The RU Viability Ranking Thread

Discussion in 'BW RU' started by Molk, Oct 5, 2012.

  1. Molk

    Molk idk
    is a Tutoris a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnus
    RU Leader

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,988

    just going to vote a few things about magneton atm.

    One thing i wanted to note is that magneton actually CANNOT check durant unless it is holding a choice scarf or misses, durant got superpower from the BW2 move tutors, which absolutely destroys the magnets. This means that magneton cannot switch in on durant, and thanks to its low speed, it cannot come in to revenge kill durant either, this is how much life orb hustle superpower does to magneton:

    475 Atk vs 226 Def & 241 HP (120 Base Power): 468 - 552 (194.19% - 229.05%)

    Also, Durant can deal major damage to magneton on the switch even without superpower, because life orb hustle X-Scissor can 2hko, heres a calc for proof:

    475 Atk vs 226 Def & 241 HP (80 Base Power): 117 - 138 (48.55% - 57.26%).

    Also, as you mentioned before with the escavalier calc, magneton has to be at full health to be able to come in on escavalier, and if its below 70%, its basically going to be OHKOed 100% of the time, magneton also has to be at at least 85% health to completely escape the chance of being OHKOed by escavalier on the switch, this means that magneton will have to come in on the revenge kill to handle escavalier. This gives escavalier the chance to get a free KO on one of your pokemon just for you to revenge kill it with magneton, and if for some reason escavalier doesnt KO/misses, escavalier can avoid being trapped by magneton because magneton cannot directly come in on escavalier from that range ;_;.

    Another thing i felt i wanted to mention is that silentverse mentioned something about specs ANALYTIC magneton having a niche, i personally dont see the merit of using magneton without magnet pull, but i guess with analytic and enough speed to speed creep something important and then be slower than everything else you want to KO, magneton can become a powerful force thats nearly impossible to counter defensively, thoughts?
  2. Koinzell

    Koinzell

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2010
    Messages:
    90
    Yeah, with BW2 move tutors, only Choice Scarf Magneton stands a chance against Durant and even then, you must be careful not to switch into Superpower. Although I suppose Specs Magneton can revenge CB Durant if for some reason he locks himself into Iron Head.

    The key thing with Analytic is that it activates on switches, so I'll still go with max speed with a Timid nature. Specs Magneton is too frail to afford being slower than his foes. The following calcs come from Timid Specs Analytic Magneton hitting stuff on the switch :

    • HP Ground against 40/252 + Lanturn 59.85 - 70.82%
    • Thunderbolt against 252/252 + Clefable 55.83 - 66.24%
    • HP Ground against 4/0 Nidoqueen 100 - 118.01%
    I'll still go with Magnet Pull, but the OHKO on Nidoqueen is pretty nice.
  3. Molk

    Molk idk
    is a Tutoris a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnus
    RU Leader

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,988
    Im just letting you guys know that i have moved Magneton up from D rank to C rank. I didnt think much of him due to how niche he is as a steel killer, while being average to mediocre everywhere else, but his ability to trap and kill Steels, while also hitting really damn hard (i wasnt aware it hit harder than every other electric-type in RU, lol), combined with an excellent typing of electric/steel that gives magneton an impressive 13 resistances cements magneton's niche as a solid C rank Pokemon imo. The specs set was quite impressive when i tried it out btw!


    theres probably going to be more to come later today, but i need to read through all the posts again to review the arguments :<.


    EDIT: Im also moving Garbodor and Kangaskhan up to their respective ranks! Ive used both in the past and i personally feel that both of them will be fine where they are atm, Garbodor is a good poison-type spiker that can check grasses such as sceptile and Lilligant, while also OHKOing the two most prominent spinners in the tier, Kabutops and Cryogonal, with the appropriate move, Garbodor is a unique and surprisingly effective spiker on certain teams and deserves to be moved up! Kangaskhan reminds me a lot of Tauros, a Pokemon that has been deemed to be one of the most underrated pokemon in the tier, and while the kangaroo recieves stiff competition from Da Bull, Scrappy and better overall bulk make sure Kangaskhan isnt overshadowed as a Choice Bander, plus, she can run a pretty effective subpunch set as well!


    Zangoose is Staying A rank for now. A few people doubted his potential as a good A rank pokemon due to lack of experience utilizing it, but after using it myself, and getting a few other people to try him out, we agreed that Zangoose is fine where it is. As mentioned multiple times before, Zangoose has nearly unmatched power, good coverage, a decent speed tier, and even priority to pick off weakened opponents that might happen to outspeed the mongoose! Zangoose is also a pro at forcing switches against a defensive team, as most stall teams have to rely on prediction to stop it from taking out a pokemon or two!

