1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Gen 5 The RU Viability Ranking Thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Molk, Oct 5, 2012.

  1. Molk

    Molk rip houndoom
    is a Tutoris a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    RU Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    3,640
    Im just going to say that hitmonchan actually doesnt have any niche over kabutops, cryogonal, or even sandslash, i was actually thinking of putting hitmonchan in E rank thanks to how bad it is, because ive never seen anyone use hitmonchan to any success since mid BW1.

    Also, i also want to say that sandslash can actually beat dusknoir with the right set, max attack SD lum sandslash can reliably beat dusknoir regardless of EV spread as long as you swords dance as it comes in, sandslash can comfortably take any attack dusknoir has to throw at it, while a +2 EQ will always 2hko dusknoir at the very least, with a lum berry protecting the mighty sandslash from a burn. It also beats spiritomb too, lol. I would still never use sandslash over kabutops simply because of how great kabutops is, though. Aqua jet pretty much seals the deal for me!

    +2 Lum berry Sandslash Earthquake vs 252/252+ Dusknoir: 656 Atk vs 405 Def & 294 HP (100 Base Power): 175 - 207 (59.52% - 70.41%)

    (also, if anyone brings up SR+spin as a niche, that is quite possibly the worst sandslash set you can run, imo.
  2. Koinzell

    Koinzell

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2010
    Messages:
    107
    To be honest, I never understood why Hitmonchan was like #1 in usage some time ago and I felt like he was overrated. But seriously, E Rank ?

    You can say that Kabutops is a better spinner than Hitmonchan and that Hitmonchan is awful in Cresselia's meta, and really, you'll be right on both accounts. But in my opinion, you can't say that Hitmonchan doesn't have a niche. Due to their differences in typing, bulk and offenses, Kabutops and Hitmonchan force out different foes , can switch into different things, have different checks and so on. Just because Kabutops is better overall, doesn't mean Hitmonchan can suit your needs in specific situations. For example you might want a spinner that can switch into Steelix or Aggron, or you might be using a slow Scarfer like Emboar and appreciate Hitmonchan's ability to revenge LO Omastar.

    RU really has few spinners available and having Rapid Spin with decent to mediocre utility should be enough to avoid E-Ranking.
  3. TROP

    TROP *tips fedora*
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2011
    Messages:
    756
    That is because a long time agon in a galaxy far away Sharpedo was in the tier. And it never was even close to #1 in usage, lol.

    At that point you are better just using Sandslash or hell even fucking Wartortle that do the same thing but still are pieces of shit not worth using.Oh yeah, and Kabutops can revenge all of the pokemon you mentioned except for a healthy Omastar and scares them out because of its raw power. If anything you just convinced me that Hitmonchan is even worse than what I already knew. And btw, spin hitmonchan can't revenge Omastar, and that is better left to a mon like Rotom-C instead that has way more utility and gives you momentum if it is really needed. And I forgot, Omastar Ohkoes Hitmonchan. Like I always say, 2 useful mons for what a shitty mon can do in one is better than running that shitty mon.

    Except for the part where Sandslash and Hitmonchan have close to 0 utility and are massive set up fodder for anything dangerous in the tier like Cresselia and Gallade.
  4. New Breed

    New Breed BIG MONEY
    is an official Team Rateris a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2012
    Messages:
    410
    Uxie still deserves a place in the S tier imo, it has a few things over Cresselia. Uxie still serves the role of the bulky support Pokemon that sets up Stealth Rocks for offensive teams which Cresselia can't really do, also Cresselia rarely invests in speed, usually opting for the ability to take alot more hits while Uxie's best current set is easily the Max Speed with SR/Psychic/Twave/U-turn. Oh yeah I forgot to mention how a fast Twave is pretty much a godsend for every offensive team lol. SubDance Crawdaunt and SD + Taunt Drapion both have a good chance of being crippled by Uxie, Uxie easily outspeeds Crawdaunt before it Subs/DD's and can hit it with a Twave or if you expect Crawdaunt will attack just U-turn out. SD + Taunt Drapion is forced into a speed tie in which Uxie rarely loses(ask Molk to confirm this lmao) and will risk eating a Twave. U-turn is also another amazing move for a support Pokemon, another thing in which Cresslia cannot do.

