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Gen 5 The RU Viability Ranking Thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Molk, Oct 5, 2012.

  1. C AllStar

    C AllStar

    Nov 20, 2012
    I really think that you are underestimating Alomomola. Mola isn't supposed to be walling every physical attacker in existance, but rather being the best initial response to every one of them. Take NU as an example, while mola cannot directly counter CB Sawk since it is 2HKOed by Close Combat, it can scout for its move and switch into something like Haunter when confirming it is locked into CC, recovering sufficient health to take hits afterwards thanks to Regenerator. This is pratically the same case in RU as mola can take a hit and switch into corresponding check when facing a physical threat. This alone makes mola a precious pivot for offensive teams since offense cannot afford to have counters for every single threat in the tier. Having Wish + Regenerator is also one of the key factors for mola to be successful since it can recover both its own health and its partners health in one turn, making it the single best wishpasser in RU.

    According to your calcs, many things like CB Druddigon and CB Braviary can barely 2HKO mola with a small chance which isn't even including protect. I don't really get why you think mola will be killed since from then on, mola can simply wish+protect to stall or wishpass when the opposite side switches. Mola's sheer bulk and utility of wish gives it a position in both offensive and defensive teams and therefore should be fitted in Low S.
    Shuckleking87 and Nails like this.
  2. speed ghilliesniper

    speed ghilliesniper

    Sep 8, 2012
    The NU example really doesn't matter much to me since it's a completely different meta with less insane physical nukes, and furthermore it's not even S there. In my calcs I was assuming a layer of rocks, the 12% taken by switching in is equal to 2 turns of leftovers after a protect which is why they're bare calcs. If you try and wish pass of that you're asking to get 2HKO'd by those 2 examples. And if you're scouting in those cases, then what? Most defensive and even balanced teams will often carry a steel type such as Steelix since they compliment each other very well, but what other than Alomomola on an offensive team can take a CB Druddigon Outrage or CB Braviary Brave Bird? Usually the answer is nothing, meaning you have to lose you're wall or sack an offensive mon to get a revenge killing opportunity.

    This is one reason why I don't like Alomomola in S, it's a fantastic wall and beats many threats but it simply can't take some of the biggest nastiest Banded offensive nukes of the tier like Druddigon, Escavalier, Aggron, and Braviary. I hate to compare offensive and defensive threats but the former 2 are S for this reason, they have the power, bulk, and typing to come in and immediately threaten something, even the best physical walls in the game such as Tangrowth, Uxie and, yes, even Alomomola. Realistically the only way to stop these is with massive bulk and a resistance, which is something that offensive teams often can't spare as with an Alomomola and a Steelix together then they need something to stop special threats such as Clefable, but then half your team is defensive mons and you can't really call yourself an offensive team at that point.

    Finally, I can't stress how bad of set up bait it is for any special attacker with a lum, of even some physical attackers with a lum and don't even get me started on substitute users. It's lack of use outside of one roll and inability to completely do that roll 100% of the time while being set up bait for many dangerous threats just makes me very hesitant to put it into S rank. Comparing it to other defensive S-ranked mons, Uxie can run it's usual rocks defensive set that checks many physical threats, plus Dual Screens which it's one of the best at, plus even being able to run a devastating offensive set in sub cm make it S, and Slowking can run either defensive, Specs, Calm Mind, Nasty Plot, or even offensive Trick Room both 3 attack and TR + Nasty Plot which is why it's one of the best mons in the tier. Both of these mons have the utility to be among the best, and the offensive threats have a far shorter list of counters that they should be beating (such as physical mons walled by special walls) than Alomomola does with physical mons beating it.
  3. Celever


    Sep 25, 2012
    It seems to me like you guys want Alomomomola to wall every physical attacker in the tier. No, he is a bulky pivot who happens to be pretty fantastic at taking Physical hits but... really the main reason you want to use her is huge Wish-Passes and not needing to use those wishes yourself because of Regenerator. Uxie can't take every hit in the tier, Uxie is S-Rank because while she has incredibly little offensive presence she has the support movepool to do work. You can't say that Uxie shouldn't be S-Rank because she can't use a Choice Band, and can only do one role effectively...

    S Rank: Reserved for the top threats in the RU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well with little to no extra support. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this tier have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

    Alomomomola also has low risk high reward most of the time. While yes, Alomomomola is weak to special attacks that's what the "little support" gives her access too - a Clefable or Slowking or something. Low-S
  4. electricwolf


    May 19, 2013
    Alomamola is such Substitute-bait it hurts. It's not like there are a shortage of 'mons in RU that can learn it either: There's over 50 that can learn it and a good portion of those are faster than Alomamola and can set up a sub that can't be broken in one turn by Alomamola. A good amount of them also have access to status moves, set-up moves and general things that you don't want happening to you.