    Hitmonchan is Staying D rank for now. Honestly, me and multiple other people on #rarelyused were quite baffled on why Hitmonchan was being nominated to be moved at all, we decided to give him a shot in the current meta and both his rapid spin and Life Orb attacker sets were quite underwhelming. Hitmonchan has major trouble pulling off a Rapid Spin without Foresight, and Foresight takes up on important moveslot that could be used for a much better move such as Drain Punch, Ice Punch, or Mach Punch. Without any of these, hitmonchan isnt nearly as usable as it is with all 3, and thats saying something! The offensive Life Orb attacker fared better, but had quite a bit of trouble knocking out some bulkier Pokemon such as Slowking even with super effective coverage moves, and while its Mach Punch was decently powerful, it wasnt enough to make up for Hitmonchan's only average base Speed. Also, as has been mentioned a ton of times before, the new addition of cresselia to the RU tier makes fighting-types struggle a lot in general, and sadly, i think that Hitmonchan is the bottom of the barrel right now :/.


    Although many of the proposed changes were discussed both on the forums and on irc, some changes still havent been looked into enough to make an official change of placement, these changes are still up for discussion, as are the new proposed changes that have been Nominated!

    Here is the new list of proposed changes:

    Aerodactyl UP from B rank to A rank

    Ferroseed UP from C rank to B rank

    Ludicolo UP from Untested rank to B rank

    Charizard UP from Untested rank to C rank

    Primeape DOWN from B rank to C rank

    Rotom-C DOWN from S rank to A rank

    Uxie DOWN from S rank to A rank

    Lets discuss!
  4. Yonko7

    Yonko7 Guns make you stupid. Duct tape makes you smart.
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2012
    Messages:
    650
    I agree with Uxie going down to A rank.

    Uxie has lost a lot of its fervor now that Cresselia is around, as the "bulky Psychic-type". Its niche of having Stealth Rock and Momento isn't enough to secure it in S. Additionally, it might have great bulk, but lack of recovery really hurts, as then it can't take as many poundings.

    I agree with Primeape going down to C. Although, it does still have Vital Spirit to avoid Sleep, with Cresselia in the tier is simply isn't good anymore. Also, a Choiced Fighting-type isn't good anyway with Ghost, and Psychics around.
  5. Ghostbone

    Ghostbone

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2012
    Messages:
    81
    Just want to mention that the EV spread suggested on Smogon sucks if you were using that for the rapid spin set.
    The best spread imo is 252 HP/172 Def/82+ Sp.Def (enough bulk to always avoid the 2HKO from LO cryogonal's ice beam after rocks, rest goes into Def to take various resisted moves better, as well as EQ/gyro balls).
    Running speed is dumb because then steelix has a powered up gyro ball, and running attack doesn't really make sense when you're just trying to spin and beat many hazard setters (who either have resisted STABs or a fighting weakness)
    But eh if the decision has been made there's not much I can do about it.
  6. Phazon00

    Phazon00

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2012
    Messages:
    167
    I agree with Yonko that Cress pushes Uxie down to A, as it is a better bulky Psychic-Type, and the wide movepool of Uxie does not save it.

    However, I disagree with Rotom-C in A. This thing is such a threat that it deserves S, even if S tier is getting cluttered, it should NOT leave the tier. For "Low Risk" and "Very Few Flaws" not many RU pokes show this like Rotom-C. Rotom-C stays in S.
  7. Koinzell

    Koinzell

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2010
    Messages:
    90
    Most of the changes seem good, but I agree with Phazon00, Rotom-C is still S-Rank material. Nothing has really changed for it : Things that are immune to Volt Switch, risk a OHKO or 2HKO by STAB Leaf Storm and stuff that resist Volt Switch tend to be slow and easy to force out. It's also quite bulky and versatile with access to Will'O'Wisp, Pain Split or Trick. Rotom-C is the best scarfer in the tier imo, and his other sets are also pretty good.

    Proposed change : Seismitoad DOWN from B to C.

    I always found Support Seismitoad to be quite mediocre, his bulk is clearly unimpressive, he lacks recovery and Water Absorb sounds cool until you realize that Seismitoad, having no way to hurt or pHaze Water types, actualy loses to Fera or Samurott. Competition with Poliwrath is really cruel for Seismitoad as he only has 2 things over his Fighting type brethen :

    • Seismitoad walls Lanturn. But Lanturn is no powerhouse, it's a defensive threat and walling it doesn't prevent it from switching into your Manectric again, again and again. So the real question is, what are you doing with the free turns Lanturn gives you ? And with his uninvested base 85 offenses Seismitoad isn't doing much.
    • Seismitoad learns Stealth Rock. But we clearly don't lack SR users in RU, so it might be wise to use something that is either more threatening or checks more stuff, both in most cases.

    Rain Dance Seismitoad is good, but he needs a dedicated (Rain) team around him, and that should keep him out of B Rank. Outside of Rain teams, Seismitoad suffers from the comparison with Ludicolo, which has far less checks and counters. Amounguss and Slowking hardcounter Rain Dance Seismitoad and are not exactly easy to kill due to Regenerator, lack of Ice Beam means pretty much any Dragon checks Seismitoad.
  8. Swamp-Rocket

    Swamp-Rocket screw economics!
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,297
    Considering the list of Pokemon that are S-Ranked in RU (aside from Uxie)...

