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Discussion in 'BW RU' started by Molk, Oct 5, 2012.
Moltres? In A Rank? Get out of here.
It's probably a glitch with PS atm but, pressure only affects attacking moves.
The current implementation of Pressure on PS is correct; Pressure only affects moves that target the Pokemon with Pressure. Healing moves are self-targeting and therefore are not affected by Pressure.
I've never had any experience with Fraxure nor have I seen any in RU but I just want to comment that Fraxure is B-Ranked in viability in NU, where there are even less Steel-types (and the two main ones get destroyed by Low Kick) and there is no Druddigon to be more powerful than it. This is a problem since Fraxure is an A-Ranked on here, where the two things Fraxure has an easy time with in NU exists in RU. What makes it better in RU than in NU? I don't see anything atm and I'm thinking Fraxure for B-Rank.
Having used Fraxure quite a lot, Fraxure is definitely an A rank mon. After a single Dragon Dance, which Fraxure can easily get to thanks to Taunt and Eviolite, Fraxure outspeeds Sceptile iirc. Thanks to Mold Breaker, it also ignores Quagsire's ability which is a huge plus when going against defensive teams. At +1, Outrage is incredibly powerful, 2HKO'ing defensive monsters such as Poliwrath with ease. Thanks to Taunt, Fraxure can also set-up on things like Tangrowth. Low Kick allows it to hit all steel types bar Ferroseed for huge damage, and can actually 2HKO Steelix after Stealth Rock and a layer of Spikes.
Also, Druddigon is barely more powerful than Fraxure-and 117 Att is not weak at all. Fraxure and Druddigon play extremely differently, as Druddigon is a bulky Stealth Rocker or bulky sheer force attacker or special tank, while Fraxure is a full-out sweeper.
I have to agree with this. Fraxure is immensely powerful and DD makes it an incredible sweeper. Outrage is stupidly powerful, while Low Kick/Superpower rounds out the coverage, hitting even Steelix for serious damage. I've used it before and it is a very dangerous Pokemon. It's like the Haxorus of RU. A-Rank for sure.
I honestly have to agree with moving Fraxure to B-Rank. An A rank sweeper should be able to easily set up and threaten a large portion of the metagame. While Fraxure is quite powerful after a single boost, I don't believe that should be the reason it is in A rank. Pokemon like Omastar and Crawdaunt are just as deadly, if not more, after a turn of boosting. Another thing I'd like to point out is that Fraxure struggles to set up most of the time. Without Eviolite, it is ridiculously frail, for example it can be cleanly OHKOed by Absol's LO sucker Punch after Stealth Rock. Entei's Extremespeed does a lot and Fraxure is easily outsped by every Choice Scarf holder in the tier. With Eviolite, Fraxure just lacks power, for example, it cannot OHKO Entei at +1 with Eviolite. Also, while its good to say that Fraxure can hit Steel-types with Low Kick / Superpower, its quite easy to force the Outrage and then just switch into a Steel-type such as Steelix, the immensely popular Escavalier etc
While I'm not saying Fraxure is bad, it requires significant support to sweep and adds little defensive utility to a team. Fraxure should not be ranked among RU powerhouses such as Gallade and Durant.
Im just going to mention something here, while Fraxure might not have enough speed to beat out the Choice Scarf Pokemon at +1, its Dragon-type really comes in handy here. The vast majority of common and actually good Choice Scarf mons in RU are either Electric-types, or (lol) Fire-types, while the ones that arent usually struggle to OHKO a full hp Fraxure/suck really badly (lol primeape). In fact, the only two Choice Scarf Pokemon that outspeed Fraxure at +1 and pose a significant threat are Ditto and Medicham iirc. Even Medicham struggles to OHKO a full health fraxure with Hi Jump Kick, while Ditto isnt very common, so fraxure doesnt have to worry about Choice Scarf mons nearly as much as say uhh...... Crawdaunt. Fraxure also outruns the vast majority of the unboosted tier at +1, beating out swellow by one point, which is p. cool. I personally think that this is one of the main reasons that Fraxure deserves to be A rank, but ill move it down if need be when there is enough support.
