another fire type, even Typhlosion, could do better. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the primary reason that Magmortar is used is for the Fire and Electric coverage, no? I'm not denying this is good coverage, but Manectric pulls this off just as well as Magmortar does, only instead of hitting harder in Fire it has Electric type STAB, and Manectric can Switcheroo the Choice Specs/Scarf away if it runs that set.. Now, I'm not saying it should move down too much, as it's not that bad (and I'm afraid there's actually some secret set that's actually really good ;-;7) and it does have good coverage. All I'm saying is that it should move down to Low-B rank, a very low-populated rank, putting it on the same level as Feraligatr, Scolipede, Seismitoed, Mismagius, others and hopefully Scyther, Pokemon I believe it is very much on par with. Now, to quote Forrest Gump, "That's all I got to say 'bout that."

    Well, this is been my first post outside of signing up for (and dropping out of, I choked) SPL Farm League, so I hope it looks right and gets considered.

    And one more thing, I'm not sure if this is an error or on purpose, but Magneton is in both Mid and Top A-rank (and if it is an error, you better put it in Top-A).
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2014
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