    [​IMG] Cresselia - So bulky that it singlehandedly caused a fall in Fighting-type Pokemon usage. Thi,s along with its instant recovery, make Cresselia extremely difficult to take down if you lack a boosted STAB Supereffective move.
    [​IMG] Entei - A Flare Blitz coming from this thing 2HKOs every Pokemon in the metagame that doesn't resist it other than Cresselia, which is scary. Its Extreemespeed is among the strongest priority moves in the tier, and along with that it is somewhat fast and has a good amount of bulk.
    [​IMG] Escavalier - Extremely powerful with its Megahorn and 135 base Attack, which makes it nigh impossible to switch into. Almost a risk-free STAB too, unlike Pokemon with Leaf Storm that have to switch out due to stat drop. Its Steel-typing = lots of chances to switch in.
    [​IMG] Kabutops - Hands down the best spinner in the metagame. It is a very dangerous offensive threat as well, thanks to a potent STAB combo, priority, and Swords Dance, so it can deal a massive amount of damage while keeping entry hazards away at the same time.
    [​IMG] Moltres - Arguably the most powerful Special Attacker in the entire metagame. Although it needs Stealth Rock support, the ability to 2HKO everything other than sucklax is very potent, and even if it uses its bulk, 125 Base Special Attack with two 120 Base Power moves hurts a lot without investment.
    [​IMG] Nidoqueen - Fairly self explanitory. Immune to Paralysis, Life Orb recoil, AND toxic damage, so it is impossible to stall out (Burn won't do anything). It also has incredible coverage and a lot of power. Its bulk is decent enough to take a hit and occasionally OHKO the said attacker back.
    [​IMG] Sceptile - #1 in the usage stats should say enough, but it is one of the most dangerous Special Attackers due to its stupidly high speed and a very powerful Leaf Storm. Focus Blast also means that Steel-types can't wall it. It can even attack on the physical side or attempt to SubSeed.

    When I think of these Pokemon, I think "these Pokemon MUST be considered on a team - if you don't prepare for them you will struggle greatly.

    However, Rotom-C is different. While it is very versatile and can disrupt you a lot while still hitting pretty hard with Volt Switch and such, Rotom-C lacks in coverage. Considering that all the above Pokemon Pokemon can get perfect coverage in their STABs (other than Sceptile and Escavalier, but Escavalier 2HKOs resistors often and Sceptile has a lot of coverage options), Rotom-C is exposed to more things. All Grass-types resist Rotom-C's STABs, and Rotom-C doesn't run that many coverage moves due to 4MSS. Its still a very good Pokemon, but it isn't quite as powerful and it doesn't have as many moves, making it more comparable to and A-Rank Pokemon.

    I still think Ferroseed should be C-Ranked (explained it in my last post), and all the other proposed changes I agree with.
  9. Slory

    Slory

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2011
    Messages:
    85
    Like I said before I feel like Ferroseed is fine in C Rank. I give another argument: Ferroseed agrees with the description of C Rank:
    Ferroseed has important flaws like the aforementioned no offensive presence, that prevent Ferroseed from being B matieral imo

    I also support Ludicolo to B Rank. Ludicolo is one of the most threatenig Pokemon under rain; with fantastic type in Grass / Water, and his amazing coverage, Ludicolo is too difficult to counter. Also, Ludicolo is quite bulky even without EVs investment and can switch on a lot of things like Lanturn, Steelix or Tangrowth, and even can take some priorities like Sucker Punch or Aqua Jet, resisting it x4, the most common priority.
  10. TROP

    TROP FUCK DRUDDIGON

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2011
    Messages:
    711
    Okay, taking 2 hits from Nidoqueen and living to tell it is unimpressive.

    252SpAtk Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen (+SAtk) Earth Power vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Water Absorb Seismitoad (+SpDef): 39% - 47% (165 - 195 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.


    No way to hurt other water-types, are you serious? Earth Power still does a 30% at worst the bulkiest offensive ones(Gatr and Samurott) and while it can't do much to Slowking, poisoning is a victory against it when defensive Slowking can barely hurt Seismitoad . And competition with Poliwrath? This is wrong for one particular reason: defensive Seismitoad is mostly ev'd to take on special attacks while still being bulky enough to take some physical ones, not to mention that if Seismitoad wants to go the physically defensive route, it takes almost the same damage than Poliwrath from most attacks and still wall most of the same things not called Durant that beats both anyway.


    Feraligatr is not as good as it was before and can only use Return that is not even a 2hko if silly DD, Seismitoad can also take a +2 Return and go for the Burn. Offensive Seismitoad can still take a +2 return and do about 70% back with earth power, or if you really want to OHKO, grass knot does that. Oh yeah, Seismitoad is faster. No need to worry about losing here if Gatr took something down before Seismitoad came in.