EDIT: I have also moved Misdreavus back up to B rank because i made a team with her a few days yesterday and i have been constantly kicking myself for moving her down ever since, seriously, the ghost is cool :o.
Double posting because i made a few changes to the ranks, mainly in the B and C ranks, these are mostly based off of my playing experience and personal opinions, so feel free to oppose them. Here is a brief summary of the changes that i have made for reference
I have moved Spiritomb up from B rank to A rank
I have moved Typhlosion and Crustle up from C rank to B rank
I have moved Kangaskhan, Roselia, Clefable, and Samurott down from B rank to C rank
I have moved the mighty as fuck evire down from C rank to D rank
I added Volbeat to untested rank :3
I might also make some other changes regarding tangrowth and amoonguss soon, jsyk.
Anyways, all of the other proposed changes are still up for discussion, and i would really like to get an opinion on quite a few of them, tbh (things like slowking, aerodactyl, and ferroseed for example).
Poor Kanga ;-; Ah well, I guess if we're getting stricter with the tiering, it's sorta on the fence for me too, depending on your viewpoint.
Anywho, I guess I'm here to talk about Drifblim. Having taken a decent amount of time to test it, I can say that Drifblim is an interesting case. It's Unburden set, despite it's single-move coverage, is more than capable of cleaning up late-game once the opponent's Steel-, Rock-, and Elecrtic-types have been worn down. This is fairly achieved, since the majority of such checks remain very much hazard-weak, as well as suspetible to burns, which Driflbim can spread quite well early-game by merit of his moderate bulk and unique typing. It can even double as an emergency spin-blocker to protect the hazards it appreciates (though it's risking a speed tie to DBond Kabutops, making that somewhat ill-advised). Generally, Drifblim can serve as a very usable utility 'mon and late-game cleaner. Of course, while that's all well and good on paper, in practice it is a bit more difficult to achieve. An SR weakness, backed by Pursuit issues, leave Drifblim much less leniency in coming in and out, and his initial power is rather underwhelming, meaning that he won't be cleaning up until the opposing team is notably whittled down. Basically, Drifblim is definitely "effective" in the current metagame, but needs some dedicated team support to play properly, befitting C rank.
Move Hitmonchan from D Rank to C Rank. It is not outclassed by Hitmonlee in Foresight Rapid Spinning; Hitmonchan has much higher physical defense, whereas Hitmonlee is more offensive.
Hitmonchan's physical bulk is actually pretty bad even with investment. 50/76 with almost no resistances to write home about it pretty dang crippling, and it will always get screwed over by any of the Ghost-types in the tier since they all carry Will-o-Wisp. If every Pokemon was 252/252+, a Hitmonchan with that spread would take physical hits comparable to physcally frail Pokemon like Sceptile and Gallade. Its a horrible spinner and if you want to use Hitmonchan it should probably be offensive to distinguish itself, which makes it outclassed by Hitmonlee despite the minor increase in bulk (they have the same special bulk too). The only physical move you resist that is common is Stone Edge, which is usually a coverage move. If Hitmonchan's rank was based on spinning alone I wouldn't hesitate to say it would be E-Ranked.
Volbeat deserves to be in C tier, which is the same as Whimsicott.
Prankster Volbeat has garnered his(?) fame thanks to priority Rain Dance or Sunny Day, but Sunny Day is generally performed better by Whimsicott. Basically, Volbeat is the 'Politoad' of RU, in that he can set up rain 80% of the time. Additionally, the ability to pass Tail Glow, and Substitutes can make some special sweepers really fearsome. Encore is the icing on the cake to stop setup sweepers in their tracks.
The downside is that Volbeat is Stealth Rock weak, so it won't be able to switch in too many times, also it isn't the bulkiest Pokemon either, but its bulk still serves its purpose. Also, Volbeat is utterly destroyed by Taunt, but it will usually pass away before that can happen!