    I personally prefer to use CM Uxie > CM Cresselia because Uxie is usually much more threatening to about 90% of teams and gets a load of free turns to set up since everyone expects the support set.
  5. Ghostbone

    Ghostbone

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2012
    Messages:
    81
    lmao at basculin above hitmonchan
    Hitmonchan being a defensive fighting type with access to foresight for spinning and beating steelix,ferroseed and accelgor 1v1 is enough of a niche for it to be C tier imo, and certainly enough for it to not be E lol.
    It's more specialised than the other spinners but don't act like it's useless >.>
    So yea, hitmonchan for C tier.
  6. IstheCakeReallyaLie

    IstheCakeReallyaLie

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2012
    Messages:
    157
    Magneton for C Tier.
    Although it doesn't have many uses outside of its niche, it has a very good niche (trapping and killing the most defensive type in the game). Being able to take out threats like Ferroseed, having access to Eviolite, and having an excellent Steel typing are all reasons to use it in the RU metagame.
  7. col49

    col49 what.
    is a Contributor to Smogon
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2011
    Messages:
    1,059
    Since the only reason I ladder is to use some C- or B-Rank 'mon to see how effective they are, I'd like to second Phazon's nomination for Garbodor UP from Untested to C Rank.

    Garbodor is an interesting 'mon, for lack of better adjectives. As far as use goes, it makes a respectably usable user of (Toxic) Spikes, being able to set them up by merit of his moderate 80 / 82 / 82 defenses. What's more, his natural synergies with Wish passers such as Clefable (and to a degree sub-par recovery in Pain Split) allows him to retain decent longevity throughout a match. The biggest competition Garbodor has natural comes from it's Poison-type brethren, Roselia and Qwilfish. Roselia sports better special bulk courtesy of Eviolite, somewhat less teammate-reliant recovery in Rest+Natural Cure (which in a similar vein makes it better at absorbing status), and Grass sub-typing, which aides it in switching into the likes of Rotom-C, Lanturn, and so on. On the other hand, Qwilfish retains better physical bulk (when taking Intimidate into account), Water subtyping, and access to utility moves such as Thunder Wave and Taunt. Despite this, Garbodor retains some admirable qualities over both. First and fore-mostly, Garbodor retains reasonable general bulk, allowing it to take both special and physical attacks reasonably well, whereas both Qwilfish and Roselia remain very much specialized int their defensive capabilities. Moreover, mono-Poison typing makes Garbodor a much better switch-in to Pokemon like Accelgor and Sceptile, with the former hitting Roselia neutrally with it's STAB and beating Qwilfish due to limited special bulk, and the latter for being able t threaten Roselia with Acrobatics and beat Qwilish with simple special attacking prowess. That being said, Garbodor faces stiff competition, but definitely retains a usable niche, and with the proper support it is fully functional in the RU metagame, befitting C Rank :)
  8. Molk

    Molk rip houndoom
    is a Tutoris a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    RU Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    3,640
    not going to make any changes yet but i wanted to let you all know that i added Pinsir to Untested Rank. Pinsir has never been seen as too great over the 5 generations of pokemon, mainly because it has almost nothing over heracross ;_;. Nonthenless, pinsir might be able to act like a watered down version of what is easily the biggest threat in UU because it gets similar coverage, the same attack stat, and the same ability, moxie. Pinsir could function as a late game cleaner with moxie, or hell it could even utilize mold breaker with SD or stealth rock to good effect.

    Anyways, discuss!
  9. col49

    col49 what.
    is a Contributor to Smogon
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2011
    Messages:
    1,059
    Currently 4-0 with Team Lazy CS Pinsir, and thus far while not being amazing, it's definitely viable, and has snowballed and cleaned up twice. More thoughts to come !_!

    edit: 8-0, looking like a firm B-C imo.
  10. ToRLuneth

    ToRLuneth

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2012
    Messages:
    1
    Ludicolo for Untested?
    Pretty good rain sweeper imo
  11. Silvershadow234

    Silvershadow234 :]]]]]
    is a Pre-Contributor
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2012
    Messages:
    737
    Pinsir is a great wall breaker in the metagame, and I've been using it to great success on my semi-stall team. With hazard support, Pinsir can 2HKO the large majority of walls in the tier, and with a Lum Berry attached can set-up on the likes of Cresselia with ease. Although X-Scissor doesn't fully KO, you can always just hit it again and KO it after it paralyzed you. All of his abilities help him out a lot, for example, Hyper Cutter mocks Qwilfish, Moxie turns you into an unstoppable killing machine, and Mold Breaker breaks through Sturdy and means that Cress becomes vulnerable to spikes/toxic spikes, which can be very useful.

