Project The Top 10 Titans of the 6th Gen OU Metagame

Hoopa-U
I've been voting for Lando, but I personally feel that Hoopa-U deserves the #4 spot more than Goth does. Hoopa had such a significant impact that the meta still is offensively based. Goth's influence stopped after shadow tag was banned. Pretty big differences in impact, don't you think? Hoopa pretty much destroyed most slow, traditional mega sableye stall teams and led to the creation of more semi-stall teams (such as ABR). And those semi-stall teams have proven to be more successful than traditional stall to this day. Hoopa also had a variety of different sets and pretty much forced any successful team to have pursuit trapping or volt-turn support or some really fast scarfer like jirachi. Some people were using mega beedrill just to outspeed this thing! Once again, Hoopa-U destoryed traditional stall teams, popularized volt-turn teams and pursuit trappers, and created a more offensive meta that lasts to this day.
 

MANNAT

Follow me on twitch!
is a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
for those voting hoopa u, also consider how short a time it was in the metagame from its release, you most certainly have to take that into account when considering your decision, not to mention that Pursuit was already really good on stall before Hoopa came around
 
Lando-T

The sudden hype of Hoopa-U is somewhat absurd, not saying it was not a threat, but Lando-T has been in the meta much more time and is so adaptable to almost all the meta changes that is surprising, in fact this thing is what keeps the meta because of how good of a blanket check it is, without this thing some mons would remain free to run rampant in the meta, is the Titan that helps to deal with other Titans.

As much as useful Goth's Shadow Tag was I think she is being overhyped, like is not that she was incredible good, but is mainly that it was difficult to prepare for her because of how other things where much more relevant, this is indeed different from things like Aegi, Greninja, Char X, Lando-T,M-Scizor and so on who even if you know they are coming they still are a pain in the ass, not saying Goth was not when played well, but certainly not at that level, the statement of mons needing to run Shed Shell for her is not that big when Steels also tended to run it for Magnezone, heck Heatran runs Air Balloon sometimes for Lando-T and Char-X if we go that way, everything about her bar Shadow Tag sucked,crap defensive typing, bad offensive presence, in practice it was destroyed by good voltturn cores, the fact that it was weak af to U-turn, and that everyone was using Scarf Lando-T an spamming it doesnt help her, this thing can go nuts some games, but is not near as consistent as a lot of people is impliying.

So in the end if you were unprepared for her is stupid af, but that applies to a lof of the relevant mons, so is not that impressive.
 
Last edited:

Pyritie

TAMAGO
is an Artist
Gothitelle

lando-t is just a good blanket check to a ton of shit, but it doesn't really influence the meta that much
 
Hoopa-U: Lol, This thing is the definition of centralizing the metagame. Nothing was able to get in his face without taking a 1HKO Super Effective or a stupdly strong STAB coming from a ridiculous base 160 Atk / 170 SpA. When this thing was allowed, or you abused it, or your team needed to fully prepared to switch on its 4 moves, which was almost impossible as his vast movepool allowed Hoopa hit different portions of the metagame. When team building, this thing was the biggest headache ever, you needed to choose what moveset you needed to check, and only then start thinking about a competitively viable team.

Td;dr: This thing limited team building in a try hard way, just like greninja did.

About Landorus and Clefable, like zbr said, aren't metagame shapers, they are results of a shaped metagame, so i don't believe they should be in the top 5, perhaps the bottom of the list.
 