    Taunt also renders it useless, especially if the Taunt-user resists Waterfall. Qwilfish and Whimsicott are both good Taunt users and can then start setting up themselves with either statuses, spikes, subseed etc.

    It's also hideously frail on the special side and a fair few 'mons carry some move that is both super effective and special. If a 'mon carries a super effective special attack, chances are that it'll 2HKO and in some cases, OHKO.
  5. atomicllamas

    atomicllamas look who's diggin their own grave, that is what they all say
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a defending SPL Champion
    RU Leader

    Apr 16, 2013
    There are quite a few problems with this post's logic that just really undersell Alomomola's viability in RU. First off, just because a pokemon learns substitute, does not make it a good choice for it to run, Alomomola isn't supposed to be in long enough for them to set up a substitute anyways. Alomomola switches into a physical attack (especially on obvious scarf / band mons) then responds appropriately. It can set up a wish to heal the next thing coming in, use Scald (the fact that you mentioned waterfall negatively affects your credibility :/, the burn chance is like 8000 times better than the slight damage increase) for a chance to burn the opponent, or use toxic on the obvious Electric/Grass switch in. Taunt does not render Alomomola useless at all, as I'm not switching in Alomomola into either of those pokemon (or really any taunt pokemon), and since you are switching into my Alomomola, I can simply switch out Alo, regenerating health, while passing the free wish I got during your switch into something that doesn't really care about your switch in.

    Funny thing is Alomomola isn't even that frail on the special side (well it isn't unless you are running a really stupid spread).

    252 SpA Life Orb Moltres Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 116+ SpD Slowking: 187-222 (47.5 - 56.4%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Life Orb Moltres Hurricane vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Druddigon: 270-320 (79.8 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Moltres Hurricane vs. 136 HP / 120 SpD Alomomola: 374-442 (74 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    252 SpA Rotom Volt Switch vs. 136 HP / 120 SpD Alomomola: 278-330 (55 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Magneton Volt Switch vs. 136 HP / 120 SpD Alomomola: 326-386 (64.5 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    This is the spread I use on Alomomola (with 252+ def obvi) and I find it really useful, as many of the electric types in the tier are choice scarf, and will try to volt switch out, but you can live the hit and cripple the switch in (or wish). The Moltres Calc's show that Alomomola is more specially bulky than a speed creeping Druddigon, and honestly Moltres is a freaking monster.

    Alomomola gains momentum like crazy, can support the team while requiring little extra support from teammates, and can be used to wall certain extremely threatening pokemon. It is certainly worthy of either High A or Low S.
  6. electricwolf


    May 19, 2013
    Suggesting Waterfall over Scald affects my credibility?
    The last usage stats I can find (August) suggest that Waterfall is more common on Alomo than Scald and the only sets that include Scald on the mainsite are for UU, not RU. Surely if Scald was better it would be there?
    And if you're using Scald to try and burn physical sweepers then I'd ask why the hell anyone is keeping their physical 'mon in against Alomo? Because it's defences are rather one-sided, if you don't have a special move then staying in is likely a wasted turn.

    I won't deny that Alomo is good for momentum but it can also be bad for momentum. Once you see Alomo in your team and you know what your team does, it's fairly easy to guess when Alomo is coming in. Just severely damaged a 'mon with your physical sweeper? Guess what? The forecast is cloudy with a high chance of Alomo switching in. Because it does exactly one thing, it's extremely easy to predict what it's going to do and requires next-to-no scouting to figure it out.

    What spread you use on Alomo is almost entirely irrelevant and not helpful to the conversation. I could tell you I use 252+ Specs Magneton with Thunderbolt but unless that's what people are commonly using then it's as useless as a fart in the wind.

    I'm not here to deny that Alomo does what it's supposed to do well. Frankly it's the best wish-passer in the tier.
    The problem is that it's so gosh darn predictable which can really limit how useful it is if you find your momentum-grabbing switch has just been predicted and you now face being killed, crippled or giving your opponent a free turn to set-up on.
    I think High-A is where it belongs in this current metagame.
  7. atomicllamas

    atomicllamas look who's diggin their own grave, that is what they all say
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a defending SPL Champion
    RU Leader

    Apr 16, 2013
    Just cause the ladder uses something more does not make it better. Any good player will be using scald over waterfall, the analysis isn't necessarily up to date and scald is better, this isn't really up for debate. Also if your response is well I can switch my physical attacker out, the double switch becomes pretty easy to predict.

    For someone who says there are "50+" RU Pokemon who can use substitute, to imply usage is the only thing that matters is pretty silly. This is the viability ranking system, and I can tell you that scald alomomola is more viable than waterfall.

    Who cares if alomomola is predictable, it does its job extremely well while countering 2-4 Pokemon on any given team.