    On offensive teams, I have also used Scarf Pinsir. It works much like Scarf Heracross, only slightly worse because RU has a lot more priority, and it's Stealth Rock weak. However, it still works as a great revenge killer, to threats such as Kabutops, Moltres and Sceptile thanks to his awesome coverage, and thanks to Moxie, Pinsir can also sweep late-game. It requires quite a lot of support though, such as Rapid Spin support, and faster pokes such as Scarf Manectric removed and walls such as Poliwrath.

    Overall, I'm thinking C rank, as Pinsir requires quite a lot of support to perform to its best, but can perform very well in either a wall-breaking role or a sweeping/revenge killing role.
  12. Molk

    Molk rip houndoom
    is a Tutoris a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    RU Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    3,640
    Just posting to say that i have officially added Ludicolo to Untested Rank. I completely forgot about him and he sure as hell deserves a rank, good catch TorLuneth!

    Im also going to note that im going to change up the ranks again soon, and i would really like some more discussion on the current proposed changes. Which are:

  13. spuds4ever

    spuds4ever

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2011
    Messages:
    692
    This is all good by me except ferroseed up to B rank.

    I think ferroseed's flaws are too big in my view to push it up to B. Sure, it has a niche, but being out of the question for use in heavily offensive teams due to its nasty habit of absolutely destroying momentum thanks to its bad offenses and common weaknesses. Not only this, but it has a severe case of 4MSS, spikes/stealth rock and leech seed are essential pretty much. Then you have to two of seed bomb/gyro ball/thunder wave/protect. Without seed bomb, you won't be able to stop things like crawdaunt and won't make for a good switch-in to water types who will just spam scald and minimalise recovery. Without gyro ball, you will be doing jack to a lot of offensive pokemon who you would otherwise threaten like sceptile, aerodactyl and such. Without protect, your recovery will be pretty minimal due to lack of lefties and will be also exposed to any prediction wars against choiced things with fire moves. Without thunder wave, you become very easy to set up on.

    Pretty limited niche IMO, especially when there lots of other really good spikers in the tier. C is fine in my view.
  14. Yonko7

    Yonko7 Guns make you stupid. Duct tape makes you smart.
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2012
    Messages:
    651
    Usually Ferroseed shouldn't have Stealth Rock, as it has a very wide distribution relative to Spikes, but it Ferroseed does suffer from 4MSS. I do believe that it has an awesome niche in that it can basically tank any attack and setup hazards with basic impunity.

    I support Ferroseed going up from C to B. The definition of B is fits Ferroseed perfectly, in that it has little offensive presence and a 4x Fire weakness that can be exploited well in this metagame, but that's why you have partners! The cards that Ferroseed brings to the table aren't matched by anything, the possible combination of Stealth Rock, Spikes, Leech Seed, Thunder Wave, etc. leads to the "ultimate" support Pokemon (that suffers from 4MSS).

    EDIT:

    I support Aerodactly moving to A.

    The biggest reason is that it a great offensive Pokemon to have on a team, which can simultaneously check fast, and dangerous sweepers, such as Sceptile, Nidoqueen, Entei, and Moltres, without any Choice item. Hell Aero', can surprise Tangrowth and Ferroseed with a Fire Blast if needs be :3

    The combination of Stealth Rock, a fast Roost and Taunt, and a decent base 105 Attack means that its great to have on offensive teams. Of the Pokemon in S, Aerodactyl can switch into Entei, Moltres; revenge Sceptile, and Nidoqueen; and taunt Uxie and Cresselia. With proper prediction, Aerodactyl can even switch into any of these.

    The best set is the LO set, which uses EQ / Stone Edge / Roost / Taunt [Stealth Rock]. This allows Aerodactyl to never die, and constantly harass the opponent.
  15. Molk

    Molk rip houndoom
    is a Tutoris a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    RU Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    3,640
    Okay im going to make some changes, all other changes that havent been implemented are still up for discussion!