    Oh shit a water type not called Lanturn losing to Samurott, SURPRISING. Seriously, unless it is Lanturn or champion Frillish, Mixed Samurott will beat all water-types in the tier without really trying.

    Emergency checking Manectric, taking nothing from defensive rotom except a burn and dealing plenty of damage to subsplit with scald, walling most swift swimmers, and surviving against queen is not good enough over its fellow water-types is not good enough. I got it
    Show Hide

    252SpAtk Manectric (Neutral) Hidden Power (Grass) vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Water Absorb Seismitoad (+SpDef): 55% - 65% (228 - 272 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    252SpAtk Choice Specs Manectric (Neutral) Hidden Power (Grass) vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Water Absorb Seismitoad (+SpDef): 82% - 97% (340 - 404 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    252SpAtk Life Orb Rotom (Neutral) Shadow Ball vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Water Absorb Seismitoad (+SpDef): 28% - 34% (120 - 141 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.

    0SpAtk Seismitoad (Neutral) Scald vs 0HP/0SpDef Leftovers Levitate Rotom(Neutral): 38% - 46% (93 - 111 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

    0SpAtk Seismitoad (Neutral) Scald vs 252HP/0SpDef Leftovers Levitate Rotom(Neutral): 30% - 36% (93 - 111 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.

    252SpAtk Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen (+SAtk) Earth Power vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Water Absorb Seismitoad (+SpDef): 39% - 47% (165 - 195 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

    0 SpA Seismitoad Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Nidoqueen: 194-230 (60.24 - 71.42%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    And are you really expecting a mostly defensive mon to do plenty of damage? Unless it is something like motherfucking Groudon, that is not happening anytime soon. Also, Seismitoad has better offenses than most defensive mons in the tier. His moves also have decent bp and backed up by STAB.

    Point of using SR seismitoad is fitting it on a rain team without needing Uxie.It also checks plenty of Dangerous threats all at once such as Entei, kabutops, NIDOQUEEN, and most electric-types, allowing it to possibly free multiple teamslots on your team if you don't want to run it on a rain team.

    It doesn't need a team around him for the rain set to be effective at all. It can easily use a Rain Dance+LO ala Ludicolo to do plenty of damage for 5 turns while taking minor damage from priority not named Sucker Punch. And surprise, a lot of pokemon beat a single swift swimmer, that is why a rain team should have ways around those, in the case of those two you mentioned , mighty Specs Swanna(molk, add this to D please) that has pretty good synergy with Seismitoad, at worst 2hkoes those with her Hurricane. In case of using Seismitoad without a dedicated rain dance team, then something like sub rotom will help seismitoad with those two without really trying.

    If by any dragon you mean Druddigon, then you re correct. Others Dragons don't stand a chance against rain Seismitoad and fear a burn from the bulky version. Dragonair and Altaria can be added to the list , but they are not very good in RU. Forgot something, RU only has two viable Dragon-Types: Druddigon and Fraxure.


    The only thing stopping Seismitoad from being at least A rank is lack of reliable recovery.
  11. haelcher

    haelcher

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2011
    Messages:
    1
    I would like to suggest adding Cacturne and Swanna to untested at least. They were both featured in recent Research Weeks, so it seems fair that they should at least get some kind of tier. Gabite and Basculin, two Pokemon I would not have considered as high priority for this list, were introduced in a serious RU sense from a Research Week thread and now have a tier (Gabite is still untested I think), so it only makes sense that Cacturne and Swanna would be added as well.

    Also, I thought Musharna was B tier before the suspects were reintroduced. Now it's just... not there. Although its viability may have decreased, I think it should still have a tier (even if it is D or E), since we do have tiers for pokemon who are mostly outclassed.
  12. Aurist

    Aurist

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2012
    Messages:
    19
    I'd like to offer some feedback here as something of an outsider but one who still more or less understands the metagame. I'm an LU leader on PO (not that that makes my post any more worth listening to per se!) and have experience in the RU metagame. I feel like there's really quite a lot of things wrong with a lot of this list.