Volbeat for C tier.
I agree with this.
The positive traits that Crustle brings is notably Spikes and secondly Stealth Rock. Good hazard setters a hard to find and Crustle is a good one, thanks to its massive base Defense and alright HP. Additionally, two weaknesses means that Crustle has an easier time switching in and setting up more hazards, albeit those weaknesses are a bit common.
Now those flaws, Crustle's weakness are definitely up there, as Water- and Rock-type attacks mean that Crustle will often have to switch out. Also, a paltry 75 Special Defense and 45 Speed isn't winning Crustle any favors either. Since Crustle is mainly a hazard setter, a spinblocker is implied, unless its a fast paced team, but then why not use like Accelgor? A typical Ghost-type would be Spritomb and Rotom, which are both in A rank, so having them isn't a bad thing, so that support isn't too much of a hassle. The biggest is probably the Speed and general weak Special Defense, but that's why there are partners!
Crustle for B rank!
I don't think C rank does justice to our little rose-thing.
Roselia is a specially defensive behemoth that can also lay down Spikes, which makes it even more flavorful!
The perks to Roselia is quite long in that she can tank hits from a lot of Pokemon in ranks above her. Non-SD Sceptile, Lanturn, Lilligant, Poliwrath, Rotom(s), Tangrowth, and those are only Pokemon that Roselia can easily handle. Roselia can also lay down Spikes to punish the opponent further. If needed she can take statuses in a pinch thanks to Natural Cure, and can constantly heal with either Rest or Synthesis so she ain't going away. The perks that Roselia brings is that she can tank a host of special attacks, set up Spikes, and can be around a while.
Roselia shouldn't be any further than B rank, though. Fire-types are everywhere, Entei and Moltres, and their STAB will run right through Roselia. Also, a puny base 45 Defense doesn't do her any favors in taking physical attacks (kinda like Cryogonal), so Escavalier and Durant can run her over.
Another downside is that Roselia should be paired with a spinblocker, probably Spritomb or Rotom, but because they are both excellent Pokemon that isn't too big of a deal, although that could place a restraint on teambuilding.
Roselia for B rank!
I agree with this, ill move Volbeat up ASAP. I will admit that i have been the victim of volbeat in the past (damn you slory and your rain team). Volbeat holds the niche of rain dance (whimsicott doesnt learn it, lol) and Tail Glow pass over the other prominent weather setter, Whimiscott. Ive also heard Jabbathegriffin talk about how volbeat doesnt even need to be on a rain team to function effectively, doing any offensive team a service as an emergency stop to set up sweepers as well as tail glow passing. I have also taken your proposals for Roselia and Crustle into consideration, and i would opinions from all of you on where they should be :).
EDIT: while moving volbeat to C rank, i decided to move drifblim to C rank and Charizard to D rank because of arguments that have been made for and against them both in this thread and on irc, i might also be making some other moves soon (Tangrowth to B rank). Also, despite the fluctuating ladder, im not going to change the ranks based on the second metagame until we have an official verdict on queen and cress. Thank you for listening =).
This is from the OP. You may want to fix that.
I would like to nominate Scyther for B-Rank. Yes, it has an awful defensive typing and such, but it is also very destructive. After a single SD boost, it can tear down entire teams with ease. Technician gives it decently strong STABs, not to mention Eviolite can give it some bulk to set up. Maybe give it one spinner or so, but nonetheless, I'd say Scyther is B-Rank material.
Should we put Electivire in E-Rank? It's seriously garbage; it cannot KO anything, not to mention from my experience Munchlax is more useful than it. I feel it should be E-Rank.