    I have moved Escavalier up to S rank: Due to my personal experiences using it and playing against it. Its a really useful pokemon to have on balance and offense alike, it checks one of the biggest threats in the tier, cresselia, among other things. Its also an excellent wallbreaker that can easily 2hko resists as bulky as entei and nidoqueen with its mighty megahorn, im pretty sure nobody will argue that esca is deserving of S rank =).

    I have moved Stoutland up to D rank: Stoutland is an okay pokemon, and it has pretty good stats all around, its mainly outclassed by the other normals in the tier but its very physically bulky with intimidate factored in (rivaling cress!). Stoutland also has some support moves such as roar, toxic, and twave. Stoutland also hits decently hard for a defensive pokemon, which makes it deserving of D rank imo.

    I have moved Pinsir up to C Rank: Pinsir is actually pretty nice in this metagame from what ive seen and heard, he basically functions exactly how his appearance and stats suggest, like a watered down heracross. Pinsir has two good sets that it can run, Swords Dance and Scarf Moxie, and both of them are very effective with the correct support. Swords Dance can break through walls and tell Cresselia whos boss, while quick attack+moxie helps him out in the speed department. Scarf is a good revenge killer with decent power and good coverage, and like his UU counterpart, he can clean up an opposing team easily with the moxie snowball effect. Sadly, pinsir requires quite a bit of support to function well, but its niche qualifies it as a solid C rank pokemon for now!

    Dusknoir is Staying D rank: From what i got from both forum and irc discussion, we all agree that its bad, but its not quite as bad as Munchlax and Metang, so Dusk is staying D rank for now.

    With that done, here are the new proposed changes:

    Aerodactyl UP from B rank to A rank

    Zangoose DOWN from A rank to B rank

    Ferroseed UP from C rank to B rank

    Kangaskhan UP from Untested rank to B rank

    Added Ludicolo To untested rank

    Garbodor UP from Untested rank C rank

    Magneton UP from D rank to C rank

    Hitmonchan UP from D rank to C rank

    Uxie DOWN from S rank to A rank
  16. Slory

    Slory

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2011
    Messages:
    85
    I dont think that Aerodactyl should be A rank. Although its physical attacker set can revenge kill fast sweepers like Entei, Zangoose, Moltres or Drapion, Aerodactyl cannot hit strong, outside using Choice Band that is worst, and make it really easily to check. Its SR weakness dont help and make it less longevity even when run Roost. Also, its pretty weak to common priorities like Aqua Jet or Sucker Punch. The lead set by any mode its worth to be A rank.

    About Ferroseed however its has a unique niche thanks its typing to check several things like Kabutops or Rotom-M and access to an unvaluable support move in the form of Spikes, it has important flaws that prevent it to be B; Ferroseed hasnt offensive presence and most of the time makes it a perfect set-up bait together with it has 4MSS that means if it dont want to be a free switch its force to use Thunder Wave and offensive move like Gyro Ball, also Ferroseed needs Leech Seed since its his unique way to recover, and only leave 1 slot for hazards and most of the time the better would be Spikes without any dude. This flaws make me feel that C Rank its good for Ferroseed.

    Also I propose moving Primeape down to C Rank or D Rank. Although because its unique Speed for a Fighting-type, Vital Spirit and access to U-turn, make Primeape good option to Scarf Pokemon and not outclassed in this job by others Fighting-types, the added of Cresselia make it worst, and even before never was that good to B Rank imo. Unlike other Scarfer like Manectric or Emboar Primeape its very weak, so weak that isnt capable to 2HKO Steelix with Close Combat; anything that resist Fighting moves can heavily check Primeape like Nidoqueen, Slowking or Golurk. Furthemore its has a very limited movepool and hasnt good options to hits Ghost-types and Psychic-types. Also incredible weak and receive a lot of damage even of neutral coverage moves.
  17. DittoCrow

    DittoCrow
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2010
    Messages:
    1,477
    Ludicolo is a great asset to rain teams. Even when not on rain teams, it can be a devastating sweeper on its own. With Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, and Giga Drain, it gets some amazing coverage. If it does get many KOes, it is sure to dent the opposing team. For example, it 2HKOes 252 HP / 252 Def+ Cresselia in the rain with Hydro Pump (Surf also has a chance to 2HKO). If you don't have a strong special wall or something that can take a hit in the rain, then you're usually out of luck when facing Ludicolo. I'll nom it for B Rank.