    Kabutops in S: While being a solid and useful pokemon in the meta Kabutops is in no way definitive to the meta nor worthy of a position like an S-ranking. Its less than amazing bulk, mildly low speed and slight lack of power means while being a great spinner and good SD mon it's in no way an "amazing" pokemon. A ranking imo.
    Rotom-C in S: It's a great pokemon and a versatile one too. It's just not "amazing" enough at anything to be any higher than A.
    Escavalier in S: It feels almost too obvious to say here, but its speed cripples it so insanely that while being an absolute top threat it's not worth an S. Go for A, imo.
    Fraxure in A: Feel surprised I'm debating this point, but Fraxure is a low-level threat in RU. I'd call it a B cos you guys seem to like it a lot but personally I'd put it as low as C.
    Spiritomb in A: Spiritomb honestly does not function well in the RU meta and is barely beneficial for any team to run. I'd honestly put it in C.
    Slowking in A: The fact Slowking isn't immediately in S makes this whole thing feel really questionable. Slowking is an absolutely definitive pokemon in RU and a major glue for any team.
    Tauros in A: This thing is like, a D at best, lol, it's horribly outclassed
    Swellow in B: Swellow is simply not the powerhouse in RU that it is on paper. It doesn't fit well into the RU meta. A C, imo.
    Hitmonlee in C: Hitmonlee loses a lot in a meta with Cresselia, no doubt, but it's still one of the #1 threats for any offensive teams to face and belongs in a solid B at least.
    Liepard in C: Gimmick pokemon don't belong in C. D at best.
    Medicham in C: Again loses out in a Cresselia meta but wrecks shit way too hard to be in a damn section that contains Linoone. It's a B, imo, but whatever.
    Typhlosion in C: When you have Magmortar in A I'm not sure exactly why this thing is in C? This is a solid B.
    Hitmonchan in D: Hitmonchan is a solid reliable pokemon, it's no Kabutops or Cryogonal when it comes to spinning but it has its place. It's a C.
    Pineco in D: It's nigh-unusable. Even Munchlax is more useful than it. It shouldn't even be on the list, but if it is, then E.

    Sorry to come on here and be all "you're wrong" but I felt there was enough questionable stuff in the list to make this post.
  13. Molk

    Molk idk
    is a Tutoris a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnus
    RU Leader

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,988
    Im not going to make any more changes at the moment, but i would like to let you all know that i moved Ludicolo up to B rank for the time being. Ludicolo has always been really good and quite underrated imo, i agree with all the points made about ludicolo on the forums and on irc, its a really good rain sweeper, and its typing is pretty nice both offensively and defensively. I tested Ludicolo out on a full rain team recently and was very impressed! Ludicolo performed exceptionally well both against the mighty ladder and against decent players, its rain boosted hydro pump is a force to be reckoned with, 2hkoing threats such as cresselia and doing upwards of 40% to an amoonguss i faced (dunno what spread it had, though). Its excellent coverage between its water/grass/ice moves makes it pretty challenging to actually counter, and to make things worse for the opponent, it can set up its own rain as a standalone sweeper! Ludicolo has enough power under rain to run a timid nature so it can outrun adamant kabutops outside of rain, imo, it gives ludicolo a chance to set up rain dance vs an offensive team, and gives your team a solid kabutops check. From what ive seen so far i think i could get away with ranking ludicolo higher, but ill keep it B for now...

    @aurist

    I agree with some of your points, and i disagree with others, ill list what i agree/disagree with and what im neutral on, and then highlight some that i think are worth discussing more

    Agree:

    Rotom-C
    Spiritomb
    Hitmonlee
    Typhlosion
    Medicham

    Disagree:

    Kabutops
    Swellow
    Tauros
    Hitmonchan

    I dont agree nor disagree, so i think this would be cool to discuss:

    Slowking (thought this would happen earlier, lol)
    Escavalier
    Liepard
    Fraxure

    Notable shit:

    Typhlosion: One of the main reasons typhlosion was C rank when i posted this was because i wasnt the only one working on the ranks, and quite a few people, including myself were judging typhlosion off of its shitty as fuck scarf set (seriously, why do people use this, i dont get it). There are two other typhlosion sets that may be cool, though. Ive heard good things about Choice Specs and sunny day, and i think it might be worth moving typhlosion up tbh. Nobody wants to deal with a specs full power eruption, or a blaze specs fire blast :s. I would like to hear some other thoughts on this.

    Slowking: Im honestly surprised that moving slowking up to S wasnt brought up before, its always been a big threat in the RU tier, quite a few people felt it wasnt as metagame defining as before in BW2, though. I didnt exactly agree or disagree, so i just stuck slowking in A to prevent myself from being flamed. I havent used the defensive set in a while, but it has a lot of competition with cresselia atm, so ill ignore that. I REALLY like Choice Specs and OTR, though. Thanks to great coverage, good bulk and decent defensive typing for RU, and most importantly regenerator, both of these sets are excellent offensive pivots for HO and balanced teams alike. I havent used specs in a while, but i really like the combination of OTR slowking+band escavalier to just destroy everything with their good synergy, shitty speed, and excellent power/coverage. I think this might be an interesting debate, and will add this to proposed changes for sure!

    Also, just going to point out that a few of the things you mentioned were the result of a certain user (not mentioning names) fucking with the ranks before i posted them, i didnt notice like 3 of them (spiritomb is an example) until just now, haha. Im going to move it down to where it was supposed to be without any problems (B rank).
  14. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest all hail Greninja
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,263
    commentary in bold

    EDIT:

    Also, why is Scyther in C-Rank? I've used it and it's quite a good Pokemon. Although Scyther has an awful defensive typing and such, after an SD boost he can be hard to stop. Aerial Ace and Bug Bite both boosted by Techician. He can OHKO most of the tier. Quick Attack is also nice. Brick Break is a decent coverage move to handle Ferroseed and the likes. While Scyther does have issues in shit typing defensively, and such, he has no trouble slicing and dicing his way through teams. I honestly believe Scyther is B-Rank material.