    Also specs magneton is actually really good, lol.
    Shuckleking87 likes this.
  8. electricwolf


    May 19, 2013
    Is that really true? Most of the S-ranked 'mons are in the top 10 and the As all seem to be in the top 50. Alomo was #55 in September. If it's so good, why aren't more people using it? There's a very high rate of correlation between viability ranking and usage but is suspiciously not the case for Alomo. The only other A-Rank 'mon that's low down in the 1850 rankings is Tauros at #68.
    Why isn't it up for debate? Do you speak for every player now? I think I must have missed that memo.

    If Alomo is your last 'mon then unless their entire team is 4x weak to water then your only chance is toxic stall. Scald is pitiful.
    Assuming you're uninvested into SpA, it fails to get a 2HKO on every variant you are likely to see of Entei, Emboar, Moltres, Golurk, Steelix, Aggron, and in some cases only has a percentage chance to 4HKO.
    If it isn't super effective, it isn't going to break a sub or do any significant damage. The only 'mon you have a chance of killing with an uninvested Scald is Rhydon.
    Even if you imagine it as purely a status move then it has such a shaky proc rate that even if you use it twice, it's still almost 50/50.

    One proc out of one: 30%
    One out of two: 51%
    One proc out of three: 65.7%

    Have you ever had Stone Edge or Focus Blast miss? Both are more likely to hit than Scald is to burn in three uses.

    You seem to think that Scald burns are more likely than they are but it really is not all that reliable. Say you've just switched into a banded Drudd Outrage, that's why you put Alomo in your team, right?
    On the switch-in, you'll take 47.7 - 56.1% damage, healing 6% off. Effectively, 42-50% damage.
    If you go for the Scald and it doesn't proc then you'll take another 47.7 - 56.1% damage.

    It's as likely you'll get the burn as it will that you'd get 2HKO'd. You'll also get guaranteed 2HKO'd if there's any sort of hazard on your side of the field.

    Of course, you can use Protect to effectively give you enough HP to last another turn but even if you get the 51% chance of burn on that extra turn then you'll still get KO'd and then you've lost Alomo.

    If a Pokemon is predictable, it limits it's usefulness. One of the most potent things about Druddigon is that you just don't know what it's running and until then almost any pokemon isn't a guaranteed counter. Heck, even Alomo doesn't counter all the Drudd sets.

    This isn't a debate about Specs Magneton. I just mentioned it as the most recent statistics I can find suggested that less than 20% of people use Specs Magneton. I was trying to make a point out of the fact that we should be talking about common sets seeing as you seemed to use exactly the same argument to effectively deny the existence of Substitute (which effectively renders toxic stall useless).
  9. Celever


    Sep 25, 2012
    Unfortunately this post will be very short as all of your points can be wrapped up into a couple of simple statements:
    1)Alomomomola is not an offensive threat; damage output does not matter, what matters is the fact that Alomomola takes most physical damage like it is literally nothing and just wishes it off or someone which hasn't been brought up in this particular conversation of switching out -- Regenerator gives it recovery for doing nothing to he opponent and using no attacks, how can his be a bad thing?
    2)Alomomola is NU, as is the other Pokemon you listed as being low, Tauros. Basically this means that the general user of Pokemon showdown will not want to venture into the NU tier as they believe that they are too bad for RU. Nearer end of generations, which was when Alomomola was found to be such a huge threat, there was a hell of a lot of hype for it but not enough to propel it into the RU tier in the final tier shifts which I believe was when the hype really began building up for the caring fish.
    3)There's an unfortunate feature on Pokemon showdown which suggests moves for Pokemon, if you follow the moves that they provide then you often end up with clearly inferior sets compared to using the smogon analysis, this works for EVs as well. Basically, the reason why you see everyone with Waterfall on their Alomomomola instead of Scald is because Pokemon showdown tells them to, this doesn't mean that it is better, not at all...
    4)Jesu Christ stop with the Scald. Basically, scald is the second-most reliable burn in the game by a mile and the only Pokemon in RU who could attempt to use will-o-wisp are Spiritomb, Moltres and Entei and I would only ever use defensive Spiritomb seriously of those three. Scald is the best that we've got... And what you don't seem to understand is this: if there is a 50% chance for something not to work, which you seem to think is quite high, there is also a 50% chance for it to work. Finally, something that I've thought of which is connected to this, Dynamic Punch was very viable on Ampharos gen 2, which had a 50% chance to HIT, never mind have some added effect!
    Arkian and Blizzard like this.
  10. atomicllamas

    atomicllamas look who's diggin their own grave, that is what they all say
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a defending SPL Champion
    RU Leader