    Garbodor should be C Rank imo. It would probably be high C Rank since it beats Cryogonal and provides some good resistances to Fighting and Grass. It also has Pain Split to heal and Clear Smog to remove the opponent's boosts. Garbodor is a solid mon overall and it has some pros over other Spikes users.

    Magneton deserves to be C Rank I guess. It can trap and revenge kill Steel-types, which is somewhat helpful. Choice Specs hits sorta hard, and it can usually get in on something like Amoonguss and hit a switch-in hard. There's nothing else to Magneton really.

    Hitmonchan really deserves D Rank. It is a bad Rapid Spin user, so its main role as a unique Fighting-type is thrown out the door. It's outclassed by other Fighting-types, mainly Gallade and Hitmonlee, and gets shut down by Psychic-types. For a Pokemon that already has four moveslot syndrome, Foresight is awful and Hitmonchan will simply get crippled if it tries to spin on a Ghost-type. It also has no recovery, and can't keep up with any type of team throughout the match, meaning that it gets worn down easily and cannot perform its jobs. There really is no reason to use Hitmonchan.
  18. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,580
    I agree with DittoCrow, Ludicolo is B material. Flaws include its meddling Speed without Rain and being bodied by special threats like Cryogonal, Ferroseed, and Cresselia. Pair it with a Rain Summoner, though, and the devastation it can cause is a true sight to behold. None of the Pokemon mentioned above (other than Ferroseed) can tank 2 Rain-augmented Hydro Pumps iirc. Awesome typing for bulk and offense - a well-rounded Pokemon.

    I also want to motion Charizard's placement from Untested -> C Tier. It needs significant support in Sun and Rapid Spin support, and it has stiff competition against other Special Fire Sweepers like Moltres and Typhlosion. It certainly has its place in RU, though, as one of the most destructive Sun Sweepers that exists, thanks to Solar Power.
  19. Ghostbone

    Ghostbone

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2012
    Messages:
    81
    Since I'm probably the only one who thinks hitmonchan is worth using I guess it's up to me to defend it.

    Yes hitmonchan has 4MSS, it needs foresight, rapid spin and drain punch as a defensive spinner. And it'd love to run all of the elemental punches, but the one it does run allows it to check/counter certain pokemon.
    With ice punch nidoqueen isn't safe, with thunderpunch slowking will get 2HKO'd (even with minimal attack investment) as well as hurting moltres, and fire punch allows hitmonchan to be a good check to escavalier as well.

    It lacks traditional recovery but an iron fist boosted drain punch is really useful against the main threats setting up hazards, and allows hitmonchan to outlast them by healing itself.
    Where a spinner such as kabutops would fail to harm a poke such as ferroseed, hitmonchan can heal back any pitiful damage ferroseed deals to it while spinning away any hazards (and leech seed) that it tries to set up.

    Hitmonchan is pretty unique in spinners in that it actually beats a lot of the hazard setters 1v1, examples include accelgor, steelix, ferroseed, crustle, smeargle (after something else is asleep), aggron, omastar, regirock, and aerodactyl.
    Where other spinners (especially crygonal) would lose to many of these, hitmonchan comes out on top.

    Furthermore, the lack of recovery can be mitigated with a wish passer such as alomomola or clefable, and on teams where hitmonchans spinning reliability are desired, these two pokemon are likely to be found.
    The definition of a C-rank pokemon is "C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the RU metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective in RU. C rank Pokemon tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon."
    Hitmonchan does generally require wish support to shine, and to some degree heal bell support (though it accomplishes its goal without it), but it definitely has a notable niche as explained above (ability to beat most hazard layers, and also having foresight for reliability, plus being a defensive spinner in general that doesn't lose to spiritomb like cryogonal does).
    Yes it faces competition with the other spinners in the tier, which is why it doesn't deserve to be in B or A rank, but I believe it fits quite well in C tier.
  20. The Goddamn Batman

    The Goddamn Batman

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2011
    Messages:
    98
    I agree with Ghostbone. I think it's important for us to keep in mind the definition of these tiers, and Hitmonchan's niche of Foresight + Rapid Spin is certainly enough to warrant its place in C-Tier. Is it less effective in the Cresselia metagame? Of course, but it dropping to D-Tier is unprecedented for its ability to theoretically pull off a Rapid Spin against any opponent.