    Also, Drifblim has a place in C-Rank. He's a decent Acro sweeper but just outclassed by Sceptile. Also, he's a good weather support mon. SubCM was a fantastic set for Blim, and with a Sitrus Berry he could easily attain Unburden. Salac could work too. Drifblim is good, but I think C-Rank is good for it.
  15. New Breed

    New Breed

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2012
    Messages:
    232
    Hey Aurist nice to see you posting here!!!!!!!!

    Anyway to talk about some of the things you posted..

    Tauros: I cannot disagree with you more on this one, Tauros is one of the premier wall breakers in the RU tier, being able to destroy 2 of the most common Physical walls Steelix and Tangrowth with a well timed Sheer Force boosted Fire Blast coupled with QuakeEdge coverage and a super powerful Sheer Force boosted Rock Climb (seriously someone needs to test Tauros for performance enhancing drugs) Tauros is a solid A imo and wouldn't look out of place in the S tier.

    Kabutops: Easily the best spinner in the tier currently, A simple set of SD/Aqua Jet/Stone Edge/Rapid Spin allows Kabutops to beat every single Ghost type in the tier, Kabutops has defined the metagame over the last few rounds.
  16. kokoloko

    kokoloko I fill the bag.
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Past SPL Winner
    Underused Leader

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2009
    Messages:
    3,000
    I think the S-rank is a little overcrowded to be honest. When I think of S-rank Pokemon I think of things that define the metagame--think Cresselia, Moltres, Nidoqueen. I honestly don't see Rotom-C, Entei, or Uxie being at that level. Sure they're great Pokemon, but they're not what I'd call metagame-defining. Not with shit like Cress around. I would like to see those three moved down to A.

    In the same vein, I don't think Drapion, Absol, Cryogonal, Lanturn, Poliwrath, or Magmortar are quite good enough to be A-ranked. I know people have this weird fetish for Poliwrath in this tier, but its lack of reliable recovery and vulnerability to really dangerous shit like Sceptile makes it hard for me to see it as an A-ranked mon. The others are just not really that good to be honest. Lanturn being the only good Moltres counter doesn't necessarily make it A, imo. Fraxure is another one that I don't think is A-rank material, but its a baller so I don't mind it being there.

    Galvantula and Aggron is stupidly good, even with Nidoqueen around, I honestly don't think they should be any lower than A. Same goes for Aerodactyl and Braviary. Cinccino too, if Cress fucks off.

    Just my 2 cents.
  17. Molk

    Molk idk
    is a Tutoris a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnus
    RU Leader

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,988
    Okay i made a few changes because of some irc discussion, heres a brief summary of the changes that were made

    I moved Uxie and Rotom-C down from S rank to A rank

    I moved Magmortar down from A rank to B rank

    I moved Misdreavus, Regirock, Crustle, Primeape and Archeops down from B rank to C rank

    There were also some new proposed changes talked about on irc, im going to list them here.

    Slowking UP from A rank to S Rank

    Typhlosion UP from C rank to B rank

    Cinccino UP from B rank to A rank

    Aggron UP from B rank to A rank

    Scolipede UP from C rank to B rank

    Hitmonlee UP from C rank to B rank

    Medicham UP from C rank to B rank

    Samurott DOWN from B rank to C rank

    Emboar DOWN from B rank to C rank

    Exeggutor UP from C rank to B rank

    as you can see, there is a lot going on in irc! haha, ill just say right now that i agree with/am indifferent to the majority of these with the exception of maybe emboar, all uninplemented proposed changes are still up for discussion, so you can talk about those too!

    Also, as we are trying to clean up S rank, we are also trying to clean up B rank a little bit, of course its going to be the biggest rank no matter what, but it seems to be getting just a little overcrowded lately, maybe thats just me though....
  18. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf meh
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Contributor Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2009
    Messages:
    7,126
    Remove Metang, Pineco, and Liepard from the list. This list should be representative of relevant pokemon one can expect to see in high end battles, not stuff you can use to troll the latter.

    Emboar stays B. I swear we only made this change like a weak ago but its friggin strong with terrific coverage, both in and out of Sun. Band is brutally powerful and Scarf is a terrrific mon to break through offensive teams.

    Medicham should stay C. As much as I love it, the prevalence of Cresselia, Spiritomb, Uxie, and fast attackers on teams without those three makes it difficult to be particularly effective.

    SLowking stays in A. I know Aurist thinks its amazing and its still a great Pokemon but not S tier in this meta. Its been dropping in relevance as the tier shifted towards offense when both Nidoqueen and Moltres were to 2HKO it and in a mroe hard hitting metagame its lost some of its niche, especially with Uxie and Cress as the go to bulky psychic types. Still a great mon, but not S tier.