    Apr 16, 2013
    Lol, k silly comments aside, this is a really bad way to look at viability rankings, or even how well a pokemon performs in the tier. Sandslash for example is sitting at #47 in the tier in November usage (and this is way lower than usual), while being a low C rank pokemon should we move it up to reflect its higher usage than the rest of the C tier? Dusknoir (low D rank) is #22 in the tier, Dusknoir for B rank, amiright? Snover was sitting in the mid 40's before it was banned, so it clearly wasn't broken, and Gothitelle was in the low 60's and in NU when it was banned from UU, what were they thinking? To be quite honest the usage statistics from the simulator give no indication of viability, as most ladder players have no idea what their using/doing. (Don't even get me started on how low Moltres, Esca, and Durant are in usage, -_-)

    Scald IS better than Waterfall, Waterfall misses the 2hko on all of the pokemon you listed as well, and is just not very good. Scald is far superior because it has a chance to cripple an opponent's pokemon, while Waterfall does marginally more damage. Most of the time Scald damage + burn damage will outdamage Waterfall, but as Celever stated, it isn't about damage its about status (actually Celever's points 1-3 are pretty much spot on oO). And yes, while scald only has a 30% chance to burn, Alomomola has the natural bulk and ability to use scald upwards of 5 times throughout the match.

    This is technically true, however those are the chances of burning AT LEAST once, not just once, so a portion of that 65% of the time you are burning 2 or 3 things, which once again isn't hard to do at all with its bulk and ability.

    I'd also like to point out when talking about usage in relation to viability I strictly meant the moves Alomomola "usually" runs are irrelevant, and we should only be talking about the most viable of its moves. Of course the usage statistics of things you are playing against matters, for example only 17% of Druddigon's are choice band and able to 2HKO Alomomola. Once again however leaving Alomomola in on Druddigon hoping for a burn is not how one should be using Alomomola, the great thing about Alomomola, is that it can switch into the outrage and say, "oh crap" then switch into an Aggron / Steelix / Eviolite Magneton to take on Druddigon with no problem. Switching out also puts Alomomola back at 83% health and allow it to do it again later if you are afraid to switch your steel type into a Choice Band Earthquake (or a life orb sheer force flamethrower in the case of Steelix). The Steel-type pokemon is also easy to keep healthy throughout the match due to Alomomola's giant wishes.

    I think people get caught up in this idea that Alomomola is supposed to be able to wall the whole tier (because it almost does, lol) but Alomomola is simply the best bulky defensive pivot in the tier. With the added bonus of being able to take on many of the top pokemon in the tier, it has extremely favorable match ups with Entei, Druddigon, and Slowking the three most common pokemon in the tier while supporting its teammates. Alomomola is even good on offensive teams keeping stuff like Sceptile and Durant healthy while working as an emergency oh shit button to stuff that nothing on your team wants to take a hit from.

    I was on the fence but screw it, low S from me.

    Celever how could you forget the Rotom forms as good users of will-o-wisp, smh. :p
    Turtleye and Celever like this.
  11. Nozzle


    Apr 14, 2012
    I feel slightly embarrased now that i run waterfall alomomola .-.

    I personally like not accidentally burning something that you rather have poisoned and it handles a ton of the tier without burnimg them anyway.

    Low-s for me though.
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2013
    Celever likes this.
  12. Turtleye


    Jun 7, 2013
    I would vote for Low-s too. Alomo is a great defensive wall/pivot, maybe the best in the tier, and very few Physical mons manage to outright OHKO it. The closest one is Head Smash Archeops but lol who runs that. Also, she just switches out after that and he is in defeatist range.
    Yeah, Alomo is somehwat of a set-up fodder, but that doesn't stop me from using her since the pros outshine the very few cons by far.
    Also she won't be walling the whole tier. No 'mon currently in the tier can. Given the fact that she is a pure water type helps even more since that type is one of the, if not the, best defensive type in the tier.
    Whispassing is great too. She can manage to keep members without recovery to restore HP, which is very useful.

    So yea. Low-s would I see suitable for her.
    Nozzle likes this.
  13. atomicllamas

    atomicllamas look who's diggin their own grave, that is what they all say
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a defending SPL Champion
    RU Leader

    Apr 16, 2013
    Not letting this forum die, because why not, anyways Molk is to lazy to tell you that after discussion on IRC (with molk, nails, hotncold, silentverse, SS234, and myself) the following changes were made to the list:

    Entei down from Mid S --> Top A
    Emboar down from Low S --> Top A
    Moltres up from Top A --> Mid S

    Due to the presence of bulky waters such as Slowking, Alomomola, and Kabutops, Entei and Emboar are just not S material rn due to the fact that Emboar often has to be choice locked to pull anything off, and Entei has limited coverage getting in its way. Moltres was moved up simply because it has always been one of, if not the most versatile and powerful offensive pokemon in the tier (and can get around these bulky waters thanks to Hurricane or HP grass @_@). Its Stealth Rock weakness was frankly exaggerated when it was originally dropped out of S rank, and that Kabutops is not only an excellent spinner, but it also has amazing synergy with Moltres making them ideal teammates regardless. Moltres also has good bulk, reliable recovery, and the ability to force plenty of switches which somewhat mitigates the Rocks weakness if you are unable to keep them off your side of the field.

