The Trial of the King Killers [Anti-Metagame Defensive "Tier List"] Update: T11 Done!

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Katakiri, Apr 11, 2012.

  1. Katakiri

    Katakiri ディアンシー! ディアンシー...ディアンシー!
    is a Pokemon Researcher

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2010
    Messages:
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    Welcome to the Anti-Metagame "Tier List!"

    This is a list of Pokemon that counter the Top 11 in OU arranged into an easily readable "tier list" for your team building convenience. It will soon be a Top 20 list but for the moment, it's just Top 11.

    A Few Quick Notes Before Reading On:
    Ferrothorn, Choice Band Dragonite, Choice Band Terrakion, & Choice Specs Politoed were NOT included in the making of the purely defensive list.
    Ferrothorn’s lack of power & coverage made the list far too large; to give you an idea, Standard Ferrothorn can’t 2HKO about 60~70% of the useable Pokémon in the game. Adding him to the list changed so little that it wasn't worth the large amount of time it would take to add all those Pokemon to the list.
    Choice Band Dragonite, Band Terrakion, & Specs Politoed were excluded all for the same reason: Due to having 4 Moves for coverage & immense power, there were only around 5 Pokémon for each that could take a hit from them. Because all the other Top 11 Pokémon only get one set each, giving them 2 sets would give Pokemon like Jellicent & Gligar unfair tiering numbers.
    Gliscor was given a +2 Attack boost as with only Earthquake & Ice Fang, his counters were nearly as numerous as Ferrothorn’s. Gliscor can easily get to +2 behind a Sub before he must confront his foe so I felt the +2 was justified.

    To-Do List:
    Code:
    - Make this into a Top 20 List (The Top 11 will still be listed)
    - Multiple Sets for the Top 20 ...Not entirely sure how I'll handle that.
    - Moveset Listings
    - Prettying-up the thread
    Step 1 – Defense Calcs!
    What I did was, I took mass damage calculations for the Scizor, Dragonite, Heatran, Rotom-W, Tyranitar, Politoed, Terrakion, Gliscor, Jirachi, & Landorus sets listed below and included every single On-Site set from OU to NU.
    Then I took any Pokémon that had a set that cannot be 2HKOed by ANY of the selected Pokémon sets’ moves and made them into the alphabetized lists below.


    Scizor Choice Band (open)

    Alomomola
    Amoonguss
    Cofagrigus
    Donphan
    Dragonite
    Dusclops
    Forretress
    Garbodor
    Gligar
    Gliscor
    Golbat
    Gyarados
    Hippopotas
    Hippowdon
    Hitmontop
    Jirachi
    Luxray
    Masquerain
    Metang
    Milotic
    Moltres
    Nidoqueen
    Pelipper
    Poliwrath
    Qwilfish
    Rotom-S
    Salamence
    Sandslash
    Scyther
    Seadra
    Shelgon
    Skarmory
    Suicune
    Swalot
    Tentacruel
    Torkoal
    Tropius
    Volcarona
    Weezing
    Whirlipede
    Wormadam-G
    Zapdos

    Dragonite Dragon Dance (Outrage (open)

    Alomomola
    Bronzong
    Celebi
    Chansey
    Cloyster
    Cobalion
    Cofagrigus
    Cresselia
    Crustle
    Deoxys-D
    Donphan
    Dusclops
    Empoleon
    Gligar
    Gliscor
    Golbat
    Granbull
    Gyarados
    Heatran
    Hippopotas
    Hippowdon
    Hitmontop
    Leafeon
    Lickilicky
    Luxray
    Masquerain
    Mesprit
    Metagross
    Metang
    Mew
    Milotic
    Musharna
    Piloswine
    Porygon2
    Probopass
    Regirock
    Relicanth
    Rhydon
    Seadra
    Skarmory
    Slowbro
    Steelix
    Suicune
    Tangela
    Tangrowth
    Torkoal
    Torterra
    Uxie
    Vigoroth
    Weezing
    Whirlipede
    Wobbuffet

    Heatran Offensive (open)

    Alomomola
    Audino
    Azumarill
    Bibarel
    Blastoise
    Blissey
    Chansey
    Charizard
    Clefable
    Cradily
    Cresselia
    Deoxys-D
    Dragonair
    Dragonite
    Dusclops
    Empoleon
    Feraligatr
    Frillish
    Gardevoir
    Gastrodon
    Gorebyss
    Grumpig
    Gurdurr
    Gyarados
    Hariyama
    Heatran
    Hypno
    Jellicent
    Kingdra
    Lapras
    Latias
    Lickilicky
    Lumineon
    Magcargo
    Mandibuzz
    Mantine
    Milotic
    Miltank
    Moltres
    Muk
    Munchlax
    Ninetales
    Noctowl
    Octillery
    Phione
    Politoed
    Poliwrath
    Porygon
    Porygon2
    Probopass
    Quagsire
    Regigigas
    Rotom-H
    Rotom-W
    Samurott
    Seismitoad
    Shelgon
    Shuckle
    Slowbro
    Slowking
    Snorlax
    Suicune
    Swampert
    Tentacool
    Terrakion
    Throh
    Togekiss
    Tyranitar
    Umbreon
    Vaporeon
    Wailord
    Walrein
    Wartortle
    Whiscash

    Rotom-W Choice Scarf (open)

    Altaria
    Amoonguss
    Ampharos
    Articuno
    Audino
    Blissey
    Bronzong
    Celebi
    Chansey
    Clefable
    Cradily
    Cresselia
    Cryogonal
    Deoxys-D
    Dragonair
    Dragonite
    Druddigon
    Dusclops
    Eelektross
    Electabuzz
    Empoleon
    Fraxure
    Frillish
    Gallade
    Gardevoir
    Gastrodon
    Gothitelle
    Grumpig
    Gurdurr
    Hariyama
    Haxorus
    Hydreigon
    Hypno
    Jellicent
    Jirachi
    Kecleon
    Kingdra
    Kyurem
    Lanturn
    Lapras
    Latias
    Latios
    Lickilicky
    Ludicolo
    Magnezone
    Mandibuzz
    Meganium
    Metang
    Mew
    Milotic
    Miltank
    Misdreavus
    Muk
    Munchlax
    Musharna
    Ninetales
    Noctowl
    Porygon
    Porygon2
    Quagsire
    Regice
    Regigigas
    Registeel
    Roselia
    Roserade
    Rotom-C
    Rotom-W
    Salamence
    Scrafty
    Scraggy
    Serperior
    Shaymin
    Shelgon
    Slowking
    Snorlax
    Spiritomb
    Tentacool
    Throh
    Togekiss
    Togetic
    Torterra
    Toxicroak
    Tropius
    Tyranitar
    Umbreon
    Uxie
    Venusaur
    Vileplume
    Virizion
    Walrein
    Wartortle
    Wigglytuff
    Wobbuffet
    Zapdos
    Zweilous

    Tyranitar SpDefensive + Stone Edge (open)