Scyther is not worthy to consider it B rank, to be honest. Scyther needs a lot of support to work well. Scyther's main flaw is his huge weakness to Stealth Rock; this means that Scyther, literally, cant work without Rapid Spin support. Yeah, I know that there other Pokemon that have the same weakness as Scyther, like Moltres, for example. I take a look, because there are huge difference between both: Firstly, Moltres has the ability to fear a half metagame by itself; Scyther cant do this, there a lot of Pokemon that can easily check Scyther without high risk, like Steelix for example; and secondly, Moltres can use Roost with succesfully; if Scyther use Roost, put it in huge disadvantage, since it will lack a really important coverage move, and this essentially affect in his sweep capability. Swords Dance is probably Scyther's best set, but even with that Scyther needs plenty of support to work effectively. Even with +2, Scyther is not difficult to check, there a lot of Pokemon that can outspeed it and OHKO back like Sceptile, Durant, Swellow, Choice Scarf Rotom or Tauros for name few. Still there are a lot of defensive Pokemon that can succesfully check it such as Steelix, Rhydon or Misdreavus, and those can hit really hard back or cripple it with status. Furthemore, Scyther has issue with item, if it use Eviolite it can get multiple Swords Dance much more easier, but Scyther becomes to be really weak to status, and Pokemon that lures Scyther like Uxie or Cresselia, both can predict his switch and easily cripple it with Thunder Wave; if Scyther use other item like Lum Berry, it becomes less weak to status and can set-up easier on Cresselia and others, but it lacks the great bulk that Eviolite provides. Finally, its type combination is not great, simply, because Pokemon that Scyther could set up easily, like Grass-types, most of them have a coverage move that hits Scyther supereffective, and make much more difficult find a moment to set up with Scyther.
Overall, Scyther is fine on C Rank, it needs plenty of support to work effectively.
oh shit, didnt even notice that, fixed!
EDIT: i moved Fraxure to B rank and Slowking to S rank for the sole reason of sparking some discussion, i also added Mothim to untested!
EDIT2: Just added Eelektross to untested!
Electivire honestly isn't that bad. Munchlax can literally do nothing, but Electivire can actually rack up quite a bit of damage on offensive teams. Cresselia is impossible to get past, Electivire can deal with a suprising amount of Pokemon in the tier with some hazards up. Assuming a Life Orb, after Stealth Rock Damage it OHKOs Tangrowth AND Slowking with Flamethrower and Wild Charge, respectively, after Spikes it OHKOs Nidoqueen with Earthquake, and after both it OHKOs Steelix with Flamethrower. Offensive Pokemon also get wrecked if Electivire can get a boost off - heck, it can even use Vital Spirit to be the team's sleep absorber, which is almost required in this metagame.
Once the opposing team is weakened, there is little that can stop Electivire, as with some entry hazards support it can really wreck the opposing team. Getting to this time is very difficult, and if the team can't get past very bulky Pokemon such as Cresselia or Uxie, it ends up becoming dead weight. It requires a lot of support, but it is definently not worthy of being E-Ranked because it can actually do something.
EDIT: Already have given my thoughts about Fraxure and Slowking
smh at Fraxure in B-smfh...
Fraxure is a really great mon at the moment, and there is no way it deserves to be in B rank. With eviolite and taunt, fraxure is actually pretty easy to set-up, for example against stuff such as Cresselia. From there you can start boosting up with Dragon Dance. At +1 and with 117 base attack, you are hitting incredibly hard, and you are 2HKO ing the majority of common physical walls, and those that you aren't like tangrowth can't do anything back to you. Even though it has rubbish defensive stats, eviolite and a dragon typing allows you to survive quite a few hits, and allows you to set-up on many common pokes like Sceptile and Rotom-C. Sure, you're not nearly as bulky as Druddigon, but you can set-up on quite a few things. You can even set-up on CB Entei locked into Flare Blitz, among other things
Of course, when it gets to +1, you would think that it would be easy to revenge kill. No. Common revenge killers, such as Galvantula and mighty scarf typhlosion really struggle with fraxure since they can't 1HKO him with any move, while sceptile, a common answer to powerful sweepers for offensive teams is out sped and destroyed by the outrage. There really aren't many choice scarf users that can actually beat Fraxure-Medicham is the only one that comes to mind, and medicham is pretty terrible in this metagame thanks to cresselia being everywhere. It also survives a multitude of priority moves from some of the strongest attackers in the tier-both entei and absol fail to 1HKO with ExtremeSpeed and Sucker Punch respectively. The only real downside I have with Fraxure is the fact that it has to be forced out after it's outrage finishes-but that's not that big of an issue really.