    Moving on to one of Molk's more recent suggestions, I am in favor of moving Kangaskhan into B-Tier. Although Kangaskhan isn't going to be forcing too many opposing Pokemon out of battle, her ability to create 101 HP Substitutes and hit everything in RU for neutral damage certainly warrants B-Tier coming off base 95 ATK. Also, Base 90 speed lets Kanga outrun Gallade and both Hitmons which would normally force her out. She certainly has a niche, but definitely needs team support to be effective. Thoughts?
  21. Worldtour

    Worldtour aka Swamp-Rocket
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,485
    Discussing the proposed changes...

    [QUOTE]Zangoose DOWN from A rank to B rank[/QUOTE]

    There are a lot of Fighting types in RU, and the Steel-types can usually take a Close Combat. I think it should be B-rank, though I need to see more Zangoose for me to get the true grasp. However, the main problem is that it is so difficult to get the Toxic Boost!

    I'm not a Ferroseed user, but Ferroseed is SO FREAKING WEAK. I think it needs to be a C-tier Pokemon since it is set-up fodder for a massive amount of Pokemon.

    I... honestly don't think Magneton is very effective. Its main problems is that it doesn't do good against some Steel-types in the tier. Steelix destroys, Klinklang would have set up by then, Durant crushes it, Escavalier does enough, and Ferroseed... isn't doing enough damage to anything in the first place.

    Hitmonchan is a very, very crappy spinner, but I have used it to some success as an All-Out Attacker. It is actually pretty effective, as Close Combat really hurts some Pokemon more than you would expect, Iron Fist Mach Punch is pretty powerful, and its Thunderpunch and Fire Punch also are really cool, as Slowking is 2HKOed, Moltres dislikes it heavily, and Fire Punch lays a smack down on Escavalier. However, a LOT of things wall it, such as Cresselia, and status is just too much. Its niche is also really small - I would never use it as a Rapid Spinner, but Mach Punch + elemental punches works. I'd keep it at D-Rank, though, since it really is an outclassed Pokemon at most other roles.

    All the others I agree on but cannot really discuss.

    I really do think that Rotom-C should be A-Ranked. Compared to everything else in the list it just really isn't as dominant as them. I don't think of it as I think of the other Pokemon on the list (a Pokemon that always needs to be prepared for or else you're screwed).
  22. Molk

    Molk rip houndoom
    is a Tutoris a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    RU Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    3,640

    Because im writing the zangoose analysis, i have had to use it for a few battles to see how it does, and i honestly think zangoose is a solid A rank. What i usually did to get the toxic boost with zangoose was to either double switch him in, use u-turn to get him in, or send him in on a weakened opponent after a KO, i think i got the toxic boost in every match ive played so far actually. Most of the fighting types in RU are being sent downhill thanks to the introduction of cresselia, and NONE of them can switch in on zangoose at all, actually. In fact, all of them except hariyama and physically defensive poliwrath are OHKOed by toxic boost facade, and take a lot from close combat even before the toxic boost. here are come calcs

    [​IMG]
    toxic boost zangoose facade vs 0/0 Gallade: 493 Atk vs 166 Def & 277 HP (140 Base Power): 447 - 526 (161.37% - 189.89%)

    unboosted facade: 329 Atk vs 166 Def & 277 HP (70 Base Power): 150 - 177 (54.15% - 63.90%)

    zangoose outspeeds so gallade cant come in on zangoose at all, and sure as hell cant revenge kill unless its scarfed or something. Also, toxic boosted quick attack+unboosted facade should be able to knock out even scarfed gallade!