    Alomomola
    Amoonguss
    Ampharos
    Azumarill
    Blastoise
    Breloom
    Bronzong
    Carracosta
    Celebi
    Chansey
    Cobalion
    Cofagrigus
    Conkeldurr
    Cottonee
    Cresselia
    Donphan
    Dragonair
    Dragonite
    Drapion
    Druddigon
    Dusclops
    Escavalier
    Feraligatr
    Ferroseed
    Forretress
    Gabite
    Garbodor
    Gastrodon
    Gligar
    Gliscor
    Granbull
    Gurdurr
    Gyarados
    Hariyama
    Hippopotas
    Hippowdon
    Hitmontop
    Huntail
    Jirachi
    Lanturn
    Leafeon
    Lickilicky
    Lilligant
    Ludicolo
    Luxray
    Machamp
    Machoke
    Marowak
    Meganium
    Metagross
    Metang
    Mew
    Milotic
    Muk
    Musharna
    Nidoqueen
    Omanyte
    Omastar
    Phione
    Piloswine
    Politoed
    Poliwrath
    Porygon2
    Quagsire
    Qwilfish
    Regirock
    Rhydon
    Rhyperior
    Rotom-C
    Sableye
    Salamence
    Sandslash
    Scizor
    Seadra
    Seismitoad
    Serperior
    Shaymin
    Shelgon
    Skarmory
    Slowbro
    Spiritomb
    Steelix
    Stunfisk
    Suicune
    Swalot
    Swampert
    Tangela
    Tangrowth
    Tentacruel
    Throh
    Torterra
    Toxicroak
    Uxie
    Vaporeon
    Venusaur
    Vigoroth
    Vileplume
    Virizion
    Wartortle
    Weezing
    Whimsicott
    Whiscash
    Wormadam-G
    Wormadam-S

    Politoed Choice Scarf (Weather: Rain) (open)

    Alomomola
    Amoonguss
    Articuno
    Azumarill
    Blastoise
    Blissey
    Celebi
    Chansey
    Cresselia
    Dragonair
    Dragonite
    Dusclops
    Feraligatr
    Ferroseed
    Frillish
    Gyarados
    Jellicent
    Jynx
    Kingdra
    Lanturn
    Lapras
    Latias
    Ludicolo
    Mantine
    Meganium
    Milotic
    Munchlax
    Ninetales
    Politoed
    Poliwrath
    Regice
    Regigigas
    Registeel
    Roselia
    Rotom-C
    Shedinja
    Shelgon
    Slowbro
    Slowking
    Snorlax
    Suicune
    Tentacool
    Tentacruel
    Togetic
    Toxicroak
    Tyranitar
    Umbreon
    Vaporeon
    Virizion
    Walrein
    Wartortle

    Terrakion Choice Scarf (open)

    Alomomola
    Amoonguss
    Blastoise
    Bronzong
    Claydol
    Cofagrigus
    Cresselia
    Deoxys-D
    Donphan
    Druddigon
    Duosion
    Dusclops
    Dusknoir
    Forretress
    Gallade
    Garbodor
    Gligar
    Gliscor
    Golurk
    Gothitelle
    Gurdurr
    Hippopotas
    Hippowdon
    Hitmontop
    Jellicent
    Jirachi
    Latias
    Leafeon
    Luxray
    Meganium
    Mesprit
    Metang
    Mew
    Milotic
    Misdreavus
    Musharna
    Nidoking
    Nidoqueen
    Poliwrath
    Quagsire
    Qwilfish
    Reuniclus
    Rhydon
    Sandslash
    Seadra
    Shelgon
    Skarmory
    Slowbro
    Spiritomb
    Stunfisk
    Suicune
    Swalot
    Swampert
    Tangela
    Tangrowth
    Torterra
    Toxicroak
    Uxie
    Vaporeon
    Venusaur
    Vileplume
    Weezing
    Wobbuffet
    Wormadam-G

    Gliscor Swords Dance (+2 Attack) (open)

    Abomasnow
    Alomomola
    Armaldo
    Articuno
    Azelf
    Blastoise
    Bronzong
    Celebi
    Chansey
    Charizard
    Chimecho
    Claydol
    Cloyster
    Cobalion
    Cofagrigus
    Cottonee
    Cradily
    Cresselia
    Crustle
    Cryogonal
    Deoxys-D
    Donphan
    Dusclops
    Dusknoir
    Eelektross
    Empoleon
    Exeggutor
    Ferroseed
    Ferrothorn
    Forretress
    Glaceon
    Golbat
    Granbull
    Gurdurr
    Gyarados
    Heatran
    Heracross
    Hippopotas
    Hippowdon
    Hitmontop
    Illumise
    Latias
    Leafeon
    Lickilicky
    Ludicolo
    Magcargo
    Magikarp (OU One Speed, One Gear, One Moveset [Air Balloon])
    Magnezone
    Mandibuzz
    Mantine
    Masquerain
    Meganium
    Mesprit
    Metagross
    Mew
    Milotic
    Misdreavus
    Mismagius
    Moltres
    Musharna
    Ninetales
    Pelipper
    Piloswine
    Pinsir
    Poliwrath
    Porygon2
    Probopass
    Quagsire
    Regigigas
    Reuniclus
    Rotom
    Rotom-F
    Rotom-H
    Rotom-S
    Rotom-W
    Sandslash
    Scyther
    Seadra
    Shedinja
    Shelgon
    Shuckle
    Skarmory
    Slowbro
    Solrock
    Suicune
    Swampert
    Swoobat
    Tangela
    Tangrowth
    Terrakion
    Tyranitar
    Uxie
    Vigoroth
    Volbeat
    Weezing
    Whirlipede
    Wobbuffet
    Wormadam-G
    Zapdos

    Jirachi SubPara (open)

