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The Type Defense of a Pokemon

Discussion in 'CAP Policy Review' started by X-Act, Jul 30, 2010.

  1. X-Act

    X-Act np: Biffy Clyro - Shock Shock
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2006
    Messages:
    4,675
    Approved by tennisace, Wyverii and Fuzznip. And sponsored by them, too, apparently.

    You would remember that at around the end of last year, I was pondering on a Typing rating for CAP. Now that I have a little bit more time in my hands, I have returned to them, and tried my hand at an offensive typing rating and a defensive typing rating. I think that I have managed to nail the latter rating, but not the former one yet, though I’ll still say something about it.

    Be prepared, then, for one longish post; typical of me, really.

    The way I had suggested the defensive rating to be calculated last December was roughly as follows. Firstly, I checked how each type fares against each and every Pokemon type, weighted by usage, and averaged this out. Then I multiplied each of these by the type chart of that Pokemon, for each type, and averaged that out also, producing the rating.

    What I’m doing now is similar, but now I’m also weighing in the fact that Earthquake is used more than, say, Brave Bird, despite the former move having worse type coverage than the latter. Not only that, but I’m now also taking into account that Ground moves typically have 100 Base Power, for example. Also, I took Stealth Rock into account when it comes to types that are weak or resistant to Rock.

    Moreover, I split the defense into two: the physical and the special. For example, the Dark/Fire type (like Houndoom) is quite bad when it comes to physical threats: it is weak to Ground, Fighting AND Rock, and these three types are easily the three most dangerous physical types. However, when it comes to special threats, it does much better, since it resists Fire and Ice and is only neutral to Electric. These three types are, as we shall see soon, the three most dangerous special types in the game. This means that a Dark/Fire type will probably fare better (defensively) against an exclusively special Pokemon than against an exclusively physical one.

    So how do we provide this assessment? Firstly, I shall present probably the most important table of all tables relating to Pokemon types. Here is the Type Power Chart:

    Code:
        Type  Physical  Special  Mixed
    -----------------------------------
         Bug      1.32     0.14   0.73
        Dark      1.89     0.09   0.99
      Dragon      1.47     0.99   1.23
    Electric      0.42     2.90   1.66
    Fighting      4.16     0.69   2.42
        Fire      0.71     3.71   2.21
      Flying      0.72     0.31   0.51
       Ghost      0.08     1.19   0.63
       Grass      0.46     1.23   0.85
      Ground      4.18     0.61   2.39
         Ice      1.06     2.22   1.64
      Normal      0.70     0.11   0.40
      Poison      0.04     0.09   0.07
     Psychic      0.14     0.72   0.43
        Rock      2.76     0.90   1.83
       Steel      1.44     0.08   0.76
       Water      1.14     2.28   1.71
    So what do the above numbers mean? Simply put, each number is how much damage each type deals on average. As we can see, the highest damage is statistically done by Physical Ground, very closely followed by Physical Fighting, and then Special Fire comes in third. The above numbers are weighted according to Pokemon usage, Pokemon types, move usage and move power... and, in addition to all this, they are also “normalized”. We shall see later what this means.

    (The numbers under the ‘Mixed’ column are just the average of the physical and special numbers.)

    Now, how do we use the above numbers? Suppose we want to find how defensive the Fire / Dark type we were considering earlier is. We first check the Fire / Dark type chart, and we find that Fire / Dark is immune to Psychic, resistant to Dark, Fire, Ghost, Grass, Ice and Steel, weak to Fighting, Ground, Rock and Water, and neutral to everything else. This translates to:

    Code:
         Bug    1
        Dark  0.5
      Dragon    1
    Electric    1
    Fighting    2
        Fire  0.5
      Flying    1
       Ghost  0.5
       Grass  0.5
      Ground    2
         Ice  0.5
      Normal    1
      Poison    1
     Psychic    0
        Rock    2
       Steel  0.5
       Water    2
    Now what we do is multiply each of these numbers by the corresponding numbers in the Type Power chart for Physical, and subtract their total from 53.33. We do the same for Special and for Mixed.

    For Physical Type Defense, we have 1.32 x 1 + 1.89 x 0.5 + 1.47 x 1 + 0.42 x 1 + 4.16 x 2 + 0.71 x 0.5 + 0.72 x 1 + 0.08 x 0.5 + 0.46 x 0.5 + 4.18 x 2 + 1.06 x 0.5 + 0.70 x 0.5 + 0.04 x 0.5 + 0.14 x 0 + 2.76 x 2 + 1.44 x 0.5 + 1.14 x 2 = 31.95. Subtracting this from 53.33 we get 21.38.

    Similarly, for Special Type Defense, we get 17.76. Subtracting from 53.33 we get 35.57.

    For Mixed Type Defense, we can just find the average of the two numbers above, instead of going through the whole routine again, getting 28.47.

    What do these numbers mean? Now we get to what it means for the numbers in the table to be “normalized”. Basically, the average Type Defense is 30, and the standard deviation of all the Type Defenses is 5. This means that we have a pretty bad Physical Type defense, a quite good Special Type defense, and a below average Mixed Type defense for a Fire / Dark Pokemon.

    These calculations are rather simple, but they quickly become tedious. Fear not, though, as I have calculated them for every type combination already for you! Here they are, in three tables: one sorted in order of best Mixed Type Defense first, the second one sorted in order of best Physical Type Defense first, and the third one sorted in order of best Special Type Defense first:

    Defensive Types, sorted by Mixed:

    Code:
                   Type  Physical  Special  Mixed
    ----------------------------------------------
           Dark / Ghost     35.66    36.64  36.15
         Ghost / Normal     34.37    37.09  35.73
       Fighting / Ghost     36.95    34.26  35.61
          Ghost / Steel     35.66    34.98  35.32
          Ghost / Water     35.51    34.73  35.12
         Flying / Steel     38.28    31.94  35.11
         Dragon / Water     31.29    38.62  34.95
         Dragon / Ghost     33.04    36.57  34.80
                  Ghost     34.21    34.72  34.46
          Grass / Water     32.24    36.59  34.42
         Ground / Water     32.16    36.67  34.42
      Electric / Flying     35.04    33.79  34.42
       Fighting / Water     34.07    34.62  34.35
      Dragon / Fighting     31.61    36.47  34.04
     Fighting / Psychic     33.31    34.38  33.84
               Fighting     32.78    34.61  33.69
      Fighting / Flying     36.72    30.65  33.69
         Dragon / Steel     28.00    39.16  33.58
       Electric / Ghost     31.32    35.76  33.54
                  Water     31.95    35.08  33.52
            Bug / Water     32.74    33.90  33.32
       Electric / Water     28.91    37.55  33.23
                 Dragon     29.48    36.93  33.20
         Poison / Water     30.84    35.45  33.15
    Electric / Fighting     30.24    35.81  33.03
          Ghost / Grass     34.13    31.88  33.01
         Ghost / Ground     33.35    32.36  32.86
        Flying / Poison     34.90    30.54  32.72
        Psychic / Water     30.80    34.38  32.59
          Steel / Water     28.92    36.06  32.49
         Bug / Fighting     33.64    31.10  32.37
           Bug / Dragon     29.92    34.82  32.37
         Flying / Water     35.18    29.52  32.35
        Dark / Fighting     28.76    35.91  32.33
         Flying / Ghost     34.70    29.96  32.33
           Fire / Grass     28.41    36.19  32.30
      Fighting / Poison     30.97    33.61  32.29
       Dragon / Psychic     28.34    36.22  32.28
         Ghost / Poison     30.46    34.07  32.26
        Psychic / Steel     30.21    34.31  32.26
        Dragon / Poison     28.03    36.37  32.20
          Dark / Poison     27.85    36.49  32.17
                 Flying     33.54    30.69  32.12
                 Poison     29.32    34.83  32.07
       Normal / Psychic     27.59    36.40  31.99
                Psychic     29.51    34.37  31.94
               Electric     27.76    36.11  31.94
      Fighting / Normal     28.70    35.11  31.91
        Flying / Ground     33.66    30.11  31.89
      Dragon / Electric     26.48    37.24  31.86
          Dark / Flying     31.93    31.63  31.78
         Normal / Water     27.87    35.58  31.73
       Fighting / Grass     31.97    31.42  31.69
         Bug / Electric     30.41    32.92  31.66
      Fighting / Ground     31.24    32.06  31.65
           Dark / Water     27.60    35.61  31.61
         Grass / Poison     31.21    31.99  31.60
        Fighting / Fire     28.24    34.93  31.59
        Flying / Normal     31.55    31.53  31.54
            Bug / Ghost     32.33    30.72  31.53
        Normal / Poison     27.32    35.67  31.49
        Dragon / Flying     31.41    31.47  31.44
           Fire / Ghost     28.30    34.58  31.44
        Dragon / Normal     25.40    37.43  31.42
       Fighting / Steel     28.72    33.92  31.32
          Dark / Dragon     25.13    37.46  31.30
          Dragon / Fire     24.71    37.84  31.27
                 Ground     29.80    32.74  31.27
                    Bug     30.85    31.42  31.14
       Electric / Grass     29.35    32.89  31.12
       Poison / Psychic     27.86    34.38  31.12
         Dark / Psychic     26.84    35.38  31.11
                 Normal     26.57    35.57  31.07
        Ghost / Psychic     29.67    32.46  31.07
     Electric / Psychic     26.62    35.41  31.01
                  Grass     29.90    32.12  31.01
                   Dark     26.30    35.60  30.95
       Flying / Psychic     32.02    29.88  30.95
                  Steel     27.66    34.15  30.91
        Ground / Poison     28.69    33.09  30.89
           Bug / Ground     31.62    30.16  30.89
           Fire / Water     26.36    35.24  30.80
           Bug / Poison     30.45    31.00  30.73
           Bug / Normal     28.85    32.26  30.56
            Ghost / Ice     29.83    31.13  30.48
             Bug / Dark     28.58    32.29  30.44
        Dragon / Ground     28.16    32.69  30.42
       Ground / Psychic     28.66    32.03  30.35
            Bug / Steel     32.94    27.73  30.34
          Fire / Flying     29.46    31.06  30.26
      Electric / Normal     23.68    36.61  30.15
           Ghost / Rock     27.72    32.54  30.13
         Ground / Steel     26.87    33.27  30.07
        Dark / Electric     23.41    36.64  30.03
                   Fire     25.06    34.97  30.02
         Dragon / Grass     27.52    32.01  29.76
          Flying / Rock     29.74    29.48  29.61
          Bug / Psychic     28.67    30.54  29.61
      Electric / Ground     26.70    32.33  29.52
        Ground / Normal     25.73    33.24  29.48
         Fire / Psychic     24.58    34.34  29.46
          Dark / Ground     25.46    33.27  29.36
        Grass / Psychic     27.44    31.28  29.36
          Grass / Steel     29.76    28.91  29.33
         Grass / Normal     25.82    32.62  29.22
          Fire / Ground     25.22    32.54  28.88
             Bug / Rock     25.68    31.91  28.79
      Electric / Poison     22.25    35.26  28.75
           Dragon / Ice     21.83    35.62  28.73
         Poison / Steel     23.84    33.61  28.72
             Bug / Fire     24.84    32.27  28.55
            Dark / Fire     21.38    35.57  28.47
         Flying / Grass     30.39    26.43  28.41
           Dark / Grass     24.24    32.51  28.37
           Grass / Rock     23.23    33.45  28.34
         Grass / Ground     28.59    27.93  28.26
          Fire / Normal     20.99    35.47  28.23
         Fighting / Ice     25.62    30.79  28.21
            Ice / Water     24.22    32.15  28.19
        Fighting / Rock     22.85    31.98  27.41
          Dragon / Rock     19.81    34.98  27.39
       Electric / Steel     20.06    34.49  27.27
           Ice / Poison     22.86    30.90  26.88
           Rock / Water     22.31    31.32  26.82
          Ice / Psychic     23.05    30.44  26.74
           Fire / Steel     18.57    34.83  26.70
         Psychic / Rock     21.30    31.93  26.61
           Ground / Ice     23.18    30.03  26.60
           Bug / Flying     27.74    25.35  26.55
        Electric / Fire     17.64    35.38  26.51
                    Ice     22.11    30.80  26.46
          Fire / Poison     19.11    33.77  26.44
          Dark / Normal     18.03    34.82  26.43
         Normal / Steel     19.39    33.37  26.38
                   Rock     20.36    32.29  26.33
           Dark / Steel     19.25    33.39  26.32
           Flying / Ice     24.86    26.97  25.91
         Electric / Ice     19.94    31.88  25.91
            Bug / Grass     27.51    23.99  25.75
          Poison / Rock     17.15    32.37  24.76
        Electric / Rock     13.83    32.69  23.26
            Grass / Ice     21.18    25.25  23.21
             Fire / Ice     14.58    31.14  22.86
           Ice / Normal     13.88    30.61  22.25
          Ground / Rock     17.90    26.42  22.16
             Dark / Ice     13.61    30.64  22.13
          Normal / Rock     12.13    32.10  22.12
            Dark / Rock     11.86    32.13  22.00
              Bug / Ice     20.92    22.88  21.90
           Rock / Steel     09.97    32.43  21.20
            Ice / Steel     16.09    25.42  20.76
            Fire / Rock     10.23    29.03  19.63
             Ice / Rock     06.59    29.10  17.84

    Defensive Types, sorted by Physical:

    Code:
                   Type  Physical  Special  Mixed
    ----------------------------------------------
         Flying / Steel     38.28    31.94  35.11
       Fighting / Ghost     36.95    34.26  35.61
      Fighting / Flying     36.72    30.65  33.69
          Ghost / Steel     35.66    34.98  35.32
           Dark / Ghost     35.66    36.64  36.15
          Ghost / Water     35.51    34.73  35.12
         Flying / Water     35.18    29.52  32.35
      Electric / Flying     35.04    33.79  34.42
        Flying / Poison     34.90    30.54  32.72
         Flying / Ghost     34.70    29.96  32.33
         Ghost / Normal     34.37    37.09  35.73
                  Ghost     34.21    34.72  34.46
          Ghost / Grass     34.13    31.88  33.01
       Fighting / Water     34.07    34.62  34.35
        Flying / Ground     33.66    30.11  31.89
         Bug / Fighting     33.64    31.10  32.37
                 Flying     33.54    30.69  32.12
         Ghost / Ground     33.35    32.36  32.86
     Fighting / Psychic     33.31    34.38  33.84
         Dragon / Ghost     33.04    36.57  34.80
            Bug / Steel     32.94    27.73  30.34
               Fighting     32.78    34.61  33.69
            Bug / Water     32.74    33.90  33.32
            Bug / Ghost     32.33    30.72  31.53
          Grass / Water     32.24    36.59  34.42
         Ground / Water     32.16    36.67  34.42
       Flying / Psychic     32.02    29.88  30.95
       Fighting / Grass     31.97    31.42  31.69
                  Water     31.95    35.08  33.52
          Dark / Flying     31.93    31.63  31.78
           Bug / Ground     31.62    30.16  30.89
      Dragon / Fighting     31.61    36.47  34.04
        Flying / Normal     31.55    31.53  31.54
        Dragon / Flying     31.41    31.47  31.44
       Electric / Ghost     31.32    35.76  33.54
         Dragon / Water     31.29    38.62  34.95
      Fighting / Ground     31.24    32.06  31.65
         Grass / Poison     31.21    31.99  31.60
      Fighting / Poison     30.97    33.61  32.29
                    Bug     30.85    31.42  31.14
         Poison / Water     30.84    35.45  33.15
        Psychic / Water     30.80    34.38  32.59
         Ghost / Poison     30.46    34.07  32.26
           Bug / Poison     30.45    31.00  30.73
         Bug / Electric     30.41    32.92  31.66
         Flying / Grass     30.39    26.43  28.41
    Electric / Fighting     30.24    35.81  33.03
        Psychic / Steel     30.21    34.31  32.26
           Bug / Dragon     29.92    34.82  32.37
                  Grass     29.90    32.12  31.01
            Ghost / Ice     29.83    31.13  30.48
                 Ground     29.80    32.74  31.27
          Grass / Steel     29.76    28.91  29.33
          Flying / Rock     29.74    29.48  29.61
        Ghost / Psychic     29.67    32.46  31.07
                Psychic     29.51    34.37  31.94
                 Dragon     29.48    36.93  33.20
          Fire / Flying     29.46    31.06  30.26
       Electric / Grass     29.35    32.89  31.12
                 Poison     29.32    34.83  32.07
          Steel / Water     28.92    36.06  32.49
       Electric / Water     28.91    37.55  33.23
           Bug / Normal     28.85    32.26  30.56
        Dark / Fighting     28.76    35.91  32.33
       Fighting / Steel     28.72    33.92  31.32
      Fighting / Normal     28.70    35.11  31.91
        Ground / Poison     28.69    33.09  30.89
          Bug / Psychic     28.67    30.54  29.61
       Ground / Psychic     28.66    32.03  30.35
         Grass / Ground     28.59    27.93  28.26
             Bug / Dark     28.58    32.29  30.44
           Fire / Grass     28.41    36.19  32.30
       Dragon / Psychic     28.34    36.22  32.28
           Fire / Ghost     28.30    34.58  31.44
        Fighting / Fire     28.24    34.93  31.59
        Dragon / Ground     28.16    32.69  30.42
        Dragon / Poison     28.03    36.37  32.20
         Dragon / Steel     28.00    39.16  33.58
         Normal / Water     27.87    35.58  31.73
       Poison / Psychic     27.86    34.38  31.12
          Dark / Poison     27.85    36.49  32.17
               Electric     27.76    36.11  31.94
           Bug / Flying     27.74    25.35  26.55
           Ghost / Rock     27.72    32.54  30.13
                  Steel     27.66    34.15  30.91
           Dark / Water     27.60    35.61  31.61
       Normal / Psychic     27.59    36.40  31.99
         Dragon / Grass     27.52    32.01  29.76
            Bug / Grass     27.51    23.99  25.75
        Grass / Psychic     27.44    31.28  29.36
        Normal / Poison     27.32    35.67  31.49
         Ground / Steel     26.87    33.27  30.07
         Dark / Psychic     26.84    35.38  31.11
      Electric / Ground     26.70    32.33  29.52
     Electric / Psychic     26.62    35.41  31.01
                 Normal     26.57    35.57  31.07
      Dragon / Electric     26.48    37.24  31.86
           Fire / Water     26.36    35.24  30.80
                   Dark     26.30    35.60  30.95
         Grass / Normal     25.82    32.62  29.22
        Ground / Normal     25.73    33.24  29.48
             Bug / Rock     25.68    31.91  28.79
         Fighting / Ice     25.62    30.79  28.21
          Dark / Ground     25.46    33.27  29.36
        Dragon / Normal     25.40    37.43  31.42
          Fire / Ground     25.22    32.54  28.88
          Dark / Dragon     25.13    37.46  31.30
                   Fire     25.06    34.97  30.02
           Flying / Ice     24.86    26.97  25.91
             Bug / Fire     24.84    32.27  28.55
          Dragon / Fire     24.71    37.84  31.27
         Fire / Psychic     24.58    34.34  29.46
           Dark / Grass     24.24    32.51  28.37
            Ice / Water     24.22    32.15  28.19
         Poison / Steel     23.84    33.61  28.72
      Electric / Normal     23.68    36.61  30.15
        Dark / Electric     23.41    36.64  30.03
           Grass / Rock     23.23    33.45  28.34
           Ground / Ice     23.18    30.03  26.60
          Ice / Psychic     23.05    30.44  26.74
           Ice / Poison     22.86    30.90  26.88
        Fighting / Rock     22.85    31.98  27.41
           Rock / Water     22.31    31.32  26.82
      Electric / Poison     22.25    35.26  28.75
                    Ice     22.11    30.80  26.46
           Dragon / Ice     21.83    35.62  28.73
            Dark / Fire     21.38    35.57  28.47
         Psychic / Rock     21.30    31.93  26.61
            Grass / Ice     21.18    25.25  23.21
          Fire / Normal     20.99    35.47  28.23
              Bug / Ice     20.92    22.88  21.90
                   Rock     20.36    32.29  26.33
       Electric / Steel     20.06    34.49  27.27
         Electric / Ice     19.94    31.88  25.91
          Dragon / Rock     19.81    34.98  27.39
         Normal / Steel     19.39    33.37  26.38
           Dark / Steel     19.25    33.39  26.32
          Fire / Poison     19.11    33.77  26.44
           Fire / Steel     18.57    34.83  26.70
          Dark / Normal     18.03    34.82  26.43
          Ground / Rock     17.90    26.42  22.16
        Electric / Fire     17.64    35.38  26.51
          Poison / Rock     17.15    32.37  24.76
            Ice / Steel     16.09    25.42  20.76
             Fire / Ice     14.58    31.14  22.86
           Ice / Normal     13.88    30.61  22.25
        Electric / Rock     13.83    32.69  23.26
             Dark / Ice     13.61    30.64  22.13
          Normal / Rock     12.13    32.10  22.12
            Dark / Rock     11.86    32.13  22.00
            Fire / Rock     10.23    29.03  19.63
           Rock / Steel     09.97    32.43  21.20
             Ice / Rock     06.59    29.10  17.84
    Defensive Types, sorted by Special:

    Code:
                   Type  Physical  Special  Mixed
    ----------------------------------------------
         Dragon / Steel     28.00    39.16  33.58
         Dragon / Water     31.29    38.62  34.95
          Dragon / Fire     24.71    37.84  31.27
       Electric / Water     28.91    37.55  33.23
          Dark / Dragon     25.13    37.46  31.30
        Dragon / Normal     25.40    37.43  31.42
      Dragon / Electric     26.48    37.24  31.86
         Ghost / Normal     34.37    37.09  35.73
                 Dragon     29.48    36.93  33.20
         Ground / Water     32.16    36.67  34.42
        Dark / Electric     23.41    36.64  30.03
           Dark / Ghost     35.66    36.64  36.15
      Electric / Normal     23.68    36.61  30.15
          Grass / Water     32.24    36.59  34.42
         Dragon / Ghost     33.04    36.57  34.80
          Dark / Poison     27.85    36.49  32.17
      Dragon / Fighting     31.61    36.47  34.04
       Normal / Psychic     27.59    36.40  31.99
        Dragon / Poison     28.03    36.37  32.20
       Dragon / Psychic     28.34    36.22  32.28
           Fire / Grass     28.41    36.19  32.30
               Electric     27.76    36.11  31.94
          Steel / Water     28.92    36.06  32.49
        Dark / Fighting     28.76    35.91  32.33
    Electric / Fighting     30.24    35.81  33.03
       Electric / Ghost     31.32    35.76  33.54
        Normal / Poison     27.32    35.67  31.49
           Dragon / Ice     21.83    35.62  28.73
           Dark / Water     27.60    35.61  31.61
                   Dark     26.30    35.60  30.95
         Normal / Water     27.87    35.58  31.73
                 Normal     26.57    35.57  31.07
            Dark / Fire     21.38    35.57  28.47
          Fire / Normal     20.99    35.47  28.23
         Poison / Water     30.84    35.45  33.15
     Electric / Psychic     26.62    35.41  31.01
        Electric / Fire     17.64    35.38  26.51
         Dark / Psychic     26.84    35.38  31.11
      Electric / Poison     22.25    35.26  28.75
           Fire / Water     26.36    35.24  30.80
      Fighting / Normal     28.70    35.11  31.91
                  Water     31.95    35.08  33.52
          Ghost / Steel     35.66    34.98  35.32
          Dragon / Rock     19.81    34.98  27.39
                   Fire     25.06    34.97  30.02
        Fighting / Fire     28.24    34.93  31.59
           Fire / Steel     18.57    34.83  26.70
                 Poison     29.32    34.83  32.07
           Bug / Dragon     29.92    34.82  32.37
          Dark / Normal     18.03    34.82  26.43
          Ghost / Water     35.51    34.73  35.12
                  Ghost     34.21    34.72  34.46
       Fighting / Water     34.07    34.62  34.35
               Fighting     32.78    34.61  33.69
           Fire / Ghost     28.30    34.58  31.44
       Electric / Steel     20.06    34.49  27.27
     Fighting / Psychic     33.31    34.38  33.84
        Psychic / Water     30.80    34.38  32.59
       Poison / Psychic     27.86    34.38  31.12
                Psychic     29.51    34.37  31.94
         Fire / Psychic     24.58    34.34  29.46
        Psychic / Steel     30.21    34.31  32.26
       Fighting / Ghost     36.95    34.26  35.61
                  Steel     27.66    34.15  30.91
         Ghost / Poison     30.46    34.07  32.26
       Fighting / Steel     28.72    33.92  31.32
            Bug / Water     32.74    33.90  33.32
      Electric / Flying     35.04    33.79  34.42
          Fire / Poison     19.11    33.77  26.44
      Fighting / Poison     30.97    33.61  32.29
         Poison / Steel     23.84    33.61  28.72
           Grass / Rock     23.23    33.45  28.34
           Dark / Steel     19.25    33.39  26.32
         Normal / Steel     19.39    33.37  26.38
         Ground / Steel     26.87    33.27  30.07
          Dark / Ground     25.46    33.27  29.36
        Ground / Normal     25.73    33.24  29.48
        Ground / Poison     28.69    33.09  30.89
         Bug / Electric     30.41    32.92  31.66
       Electric / Grass     29.35    32.89  31.12
                 Ground     29.80    32.74  31.27
        Dragon / Ground     28.16    32.69  30.42
        Electric / Rock     13.83    32.69  23.26
         Grass / Normal     25.82    32.62  29.22
           Ghost / Rock     27.72    32.54  30.13
          Fire / Ground     25.22    32.54  28.88
           Dark / Grass     24.24    32.51  28.37
        Ghost / Psychic     29.67    32.46  31.07
           Rock / Steel     09.97    32.43  21.20
          Poison / Rock     17.15    32.37  24.76
         Ghost / Ground     33.35    32.36  32.86
      Electric / Ground     26.70    32.33  29.52
             Bug / Dark     28.58    32.29  30.44
                   Rock     20.36    32.29  26.33
             Bug / Fire     24.84    32.27  28.55
           Bug / Normal     28.85    32.26  30.56
            Ice / Water     24.22    32.15  28.19
            Dark / Rock     11.86    32.13  22.00
                  Grass     29.90    32.12  31.01
          Normal / Rock     12.13    32.10  22.12
      Fighting / Ground     31.24    32.06  31.65
       Ground / Psychic     28.66    32.03  30.35
         Dragon / Grass     27.52    32.01  29.76
         Grass / Poison     31.21    31.99  31.60
        Fighting / Rock     22.85    31.98  27.41
         Flying / Steel     38.28    31.94  35.11
         Psychic / Rock     21.30    31.93  26.61
             Bug / Rock     25.68    31.91  28.79
         Electric / Ice     19.94    31.88  25.91
          Ghost / Grass     34.13    31.88  33.01
          Dark / Flying     31.93    31.63  31.78
        Flying / Normal     31.55    31.53  31.54
        Dragon / Flying     31.41    31.47  31.44
       Fighting / Grass     31.97    31.42  31.69
                    Bug     30.85    31.42  31.14
           Rock / Water     22.31    31.32  26.82
        Grass / Psychic     27.44    31.28  29.36
             Fire / Ice     14.58    31.14  22.86
            Ghost / Ice     29.83    31.13  30.48
         Bug / Fighting     33.64    31.10  32.37
          Fire / Flying     29.46    31.06  30.26
           Bug / Poison     30.45    31.00  30.73
           Ice / Poison     22.86    30.90  26.88
                    Ice     22.11    30.80  26.46
         Fighting / Ice     25.62    30.79  28.21
            Bug / Ghost     32.33    30.72  31.53
                 Flying     33.54    30.69  32.12
      Fighting / Flying     36.72    30.65  33.69
             Dark / Ice     13.61    30.64  22.13
           Ice / Normal     13.88    30.61  22.25
          Bug / Psychic     28.67    30.54  29.61
        Flying / Poison     34.90    30.54  32.72
          Ice / Psychic     23.05    30.44  26.74
           Bug / Ground     31.62    30.16  30.89
        Flying / Ground     33.66    30.11  31.89
           Ground / Ice     23.18    30.03  26.60
         Flying / Ghost     34.70    29.96  32.33
       Flying / Psychic     32.02    29.88  30.95
         Flying / Water     35.18    29.52  32.35
          Flying / Rock     29.74    29.48  29.61
             Ice / Rock     06.59    29.10  17.84
            Fire / Rock     10.23    29.03  19.63
          Grass / Steel     29.76    28.91  29.33
         Grass / Ground     28.59    27.93  28.26
            Bug / Steel     32.94    27.73  30.34
           Flying / Ice     24.86    26.97  25.91
         Flying / Grass     30.39    26.43  28.41
          Ground / Rock     17.90    26.42  22.16
            Ice / Steel     16.09    25.42  20.76
           Bug / Flying     27.74    25.35  26.55
            Grass / Ice     21.18    25.25  23.21
            Bug / Grass     27.51    23.99  25.75
              Bug / Ice     20.92    22.88  21.90
    So now you don’t need to use the first table I presented to check out how the type fares defensively... all numbers are readily calculated in the above three tables.