    If you do feel like one of these are incorrect, feel free to comment and molk will likely take your opinions into consideration.

    Now for some proposals of my own, I believe that Haunter is sorely underrated at mid C, and that Drifblim is too high in low B.

    Haunter is, and has always been, a great offensive utility pokemon in RU, it has incredible typing and abilities that allow it to switch in on many things regardless of its frail offenses. Destiny Bond, Sub disable, and Sub split allow Haunter to do more than just hit hard and fast, although it does do that too. An immunity to Toxic, and some cool coverage options make it a bitch for stall to face, which is also really nice. I would like to propose Haunter up to low B, although this obviously isn't that important, lol.

    Drifblim is the opposite, the only set I have found worth using is Acro Blimp (unburden calm mind isn't that great in RU). The only reason there is to really use Driblim is on Flying spam teams, because it can burn things that stand in the way like Kabutops or destiny bond to take out something in the way, but it has no real use outside of that (enlighten me if I'm wrong!). I could see this dropping to Mid C, just cause it really only has a very small niche.
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2014
    ryan and Celever like this.
  14. EonX

    EonX One and Only
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    May 27, 2011
    I'm alive... again. Anyway, considering Mola wasn't moved one way or the other, I'll take my crack at it:

    Ok, so Mola is one of the best physical tanks / walls in the entire tier. If you're a physical attacker and lack a way of hitting her for super effective STAB damage, you're in deep trouble. Between Toxic, Wish, and Protect, she can stay healthy while chipping away at your HP. Mola is basically a defensive pivot that can fully heal most offensive Pokemon in the tier (and even some defensive Pokemon) thanks to the ridiculous size of her Wishes. Even better is Mola's ability, Regenerator. You basically get directly rewarded for helping a teammate as Mola gains 33% of her max HP back just by switching out and letting something else get healed by her Wish. Now, she does have faults. Being unable to touch most Sub users sucks and special attackers make Mola run (or swim?) for the hills. That being said, a strong offensive (or defensive if you use stall) core can usually shore this up (hint, Druddigon is really damn good with this thing) Throw in a little bit of entry hazard support, and Mola will outlast just about every physical attacker in the tier. She is able to wall all or a very significant portion of the physical side of the attacking spectrum, support her team well with Wish, and fit onto offensive and defensive teams alike. I feel like that's enough for Mola to move to Low-S imo.
    Nozzle and Celever like this.
  15. Leer


    Jan 1, 2014
    I would say something about Necroing threads but at this point every post in an RU thread is necroing (;-;).

    To add to the Alomomola discussion, I would also like to see it move to Low-S rank. There is no denying Alo's physical bulk; very few Pokemon that can check it, and most of them are stopped by anything with Earthquake. Yes, it is destroyed by Substitute, but remember, this is Low-S and not Mid-S. Alo is also an asset because of its ability to wish pass, and even then it heals a reliable third of its HP with Regenerator. It comfortably counters two of the three most common fire types in the tier, Entei and Emboar (even with Wild Charge) and can Toxic them or hit back with Scald or Waterfall. Most setup sweepers fail to even 2HKO Alo, and even then if Toxic is used during the set up it can heal with Wish and Leftovers while stalling for toxic at the same time. If Scald is run, Alo gets the 30% chance to add to the already ridiculous bulk. Alo has come through for me many times, not only stalling most of an unprepared team (most common Showdown teams) but also causing numerous forfeits and "rage quits." Yes, I think a nice spot at Low-S would work quite nicely for Alomomola. And yes, Low-S needed to be bolded twice.

    Now, on to other Pokemon and awful opinions.

    In my opinion, Scyther should move up from High-C to Low-B. Now, Scyther probably isn't the most liked Pokemon among high level players, due to its many weaknesses, but let me explain. Scyther is a very versatile mon, with multiple sets. It can run both Choice Scarf and Choice band, as well as Swords Dance or Agility. The Choice Band allows it to hit hard, Choice Scarf gives it a speed advantage over eveything in the tier save Unburden Sceptile (which it can comfortably take hits from sans Acrobatics or HP Fire), the Lum berry allows it to heal while setting up (no explanation needed) and the Eviolite can even give it enough bulk to take a hit. Like Scizor, Scyther has Technician, allowing it to use boosted Aerial Ace, Quick Attack, and Bug Bite, among others. Scyther can also U-Turn, and has a solid nice on U-Turning teams with Lanturn and others. It is glaringly weak to SR, but just about everyone knows about its synergy with the tier's best Rapid Spinner, Kabutops. A handful of Mons can check it, but remember: B Rank, and especially Low-B, means that while it does need a little bit support while being slightly above average, which I believe is a description Scyther fits quite well.