    Aggron
    Alomomola
    Altaria
    Amoonguss
    Ampharos
    Arbok
    Arcanine
    Audino
    Azelf
    Azumarill
    Basculin
    Basculin-B
    Bastiodon
    Beheeyem
    Bibarel
    Bisharp
    Blastoise
    Blissey
    Bouffalant
    Braviary
    Breloom
    Bronzong
    Camerupt
    Carracosta
    Celebi
    Chandelure
    Chansey
    Charizard
    Chimecho
    Clamperl
    Claydol
    Clefable
    Cloyster
    Cobalion
    Cofagrigus
    Conkeldurr
    Corsola
    Cottonee
    Crawdaunt
    Cresselia
    Crobat
    Crustle
    Darmanitan
    Deoxys-D
    Dewgong
    Donphan
    Dragonair
    Dragonite
    Drapion
    Drifblim
    Druddigon
    Dunsparce
    Duosion
    Dusclops
    Dusknoir
    Eelektross
    Electabuzz
    Electivire
    Electrode
    Emboar
    Emolga
    Empoleon
    Entei
    Exeggutor
    Exploud
    Feraligatr
    Flareon
    Floatzel
    Fraxure
    Frillish
    Gabite
    Garbodor
    Gardevoir
    Gastrodon
    Gligar
    Gliscor
    Golbat
    Golduck
    Golurk
    Gorebyss
    Gothitelle
    Granbull
    Gurdurr
    Gyarados
    Hariyama
    Haxorus
    Heatmor
    Heatran
    Hippopotas
    Hippowdon
    Hitmontop
    Huntail
    Hydreigon
    Hypno
    Infernape
    Jellicent
    Jirachi
    Kabutops
    Kangaskhan
    Kingdra
    Kingler
    Klinklang
    Krookodile
    Lairon
    Lampent
    Landorus
    Lanturn
    Lapras
    Latias
    Latios
    Leafeon
    Lickilicky
    Lilligant
    Lopunny
    Ludicolo
    Lumineon
    Luxray
    Machamp
    Machoke
    Magcargo
    Magmortar
    Magneton
    Magnezone
    Mandibuzz
    Manectric
    Mantine
    Marowak
    Masquerain
    Mawile
    Meganium
    Mesprit
    Metagross
    Metang
    Mew
    Milotic
    Miltank
    Misdreavus
    Moltres
    Muk
    Munchlax
    Murkrow
    Musharna
    Natu
    Nidoqueen
    Ninetales
    Octillery
    Omanyte
    Omastar
    Pelipper
    Phione
    Piloswine
    Politoed
    Poliwrath
    Porygon
    Porygon2
    Probopass
    Quagsire
    Qwilfish
    Raikou
    Rapidash
    Regigigas
    Regirock
    Registeel
    Relicanth
    Reuniclus
    Rhydon
    Rhyperior
    Rotom
    Rotom-C
    Rotom-H
    Rotom-S
    Rotom-W
    Sableye
    Salamence
    Samurott
    Sandslash
    Sawsbuck
    Scrafty
    Scraggy
    Scyther
    Seadra
    Seaking
    Seismitoad
    Serperior
    Shaymin
    Shelgon
    Sigilyph
    Simipour
    Simisear
    Skarmory
    Slaking
    Slowbro
    Slowking
    Snorlax
    Spiritomb
    Staraptor
    Starmie
    Steelix
    Stoutland
    Stunfisk
    Sudowoodo
    Suicune
    Swalot
    Swampert
    Swanna
    Tangela
    Tangrowth
    Tauros
    Tentacool
    Tentacruel
    Throh
    Togekiss
    Togetic
    Torkoal
    Torterra
    Toxicroak
    Tropius
    Typhlosion
    Umbreon
    Unfezant
    Uxie
    Vaporeon
    Venusaur
    Vespiquen
    Victini
    Vigoroth
    Vileplume
    Volcarona
    Wailord
    Walrein
    Wartortle
    Weezing
    Whimsicott
    Whirlipede
    Whiscash
    Wigglytuff
    Wobbuffet
    Wormadam-G
    Wynaut
    Xatu
    Zapdos
    Zebstrika
    Zweilous

    Landorus Choice Scarf (Weather: Sandstorm) (open)

    Alomomola
    Blastoise
    Breloom
    Bronzong
    Chansey
    Chimecho
    Claydol
    Cobalion
    Cofagrigus
    Cradily
    Cresselia
    Deoxys-D
    Dragonite
    Dusclops
    Dusknoir
    Empoleon
    Ferroseed
    Ferrothorn
    Forretress
    Granbull
    Gurdurr
    Gyarados
    Heatran
    Hippowdon
    Hitmontop
    Latias
    Lickilicky
    Ludicolo
    Magnezone
    Meganium
    Mesprit
    Metagross
    Mew
    Milotic
    Misdreavus
    Musharna
    Piloswine
    Politoed
    Poliwrath
    Porygon2
    Probopass
    Quagsire
    Regigigas
    Reuniclus
    Rotom
    Sawsbuck
    Seadra
    Serperior
    Shaymin
    Shelgon
    Skarmory
    Slowbro
    Suicune
    Swampert
    Terrakion
    Tyranitar
    Uxie
    Vigoroth
    Virizion
    Weezing
    Wobbuffet
    Wormadam-G

    *Sets with Air Balloon are calculated into these which is why Cobalion is anywhere near Landorus' list

    Step 2 – Sorting!
    After making 10 complete lists, I took Jirachi’s long list and added Pokémon from the other lists to make the main list.
    If a Pokémon is already on the main list and they are listed on one of the other 9 lists, they get a star next to their name and an additional star for each and every instance of being repeated, with 9 Stars being the current maximum.

    Step 3 – Tiering!
    Using the stars given to every Pokémon, I sorted the Pokémon into tiers based on the number of stars they have and cropped out the Pokémon with no stars for convenience. (The list would be very long otherwise)
    I present to you the purely Defensive Anti-Metagame "Tier List":
    Purely Defensive Anti-Metagame "Tier List" (open)
    Marvel Tier
    *********Magneto Milotic [Marvel Scale]

    S Tier
    ********Alomomola
    ********Cresselia
    ********Dusclops
    ********Shelgon
    ********Suicune

    A Tier
    *******Chansey
    *******Gyarados
    *******Poliwrath
    *******Slowbro

    B Tier
    ******Cofagrigus
    ******Deoxys-D
    ******Dragonite
    ******Gurdurr
    ******Hippowdon
    ******Hitmontop
    ******Latias
    ******Lickilicky
    ******Meganium
    ******Mew
    ******Musharna
    ******Porygon2
    ******Quagsire
    ******Seadra
    ******Uxie
    ******Weezing

    C Tier
    *****Amoonguss
    *****Blastoise
    *****Bronzong
    *****Celebi
    *****Donphan
    *****Empoleon
    *****Hippopotas
    *****Ludicolo
    *****Metang
    *****Regigigas
    *****Skarmory
    *****Wobbuffet
    *****Wormadam-G

    D Tier
    ****Cobalion
    ****Dragonair
    ****Forretress
    ****Gligar
    ****Gliscor
    ****Granbull
    ****Heatran
    ****Jellicent
    ****Jirachi
    ****Leafeon
    ****Luxray
    ****Mesprit
    ****Metagross
    ****Misdreavus
    ****Ninetales
    ****Piloswine
    ****Politoed
    ****Probopass
    ****Sandslash
    ****Swampert
    ****Tangela
    ****Tangrowth
    ****Torterra
    ****Toxicroak
    ****Tyranitar
    ****Vaporeon
    ****Vigoroth
    ****Wartortle

    E Tier
    ***Cradily
    ***Druddigon
    ***Dusknoir
    ***Feraligatr
    ***Ferroseed
    ***Frillish
    ***Garbodor
    ***Gastrodon
    ***Golbat
    ***Hariyama
    ***Kingdra
    ***Lanturn
    ***Lapras
    ***Magnezone
    ***Mandibuzz
    ***Mantine
    ***Masquerain
    ***Moltres
    ***Muk
    ***Munchlax
    ***Nidoqueen
    ***Porygon
    ***Qwilfish
    ***Reuniclus
    ***Rhydon
    ***Rotom-C
    ***Rotom-W
    ***Salamence
    ***Serperior
    ***Shaymin
    ***Slowking
    ***Snorlax
    ***Spiritomb
    ***Swalot
    ***Tentacool
    ***Tentacruel
    ***Throh
    ***Umbreon
    ***Venusaur
    ***Vileplume
    ***Virizion
    ***Walrein
    ***Whirlipede
    ***Zapdos