    The first table can be used to incorporate a few abilities in these calculations as well, however. For example, in our previous Houndoom example, Houndoom has the ability Flash Fire, with which it becomes immune to Fire moves. Hence, its Type Defense is slightly higher than that listed in the table for Fire / Dark. To fix this, we could do it by hand again and replace ‘Fire 0.5’ by ‘Fire 0’ in our type effectiveness chart, but this is tedious. It would be better to just take the ready-made value for Fire / Dark, and add ‘something’ to it so that Flash Fire is taken care of.

    Here is a small table containing a few abilities, and what to do to ‘fix’ the Defensive Rating to conform with the ability:

    Code:
                    Ability                            Physical                             Special                               Mixed
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                   Levitate                  + (4.18xGround TE)                  + (0.61xGround TE)                  + (2.39xGround TE)
                 Flash Fire                    + (0.71xFire TE)                    + (3.71xFire TE)                    + (2.21xFire TE)
                   Dry Skin  + (1.14xWater TE) - (0.18xFire TE)  + (2.28xWater TE) - (0.93xFire TE)  + (1.71xWater TE) - (0.55xFire TE)
               Water Absorb                   + (1.14xWater TE)                   + (2.28xWater TE)                   + (1.71xWater TE)
                  Thick Fat    + (0.53xIce TE) + (0.36xFire TE)    + (1.11xIce TE) + (1.85xFire TE)    + (0.82xIce TE) + (1.11xFire TE)
    Motor Drive/Volt Absorb                + (0.42xElectric TE)                + (2.90xElectric TE)                + (1.66xElectric TE)
                  Heatproof                    + (0.36xFire TE)                    + (1.85xFire TE)                    + (1.11xFire TE)
          Solid Rock/Filter       + (0.25xPTPxTE) for each TE>1       + (0.25xSTPxTE) for each TE>1       + (0.25xMTPxTE) for each TE>1
               Wonder Guard            + (PTPxTE) for each TE<2            + (STPxTE) for each TE<2            + (MTPxTE) for each TE<2
    Intimidate (not switch)                + 17.78 - (0.33xPTD)                      Stays the same                + 8.89 - (0.167xPTD)
    TE here means ‘Type Effectiveness’ and PTD is the original Physical Type Defense. So, for our Flash Fire Houndoom example, Houndoom is already resistant to Fire even without Flash Fire, so Fire TE = 0.5. Hence we have:

    Physical Type Defense: 21.38 + 0.71 x 0.5 = 21.735

    Special Type Defense: 35.57 + 3.71 x 0.5 = 37.425

    Mixed Type Defense: 28.47 + 2.21 x 0.5 = 29.575 (or we could have again found the average of Physical Type Defense and Special Type Defense)

    Interestingly, if you try Dark / Ghost with Wonder Guard, you should get the value 53.33 for all three of Physical, Special and Mixed Type Defenses. Try it out. This number 53.33 is the absolute maximum number that a type combination defense can reach, which corresponds to being immune to all types (as Wonder Guard Spiritomb would be!).

    Unsurprisingly, we could also incorporate this Type Defense with the Physical and Special Tankiness in the Base Stats Ratings:

    Code:
    Typed Physical Tankiness = (2.5045 * Physical Tankiness) / (53.33 - Physical Type Defense)
    Typed Special Tankiness = (2.5045 * Special Tankiness) / (53.33 - Special Type Defense)
    I’ve yet to do this thoroughly, though, so I’ll just leave you with these formulae for now.

    Finally, a small word on Type Offense is in order. I have actually tried to do this as well, before realising that it doesn’t make sense, as I have suspected for a long time. Something that could work, though, is not Type Offense, but Movepool Offense. Basically I combine the movepool and typing of a Pokemon to rate the Pokemon’s movepool and type offense. This could then be combined with Physical and Special Sweepiness, much like the fact that Type Defense can be combined with Tankiness. Having a list of Very Good Moves and Competitive Moves helps a great deal to be able to create such a rating, so I might tackle that in the not-so-distant future.

    I told you it was going to be a looooong post. :) I'm sure that I haven't explained everything completely thoroughly, so feel free to ask any questions or... (gasp) point out mistakes!
  2. Zystral

    Zystral めんどくさい、な~
    is a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

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    I like the idea behind this, just a few points;

    This number has near, if not perfect positive correlation with the Pokemons' BSR - specifically their Tankiness ratings, correct?
    In which case, opening up your BSR Calculator to somehow mesh these values into the stats to give some sort of "Overall Defensiveness" might be a really good idea.
    I'm nowhere near as learned as you in mathematics, but something could work.

    And the discussion in IRC is as follows as I type this.

    Show Hide
    [21:44:40] <Rising_Dusk> Where the hell does the number 53.333 come from.
    [21:44:46] <Rising_Dusk> It's just some arbitrary maximum.
    [21:44:51] <Rising_Dusk> Why didn't he pick 100?
    [21:44:53] <Zy> its Wondertomb
    [21:44:56] <Zy> being immune to everything
    [21:45:00] <Rising_Dusk> He must use the standard system for measurement.
    [21:45:03] <Zy> Because he took the original raw numbers
    [21:45:05] <Zy> from the usage stats
    [21:45:09] <Rising_Dusk> Duh, but his numbers are entirely arbitrary.
    [21:45:10] <LouisCyphre> yeah
    [21:45:11] <Zy> So it's not like we can work backwords
    [21:45:15] <Rising_Dusk> That 53.33 could be 100.
    [21:45:24] <Rising_Dusk> And you can normalize the same way to have the same effect.
    [21:45:27] <Zy> yeah but then you'd skewer the original table
    [21:45:30] <Zy> example
    [21:45:31] <Zy> " Ice 1.06 2.22 1.64"
    [21:45:36] <Zy> those numbers
    [21:45:39] <Zy> would be entirely different
    [21:45:42] <LouisCyphre> You could multiply everything by
    [21:45:46] <Rising_Dusk> Yes, but have the same effect....
    [21:45:46] <Zy> if the arbitary maxima were 100
    [21:45:53] <Rising_Dusk> Because the normalization factors the 53.33. :/
    [21:45:55] <Zy> you have to remember
    [21:45:56] <Aquamariner> Someone needs to make a Kukem sprite now
    [21:45:56] <LouisCyphre> 1.8750000117187500732421879577637
    [21:45:59] <Zy> he calculated from the original numbers
    [21:46:03] <LouisCyphre> but that's stupid
    [21:46:06] <Zy> as opposed to calculating back from the arbittary maximum
    [21:46:06] <Aquamariner> There is a fairly large chance that Kukem wins now
    [21:46:09] <Zy> It's not like
    [21:46:15] <Zy> "oh I'll make 100 the maximum"
    [21:46:21] <Zy> "let's work out damage each type deals on average"
    [21:46:22] <Zy> it's
    [21:46:30] <Zy> "how much do these types deal? let#s work out the maximum"
    [21:46:34] <LouisCyphre> It's not like "oh man all these decimals are going to give Dusk a seizure"
    [21:46:45] <Rising_Dusk> Zy, I hope you know that you're rambling is incorrect.
    [21:46:49] <Zy> I support anything that may give Dusk a seizure.
    [21:46:54] <Zy> How is it incorrect?
    [21:46:54] <Rising_Dusk> By virtue of making these stats, he can scale anything however he wants.
    [21:46:57] <Zy> (and it's not rambling)
    [21:46:59] <Rising_Dusk> Lol.
    [21:47:01] <LouisCyphre> your*
    [21:47:06] <Zy> No you don't get it
    [21:47:11] <Zy> He has generated these numbers
    [21:47:12] <Rising_Dusk> No, I don't think you do.
    [21:47:15] <Zy> through virtue of stats alone
    [21:47:17] <Zy> usage stats
    [21:47:21] <LouisCyphre> He didn't make the usage stats from the server
    [21:47:22] <Zy> And so he's worked with these numbers
    [21:47:29] <Rising_Dusk> Yes, and I could do the same thing and scale to a 100 maximum.
    [21:47:35] <Zy> but what's the point?
    [21:47:36] <Rising_Dusk> The weight here is what matters, so scaling is irrelevant.
    [21:47:38] <LouisCyphre> By multiplying by
    [21:47:40] <LouisCyphre> 1.8750000117187500732421879577637
    [21:47:42] <Rising_Dusk> A logical maximum?
    [21:47:45] <LouisCyphre> sure, he can.
    [21:47:50] <Rising_Dusk> Why do we use the metric system for units?
    [21:47:53] <Rising_Dusk> Logical units.
    [21:47:54] <Rising_Dusk> Base 10.
    [21:47:55] <Zy> a logical maximum is irrelevant
    [21:48:00] <Zy> when we're working in such extreme decimals
    [21:48:03] <Rising_Dusk> It is entirely relevant.
    [21:48:12] <Zy> I don't see a need
    [21:48:19] <Rising_Dusk> One of the reasons BSR makes no bloody sense to 99% of people is how arbitrary every standard deviation is and so forth.
    [21:48:20] <Zy> It just adds an extra stage of working that's completely superficial