    Now that I've gotten the raises out of the way, I would like to argue for a Pokemon to be lowered: Magmortar. Not very many, if any at all, Magmortars have ever done too much to me. Now, it could just be the set, or the user, or some other factor, but I've never seen a Magmortar do what another fire type, even Typhlosion, could do better. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the primary reason that Magmortar is used is for the Fire and Electric coverage, no? I'm not denying this is good coverage, but Manectric pulls this off just as well as Magmortar does, only instead of hitting harder in Fire it has Electric type STAB, and Manectric can Switcheroo the Choice Specs/Scarf away if it runs that set.. Now, I'm not saying it should move down too much, as it's not that bad (and I'm afraid there's actually some secret set that's actually really good ;-;7) and it does have good coverage. All I'm saying is that it should move down to Low-B rank, a very low-populated rank, putting it on the same level as Feraligatr, Scolipede, Seismitoed, Mismagius, others and hopefully Scyther, Pokemon I believe it is very much on par with. Now, to quote Forrest Gump, "That's all I got to say 'bout that."

    Well, this is been my first post outside of signing up for (and dropping out of, I choked) SPL Farm League, so I hope it looks right and gets considered.

    And one more thing, I'm not sure if this is an error or on purpose, but Magneton is in both Mid and Top A-rank (and if it is an error, you better put it in Top-A).
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2014
    Cristal likes this.
  16. Nails

    Nails Nuke the Weebs
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a defending World Cup of Pokemon champion

    May 14, 2010
    Mola is probs mid s because it makes your team not die while countering ~everything.

    Scyther is prolly mid b tbh because it's about as good as manectric, lanturn, fraxure, and eggy. Really solid speed tier and uturn is broken, needs support to do work or you die and it cant counter anything except like, uxie and sceptile. Tbh it's almost exactly the physical version of manectric (same base speed, spams volt turn, some decent utility with switcheroo/pursuit, glass cannon, relies on weak coverage to hit resists, bad defensive typing for what it wants to accomplish).

    Magmortar is solid if you need what it has to offer. It has taunt, wisp, focus blast, vital spirit, thunderbolt... you have a ton of options that make it not just a worse Moltres. If you want a nukemon, Moltres will be better 99% of the time. If you want utility and wallbreaking, Magmortar might do the job better.

    Other shifts:

    Slowking to low s because other water types have more utility and druddi poops on it.

    Uxie to mid a because sponging 3 special attacks a game isn't as useful as it once was but it's still pretty good.

    Qwilfish to mid s because spikes are cool and you counter lots of things and stuff.

    Magneton to low s because Double01 says it's not a threat.

    Steelix to high a because it's really big and beating Druddi is crucial.
  17. XEspmasterX


    Dec 14, 2013
    Hello, can someone explain why Magneton is in both A-h and A-m? Is this a mistake or is it intentional for some reason?
  18. speed ghilliesniper

    speed ghilliesniper

    Sep 8, 2012
    I'v talked on momo already so yea, so I'll skip that.

    Scyther: Probably fine where it's at tbh. Scyther just really underwhelms me when I'v used it, mainly due to it's choice sets being to easily forced out and the ubiquity of stealth rock in the tier. My main beef with it is it's stealth rock weakness hinders the choice sets ability to spam u-turn for momentum which is a problem as it's coverage is pretty lacking and It's STABs are really not that great to be choiced into. Offensive swords dance you have to ask yourself why you're not using Durant as it has a much better typing (there'a a reason Scizor is top tier OU and Scyther is RU despite having the exact same bst) resulting in less weaknesses, no sr weakness, snd more resistances. Add in similar power (+1 Life Orb hustle Durant is about equal to +2 Life Orb technician Scyther), better bulk on the physical side with no Eviolite, and better coverage with it's moves meaning it's not nearly as easily threatened out (plus not being 100% boned if it does have to switch with rocks on the field). The bulky SD set is pretty cool against more defensive teams although it has a big power drop with Eviolite attached and is still super vulnerable to status and runs into gigantic coverage issues between Roost and SD meaning it has to cut down it's already limited coverage. So yea, keep it High-C imo.

    Magmortar: Not particularly swayed either way on this one, I always saw it as an inferior Moltres with less power and less Stealth Rock Weakness (although it's still weak to it and weak to spikes). But I will say that Fire STAB with a way to get rid of waters (Thunderbolt) is a nightmare combination for Stall meaning that once it gets in it can wreck some damage. Plus thanks to it's good power and Excellent coverage it can do major damage to bulky and balanced teams and excelling with paralysis support from the likes of Qwilfish and Uxie. Basically it's a fantastic wall breaker with some speed issues and not packing quite as much fire power as some others so somewhere in B is fine for it. Mid or Low doesn't really make a huge change, I'd be inclined to leave it in Mid-B but honestly it could go either way if somebody else would like to chip in and breath some life into this.