    F Tier
    **Ampharos
    **Articuno
    **Audino
    **Azumarill
    **Blissey
    **Breloom
    **Charizard
    **Chimecho
    **Claydol
    **Clefable
    **Cloyster
    **Cottonee
    **Crustle
    **Eelektross
    **Gardevoir
    **Gothitelle
    **Hypno
    **Magcargo
    **Miltank
    **Pelipper
    **Phione
    **Regirock
    **Registeel
    **Rotom
    **Rotom-H
    **Rotom-S
    **Scyther
    **Seismitoad
    **Steelix
    **Stunfisk
    **Terrakion
    **Togekiss
    **Togetic
    **Torkoal
    **Tropius
    **Whiscash

    G Tier
    *Altaria
    *Azelf
    *Bibarel
    *Carracosta
    *Conkeldurr
    *Cryogonal
    *Drapion
    *Electabuzz
    *Exeggutor
    *Ferrothorn
    *Fraxure
    *Gabite
    *Gallade
    *Golurk
    *Gorebyss
    *Grumpig
    *Haxorus
    *Huntail
    *Hydreigon
    *Latios
    *Lilligant
    *Lumineon
    *Machamp
    *Machoke
    *Marowak
    *Noctowl
    *Octillery
    *Omanyte
    *Omastar
    *Regice
    *Relicanth
    *Rhyperior
    *Roselia
    *Sableye
    *Samurott
    *Sawsbuck
    *Scrafty
    *Scraggy
    *Shedinja
    *Volcarona
    *Wailord
    *Whimsicott
    *Wigglytuff
    *Zweilous

    Step 4 – Offensive Calcs!

    Simply tanking hits isn't enough. King Killers need to be able to dish-out hits strong enough to break the Pokemon they're walling. So with that in mind, I took the lists of Pokemon that wall each top 11 threat and went through one by one, figuring out which Pokemon can deal 50% or more per hit to the Pokemon they wall.

    That allowed me to creat these lists of "true" counters for each of the Top 11 Pokemon. These Pokemon take less than 50% from any move the Offensive sets above carry, while being able to, at the very least, 2HKO the most common Defensive variants of the the same Pokemon:

    Dragonite Bulky DD (Multiscale broken) (open)
    Bronzong
    Celebi
    Cloyster
    Cobalion
    Cresselia
    Crustle
    Donphan
    Dusclops
    Empoleon
    Gliscor
    Granbull
    Gyarados
    Heatran
    Hippowdon
    Hitmontop
    Lickilicky
    Luxray
    Mesprit
    Metagross
    Milotic
    Musharna
    Piloswine
    Porygon2
    Probopass
    Regirock
    Relicanth
    Rhydon
    Seadra
    Slowbro
    Suicune
    Tangrowth
    Torterra
    Wobbuffet

    Ferrothorn Standard (open)
    Aggron
    Altaria
    Ampharos
    Arcanine
    Armaldo
    Breloom
    Cacturne
    Celebi
    Chandelure
    Charizard
    Cobalion
    Combusken
    Conkeldurr
    Cradily
    Darmanitan
    Dragonite
    Druddigon
    Durant
    Dusknoir
    Eelektross
    Electabuzz
    Emboar
    Empoleon
    Entei
    Escavalier
    Exeggutor
    Flareon
    Gardevoir
    Granbull
    Hariyama
    Heatmor
    Heatran
    Hippowdon
    Hitmontop
    Infernape
    Jirachi
    Kangaskhan
    Kingdra
    Lampent
    Latias
    Leafeon
    Lickilicky
    Lucario
    Luxray
    Machamp
    Machoke
    Magcargo
    Magmortar
    Magneton
    Magnezone
    Mawile
    Metagross
    Mew
    Moltres
    Muk
    Murkrow
    Nidoqueen
    Ninetales
    Porygon2
    Raikou
    Rapidash
    Regice
    Reuniclus
    Rotom-C
    Rotom-H
    Salamence
    Scizor
    Scrafty
    Shaymin
    Simisear
    Snorlax
    Tangrowth
    Togekiss
    Torkoal
    Torterra
    Tropius
    Typhlosion
    Venusaur
    Victini
    Volcarona
    Weezing
    Zapdos
    Zweilous

    Gliscor Defensive (open)
    Abomasnow
    Armaldo
    Articuno
    Azelf
    Blastoise
    Bronzong
    Celebi
    Charizard
    Claydol
    Cloyster
    Cobalion
    Cresselia
    Cryogonal
    Dusclops
    Dusknoir
    Eelektross
    Empoleon
    Exeggutor
    Ferrothorn
    Forretress
    Glaceon
    Granbull
    Gyarados
    Heatran
    Heracross
    Hippowdon
    Latias
    Lickilicky
    Ludicolo
    Magcargo
    Magnezone
    Mantine
    Masquerain
    Mesprit
    Metagross
    Mew
    Milotic
    Mismagius
    Moltres
    Musharna
    Ninetales
    Pelipper
    Piloswine
    Porygon2
    Quagsire
    Reuniclus
    Rotom
    Rotom-F
    Rotom-H
    Rotom-S
    Rotom-W
    Seadra
    Slowbro
    Solrock
    Suicune
    Swampert
    Swoobat
    Tangela
    Tangrowth
    Terrakion
    Tyranitar
    Wobbuffet
    Zapdos

    Heatran Specially Defensive (open)

    Azumarill
    Blastoise
    Blissey
    Charizard
    Cradily
    Dragonair
    Dragonite
    Empoleon
    Feraligatr
    Gardevoir
    Gastrodon
    Gorebyss
    Gurdurr
    Gyarados
    Hariyama
    Heatran
    Jellicent
    Kingdra
    Lapras
    Latias
    Lickilicky
    Lumineon
    Miltank
    Muk
    Munchlax
    Octillery
    Politoed
    Poliwrath
    Probopass
    Quagsire
    Regigigas
    Rotom-H
    Rotom-W
    Samurott
    Seismitoad
    Slowbro
    Slowking
    Snorlax
    Suicune
    Swampert
    Terrakion
    Throh
    Togekiss
    Tyranitar
    Vaporeon
    Wailord
    Whiscash