Martin

A monoid in the category of endofunctors
is a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
As much as useful Goth's Shadow Tag was I think she is being overhyped, like is not that she was incredible good, but is mainly that it was difficult to prepare for her because of how other things where much more relevant, this is indeed different from things like Aegi, Greninja, Char X, Lando-T,M-Scizor and so on who even if you know they are coming they still are a pain in the ass, not saying Goth was not when played well, but certainly not at that level, the statement of mons needing to run Shed Shell for her is not that big when Steels also tended to run it for Magnezone, heck Heatran runs Air Balloon sometimes for Lando-T and Char-X if we go that way, everything about her bar Shadow Tag sucked,crap defensive typing, bad offensive presence, in practice it was destroyed by good voltturn cores, the fact that it was weak af to U-turn, and that everyone was using Scarf Lando-T an spamming it doesnt help her, this thing can go nuts some games, but is not near as consistent as a lot of people is impliying.
Few things. Firstly, while I kinda understand the Steel-type comparison ish (it's not that good tbh 'cause these were for when they were important elements of defensive synergy), my key issue with it is that the stuff that ran Shed Shell for Gothitelle weren't Steel-types and weren't usually defensive. Like, the key thing here is that it removed key offensive threats to make stall extremely hard to take on short of packing multiple stallbreakers on one team. Secondly, noone in their right mind is trying to trap a U-turn user when you could be trapping shit like Manaphy, Togekiss, Heatran, Amoonguss, Chansey etc. that you actually win vs. The variant used in ABR stall ran 128 HP IIRC. I can't remember what it does exactly, but I do know that one thing it achieves is avoiding a Seismic Toss 3HKO. I also know that Gothitelle wasn't used for it's offensive presence, but rather it functioned by PP stalling it's targets or just crippling them with Trick which means that it's low SpA stat didn't matter that much in the long run (that and it was also able to score free CMs vs. stuff that it's PP stalling if it carried the move). Outside of playing like complete ass, Gothitelle will do it's job in a matchup where it is needed, and even just having the ability to revenge kill things similarly to Dugtrio (which, for reference, has a whopping 1-point attack increase over 128 SpA Gothitelle) meant that it was able to not be complete dead weight in matchups that it didn't need to PP stall or cripple stuff with Trick, and it had utility on offense for it's ability to create setup opportunities for teammates similarly to Wobbuffet's Encore too. It didn't need amazing stats when it has passable stats and as perfect a movepool as it had for it's job, and it isn't taking on half the crap that you are referring to as it's problems in the first place. Like, seriously this thing is consistent idk why you have it in your head that it "is not near as consistent as a lot of people are implying"
 
Few things. Firstly, while I kinda understand the Steel-type comparison ish (it's not that good tbh 'cause these were for when they were important elements of defensive synergy), my key issue with it is that the stuff that ran Shed Shell for Gothitelle weren't Steel-types and weren't usually defensive. Like, the key thing here is that it removed key offensive threats to m ake stall extremely hard to take on short of packing multiple stallbreakers on one team. Secondly, noone in their right mind is trying to trap a U-turn user when you could be trapping shit like Manaphy, Togekiss, Heatran, Amoonguss, Chansey etc. that you actually win vs. The variant used in ABR stall ran 128 HP IIRC. I can't remember what it does exactly, but I do know that one thing it achieves is avoiding a Seismic Toss 3HKO. I also know that Gothitelle wasn't used for it's offensive presence, but rather it functioned by PP stalling it's targets or just crippling them with Trick which means that it's low SpA stat didn't matter that much in the long run (that and it was also able to score free CMs vs. stuff that it's PP stalling if it carried the move). Outside of playing like complete ass, Gothitelle will do it's job in a matchup where it is needed, and even just having the ability to revenge kill things similarly to Dugtrio (which, for reference, has a whopping 1-point attack increase over 128 SpA Gothitelle) meant that it was able to not be complete dead weight in matchups that it didn't need to PP stall or cripple stuff with Trick, and it had utility on offense for it's ability to create setup opportunities for teammates similarly to Wobbuffet's Encore too. It didn't need amazing stats when it has passable stats and as perfect a movepool as it had for it's job, and it isn't taking on half the crap that you are referring to as it's problems in the first place. Like, seriously this thing is consistent idk why you have it in your head that it "is not near as consistent as a lot of people are implying"
Is because is the truth, that is why I have it in my head, first and foremost the Steel type Shed Shell comparison, or the Air Balloon one for that matter, is just too point that a mon running an item to have a better matchup against things that usually check it is not enough argument for something being ultra impressive, since it happens with other mons as well.

Uturn and Volturn matters because unless it is after a teammate is killed you cannot ensure your opponent is not switching too, and after one of your mons is already killed there are a good amount of times that your opponent's mon is already setted up and doesnt care about Gothitelle, a prominent case being CharX who was very popular the time Goth was allowed, which made Goth reliant on prediction on actual matches, this is especially true for Gothitelle who has a crappy defensive typing since it cannot come in freely all the time unlike something like Lando-T.

