1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

All Gens The Toxicroak Effect

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Scorpio, Feb 10, 2014.

  1. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2008
    Messages:
    1,142
    Forretress is a significant part of DP anyway, so it's not really a candidate.
  2. McMeghan

    McMeghan Dreamcatcher
    is a Tournament Directoris a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL Winneris the Smogon Tour Season 14 Champion
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2010
    Messages:
    1,937
    If anything, Forretress has always been OU and a force to be reckoned with in every generations since it's been introduced (XY doesn't count on this forum :toast:). In that way, it hardly fits a "niche" role.
  3. BaffleBlend

    BaffleBlend

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2014
    Messages:
    62
    Sharpedo ADV-DP

    It stayed in the same tier, but the Physical-Special split allowed it to take advantage of its superior Attack stat, which turned it from "specific niches and good luck only" to "effective UU sweeper".
  4. Durant

    Durant

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2013
    Messages:
    846
    Dugtrio from DPP to BW

    DPP:
    In DPP Dugtrio was mainly used to revenge kill big threads in UU like Blaziken, Toxicroak and Houndoom. However Dugtio's defenses were not existing, his attack was pretty mediocre and he didnĂ˝ have a big movepool either.

    BW:
    In BW Dugtrio pretty much gained nothing new worth noting outside of maybe Hone Claws. But what made Dugtrio OU was all the new and old threads Dugtrio was able to revenge kill. Dugtrio also functioned really well on sun teams as it was able to take out other weather setters.
    casectiv likes this.
  5. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2012
    Messages:
    701
    Well, no, it can't take out Politoed easily. Its value to sun teams is elsewhere. If you're strictly talking about taking out weather setters, it'd be best on rain teams.
  6. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2008
    Messages:
    1,142
    That's pretty much the case. Regardless of the new stuff he gets, his play-style hasn't changed a bit over the generations.

    To go back to RS to DPP for a second, there's nothing that truly fits the character. By tier placement, sure (some BLs and UUs are now OU), but in reality, they are at the bottom of the barrel of the tier and should probably be BL. You guys previously mentioned Tentacruel. While its typing does allow it to do a couple stalling maneuvers, it's never going without Toxic Spikes, the reason why it's used in the first place.

    By tier placement, the others are Ninjask, Smeargle, Umbreon and Vaporeon. I honestly don't think Vaporeon is that good anymore in DPP, but besides that, it does fit the bill when you look at it.

    Ninjask is the same Baton Passer and counterable by any good player. Smeargle (which is bad), gets new moves, but it doesn't push him over the edge really. He does hazards in both generations and Spores. Stealth Rock is better done by someone else, and U-Turn? Nah. And Umbreon is terrible, not news at all. It's the same Special wall with the same moves. But in DPP, it doesn't support efficiently and can't heal reliably.

    I think that's all of them.
  7. Zebstrika

    Zebstrika

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    918
    Dragonite got more usage in DPP because of Salamence's ban.

    Suicune is seeing more usage this gen. Its two weaknesses, electric and grass, were boosted by weather last generation. Rain teams spammed Thunder all over and Ferrothorn was pretty common on them too. Sun teams threw around Solar Beams and Grass type Chlorophyll users. Sleep mechanics were also temporarily nerfed in 5th gen but now Suicune can switch out while asleep and can pick up where it left off on its sleep turns.

    Chansey is now more popular than Blissey because sand (and lol hail) are not all over.

    Zapdos dropped to UU last gen because it got competition from Thundurus-T. Its main niches over it were better bulk, but its bulk was a little bit too lacking to wall many of the threats in BW2 spamming weather boosted attacks, and Heat Wave, which clashed with Thunder if you wanted to put Zapdos on your own weather team. And now in XY, without weather, and also the rise of some things it can wall like Pinsir, the old Mega Lucario, and Aegislash, its defenses mean something. Also, it can defog (or its teammates can defog to make its SR weakness matter less) and not fear Bisharp because of Heat Wave, which is a little unique.