    Jirachi Specially Defensive (open)
    Aggron
    Altaria
    Ampharos
    Arbok
    Arcanine
    Azelf
    Azumarill
    Basculin
    Basculin-B
    Bisharp
    Bouffalant
    Braviary
    Breloom
    Bronzong
    Camerupt
    Carracosta
    Celebi
    Chandelure
    Charizard
    Clefable
    Cobalion
    Conkeldurr
    Crawdaunt
    Crustle
    Darmanitan
    Donphan
    Dragonite
    Drapion
    Druddigon
    Eelektross
    Electivire
    Emboar
    Empoleon
    Entei
    Exeggutor
    Exploud
    Feraligatr
    Flareon
    Floatzel
    Gabite
    Gastrodon
    Gligar
    Gliscor
    Golduck
    Golurk
    Granbull
    Gyarados
    Hariyama
    Haxorus
    Heatmor
    Heatran
    Hippowdon
    Hitmontop
    Hydreigon
    Infernape
    Jellicent
    Kabutops
    Kangaskhan
    Kingdra
    Kingler
    Krookodile
    Lairon
    Lampent
    Landorus
    Lickilicky
    Luxray
    Machamp
    Magcargo
    Magmortar
    Magneton
    Manectric
    Marowak
    Mawile
    Metagross
    Mew
    Miltank
    Moltres
    Muk
    Nidoqueen
    Ninetales
    Octillery
    Omastar
    Piloswine
    Politoed
    Poliwrath
    Quagsire
    Raikou
    Rapidash
    Regigigas
    Regirock
    Relicanth
    Rhydon
    Rhyperior
    Rotom-H
    Rotom-W
    Salamence
    Samurott
    Sandslash
    Sawsbuck
    Scrafty
    Seismitoad
    Simipour
    Simisear
    Slaking
    Slowbro
    Slowking
    Snorlax
    Staraptor
    Starmie
    Steelix
    Stoutland
    Stunfisk
    Sudowoodo
    Swampert
    Tangrowth
    Tauros
    Togekiss
    Torterra
    Toxicroak
    Typhlosion
    Victini
    Vigoroth
    Volcarona
    Whiscash
    Wobbuffet
    Wormadam-G
    Zapdos
    Zebstrika
    Zweilous

    Landorus Choice Scarf (open)
    Alomomola
    Blastoise
    Breloom
    Bronzong
    Claydol
    Cobalion
    Cofagrigus
    Cradily
    Cresselia
    Dragonite
    Dusclops
    Dusknoir
    Empoleon
    Ferrothorn
    Granbull
    Gyarados
    Heatran
    Hippowdon
    Hitmontop
    Latias
    Lickilicky
    Ludicolo
    Magnezone
    Meganium
    Mesprit
    Metagross
    Mew
    Milotic
    Musharna
    Piloswine
    Politoed
    Poliwrath
    Porygon2
    Quagsire
    Regigigas
    Reuniclus
    Rotom
    Sawsbuck
    Seadra
    Serperior
    Shaymin
    Shelgon
    Slowbro
    Suicune
    Swampert
    Terrakion
    Tyranitar
    Vigoroth
    Virizion
    Wobbuffet

    Politoed Defensive (open)
    Azumarill
    Celebi
    Dragonite
    Jellicent
    Kingdra
    Lanturn
    Latias
    Ludicolo
    Meganium
    Ninetales
    Politoed
    Regice
    Rotom-C
    Slowbro
    Snorlax
    Toxicroak
    Tyranitar
    Vaporeon
    Virizion

    Rotom-W Bulky Attacker (open)
    Altaria
    Amoonguss
    Ampharos
    Celebi
    Clefable
    Cradily
    Dragonair
    Dragonite
    Druddigon
    Eelektross
    Electabuzz
    Empoleon
    Fraxure
    Gallade
    Gardevoir
    Gastrodon
    Gurdurr
    Hariyama
    Haxorus
    Hydreigon
    Jellicent
    Kecleon
    Kingdra
    Kyurem
    Lanturn
    Latias
    Latios
    Lickilicky
    Ludicolo
    Magnezone
    Meganium
    Mew
    Miltank
    Muk
    Musharna
    Ninetales
    Porygon
    Porygon2
    Regice
    Regigigas
    Roselia
    Rotom-C
    Rotom-W
    Salamence
    Scrafty
    Serperior
    Shaymin
    Shelgon
    Slowking
    Snorlax
    Spiritomb
    Togekiss
    Torterra
    Toxicroak
    Tropius
    Tyranitar
    Venusaur
    Vileplume
    Virizion
    Wobbuffet
    Zapdos
    Zweilous

    Scizor Choice Band (open)
    Amoonguss
    Donphan
    Dragonite
    Gliscor
    Gyarados
    Hippowdon
    Hitmontop
    Jirachi
    Luxray
    Moltres
    Nidoqueen
    Pelipper
    Poliwrath
    Rotom-S
    Salamence
    Scyther
    Shelgon
    Suicune
    Tentacruel
    Torkoal
    Tropius
    Volcarona
    Weezing
    Zapdos

    Terrakion Choice Scarf (open)
    Amoonguss
    Blastoise
    Bronzong
    Claydol
    Cresselia
    Donphan
    Druddigon
    Duosion
    Dusknoir
    Gallade
    Gligar
    Gliscor
    Golurk
    Gothitelle
    Gurdurr
    Hippopotas
    Hippowdon
    Hitmontop
    Jellicent
    Jirachi
    Latias
    Leafeon
    Luxray
    Meganium
    Mesprit
    Metang
    Mew
    Milotic
    Musharna
    Nidoking
    Nidoqueen
    Poliwrath
    Quagsire
    Qwilfish
    Reuniclus
    Rhydon
    Sandslash
    Seadra
    Shelgon
    Slowbro
    Stunfisk
    Suicune
    Swampert
    Tangela
    Tangrowth
    Torterra
    Toxicroak
    Uxie
    Vaporeon
    Venusaur
    Vileplume
    Wobbuffet
    Wormadam-G

    Tyranitar Specially Defensive (open)
    Ampharos
    Azumarill
    Breloom
    Bronzong
    Carracosta
    Celebi
    Cobalion
    Conkeldurr
    Donphan
    Dragonite
    Drapion
    Druddigon
    Dusclops
    Escavalier
    Feraligatr
    Gabite
    Gliscor
    Granbull
    Gurdurr
    Gyarados
    Hariyama
    Hippowdon
    Hitmontop
    Huntail
    Jirachi
    Lanturn
    Leafeon
    Lickilicky
    Lilligant
    Ludicolo
    Luxray
    Machamp
    Machoke
    Marowak
    Metagross
    Mew
    Muk
    Omastar
    Piloswine
    Politoed
    Poliwrath
    Qwilfish
    Regirock
    Rhydon
    Rhyperior
    Rotom-C
    Salamence
    Sandslash
    Scizor
    Seismitoad
    Serperior
    Shaymin
    Slowbro
    Swampert
    Tangela
    Tangrowth
    Throh
    Torterra
    Toxicroak
    Venusaur
    Virizion
    Whiscash


    Step 5 – The “Finished” List!
    Taking the Purely Defensive Tier List from before, I gave each Pokemon on that list one extra star for each "True Counter" list they appear on, adding 11 stars to the maximum amount possible. After sorting the Pokemon back into tiers, I created and present to you the the True Anti-Top 11 Tier List:
    Code:
    [B]Bro-Tier[/B]
    ***************Slowbro 
    