    [​IMG]
    toxic boost zangoose facade vs 40/0 Hitmonchan: 493 Atk vs 194 Def & 251 HP (140 Base Power): 382 - 450 (152.19% - 179.28%)

    unboosted facade: 329 Atk vs 194 Def & 251 HP (70 Base Power): 127 - 151 (50.60% - 60.16%)

    toxic Boost quick attack: 493 Atk vs 194 Def & 251 HP (40 Base Power): 109 - 130 (43.43% - 51.79%)

    Admittedly hitmonchan can revenge kill with mach punch if its at full health, but it cant come in on zangoose regardless if it has toxic boost or not, because non toxic boost facade+toxic boost quick attack knocks it out

    [​IMG]
    toxic boost zangoose facade vs 0/0 Hitmonlee: 493 Atk vs 142 Def & 241 HP (140 Base Power): 522 - 615 (216.60% - 255.19%)

    unboosted facade: 329 Atk vs 142 Def & 241 HP (70 Base Power): 175 - 207 (72.61% - 85.89%)

    boosted quick attack: 493 Atk vs 142 Def & 241 HP (40 Base Power): 150 - 177 (62.24% - 73.44%)

    lee doesnt fare nearly as well as chan, but at least fake out can hurt goose a little bit i guess...

    [​IMG]
    Toxic boost zangoose facade vs 0/0 medicham: 493 Atk vs 186 Def & 261 HP (140 Base Power): 399 - 469 (152.87% - 179.69%)

    unboosted facade: 329 Atk vs 186 Def & 261 HP (70 Base Power): 135 - 159 (51.72% - 60.92%)

    boosted quick attack: 493 Atk vs 186 Def & 261 HP (40 Base Power): 115 - 136 (44.06% - 52.11%)

    Medicham also has major trouble coming in, it can come in on an unboosted close combat at least, so ill give you that, but also note that zangoose outspeeds every set except scarf :/

    [​IMG]
    toxic boost facade vs 252/252+ Poliwrath: 493 Atk vs 317 Def & 384 HP (140 Base Power): 234 - 276 (60.94% - 71.88%)

    unboosted facade: 329 Atk vs 317 Def & 384 HP (70 Base Power): 79 - 94 (20.57% - 24.48%)

    unboosted close combat: 329 Atk vs 317 Def & 384 HP (120 Base Power): 90 - 106 (23.44% - 27.60%)

    Poliwrath actually has a decent shot of living zangoose's onslaught if the first hit doesnt factor in toxic boost, but it will be left with just a sliver of health left, and just keels over to zangoose if it already has the toxic boost ;-;.

    [​IMG]
    toxic boost facade vs 0/252+ Hariyama: 493 Atk vs 240 Def & 429 HP (140 Base Power): 309 - 364 (72.03% - 84.85%)

    unboosted facade: 329 Atk vs 240 Def & 429 HP (70 Base Power): 103 - 123 (24.01% - 28.67%)

    unboosted close combat: 329 Atk vs 240 Def & 429 HP (120 Base Power): 119 - 140 (27.74% - 32.63%)

    Im not 100% sure, but i think hariyama has a small chance to live non toxic boost+toxic boost, but the vast majority of the time its getting 2hkoed, and this is the defensive set...

    [​IMG]
    toxic boost facade vs 0/0 Primeape: 493 Atk vs 156 Def & 271 HP (140 Base Power): 475 - 559 (175.28% - 206.27%)

    unboosted facade: 329 Atk vs 156 Def & 271 HP (70 Base Power): 160 - 189 (59.04% - 69.74%)

    boosted quick attack: 493 Atk vs 156 Def & 271 HP (40 Base Power): 136 - 162 (50.18% - 59.78%)

    Primeape cant come in on zangoose at all either sadly, but primeape is actually an okay check if you play very carefully, its the only fighting type that outspeeds zangoose even without a scarf, although CC defensive drops will really hurt...

    About the steel types, steels are decent checks for zangoose if you predict correctly, and zangoose actually needs stealth rock+1 layer of spikes to 2hko steelix with close combat even with toxic boost, but some of the other steels dont fare as well, for example, zangoose can actually 2hko escavalier with facade, and pick off a durant trying to switch in with quick attack after rocks+1 round of LO recoil.

    Toxic boost zangoose facade vs 252/0 Escavalier: 493 Atk vs 246 Def & 344 HP (140 Base Power): 150 - 177 (43.60% - 51.45%) 99.41% chance to 2hko after stealth rock.