You are comparing Gothitelle to Wobuffet? They share the typing and ability, but they are worlds appart my friend, Wobuffet can come on a Xerneas using Geomancy and kill it, in short words the burden of needing to predict is muuuuuuch way less because this applies to almost any mon trying to set up , I want to see Goth when it was around switching into a CharX using Dragon Dance to see what it can do.

Gothitelle struggled against particular threats in OU much more than you realize or wants to admit, Latios doesnt care about Trick mostly, Lando-T, Gengar, CharX, Talonflame, Azumarill,etc. were incredible difficult for hear to deal with unless send out at the same time, since they could set up on the switch and kill, those ones are just asome at the top of my head I can think of.

There was a reason why this thing did not make it at the top of the viability rankings, sure when it gets going it does its job amazingly, but other mons where much more consistent at checking specific threats, others also served as blanket checks for a good portion of the meta alongside providing hazard control, hazard setting, offensive potential, defensive synergy, and so on.

Also not that it matters, but strictly speaking about offensive potential, Dugtrio is better than Gothitelle, not because of the 1 point increase in attack that you blatantly try to make fun of, but because it has a much better main offensive move(Earthquake in case you are wondering is better than Psychic), also it has 10 more BP, coupled with a much better offensive movepool.

So yeah, it can be extremely useful, and on a right prediction you reward is considerably higher than what other mons provide, ironically it also fitted well in Voltturn cores, but thing thing is not near the level of the top threats in terms of centralization and derpness.
 
Don't have a lot of time rn so I'll vote later but I just wanted to say that Gothitelle wasn't around for only ORAS. If you were around for XY, cores like GothiDos (Gothitelle + Mega Gyarados) existed because goth would trap all of gyara's checks and counters and beat them. You can probably think up many other such cores that worked the same way as that. That made team building very restrictive for other players knowing their checks could get trapped and killed and made it easy for the user knowing that their wincon would be able to sweep late game in many circumstances. Obviously not as potent as ORAS goth was but it is a factor.
 
Don't have a lot of time rn so I'll vote later but I just wanted to say that Gothitelle wasn't around for only ORAS. If you were around for XY, cores like GothiDos (Gothitelle + Mega Gyarados) existed because goth would trap all of gyara's checks and counters and beat them. You can probably think up many other such cores that worked the same way as that. That made team building very restrictive for other players knowing their checks could get trapped and killed and made it easy for the user knowing that their wincon would be able to sweep late game in many circumstances. Obviously not as potent as ORAS goth was but it is a factor.
I think my position regarding Goth is misinterpreted, I think she is a good mon, and has some good matchups regarding specific things, but I dont think she as at #4 place, IMO Lando-T is way ahead of her, even when Goth was allowed there where much more teams using Lando-T than those with her, because it has such a big role compression that very rarely you would want to use other mon over it(and even now), it just seems weird that a mon that has been holding literally OU basically the complete 6 gen is lower than her, Goth has a lot going for her, but it was never as centralizing as Lando-T.
 
Please keep in mind that this list is supposed to focus on Pokemon that have strongly influenced 6th Gen OU as a whole, not just a specific cross section of the metagame. In that regard, I think that Hoopa-U's influence is being vastly overstated. In the grand scheme of things, its impact really wasn't that large at all. It got a lot of hype when it was first released, and then it sort of fell out of the discussion for a while. I mean, it was always good and a strain on teambuilding, but it wasn't that dominant until people started realizing how good the Specs set was early this year. It rose to S-Rank in late March and was banned in mid April. That's not a huge amount of time to be a metagame-defining force.

I saw an argument earlier that Hoopa-U was so influential that the metagame remained strongly offensive even after its ban. However, I honesty think that this point, if true, actually hurts Hoopa-U's case more than it helps it. If it was truly the single greatest cause of an offensive shift, then it would stand to reason that the metagame would shift back to less offensive after it's ban, not remain more offensive. Compare this to Aegislash, who was in the metagame for a similarly short amount of time. When it was banned, you could immediately tell the difference. Bulky Psychics like Jirachi and Celebi started quickly gaining traction, and offensive beasts like Terrakion, Mega Heracross, and Mega Medicham became significantly better now that they no longer had to include Aegislash coverage in their movesets. Things changed pretty dramatically after Aegislash's ban. By contrast, if the state of the metagame didn't change much after Hoopa-U's ban, then can you confidently say that Hoopa-U caused those shifts? Or was there some other factor that helped cause and maintain them?
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.