    [B]S-Tier[/B]
    **************Dragonite (Multiscale greatly influences calcs and ranking)
    **************Gyarados 
    **************Hippowdon (Sand Stream)
    **************Lickilicky 
    **************Suicune 
    
    [B]A-Tier[/B]
    *************Hitmontop 
    *************Latias 
    *************Mew 
    *************Milotic (Marvel Scale greatly influences calcs and ranking)
    *************Poliwrath 
    
    [B]B-Tier[/B]
    ************Celebi 
    ************Cresselia 
    ************Dusclops 
    ************Empoleon
    ************Shelgon 
    
    [B]C-Tier[/B]
    ***********Bronzong 
    ***********Musharna 
    ***********Porygon2 
    ***********Quagsire 
    ***********Wobbuffet  (Counter & Mirror Coat greatly influence placement)
    
    [B]D-Tier[/B]
    **********Cobalion 
    **********Donphan 
    **********Granbull 
    **********Gurdurr 
    **********Heatran 
    **********Ludicolo 
    **********Luxray 
    **********Meganium 
    **********Metagross 
    **********Seadra 
    **********Swampert 
    **********Tangrowth 
    **********Torterra 
    
    [B]E-Tier[/B]
    *********Alomomola
    *********Amoonguss 
    *********Blastoise 
    *********Gliscor 
    *********Jellicent 
    *********Ninetales (Drought)
    *********Piloswine 
    *********Politoed (Drizzle)
    *********Regigigas 
    *********Toxicroak 
    *********Tyranitar (Sand Stream)
    
    [B]F-Tier[/B]
    ********Druddigon 
    ********Hariyama 
    ********Jirachi 
    ********Kingdra 
    ********Magnezone 
    ********Mesprit 
    ********Muk 
    ********Salamence 
    ********Snorlax
    ********Weezing 
    ********Zapdos 
    
    [B]G-Tier[/B]
    *******Chansey 
    *******Cofagrigus 
    *******Cradily
    *******Dusknoir 
    *******Leafeon 
    *******Moltres 
    *******Nidoqueen 
    *******Reuniclus 
    *******Rhydon 
    *******Rotom-C 
    *******Rotom-W 
    *******Sandslash 
    *******Shaymin 
    *******Tangela 
    *******Uxie 
    *******Vaporeon 
    *******Venusaur
    *******Virizion
    *******Wormadam-G 
    
    [B]H-Tier[/B]
    ******Ampharos 
    ******Azumarill 
    ******Breloom
    ******Charizard 
    ******Deoxys-D 
    ******Dragonair 
    ******Eelektross 
    ******Feraligatr 
    ******Gastrodon 
    ******Gligar 
    ******Hippopotas 
    ******Lanturn 
    ******Metang 
    ******Probopass 
    ******Rotom-H 
    ******Serperior 
    ******Slowking 
    ******Togekiss 
    ******Vigoroth 
    
    [B]I-Tier[/B]
    *****Claydol 
    *****Forretress
    *****Gardevoir 
    *****Magcargo 
    *****Miltank 
    *****Munchlax 
    *****Qwilfish 
    *****Regirock 
    *****Seismitoad 
    *****Skarmory 
    *****Terrakion
    *****Throh 
    *****Tropius 
    *****Vileplume 
    *****Whiscash 
    
    [B]J-Tier[/B]
    ****Altaria 
    ****Clefable 
    ****Cloyster 
    ****Conkeldurr 
    ****Crustle 
    ****Exeggutor 
    ****Lapras 
    ****Machamp 
    ****Mantine 
    ****Masquerain 
    ****Misdreavus 
    ****Pelipper 
    ****Porygon 
    ****Regice
    ****Rotom 
    ****Rotom-S 
    ****Scrafty 
    ****Scyther
    ****Spiritomb 
    ****Stunfisk 
    ****Tentacruel 
    ****Torkoal 
    ****Volcarona 
    ****Wartortle 
    ****Zweilous
    
    [B]K-Tier[/B]
    ***Articuno
    ***Azelf 
    ***Carracosta 
    ***Drapion 
    ***Electabuzz 
    ***Ferroseed
    ***Ferrothorn
    ***Frillish 
    ***Gabite 
    ***Gallade
    ***Garbodor 
    ***Golbat 
    ***Golurk 
    ***Gothitelle 
    ***Haxorus 
    ***Hydreigon 
    ***Machoke 
    ***Mandibuzz 
    ***Marowak 
    ***Octillery 
    ***Omastar 
    ***Relicanth
    ***Rhyperior 
    ***Samurott 
    ***Sawsbuck 
    ***Steelix 
    ***Swalot 
    ***Tentacool 
    ***Umbreon 
    ***Walrein 
    ***Whirlipede
     
    L-Tier
    **Aggron 
    **Arcanine
    **Armaldo
    **Audino 
    **Blissey 
    **Chandelure 
    **Chimecho 
    **Cottonee 
    **Cryogonal
    **Darmanitan 
    **Emboar 
    **Entei 
    **Escavalier
    **Flareon 
    **Fraxure 
    **Gorebyss 
    **Heatmor 
    **Huntail 
    **Hypno 
    **Infernape 
    **Kangaskhan 
    **Lampent 
    **Latios 
    **Lilligant 
    **Lumineon 
    **Magmortar 
    **Magneton 
    **Mawile 
    **Phione 
    **Raikou 
    **Rapidash 
    **Registeel 
    **Roselia
    **Scizor
    **Simisear 
    **Togetic 
    **Typhlosion 
    **Victini 
    **Wailord
     
    [B]M-Tier[/B]
    *Abomasnow
    *Arbok 
    *Basculin
    *Basculin-B
    *Bibarel 
    *Bisharp 
    *Bouffalant 
    *Braviary 
    *Camerupt 
    *Crawdaunt 
    *Duosion 
    *Electivire 
    *Exploud 
    *Floatzel 
    *Glaceon
    *Golduck 
    *Grumpig
    *Heracross
    *Kabutops 
    *Kecleon
    *Kingler 
    *Krookodile 
    *Kyurem
    *Lairon 
    *Landorus 
    *Manectric 
    *Mismagius
    *Nidoking
    *Noctowl
    *Omanyte 
    *Roserade
    *Rotom-F
    *Sableye 
    *Scraggy 
    *Shedinja
    *Simipour 
    *Slaking 
    *Solrock
    *Staraptor 
    *Starmie 
    *Stoutland 
    *Sudowoodo 
    *Swoobat
    *Tauros 
    *Whimsicott 
    *Wigglytuff 
    *Zebstrika
     
    [B]Nope-Tier[/B]
    Bastiodon 
    Beheeyem 
    Cacturne
    Clamperl
    Combusken 
    Corsola
    Crobat 
    Dewgong
    Drifblim 
    Dunsparce 
    Electrode 
    Emolga 
    Illumise
    Jynx
    Klinklang 
    Lopunny 
    Magikarp (OU One Speed, One Gear, One Moveset [Air Balloon])
    Murkrow 
    Natu 
    Pinsir
    Seaking 
    Shuckle
    Sigilyph 
    Swanna 
    Unfezant 
    Vespiquen 
    Volbeat
    Wormadam-S
    Wynaut
    Xatu
    
    Slowbro has come out as the top Pokemon to deal with the Top 11 Pokemon in OU with Dragonite, Gyarados, Hippowdon, Suicune, and, surprisingly enough, Lickilicky right behind him.