    Zangoose does have some flaws, though, which are why he isnt S rank/high RU already (i dont even think people realize zangoose exists with its low usage >_>). It has trouble switching in thanks to its fraility, and toxic orb puts it on a bit of a timer, but there are at least two other A/S rank mons that also have trouble switching in off of the top of my head, and even with a timer, when it comes to something with as much damage potential as zangoose, its not that hard to get 3 KOs in 3 turns, especially mid to late game. Zangoose has a lack of safe switch ins (spiritomb being the only one in RU i can think of off hand, lol). But it can be played around with smart switching, for example predicting around zangoose with a steelix and say misdreavus, lure in a night slash with misdreavus and send in steelix to take the hit, same thing with steelix and close combat, but do note that SD zangoose can take advantage of this (but it has to choose between being able to be revenge killed or hitting misdreavus, so maybe not the best example, lol).

    (wow, this post was a huge TL;DR, lol, but basically what im saying is that the majority of the fighting types in the tier cannot directly, or possibly even indirectly deal with zangoose, also note how the majority of the RU fighting types are (or should) be going down in usage thanks to the new introduction of cresselia, making zangoose's life even easier because it has a good pivot to fall back on! steel types are a legitimate problem, especially steelix, but can be worked around with proper prediction, and zangoose can actually 2hko some resists with its facade. Zangoose is incredibly hard to switch in to thanks to its almost over the top power and good coverage, but it does have some flaws, which are why it isnt placed above A, i would be okay with moving goose down to B if you really want it, but i think hes A worthy personally ;-;).

    With the other things you mentioned in your post, i agree with all of them, nice input =D! I was also considering moving Rotom-C to A, and ill be sure to add it to the new proposed changes next time we change ranks! Thanks for your contribution, Swamp-Rocket!
  23. Phazon00

    Phazon00

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2012
    Messages:
    167
    I agree that Goose is a solid A. I used it, and it doesn't disappoint. The ability to OHKO most of the pokes in RU after a Toxic Boost, as well as powerful STAB priority.
  24. Ghostbone

    Ghostbone

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2012
    Messages:
    81
    Yea I have to agree with Zangoose staying A rank, unparalleled power, access to a STAB with great neutral coverage, the coverage options to hit pokes that wall its STAB, powerful priority in quick attack, and the ability to boost with swords dance really cements it's position as a top tier threat in RU.
  25. Koinzell

    Koinzell

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2010
    Messages:
    107
    Imo, Magneton should be C Rank.

    I'm using Specs Timid Magneton and I feel like it's very effective in the current meta for the following reasons :

    • Nidoqueen, Kabutops and SD Fera (almost) always go with Modest/Adamant
    • Steelix always uses Phys defensive EV spread, so he takes a lot from Specs HP Fire
    • Escavalier is on the rise due to Cress and HP Fire Magneton is an auto-win against it
    Here are Calcs against the 5 RU Steels that Magneton can trap :

    • Hidden Power Fire against 252/36 Steelix 82.48 - 97.17%
    • Hidden Power Fire against 248/8 Escavalier 120.11 - 142.27%
    • Hidden Power Fire against 252/4 Ferroseed 112.32 - 132.87%
    • Thunderbolt against 116/0 Aggron 106.77 - 126.12%
    • Thunderbolt against 100/0 Klinklang 88.11 - 103.84%
    In those five, only Aggron and Steelix have a way to OHKO Magneton on the switch, so there is really no prediction involved with the other 3.

    • CB Megahorn from Adamant Escavalier 71.48 - 84.29%
    • +1 LO Return from Adamant Kinklang 42.56 - 50.41%
    Not bothering with Calcs involving Ferroseed, but it's interesting to note that Ferroseed tend to use Leech Seed on the switch instead of Spikes, in a attempt to cripple a potencial Sub Charge set.

    Like all trappers, Magneton likes U-Turn/Volt Switch support. Uxie/Mesprit make excellent partners because the 5 Steel types tend to switch into them. Choice Specs means Magneton is not useless outside of Steel trapping, Magneton is the strongest Electric type in the tier his STAB Flash Cannon can 2HKO all Nidoqueen and OHKO Sandslash or Rhydon. STAB Thunderbolt can 2HKO Clefable with just a bit of prior damage.

    There are also other sets that Magneton can run: a Choice Scarf set can trap Durant and SubCharge with Eviolite is still viable, but I feel like these sets are worse than Choice Specs. I'm not pushing for more than C Rank because Lanturn exists, it hard walls any set lacking HP Ground, and without HP Fire Magneton can no longer trap Escavalier.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)