So, fraxure can set-up on lots of mons on both defensive and offensive teams alike, hits incredibly hard, is difficult to stop, has a great typing, and relatively decent bulk. How is that not A rank?
Bumping this just to say that i have recently added Piloswine to untested rank. Despite almost never being used before, its starting to slowly move into the spotlight, and people such as Double01 that have used it before think it should be given a rank here, looking at all of its positive qualities such as immense bulk, Stealth rock, good offensive typing, and even priority, i think its worthy of C rank or maybe even B rank! what do you guys think?
I'd have to test Piloswine a bit myself before I give a final answer, but it's looking like a C rank at best. It's lack of recovery is a huge flaw, but then again, not a lot of mons have good recovery options in RU.
Anyways, while skimming over the ranks, I noticed that Skuntank has not been tested. I've been running Skuntank to eliminate ghosts (to allow spins) and psychics, to aid the late game Gallade sweep. Skuntank has a lot that sets it apart from Drapion. After you look at it, it's easy to see that Skuntank is even better than Drapion most of the time. I'll say it right now, Skunk doesn't get SD or Toxic Spikes, both of which makes Drapion a very versatile pokemon. However, Skuntank doesn't play a sweeper or set up role, so it doesn't need SD. Access to Sucker Punch is something Drapion could only dream of. This STAB priority coming from Skunk's respectable 93 base attack has massive damage output. Fire Blast is also something Skunk boasts, torching Excav, Steelix, Tangrowth, and Klang.
Another pro-Drapion argument compares the scorpion's 500 total base stat to Skunk's 479. Although Drapion may be faster and bulkier, Skunk's 103 base HP allows it to take specially oriented hits just as well as Drapion, who only sports 70 base HP. Skunk's lack of speed is also easily patched up by it's powerful STAB priority. Now, luck has run out for the scorpion. Although it has well distributed stats, aswell as a somewhat extensive movepool, it has no useful abilities. Skuntank, however, sports Aftermath, an excellent ability that allows Skunk to deal a large chuck of damage, even when it is death fodder.
Taunt, Pursuit, Sucker Punch, and Crunch is Skunk's niche set. As previously stated, it does an excellent job at shutting down and eliminating the tier's common ghost and physic types, even the nearly BL2 Cresselia. Skuntank removing these pokemon makes it easy to abuse powerful fighting type moves like Medicham's Hi Jump Kick, and Gallade's Close Combat. Skuntank's ability to remove ghosts/psychics in the tier is unparalleled, and earns it atleast a B Rank, if not higher.
Klinklang @ Leftovers
Trait: Clear Body
EVs: 156 Spd / 252 Atk / 100 HP
- Shift Gear
- Gear Grind
- Wild Charge/Return
K i'm going to nominate Klinklang move up to B rank. From my experiences klinklang is a really solid mon. Klinklang excels against offensive teams cause of its great boosting move shift gear, which raises 2 speed at 1 attack. After even just 1 shift gear many offensive teams are going to have trouble taking a hit from it and revenging it. And klinklang is very difficult to revenge because it takes little damage from espeed, a jet, and sucker punch, 3 of the most common priority moves. And since it can invest in bulk too it can set up on so many walls mainly the ever so common cresselia that lack hp fire.
Klinklang does has its flaws and requires some team support. Things like Emboar and steelix are pretty good counters to klinklang. While if it runs wild charge then lanturn is another counter to klinklang. But lanturn must watch out for return because return will be an easy 2hko at +1. Also pokes with mach punch can revenge klinklang.