    Keep in mind that a lot of these Pokemon such as Empoleon, Cobalion, or Heatran have Balloon sets which let them get past Pokemon like Landorus & Heatran that they normally wouldn't be able to.

    Intimidate is also taken into account, so Pokemon like Granbull & Gyarados are higher than they would be without it.


    I'm expanding the list to the Top 20 in OU next update. I'll base it on April OU Usage when that goes up next week.

    Until then, break the mold and take down the kings!
  2. Katakiri

    Katakiri ディアンシー! ディアンシー...ディアンシー!
    is a Pokemon Researcher

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2010
    Messages:
    945
    Reserved.
  3. bluemon

    bluemon

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2010
    Messages:
    1,519
    *golf clap*

    really nice job.

    time to make a team with poliwrath and shelgon
  4. IcyMan28

    IcyMan28

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2008
    Messages:
    2,029
    If you use a Flame Orb on Milotic (inadvisable, obviously), would Rest+Sleep Talk even be necessary? The whole point of that set is to use Rest as both recovery and to activate Marvel Scale. If FO does the latter, I would much rather use Recover for the instant heal and lack of being a sitting duck otherwise.

    Milotic's Dragon Tail is laughably weak, though, so it obviously is less effective against Sub users. Having something to help with this helps make the RestTalk set less of a liability, because Milotic can really shine if given the chance.
  5. Doughboy

    Doughboy house of champions
    is a Community Contributor
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2011
    Messages:
    1,270
    I know this may be asking too much, but do your calcs include SR damage or SR+1 layer of Spikes? SR+1 layer of Spikes is the amount used for the "Counter that Pokemon-OU" thread.
  6. Ithilanor

    Ithilanor

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2010
    Messages:
    240
    This is really interesting; great job, and thank you!
  7. Katakiri

    Katakiri ディアンシー! ディアンシー...ディアンシー!
    is a Pokemon Researcher

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2010
    Messages:
    945
    Flame Orb is to get the Defense-boost to switch-in on an attack and Phaze the next turn without having to be asleep and actually rely on Sleep Talk's 33% chance to pick Dragon Tail. Recover works too, RestTalk is more for keeping Milo healthy in a pinch. That's my take on it anyway. I'm not one to talk about it in detail, I was just pointing out that Marvel Scale Milotic is...a thing apparently. I think it's bad either way, but I'm not gonna argue with the calcs. That thing can take some hits.

    No, I'm just keeping it simple. Besides, isn't EVERYONE using Forretress or Starmie now? I seriously hate seeing those things... But no, this list has already taken hours to make and it's not even finished. I'd rather not go through the hassle of adding hazards to the equation.
  8. bluemon

    bluemon

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2010
    Messages:
    1,519
    in defense of katakiri, the top walls either resist or are neutral to hazards anyways....

    (you dont see articuno anywhere, do you? ;) )
  9. Jinzha

    Jinzha

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2012
    Messages:
    49
    Poliwrath might just be the solution to all my problems!! Now I just need a seventh party slot or something xD.

    Great to see some heavily underlooked walls getting some attention.
  10. Tetrinity

    Tetrinity

    Joined:
    May 9, 2010
    Messages:
    261
    Just out of interest, I pulled out the Pokémon that are listed for both Scizor and Rotom-W:

    VoltTurn "Counters" (open)
    Amoonguss
    Dragonite
    Dusclops
    Jirachi
    Metang
    Milotic
    Salamence
    Shelgon
    Tropius
    Zapdos

    Pretty interesting list, but some of these Pokémon definitely couldn't be considered as counters due to being incapable of hitting back. I've picked out a few that I feel could actually do something useful. ;)

    [​IMG]
    Amoonguss @ Leftovers
    Ability: Effect Spore (wish they'd hurry up and release Regenerator...)
    Nature: Calm (+SpD, -Atk)
    EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 SpD
    - Spore
    - Stun Spore
    - Giga Drain
    - Hidden Power [Fire]

    Amoonguss has real potential, in my opinion, thanks to Spore and STAB Giga Drain, which 2HKOs all standard Rotom-W (bulky attacker only after Stealth Rock) while scarfed Rotom-W can only 4HKO after Stealth Rock with HP Fire even before you consider the recovery from Giga Drain.

    Choice Band Scizor is a little more problematic, especially if Sleep Clause is active, since U-Turn is a guaranteed 2HKO and Bullet Punch is a guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. The standard OU Amoonguss set carries HP Ice, but even HP Fire can only manage a 2HKO (61.8% - 73.5%). Against Scizor, Amoonguss' best shot is either waiting until hazards wear it down enough to take it out with a single HP Fire, or catching it on the switch with status.

    [​IMG]
    Salamence @ Leftovers
    Ability: Intimidate
    Nature: Bold (+Def, -Atk) / Relaxed (+Def, -Spe)
    EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
    - Wish
    - Protect / Roost
    - Dragon Tail
    - Flamethrower

    I have to admit Salamence surprised me by showing up, but it's actually pretty damn good at the job. Against more standard Mence like DD or Mix, Rotom's best shot is Volt Switch (3HKO, 2HKO after Stealth Rock) while it fares even worse against the defensive set (4HKO, 3HKO after rocks).

    Scizor is a pain against the offensive sets, grabbing a 2HKO after rocks with Bullet Punch even after Intimidate. The defensive version pulls through, however; after Intimidate, Bullet Punch scores a mere 4HKO with rocks while Salamence gets a guaranteed OHKO with Flamethrower. Mence can then Wish/Roost off the damage. Even if the Scizor turns out to be a bulky Swords Dance variety, a +1 Bullet Punch is only a 3HKO after rocks while Flamethrower has a 56.25% chance of a OHKO with rocks. With sun support or the tiniest amount of extra residual damage, Scizor wouldn't have a hope in hell.

    It should be noted that the natures mostly just depend on what you care more about - outspeeding more threats such as Adamant Breloom or dealing more damage with Dragon Tail. You can optionally run Bold 252 HP / 196 Def / 64 Spe, which lets Mence outspeed max-Speed Jolly Scizor outside of Bullet Punch at the cost of a small amount of bulk (still a 4HKO after rocks, mind you).