    Ditto seems a bit more common this gen than last, and I can't totally explain why, since I feel like there were more threatening sweepers for Ditto to stop in BW2.

    Swagplay abusers are more common because of Klefki, and because I think the competitive pokemon community also became more dickish, how else do you explain Funbro's rise to power at around the same time?

    Technically, you can also say that all unbanned pokemon are unbanned because the metagame shifted to be able to handle them. The only examples (in OU specifically) where I can think of something unbanned because it was nerfed was Drizzle+Swift Swim and some indirect nerfs because of perma weather nerf, like Excadrill or Defog for Deoxys.
  8. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2012
    Messages:
    701
    What's "swagplay"?
  9. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    1,261
    Swagger + Foul Play, typically paired with Prankster. A controversial tactic (ultimately banned, if not at least suspected at this point) in XY OU.

    EDIT @ below: It gets prankster and access to the infamous swagger + foul play + twave + substitute set and, unlike most users of it, has a decent defensive typing. It's not particularly special outside of that. That's my impression of it anyway.
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2014
  10. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2012
    Messages:
    701
    How does Klefki make SwagPlay more common?

    EDIT: I see. His wording made it sound like Klefki made other abusers more common, which confused me.
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2014
  11. MoxieInfinite

    MoxieInfinite

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2013
    Messages:
    661
    Imposter lets it copy the Mega Pokemon WITHOUT needing a Mega Stone, so it's pretty much a Scarfed Mega.
  12. Bedschibaer

    Bedschibaer does it for free
    is a Forum Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2013
    Messages:
    500
    I actually have that impression too. Klefki is pretty mediocre, prankster spikes and prankster screens are nice and all, but with defog being very common you aren't achieving alot. Not to mention that Deoxys is still here and does that way more reliably. So swagplay is actually one of the best things Klefki can do. I guess because of this new abuser the idea of making whole swagplay teams passed on. Last gen only Liepard was a "common" swagplayer, because Thundurus and Sableye have way more offensive/support potential than that. I think it's just because swagplay has a new abuser and more and more people used it it became quite popular on the ladder.

    That's not really true. I know that because i kinda was one of those guys who used to run funbro on the ladder just to fuck with the lower ladder players. Infinite stalling was a thing before, there was a kinda popular Jirachi Hackmons set that did pretty much the same thing funbro did (spider web, heal pulse, recycle and recover with leppa berry i think, or maybe it had a trapping ability, i don't really remember), but that was around way before funbro was even a thing. Basically a couple of guys on a pokemon image board looked up how to do this endless stalling thing in OU, and after some time funbro became a thing. The only reason it became "popular" is because those guys used to pass it on on said image board. There were a couple of those gimmicks that passed on like that Assist Shadow force lagging tail Liepard team that was basically untouchable unless someone had a priority move, if you laddered alot in BW you might remember that. Only difference is that funbro became kinda a joke, and it got passed on alot more, even by popular youtubers. (sorry for the kinda unrelated essay, what i was trying to say is that the competitive pokemon community was always dickish)
    Shiruba and Zebstrika like this.
  13. Mr.E

    Mr.E im the best
    is a Pre-Contributoris a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2004
    Messages:
    3,653
    Klefki is a noob SwagPlayer, it doesn't even get STAB on Foul Play. :(
  14. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2012
    Messages:
    701
    So I just read up on Funbro - it seems like a set that can be beaten simply through having more patience than its user. I'm not sure why Slowbro's used for the set, though.
  15. Bedschibaer