    I wouldn't even consider Aggron to move up until someone posts arguments for it, I can't see what's made it so much better of late between the surge of Cress and Poliqrath, and it was underwhelming when I used it.

    Cinccino for infinite tier because fuck King's Rock. Like hooooly shit.

    No comment on the other proposed changes.
  19. Molk

    Molk idk
    is a Tutoris a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnus
    RU Leader

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,988

    I would be fine with removing pineco and metang, but i personally think liepard deserves the rank that it has atm. Its really not a joke mon tbh, Liepard can set weather with prankster for an offensive rain or sun team, especially because it gets u-turn now, nasty plot+encore is also pretty nice when you use it correctly, liepard is frail but it can encore support moves/resisted attacks to get up a nasty plot, from there liepard has enough speed and power to sweep an offensive team. Liepard also has an annoying as fuck, yet slightly luck based Swagger/twave/foul play/sub set. This set is based on forcing switches and inflicting parafusion, you only really need swagger, but twave is cool for non sweeping stuff too. Once the opponent is at +2 you can use the opponents boosts to boost the power of your own foul play and do major damage to them.

    TL;DR, ill remove metang and pineco, but i feel liepard has enough of a relevant niche to have a rank.
  20. Aurist

    Aurist

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2012
    Messages:
    19
    Hi New Breed ^^

    I'll retract my words about Tauros, I was rash saying it is horrible/outclassed.

    I remain firm that Kabutops isn't an S-class pokemon, and that Slowking despite becoming less effective with each new change is still an S-class pokemon, it's still a meta-defining glue pokemon imo.

    I also agree with a lot that Koko said, "Drapion, Absol, Cryogonal, Lanturn, Poliwrath, or Magmortar" i honestly think that Drapion and Lanturn are A-class for the strong roles they have in the tier, the rest have a number of flaws that imo make them B-class.

    I don't agree with Cinccino going to A. It's an annoyance when it flinches your shit to death but that's not reliable nor usually that effective.

    Crustle deserves a B rank imo, it and Smeargle are the best things that can dual hazard in the tier and Crustle has other uses too.

    Emboar down. Like I argued in irc there's no real reason to use it over Entei unless your team is cripplingly weak to stealth rock already.

    Medicham and Hitmonlee up. Especially Hitmonlee, who is a great ace in the hole against offensive teams.
  21. Molk

    Molk idk
    is a Tutoris a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnus
    RU Leader

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,988
    Just posting to say that i have decided to move cryogonal to B rank for the time being, its a decent pokemon and one of the two good spinners in RU, but it does have some very crippling flaws that are keeping it from A rank imo. For one thing, Cryogonal is an ice-type, which speaks for itself. Ice is easily the worst single defensive type in the game, and because most people use cryogonal as a defensive spinner, this is a big problem. Cryogonal lacks any resistances other than ice and ground, and has a shitload of weaknesses. To make matters worse, cryogonal's physical bulk is severely lacking, and cryogonal often finds itself pursuit trapped or in a bad situation where if it spins, it basically sacrifices itself. Cryogonal is also often limited to one coverage move, its own STAB ice beam, multiple top Ru threats such as kabutops, entei, slowking, and escavalier resist ice, and can all find ways to seriously hurt the snowflake, with escavalier even pursuit trapping it! Obviously cryogonal is still a really good spinner, but its these key flaws that made me move it down, thoughts?
  22. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest all hail Greninja
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,263
    Lol, why move down Archeops? It's quite the offensive powerhouse tbh. And Crustle is, alongside Smeargle, one of the best users of Spikes+Stealth Rocks.

    As for Primeape, yeah, it should be C-Rank. It's not all that good anymore. Really, it's almost NU material.

    Slowking has to stay in A-Rank. I've used this at least 100 times in my past as an RU player, and Slowking is great, but it is not great enough to be S. The July dropdowns of Esca and Nidoqueen as well as Moltres getting Hurricane hurt Slowking's viability. Slowking is still a viable TR candidiate, and as well as a special wall (I love using TanKing) and such, but still A-Rank.

    Yes, move up Typhlosion. Specs set Eruption is awesome. It can bring the pain to the majority of the tier. I agree with it in B.

    Aggron and Cinccino are good in A. Aggron's Head Smashes hurt like hell. And decent defensive typing. Cinccino is really good, and it smashes Subs and packs a lot of firepower.

    Scolipede definitely deserves B. It's a really good Spikes/T-Spikes user, and the SD set wrecks shit like no tomorrow. Megahorn, EQ, and Rock Slide and easily clean teams with ease. Definitely a B-Rank Pokemon (Why must it be so lowly used?)

    I'm iffy on Medicham and Hitmonlee. Also, for Emboar, that's debatable. I still think it's amazing for its ability to OHKO almost the entire tier.

    Not sure about Exeggutor...