    [​IMG]
    Zapdos @ Leftovers
    Ability: Pressure
    Nature: Calm (+SpD, -Atk)
    EVs: 248 HP / 236 SpD / 24 Spe
    - Discharge / Thunderbolt
    - Roost
    - Heat Wave
    - Hidden Power [Grass] / Hidden Power [Flying] / Roar

    The last Pokémon that caught my eye was Zapdos, although the standard OU sets won't do the job. In neutral weather, scarfed Rotom-W's Hydro Pump has a decent chance of 2HKOing SubRoost Zapdos, the most specially bulky standard OU set, even without rocks. The story is a little more pleasant with the UU specially defensive set, with Hydro Pump giving an extremely small chance of a 2HKO after rocks - Zapdos will generally be able to stall out Rotom's four Hydro Pump uses (Pressure) with Roost. Zapdos is then very likely to 2HKO using Thunderbolt, and can guarantee it with rocks. If Discharge is being used over Thunderbolt, HP Grass can achieve the same job.

    Rotom isn't really where Zapdos shines, though; Scizor really struggles against it. Even 4/0 neutral Zapdos is only 2HKOed after rocks by Pursuit, Scizor's strongest attack against it (!). Two Superpowers in a row can only 2HKO after rocks with max damage rolls both times. Zapdos is then capable of killing Scizor twice over with Heat Wave. Against the specially defensive set mentioned above, Zapdos is only 3HKO'd after rocks by Pursuit, which is easily Roosted away. Choice Band Scizor is then OHKOed by Heat Wave, while bulky Swords Dance is OHKOed more than 80% of the time, guaranteed after rocks.


    Bearing in mind that a VoltTurn team by its very nature will be taking plenty of residual damage from hazards, I'd say these make reasonably solid counters to the most common VoltTurn core out there. There are probably others in the list that perform very well too. What do you guys think?
  11. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!

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    Having being the poster of that topic (before it got locked because no one followed to rules) I can say it was actually SR OR one layer of spikes, not both. More than 1 layer of hazards isn't normal, especially early game when most "counters" are actually relevant (late game they get worn down to the point where they're no longer true counters in most cases).

    Anyway, this is certainly pretty interesting. What I do have to say is the biggest problem most of those "top tier" Pokemon have is that they can't do anything BACK. Simply surviving isn't any good unless you actually do something. Still, it certainly is interesting a gives a lot of rare Pokemon a chance to shine now that some light has been drawn to them. I'm sure they could all fit niches on the appropriate team.
  12. Tetrinity

    Tetrinity

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    Hence my analysis of possible counters to the case of Scizor + Rotom-W, which is probably one of the most common combinations out of the top ten. The list is interesting as it is, but it'll need expanding in order to come up with genuine counters, especially counters to entire cores. Marvel Scale Milotic may be able to avoid a 2HKO against all of the top threats, but what can it do against Pokémon like Rotom-W or Politoed besides phaze with Dragon Tail after taking a hit and burn damage?
  13. The Silent Storm

    The Silent Storm

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    In the ''volturn counter Section'' I would like to add Rocky Helmet Skarmory
    While he's pratically killed by Rotom-w Skarmory is perfect against Landorus and Scizor, wearing them down and blocking the volturn chain, this is very vital sometimes when you aren't capable to set up the SR or your opponent has a problematic spinner like say Tentacruel or Starmie.
    Anyway, great thread, might return with other things
  14. Prankster

    Prankster

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    i am surprised to see that tropius AND masquerain survives a 2hko from a scizor
    This is really helpful info. thanks
    I am definitely gonna use that awesome harvest subseed set now
  15. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    I actually use to do this all the time, but I would place in raw stats for ditermining rather than general top 20 pokemon.
  16. Joeyboy

    Joeyboy Check out my Youtube channel! JoeyboyGames!
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    Mentor

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    Wobbu Wobbu!

    Wobbuffet is mentioned in most lists, he deserves more respect. Sure this metagame is more offensive, everyone is stronger, but Wobbuffet hasn't gotten any worse this gen. Hell if he can function in Gen 4 Uber he can function in Gen 5 OU.

    He's not a fan of Volt-Turn though :D
  17. No Luck Involved

    No Luck Involved

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    Excellent thread! I'm really looking forward to the offensive calcs.
  18. Katakiri

    Katakiri ディアンシー! ディアンシー...ディアンシー!
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    Sorry about the wait on the offensive calcs. School comes before Pokemon. I'll try to get it out in the next couple days.
  19. Katakiri

    Katakiri ディアンシー! ディアンシー...ディアンシー!
    is a Pokemon Researcher

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    Alrighty! Everything has been updated and the true Top 11 counter lists have been made.

    Slowbro was able to back-up his Defensive Bulk with his Base 100 Special Attack and great coverage to come out on top.

    Lickilicky made a very surprising jump from B-Tier of the Defensive List to S-Tier of the final list. His sheer natural bulk & lack of weaknesses makes him very hard to 2HKO without Fighting-type moves while his amazing coverage options allow him to whittle away at most threats and take 50% off them with a SE coverage move like Power Whip, Ice Beam, Fire Blast, or Earthquake.

    Suicune still stands tall from the previous list as an immovable object with it's Crocune or Defensive sets while having the bulk and coverage options on any other sets to come out on top.

    Poliwrath keeps a firm grip on it's A-Tier ranking showing just how well he can hang with and take down the big boys despite his RU tiering. Great bulk, STAB Fighting moves with Ice Punch or even Waterfall makes Poliwrath a top threat to the top threats of OU.

    One last thing that took me by surprise was Granbull tying with Balloon Heatran in tiering. Intimidate is definitely not to be underestimated as it gives Granbull great artificial bulk for switching-in without losing even 40% of it's HP. With Close Combat & the Elemental Punches for coverage with great support moves, Granbull, very surprisingly, can hold it's own in OU.
  20. Tetrinity

    Tetrinity

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    Interesting... may well have to test out Poliwrath on a team some time. I don't think I've ever even seen one on the ladder before...
  21. blarajan

    blarajan i was born under the same star as shakeitup
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    This is fanfuckingtastic Katakiri. Very cool, good job.
  22. Knight of Cydonia

    Knight of Cydonia

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    Lickilicky could do with an OU analysis now.
  23. zyrefredric

    zyrefredric

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    What Lickilicky set brought him to such a high tier? I've been using him as a special wall/phazer, with Curse/Dragon Tail/Rest/Sleep Talk, but maybe I'm using it wrong?
  24. scwizard

    scwizard

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    Your omissions influence things a lot.

    Executive decisions like this is how you end up listing SlowBro as a dragonite counter, when the reality out there is that it usually isn't.

    CB outrage does 56.3% - 66.5% to slowbro, and dragonite also outspeeds it.
    Meanwhile if multiscale is up, slowbro can't OHKO. So slowbro loses head to head.

    You also have stuff like "mence as a scizor counter." I run mence, and no way am I going to switch him into bullet punch. Especially if rocks is up.

    Great thread btw. It's interesting to learn about pokemon like Shelgon and Alomomola.
  25. Tetrinity

    Tetrinity

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    CB Bullet Punch is a 4HKO with rocks against defensive Salamence after Intimidate. The same Salamence OHKOs with Flamethrower. That's the set that counters Scizor, not the offensive sets which are indeed 2HKOed after rocks and Intimidate.

    If nothing else, I run that defensive Mence, and it performs admirably against Scizor.

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