    And yea if somebody could put Magneton somewhere definite that would be good, I'd say High A for being the most versatile Steel type in the tier.
  19. Hot N Cold

    Hot N Cold
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Jun 11, 2011
    Top S:

    Mid S:

    Low S:

    This is for me the S-rank in my opinion, Uxie and Alomomola dont deserved him. I can explain later etc
  20. JMcFizz


    Dec 6, 2013
    Having played NU quite a bit, I can attest to Alo's incredible ability to take physical attacks. However it isn't quite able to take the huge banded attacks from some big threats in the tier. To take on the premier S rank physical nukes, Druddigon and Escav, it needs to be paired with something else to take on the banded stabs, ie. Steelix.

    252+ Atk Choice Band Druddigon Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 255-300 (47.7 - 56.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Choice Band Escavalier Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 276-325 (51.6 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 297-351 (55.6 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    However as a bulky pivot on things that don't hit too hard it does a great job. But it isn't able to wall all physical attackers. When pressured by the right banded poke, alo is unable to wishpass.

    Also, it get completely shit on by pokes that set up using a substitute. I run a sub bulkup gallade, and it sets up ALLLLLLL over Alo, as drain punching something with that HUGE HP stat is a beautiful thing.
    Alo has problems with hone claws durant as well... If it switches in on the hc...
    +1 252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 281-331 (52.6 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    with a LUM berry you could even conceivably sub durant IN on alo, if you don't get the 9% chance of a double scald burn.
    0- SpA Alomomola Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Durant: 67-81 (25.9 - 31.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

    I get that Alo does what it's meant to do when used correctly. However, its failure to take on the best physical nukes in the teir 1 on 1, and being HUGE setup bait for Lum berry or substitute pokes imo disqualifies it from S-rank. So Alomomola for High A
  21. Hot N Cold

    Hot N Cold
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Jun 11, 2011
    Yeah I think that Alomomola deserved be non-S rank because:

    Predictable utility and movepool as well, with this means that Alomomola at best have 5~6 moves to use only lol Scald or Waterfall; first burns but can be counterproductive along with Toxic also Waterfall hits slighty stronger, Wish and Protect are mandatory, finally the Toxic or Magic Coat, if you dedices run Magic Coat then cant counter another stuff (ex: SD Samurott).
    This is all about their movepool at best, so cant be threatened by itself.

    Actually many things really can donk Alomomola; not only beat him, also they can take a big advantage playing around Alomomola teams.

    - Physical grass types such Sceptile, Torterra or Sawsbuck.
    - Pretty hard hitters like Aggron or Druddigon with the Choice Band, Alomomola relies on the Protect at best and they needs another secondary check for the hard hitter otherwise will be 2HKO.
    - Substitute boosters which are common/strong in RU beats Alomomola also a big potential to sweep their opponent team, the list is very long like: Gallade, Fraxure, Braviary, Bouffalant, Klinkang, Crawdaunt, Scolipede etc
    - Status on physical stuff like Toxic Golurk, Entei or Druddigon cripple Alomomola for the entire battle (heal/aroma only fits at stall tbh).
    - Lum Berry mons like SD Tops or HC Durant break him.
    - Another stuff like Zangoose SD or Gothorita (this last for trap).

    This list is only at the physical side, where Alomomola is really fat; clearly if you're gonna use a team which is 2/3 walled by a single Alomomola you're gonna get owned like for example a random team: aerodactyl lo / scarf emboar / sr druddigon etc but is a thing about teambuilder not about how strong is Alomomola which I agree that is probably the best wall in the entire tier and extremely fat, but just not enough good to S-rank because predictable, lack of power totally and enough things takes advantage or handle him, so Alomomola deserved Top-A Rank in my opinion, also clearly at my eyes.
  22. Durant


    Oct 29, 2013
    Magneton is top A and mid A so you might want to fix that.
  23. Leer


    Jan 1, 2014
    This is probably going to be the last post or one of the last because we have just one month of Gen V RU (Molk are ypu even updating this) left but whatever.

    After countless tests and the quality posts above, I've been convinced otherwise of Alomomola being S rank. It could wall most Pokemon but most Special threats and a few Physical nukes could KO it, as well as other stallmons. It won the pp war most of the time and could wishpass, but thats what makes it Top-A I guess.

    I'll actually agree with Nails about Scyther being Mid-B. I was thinking about saying that initially, but I wasn't sure if I was asking for too much.

    Lilligant cpuld probably be Low-A rank honestly. I used it a TON (first team), and while it preformed at A level with a late-game sweep saving me a lot, it wasn't really on par with Tangrowth. It only had decent bulk (70/75/75) and it has to use the unreliable Sleep Talk to set up, which can go bad in a miss or a quick wake-up. And while Own Tempo+Petal Dance is a good combo, it still locks you in for a few turns, which could be bad if they carry a Bouffalent or Sawsbuck or something.