    For aesthetics reasons, you could scale it so the arbitary maximum was 100 but your main numbers (all the TE and PTDs) are already irrational numbers anyway, so I personally fail to see a point.
  3. toshimelonhead

    toshimelonhead Raising Whitney's Miltank

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    So the new CAP 11 would be:

    Physical 28.76 + (.42*1)= 29.18
    Special 35.91 + (2.9*1)= 38.81
    Mixed 32.33 + (1.66*1)= 33.99

    Current BSR without factoring in Typing

    PS: 153 (R6: Very Good)
    PT: 132 (R5: Good)
    SS: 193 (R7: Excellent)
    ST: 131 (R5: Good)
    BSR: 337 (R6: Very Good)
    BST: 550

    Typed Physical Tankiness: (2.5045*132)/(53.33-29.18) or 13.689
    Typed Special Tankiness: (2.5045*131)/(53.33-38.81) or 22.595
    Typed Mixed Tankiness: 18.142 (average of the two)

    For a better idea of what this means, I'll compare this to Rotom-A, which has similar PT and ST (125 each compared to CAP 11's 132/131, respectively).

    Rotom-A's Type Tankiness stats

    Physical: 31.32 + 8.36 = 39.72
    Special: 35.76 + 1.22 = 36.88
    Mixed: (39.72+36.88)/2 = 38.30

    Typed Physical Tankiness: (2.5045*125)/(53.33-39.72) = 23.002
    Typed Special Tankiness: (2.5045*125)/(53.33-36.88) = 19.031
    Typed Mixed Tankiness: average of the two or 21.0165

    So basically Rotom-A has better defenses because of its typing over CAP 11 just by typing alone?
  4. LouisCyphre

    LouisCyphre heralds disaster.

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    Rotom has to contend with Shadow Ball and Crunch weaknesses. CAP11 has to deal with Close Combat and Brave Bird. I'd say that's probably it.

    (If that is what's going on here then good job, X-Act)
  5. Chateau

    Chateau

    Joined:
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    Of course not. If every Pokemon had the exact same defensive stats then this number would accurately define how defensive they are, but they don't, so it doesn't.
  6. LouisCyphre

    LouisCyphre heralds disaster.

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    Actually, Rotom-A's typing gives it the edge, considering its very similar defensive stats to CAP11. Which is what X-Act developed this for, most likely - showing the effect of typing on bulkiness.
  7. Chateau

    Chateau

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    Right. A higher Type Defense Rating makes for a better defensive Pokemon. I was saying that Rotom-A isn't better defensively on typing alone. It has the stats to back it up.
  8. Quilph

    Quilph

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    What's remarkable is how influential the "big three" of the physical and special areas are (fighting, rock, ground and fire, ice, electric respectively) on determining what a good typing is. For example, the highest defensive types incorporate flying and ghost because those two types sport an immunity to one of the physical three, which are important because of their very high type power, from the first chart. The same is true of dragon on the special end, resisting two of the three special powerful types. Incorporating abilities is also essential, since with Rotom Levitate gives it a crucial ground immunity. This was a very fascinating set of data. Good work!
  9. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

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    I genuinely disapprove of Zy quoting me in IRC as he was the target of my frustration, not the OP of this topic, which might be misinterpreted from a read-over of that log.

    Anyway, the OP is a neat idea and a very cool thought-process. I strongly suggest that the value for the "perfect immune to everything Pokemon" be made 100. If this were done, people could look at the output number (100% in the case of WonderTomb) and immediately understand just how much of the metagame is dealt with by a given Type Defense. This shifts your lovely mean and SD values, which I presume you spend a lot of time calibrating, but I think it is an acceptable sacrifice for the end result making more sense to the general crowd.

    Just my two cents, anyway. Good stuff overall.
  10. Lord Jesseus

    Lord Jesseus

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    Oh wow. It's beautiful. :D
    Using the varied usage and power of moves is very clever (and would take a while to do wouldn't it?), but since that's the case wouldn't that mean these values are only valid as long as the usage of moves in the metagame remains static? It's not a huge problem but I just thought it might be worth mentioning to ensure that when using these numbers people keep in mind that changes may affect the accuracy of these stats.
  11. petrie911

    petrie911

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    Neat stuff. It's hardly surprising to see Fire, Fighting, and Ground at the top of the list for dealing damage (what type is weak to all 3...?).

    Still, though, on a philosophical ground, I noticed you used usage statistics in this. I thought these sorts of ratings were supposed to be independent of usage. For example, the speed rating in the BSR calculation is just the fraction of Pokemon who underspeed you. Unless the formula for that changed to when you revamped BSR, IIRC it doesn't take usage into account.

    Also, could the formula account for the fact that Volt Absorb (and other similar abilities) heal you? After all, you're not just immune; you actually take negative damage.
  12. Anachronism

    Anachronism

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    Hmm. Apparently Skarmory has the best defensive typing in the metagame. Cool.
  13. X-Act

    X-Act np: Biffy Clyro - Shock Shock
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus

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    <Rising_Dusk> By virtue of making these stats, he can scale anything however he wants.