#4) Gothitelle

Ya Gothitelle pretty much brought Stall from being a mediocre or even unviable archetype to become a predominant one when GothStall was allowed. It forced so many stallbreakers like Manaphy and Togekiss to start running Shed Shell just to that they do no end up being PP stalled by this monster. It wasen't that common in tournament play, but it defintely left an influence at that time especially when paired with Mega Sableye.
 
Talonflame

I would agree that Landorus-T has a greater impact on the metagame today, but Talonflame basically acts as the OU gatekeeper. Its strong priority bravebird (and many other uses) is essentially the "you must be this tall to ride OU" sign. Take at look at BL and UU. Half of the things there have the diversity and strength to be OU if not for Talonflame's ability to switch in and/or easily revenge. Not to mention the fact that anything that is Flying-weak has to have an incredible niche to be worth using. Try using a mega-Beedrill in OU. It is possibly the best offensive pivot in the game, but Talonflame and Lando-T alone make it very difficult to use.

No, it's not the strongest, nor most influential pokemon of OU, but Talonflame strictly defines the lower limit for participation in the OU metagame, to the point where its absence would cause the rise in use of many pokemon from the lower tiers, more so than any other current OU resident..
 
gothitelle

I will just say that any pokemon that forces the usage of such a item like Shed Shell to NOT get totally rekted deserves a high spot on this ranking. This thing made stall jump in Joy.
M-sab is annoying to play against. M-venu is a nightmare to take down. gothielle just traps u, cripples u with no option to retailate unless u run weird sets that otherwise would just be burning in the depths of hell. if thats NOT centralizing and meta-defining (meanwhile it was allowed, ofc) i dont know what it is.
 
I seriously wanna know why Gothitelle suddenly is being voted for 4. If anything, that vote would be better off going to Mega Sableye, as it's generally a more threatening Pokémon, has more uses besides stall, and didn't quite die as easily, while staying relevant even after a Shadow Tag ban and forcing people to either run a Fairy or Lum attacker just to deal with it.
 
Last edited:
Gothitelle

A pokemon whose "counterplay" involved "desperately double or you're trapped", Shed Shell or running a turning move is much more of a titan than Lando, who's great at compressing various roles but at the same time faces strain while so (gets worn down easily from rocks, attacks and opposing helmet users, is prepared for with Ice moves, has no recovery)
 

zbr

less than 99% acc = never hit
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Goth.

To be honest, trapping as a style should be 4th place, not just goth. It's just so happened that goth brought more to the table due to it's easily adjustable evs and bulk as well as movesets to cripple opposing teams which is why people decided that goth was the defining force instead. the real fact here is that the option to completely remove your opponent's crucial ability to switch out, which is one of pokemon's most fundamental aspect to it's plays, is extremely punishing in nature and it could be done for very little cost as the trapper. dedicated trappers like the mag families placed so much strain on steel types back when pinsir zone cores were everywhere and even now, instead of pinsir zone, we have diancie zone which still forces a lot of unoptimal plays from the steel user in fear of being trapped because you opted to use something that has more benefits like a custap berry or leftovers over shed shell.

shed shell is a very useless item. i cannot emphasize that enough. if you have to force your steel types or your stallbreakers to use something like that just to have an increased fighting chance to deal with stall / trappers then i think your opponent's trapper has alr done it's fair share of work in "weakening" your team even before the battle begins.

goth impacted the metagame (in particular stall) by providing teams with a way to almost unconditionally cripple or remove threats from their teams. this is particularly evident during early olt days when cleaner used his gothstall and as a result pursuit trappers used to deal with goth shot up in usage. it's impact on stall's method of teambuilding is seen even until today where those who build stall attempt to break apart opposing teams not by just slowly dwindling the opponent's resources but also by target removing certain threats in the game (screech duggy for opposing chans, heatran etc) which allows for the stall players to achieve their winning positions much more easily and allowing them to pressure the opposing team more just by sheer presence alone.
 
Last edited:

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top