    Also, for Cryo....I really like it as a spinner, but yeah, Ice typing and Base 30 Defense are a real letdown defensively. Nonetheless, fantastic special wall and spinner, even Offensive Cryo is good.
  23. Swamp-Rocket

    Swamp-Rocket screw economics!
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,297
    Just saying that Slowking can easily take advantage of Esca and Nidoqueen. Fire Blast has easily one-shotted a bunch of Escavalier, which are even slower than Slowking for some reason, and this is coming off of a Slowking that had absolutely no investment in its Special Attack. Its hardly gimmicky either, being able to catch a bunch of Grass-types on the switch, like Tangrowth and Sceptile, and really hurt them. Nidoqueen has a hard time against Slowking thanks to recovery and regenerator allowing to switch in, and then Slowking can beat it up pretty bad with Scald or the occasional Specs.

    Slowking is one of the easiest to use yet versatile Pokemon in RU, and I've probably used this guy more than any other RU Pokemon due to how reliable it is. It should definetly be an S-Ranked Pokemon.
  24. Silvershadow234

    Silvershadow234 :]]]]]
    is a Pre-Contributor
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2012
    Messages:
    696
    I don't see why Slowking should be S honestly. ATM, cress outclasses Slowking in terms of a pivot for offensive teams and definitely outclasses Slowking when it comes to beating special attackers. Slowking is still very good yes, it is very versatile and is really quite powerful, but it has much more difficulty switching in on the special attackers that it should be walling-sceptile, nidoqueen, moltres etc.

    Poliwrath should definitely stay A rank. Poliwrath is one of the best, if not the best physical walls in the tier right now. It beats all of the standard Cresselia counters, such as escavalier and drapion with ease, as well as Entei, Kabutops, feraligatr etc. Although it does not have reliable recovery, RestTalk is still pretty good, as you recover all of your health when you use Rest, and Sleep Talk means that you won't ever be complete set-up fodder-especially when you have Circle Throw to phaze out stat boosts.

    I completely agree with Cryogonal in B. Cryo really is not what it used to be, since all the new cresselia counter, like CB Drapion, CB Escavalier etc easily deal with Cryogonal as well. The fact that it can only spin on rotom 100% of the time is also a bit of a let-down. That typing means it can't come in on all that much, and with that hideous defence stat Cryo will often have to sack itself to pull of a spin, which other spinners such as Kabutops don't have to do.

    I'd also like to propose Moltres to A rank. I know that it is one of the most dangerous mons in the tier, but it just got a new hard-counter in Cresselia-which means that Moltres won't be smashing through teams left and right. Moltres is also incredibly unreliable. Hurricane has a very good chance of missing, and two hits in a row has only a 50% chance of happening. Moltres also needs quite a lot of support, mainly RS support. If Moltres doesn't have spin support then it will be losing a huge chunk of it's health every switch in. It's this huge level of support that makes me think Moltres should be A.

    I'd also like to see Ferroseed moved up to B. The amount of support that Ferroseed provides surely cements it as a B rank poke. Thunder Wave, Spikes, Stealth Rock, Leech Seed-these are just a few things that Ferroseed can do to support its team. Thanks to its typing, it can set-up spikes / sr on a lot of different pokes, like Lanturn and Rotom-C, and also use Thunder Wave to cripple things that think they can come in on Ferroseed for free(high Moltres). Ferroseed is also not nearly as weak as some of you guys think. It 1HKO's things like Aerodactyl with Gyro Ball, and 2HKO's Sceptile. Thanks to Iron Barbs and Leech Seed, ferroseed is often able to just drain your health away through residual damage, like against LO Kabutops or Cincinno and Zangoose, who is taking Iron Barbs damage and either LO recoil or Toxic Orb recoil. Unless the opponent enjoys being paralyzed, i.e. Trick Room teams, then Ferroseed is quite hard to switch into, and with the residual damage even harder to set-up on, and even if they do they will only be left with a little bit of health. Thanks to its typing it is also an excellent counter to rain teams, and can easily start firing off TWave's left and right.
  25. complete legitimacy

    complete legitimacy one for the future
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,041
    As part of our IRC discussion last night, there are a couple of things that I think should happen. I think that Slowking should move up to S-rank, and that Omastar should move down to C-rank.

    Slowking is still an amazing pivot in this metagame, and while it does face some competition from Cresselia, it has a far better offensive movepool and is much more versatile. It's still the ultimate glue Pokemon, and can still fit on literally any team. It also boasts the ability to counter Entei, which Cresselia lacks (even if you run max Defense Cresselia, you get Pressure-stalled out of Moonlight PP really easily). It still has awesome resistances to check some of the tier's top threats, and the only thing that can safely switch into all of its sets is Munchlax, which sucks. I support Slowking for S-rank.

    Omastar just really isn't that good in the metagame anymore. It finds it extremely difficult to set up, and even if it does set up, it can easily be stopped by both offensive and defensive teams by Choice Scarf users and walls, respectively. Who would've thought that Omastar would've fallen this far, but it's just really not that good anymore. I'd like to nominate Omastar for C-rank, and I already have support from users Double01 and Swamp-Rocket.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)