    Exactly. The original numbers calculated weren't like that at all. For one thing, they were such that a SMALLER number meant a better defense, not as they are now. So that shows that I can indeed scale it however I (or we) want, and I can make it so that 100 is the maximum. But bear with me a second.

    <Rising_Dusk> One of the reasons BSR makes no bloody sense to 99% of people is how arbitrary every standard deviation is and so forth.

    Are they? I thought having an average of 200 and a standard deviation of 100 is not arbitrary, but they are rounded numbers. If anything, that's the fault with BSR 1.0, and that's why I corrected that fault. Now the numbers, for BSR 2.0, are not arbitrary at all. I don't understand your point, frankly. If you have a BSR of 200, that Pokemon's stats are spot on average. More than 300 and it's pretty good, less than 100 and it's pretty bad. Okay, I could have made it so that the average is 500 instead of 200, or whatever, but whatever I choose, it would be arbitrary, wouldn't it? Please tell me what is your irk exactly with the BSR numbers being arbitrary, as that was something I wanted to fix (and did fix) in ver. 2.0.

    Anyway, the point is that I wanted to scale the average Type Defense to be exactly 30 and the standard deviation to be exactly 5. That means that a Type Defense of 30 is spot on average, one that is more than 35 is pretty good, and one that is less than 25 is pretty bad. Again, I could scale that differently, and I'll try to scale it so that 100 is the maximum. If I do that, then I'm sure that the average and/or standard deviation would be decimals, though. I'll try to make it at least so that only the standard deviation is a decimal, but I can't guarantee it. But, my point is, whatever scale you choose, it is arbitrary at the end of the day.

    Having whole numbers for the average and standard deviation makes us reason better about stuff, though. Why would I want something having an average of 74.329 and a standard deviation of 7.823, say, just to make the maximum 100? That would be even more confusing. So now 74.329 is spot on average, more than 74.329 + 7.823 is pretty good and less than 74.329 - 7.823 is pretty bad. If that is confusing, then thank you... that's what I tried to avoid!

    EDIT: I've just managed to find a scale of Type Defense that has an average of 72 and a standard deviation of 6, that has a maximum value of 99.99939, which, when rounded to two decimal places, is the 100 you're asking for. Shall I convert the scale to this one?
  14. X-Act

    X-Act np: Biffy Clyro - Shock Shock
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    I did mention something about this right about at the end of the original post. I can post an updated Typed Physical Tankiness and Typed Special Tankiness charts soon.

    Yes, but the game's moves are not arbitrary, but have a set move power. It's useless to make Fighting and Ghost on equal footing when everybody knows that Fighting moves have usually a higher base power. So I added that. The fact that I added usages of Pokemon too is that everyone keeps telling that CAP Pokemon influence the OU metagame, and hence the moves and Pokemon used should be taken from statistics deriving from that metagame.

    I could fix that for BSR if you want.

    I don't think I can; however I'll try.

    Skarmory has the best defensive PHYSICAL typing of the metagame, yes. (Though have you checked Levitate Bronzong?) However, its typing isn't all that good when it comes to tank Special moves. But you know this already. :)
  15. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
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    4,806
    I specifically said in my post that I wanted you to avoid quoting the IRC log because it may have come in a wrong tone. Anyway, since you have, I will address it in turn.

    BSR would make a lot more sense to users on a scale of 1 to 255. Imagine if a Pokemon with 255 HP and 255 Defense had a 255 Physical Tankiness. Imagine if a 255 HP and 255 Special Defense Pokemon had a 255 Special Tankiness. Imagine, again, if a 255 Attack and a 255 Speed Pokemon had 255 Physical Sweepiness. You see where I'm going with this. These numbers would align perfectly with the minimums and maximums of stats as they appear "naturally" when made by Gamefreak. Granted, I understand that because of Speed Factors and how they are derived from the metagame, you get a more maxwellian distribution because more Pokemon tend to be situated toward the middle of the Speed range (0-255). Still, if the scaling 0-255 were used for BSR, people could see that a Pokemon with 160 BSR in something means that the Pokemon is immensely good, much like a Pokemon with 160 in any given stat. This would result in the layman having a much easier time grasping BSR at large. That's my only real "point" in having brought up BSR at all during that IRC conversation.
    Are you a statistician? That would explain a lot. People in my field and experience as a math (calc-based)/physics teacher do not look at the mean and standard distributions as the end-all-be-all. Having a mean of 30 and a SD of 5 is cool, but that doesn't help the average person grasp the concept better. However, having minimum and maximum values that result in common and well-understood ranges helps magnitudes. Again, I recognize that the nature of the frequency of Pokemon distributions doesn't situate the maxwellian right at the center of the range, but that's OK. 0-100 as a range is so valuable for the basic understanding of the idea, I feel, that it merits using despite that centering issue. (As I suspected, the mean and SD of a 0-100 range is higher - you explain it as 72/6, respectively)

    I think converting the OP to that range would be great, and I'm perfectly willing to accept 99.99939 as ~100 for purposes of this. Cheers.
  16. X-Act

    X-Act np: Biffy Clyro - Shock Shock
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus

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    Well, you are assuming that 255 should be the highest number because GameFreak decided that. And GameFreak's decision was probably forced. GameBoy systems were 8-bit at the time of Pokemon Red/Blue/Yellow, and these systems were slow, so the programmers had to save space, and hence they decided to allocate just one byte for each base stat (of which there were, remember, only 5 at that time). Hence 255 was the highest number attainable for base stats, and this trend continued to this day.

    I think that if I forced BSR to have a 255 rating for a 255/255/255/255/255/255 Pokemon, all ratings would be so bunched together that it would be pretty bad. I'm sure that the ratings would probably be in the range of around 50 to 120, with probably more than a hundred Pokemon being in the range 70 to 90. This would not be practical at all. Of course, most Pokemon base stats ARE actually between 70 and 90, but is that really a good thing?

    And this is the problem, really, with your suggestion: Pokemon stats are not distributed evenly; there are many average Pokemon and a few great (and horrible) ones. Thus, I'd rather take extra care for the many average Pokemon and spread them out well than care for the maximum (and minimum) stats. So I'd rather say "hey, 200 is average, over 300 are pretty good and below 100 are pretty bad" than say "255 is the maximum".

    Also, I can argue that 255 is as arbitrary a choice as any other number. Really, someone else could have told me "but why didn't you make BSR to hit 1000 for the maximum?" Some other person would have chosen, I don't know, 100. In the 3 and a half years that I've been in Smogon, I've learned one thing very well: whatever you decide arbitrarily, you can never please everyone. :)

    With that out of the way, let me work on the new ratings. But please, I don't want somebody else telling me "But X-Act, wouldn't it have been better for the maximum value to be <insert number here> instead of 100?"
  17. X-Act

    X-Act np: Biffy Clyro - Shock Shock
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    4,675
    Okay, instead of editing the original post, I'd rather post the new tables here. It would take more to edit the original post than to just post the new numbers.

    So here they are. The maximum Type Defense is now 100, their mean is 65, and their standard deviation is 7.5 (instead of 72/6). I think these numbers are better, though I'm sure you people don't mind seeing as the maximum value is still 100.