    Bedschibaer does it for free
    is a Forum Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2013
    Messages:
    500
    Basically yes, the battle doesn't end until one player leaves or a simulator admin calls a tie. There are replays of battles going on over 2000 turns (apparently some ladder points are worth that time). The set isn't even viable imo, but nobody expects it and so you can take advantage of that and trap something that can't 3hko slowbro.
    Slowbro is just the best thing that could pull off that strategy in standard play. You need Heal pulse, recycle (or harvest), a trapping move (or ability) and a recovery move. According to showdowns dexsearch command the only mons that have this are Blissey, Slowbro/Slowking and Smeargle. Simply stats wise slowbro is the best choice imo (it has to be able to take decently srtong crit struggles), but the strategy works with the other mons too - at least on paper. There was also some ridiculous theorycrafting about sets like pain split Mew that aimed at the same thing, not sure if any of those even worked though.
  16. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2012
    Messages:
    701
    If you've got something trapped that can't 3HKO you or Toxic you (as this set seems to require), why not just run a Starf Berry instead of Leppa Berry, and an attacking move instead of Heal Pulse?
  17. Bedschibaer

    Bedschibaer does it for free
    is a Forum Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2013
    Messages:
    500
    Because the whole point of this was to create an infinite battle, not to actually win a game legitimately.
  18. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2008
    Messages:
    1,142
    You can't rely on a Starf Berry because it boosts a random stat.

    The whole purpose is to just endlessly stall (or be a dick, as mentioned) and that's it. If you do anything else, you'll break the cycle. Heal Pulse keeps them from killing themselves with recoil. Leppa will allow you to keep using it.
  19. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2012
    Messages:
    701
    You can if you have Recycle and you've trapped something that can't 3HKO you.
    Piexplode likes this.
  20. Firestar493

    Firestar493

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2013
    Messages:
    5
    If you're against a Pokemon with a total of 64 PP (assuming 16 in each move), you would have to Slack Off all the damage. Slack Off only has 16 PP, so such a set of getting the opponent to Struggle relying on lack of Leppa Berry can only be achieved with the opponent only 8HKOing you (mono-attacking Rapid Spin?) or running out of decently powered moves before you run out of Slack Off. Additionally, If you have Block, Slack Off, Recycle, and Heal Pulse, that's already four moves, and therefore can't put an attacking move (although I assume your set doesn't need Heal Pulse). Even if you decide to not use Heal Pulse, you have to be at 1/4 health to activate the berry, which is extremely risky outside of weak Struggle (which itself is unlikely unless it's something like a Choice user that can't hurt you, but they should have switched out before Block anyway) that you won't get to due to lack of Leppa Berry. Additionally, it's not fitting for the set because of how the set wasn't made for directly winning, but rather for trolling.
  21. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    1,261
    While infinite battles are an interesting topic, we're getting derailed here. Further posts will be about the Toxicroak Effect.
  22. meteor64

    meteor64

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2008
    Messages:
    321
    Aerodactyl from GSC to ADV got it real nice- the only direct benefits to it were a decent Rock STAB and recoilless Double Edge. But everything got a whole lot less bulky, Speed mattered more, Choice Band existed, and most importantly, Spikes were buffed- and it turns out, Aero was really good in conjunction with Spikes. And immune to them, too. Not to mention, being immune to sandstorm became actually important, giving him yet another notable point.
  23. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    1,261
    I think Aero doesn't quite count. Rock Slide flinches are a huge part of what makes Aero so good, as is the addition of Choice Band, which Aerodactyl directly benefits from using, rather than benefiting second-hand.
  24. meteor64

    meteor64

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2008
    Messages:
    321
    Fair enough, although I think Spikes are a very significant factor in Aero's success as well. With the exception of Skarm pretty much all of Aero's switch ins really suffer from layers on the field, they make him that much easier to use.
  25. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2012
    Messages:
    701
    Without Choice Band and Rock Slide, it wouldn't be nearly as good. Aerodactyl's problem in the first two gens is that he's really fast but can't actually 2HKO much thanks to his lack of STAB and kinda 'meh' Attack. ADV rolls around, and suddenly he gets a decent STAB and a way to raise his Attack, so he suddenly pwns arse. The metagame getting less bulky helped, but a large chunk of it was from Aero directly getting better options, so he's not an example of the Toxicroak Effect.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)