I used subcm uxie along with klinklang to make a deadly sweeping duo. As hardly anything to beat this duo besides steelix, (im not running giga drain) and steelix is handled by the rest of my team and has no recovery. Subcm uxie is also great for luring things klinklang can set up on such as Spiritomb. Another positive about this sweeping duo as they BOTH can beat cresselia and since cress is such a big part in this meta having 2 sweepers being able to beat her is very nice. Klinklang definitely is underated and deserves at least a B Rank
Edit: Also about Piloswine I run the 252 hp 252 atk eviolite set and its really fucking good. It can beat all three main rapid spinners. (Cryo with SE, Sandslash with Icicle spear, Kabu with EQ) Though i choose to run the moveset of SR / icicle spear / Ice shard / eq. Ice shard is really useful for dealing with grass pokes like sceptile and lilligant. And ice shard does like 60% to both of them so u just need to weaken them a little.
Piloswines bulk is crazy good. I run 252 / 252 atk and that set takes a maximum of 70% from CB flare blitz entei. And if you decide to run max def it can avoid the 2hko from entei. Piloswine prollly does deserve C rank but i can definitely see an argument for it being B rank
Nice posts guys =). Ill be sure to keep skuntank in mind, it actually seems like quite an interesting Pokemon! One thing you forgot to mention is that Skuntank can use Explosion because lol exploding Skunk (and to deal a shitload of damage as you go down). Ill be sure to test Skuntank out a bit, and for now im going to add it to untested rank for you =).
Ive been using Klinklang for the past two days and hes been slightly hit or miss for me (quite literally, fucking gear grind). But when it gets going, its really hard to stop. Klinklang's good Steel-typing helps it set up on quite a bit of the tier, often Pokemon that several other sweepers on my team had trouble with. As you mentioned, Klinklang's shitty coverage does get in the way sometimes, but it really doesnt hinder Klinklang as much as i initially thought, as the gears only miss out on certain Pokemon such as Steelix coveragewise, and can set up on quite a few of the Pokemon that are supposed to wall it (ferroseed....). Late game when most of the opponents Pokemon are weakened even slightly, and when hard counters are probably eliminated, Klinklang becomes very threatening, being able to set up a Shift Gear quite easily and just cleave through the rest of the tired, weakened team. So yeah, im moving Klinklang to B rank unless theres any opposition within the next two hours, feel free to post any opinion you have about gear!
EDIT: Klinklang is now officially B rank! feel free to keep discussing it though
I didn't mention Explosion, because that is what Aftermath does: deal damage at the cost of Skantank's life. Aftermath is even better for bulky steels and rocks, because Explosion would do less damage to them. Explosion mechanics this gen simply make it a waste of a moveslot the majority of the time. However, I agree that it could possibly come in handy from time to time. EDIT: Forgot to say that I actually did mention Explosion in the rp thread last night :S
I was actually messing around with Klinklang yesterday, funny you bring it up. I honestly do not agree with moving it up a tier. Klang has a notable niche in the form of Shift Gear sweeper. Its ability to outpace the majority of the tier at +2, while still gaining a +1 atk boost in one turn of set up is what it does. Its steel typing gives it tons of set up opportunities, it has a fantastic base 100 attack, which reaches 492 after one boost. Klinklang also has a passable ability in Clear Body, which promises that Intimidate isn't going to cut your sweep short. However, even with all these great sweeper qualities, Klinklang simply does not have the move pool to back it up. Klinklang requires significant support to be effective in RU. It simply cannot muscle through things like Steelix, Escavalier, Tangrowth, Aggron, MAGNETON, Unaware Quagsire, Rotom-N, Sandslash, and Ferroseed. If it's packing HP Fire over Wild Charge, then common things Kapu, Omystar, Moltres, and Poliwrath wall it, and retaliate with their Water, Fire, Fighting STABs respectively. If it had access to moves like Superpower, Earthquake, and Stone Edge, i would whole-heartedly agree with a B Rank..
However, because of how many counters it has due to it's limited movepool, I believe it fits the C Rank definition better.