    And same with Absol. It's A-Rank, but I feel lile it's more Low-A material. I don't feel like it's on par with zero-weakness Spiritomb as a Dark type, and it does have more flaws than other Mid-A Pokemon of the same niche. It can't bulk more than a couple hits from anything other than a non-offensive threat, and it needs Sucker Punch due to its 75 base speed. It does have a 120 base power (after STAB) move paired with a 130 attack stat and a high crit chance, so no lower than Low-A, but other than that it doesn't have too much going for it. Now, in Gen VI it does have a 100% crit rate with Super Luck+Scope Lens+Night Slash, but the mega evolution will end up sending it to UU.

    Sorry for any typos, I'm posting from my phone right now.
  24. Hot N Cold

    Hot N Cold
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Jun 11, 2011
    With SPL almost done, and same with this tier, i wanna post how I feel that they should be ranked, the mons between S and A Ranks :toast:


    -druddigon - best mon in the tier: great bulk, utility and power, good ability and nice typing for RU tier, cons: weak to hazards + being slow + explotable weakness, does bad against spike statackin offense, kills 1 mon at best (this cons makes druddi not broken!!)
    -sceptile - 3054685268 options for playing, totally unpredictable + very fast this thing which makes advantage almost always in 1 vs 1, can sweep entire teams or just lure and kill key mons, weak af.






    Last edited: Mar 23, 2014
    Magcargo, Blizzard, passion and 3 others like this.
  25. SilentVerse

    SilentVerse Into the New World
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion

    Dec 12, 2009
    Since I'm out of SPL now and there is literally only going to be one more relevant RU match happening ever, I'll post my rankings as well :).

    S-Tier - metagame defining pkmns; easy to fit onto teams and they should be prepared for b/c they will wreck you otherwise


    Druddigon - really well-positioned mon in the meta, strong af with cb outrage and has a ton of utility with moves like pursuit and typing that makes it a good check to things like sceptile and lilligant. best set is cb with outrage coverage and 2 support moves (sleep talk pursuit sucker dclaw toxic...) since it owns against both balance and aggro teams (aggro it can 1 for 1, balance gets crushed once their steel gets weakened). mixed is better vs slower teams and can dunk mola lix cores easier, but is pretty bad against faster ones since it has a harder time 1 for 1ing due to less bulk. defensive is mediocre but it has a solid niche so its pretty ok.


    Alomomola - best bulky water in the tier. invalidates probably 60% of ru's physical attackers, this is kinda stupid and op but it stabilizes the meta a lot to a point where teambuilding becomes very interesting so it's a cool mon. the cornerstone of a lot of slower teams b/c wishing and switching out while taking like 0 dmg b/c of regen is op as fk. changes the dynamic of teambuilding a lot b/c you can't overcome it via straight attacking like say milotic, so set up sweepers become a lot more valuable since its really easy to set up on, as well as spikes since all the spikers can set up on mola really easily and spikes neutralize regen which allows you to overcome it via straight attacking. also has a very hard counter in gothorita so gothorita builds are strong against this too.
    Durant - really good typing + really fast + really fkin strong = good pkmn. also surprisingly versatile even tho it has an ass movepool. solid af check to a lot of things with scarf while still being a decent sweeper, really hard to switch into with band, bones most of its initial switchins with subpass, can sweep certain teams with hc. bug stab is strong in ru and this is probably the best user of it, so. this and druddigon are big reasons why steels are like necessary on every ru team.


    Magneton - druddigon and durant being so strong means steels are strong. this dude bones steels. he is strong.

    A-Tier - reasonably strong pkmns, easy to fit b/c they cover a bunch of roles in one teamslot or fill important slots that are difficult to fill otherwise




    Golurk - has a really strong niche of being a rocker and a spinblocker in one teamslot. solid bulk + strong attack + strong coverage make it a very solid mon. this dude is also funny b/c he can run literally like 6 different types of berries; ghost resist for rotom, rindo for rotom-c, yache for cryogonal, colbur for pursuit users, passho for slowking, lum for random status dudes.
    Smeargle - really strong hazard setter. fast and has spore + both hazards, so it can get hazards down while dunking a dude b/c sleep in bw is op all in one teamslot.


    Torterra - really good anti-ground mon. has positive matchups against most of the other rockers in the tier and is a good check to a bunch of other things. also an offensive ground that can feasibly get through mola (mostly) on its own. risky in some ways b/c it gets boned particularly hard by some of the best mons in the tier (sigilyph moltres durant jynx cryogonal), but solid as a ground type sweeper or a rock setter that beats other rock setters.

    B-Tier - good pkmns, but slightly niche and fill specific roles on teams.







    C-Tier - limited pkmn, mons that can't be splashed into a bunch of different teams but can work with a team built around them, or mons that are mostly outclassed by stronger ones but have very specific niche applications

    Last edited: Aug 15, 2015
    Ciele likes this.

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