    New Type Power Chart:

    Code:
        Type  Physical  Special  Mixed
    -----------------------------------
         Bug      1.97     0.21   1.09
        Dark      2.84     0.13   1.48
      Dragon      2.21     1.49   1.85
    Electric      0.63     4.35   2.49
    Fighting      6.23     1.03   3.63
        Fire      1.07     5.56   3.32
      Flying      1.08     0.46   0.77
       Ghost      0.12     1.78   0.95
       Grass      0.69     1.85   1.27
      Ground      6.26     0.91   3.59
         Ice      1.60     3.33   2.46
      Normal      1.05     0.16   0.61
      Poison      0.06     0.14   0.10
     Psychic      0.21     1.08   0.64
        Rock      4.14     1.35   2.75
       Steel      2.16     0.13   1.14
       Water      1.71     3.42   2.57
    New Type Defense table, sorted by mixed:

    Code:
                   Type  Physical  Special  Mixed
    ----------------------------------------------
           Dark / Ghost     73.49    74.96  74.22
         Ghost / Normal     71.55    75.63  73.59
       Fighting / Ghost     75.43    71.40  73.41
          Ghost / Steel     73.50    72.47  72.98
          Ghost / Water     73.26    72.09  72.67
         Flying / Steel     77.42    67.91  72.66
         Dragon / Water     66.93    77.93  72.43
         Dragon / Ghost     69.56    74.86  72.21
                  Ghost     71.31    72.08  71.69
          Grass / Water     68.36    74.89  71.62
         Ground / Water     68.24    75.00  71.62
      Electric / Flying     72.56    70.68  71.62
       Fighting / Water     71.11    71.94  71.52
      Dragon / Fighting     67.41    74.70  71.06
     Fighting / Psychic     69.96    71.57  70.76
               Fighting     69.16    71.92  70.54
      Fighting / Flying     75.08    65.97  70.53
         Dragon / Steel     62.00    78.74  70.37
       Electric / Ghost     66.98    73.63  70.30
                  Water     67.92    72.63  70.27
            Bug / Water     69.10    70.85  69.98
       Electric / Water     63.36    76.33  69.85
                 Dragon     64.22    75.39  69.81
         Poison / Water     66.27    73.18  69.72
    Electric / Fighting     65.37    73.71  69.54
          Ghost / Grass     71.20    67.82  69.51
         Ghost / Ground     70.03    68.54  69.28
        Flying / Poison     72.36    65.81  69.08
        Psychic / Water     66.21    71.56  68.89
          Steel / Water     63.38    74.09  68.73
         Bug / Fighting     70.47    66.66  68.56
           Bug / Dragon     64.89    72.23  68.56
         Flying / Water     72.78    64.29  68.53
        Dark / Fighting     63.13    73.86  68.50
         Flying / Ghost     72.04    64.93  68.49
           Fire / Grass     62.61    74.28  68.45
      Fighting / Poison     66.46    70.42  68.44
       Dragon / Psychic     62.51    74.33  68.42
         Ghost / Poison     65.69    71.10  68.39
        Psychic / Steel     65.31    71.47  68.39
        Dragon / Poison     62.05    74.56  68.30
          Dark / Poison     61.77    74.73  68.25
                 Flying     70.32    66.04  68.18
                 Poison     63.97    72.24  68.11
       Normal / Psychic     61.38    74.59  67.99
                Psychic     64.26    71.55  67.90
               Electric     61.64    74.17  67.90
      Fighting / Normal     63.05    72.67  67.86
        Flying / Ground     70.49    65.17  67.83
      Dragon / Electric     59.73    75.86  67.80
          Dark / Flying     67.90    67.45  67.68
         Normal / Water     61.80    73.37  67.59
       Fighting / Grass     67.95    67.14  67.54
         Bug / Electric     65.61    69.38  67.50
      Fighting / Ground     66.86    68.08  67.47
           Dark / Water     61.40    73.42  67.41
         Grass / Poison     66.82    67.98  67.40
        Fighting / Fire     62.37    72.39  67.38
        Flying / Normal     67.32    67.30  67.31
            Bug / Ghost     68.50    66.08  67.29
        Normal / Poison     60.98    73.50  67.24
        Dragon / Flying     67.11    67.21  67.16
           Fire / Ghost     62.44    71.87  67.16
        Dragon / Normal     58.10    76.14  67.12
       Fighting / Steel     63.09    70.88  66.99
          Dark / Dragon     57.70    76.19  66.94
          Dragon / Fire     57.06    76.76  66.91
                 Ground     64.70    69.11  66.91
                    Bug     66.28    67.13  66.71
       Electric / Grass     64.02    69.34  66.68
       Poison / Psychic     61.79    71.56  66.68
         Dark / Psychic     60.26    73.07  66.66
                 Normal     59.86    73.36  66.61
        Ghost / Psychic     64.51    68.69  66.60
     Electric / Psychic     59.92    73.11  66.52
                  Grass     64.85    68.18  66.51
                   Dark     59.45    73.40  66.43
       Flying / Psychic     68.03    64.82  66.43
                  Steel     61.49    71.23  66.36
        Ground / Poison     63.03    69.63  66.33
           Bug / Ground     67.42    65.24  66.33
           Fire / Water     59.54    72.86  66.20
           Bug / Poison     65.68    66.50  66.09
           Bug / Normal     63.28    68.40  65.84
            Ghost / Ice     64.74    66.70  65.72
             Bug / Dark     62.88    68.44  65.66
        Dragon / Ground     62.24    69.03  65.63
       Ground / Psychic     62.99    68.05  65.52
            Bug / Steel     69.41    61.60  65.51
          Fire / Flying     64.20    66.59  65.39
      Electric / Normal     55.52    74.92  65.22
           Ghost / Rock     61.57    68.81  65.19
         Ground / Steel     60.30    69.91  65.11
        Dark / Electric     55.12    74.96  65.04
                   Fire     57.60    72.46  65.03
         Dragon / Grass     61.27    68.01  64.64
          Flying / Rock     64.61    64.21  64.41
          Bug / Psychic     63.01    65.81  64.41
      Electric / Ground     60.05    68.50  64.27
        Ground / Normal     58.59    69.86  64.22
         Fire / Psychic     56.87    71.50  64.19
          Dark / Ground     58.18    69.91  64.04
        Grass / Psychic     61.16    66.91  64.04
          Grass / Steel     64.63    63.37  64.00
         Grass / Normal     58.73    68.93  63.83
          Fire / Ground     57.83    68.80  63.32
             Bug / Rock     58.51    67.86  63.19
      Electric / Poison     53.37    72.89  63.13
           Dragon / Ice     52.75    73.43  63.09
         Poison / Steel     55.76    70.41  63.08
             Bug / Fire     57.26    68.40  62.83
            Dark / Fire     52.07    73.36  62.71
         Flying / Grass     65.59    59.64  62.62
           Dark / Grass     56.35    68.77  62.56
           Grass / Rock     54.85    70.18  62.52
         Grass / Ground     62.89    61.89  62.39
          Fire / Normal     51.48    73.21  62.35
         Fighting / Ice     58.43    66.19  62.31
            Ice / Water     56.33    68.23  62.28
        Fighting / Rock     54.27    67.97  61.12
          Dragon / Rock     49.72    72.46  61.09
       Electric / Steel     50.08    71.73  60.91
           Ice / Poison     54.29    66.35  60.32
           Rock / Water     53.47    66.98  60.22
          Ice / Psychic     54.57    65.66  60.11
           Fire / Steel     47.85    72.25  60.05
         Psychic / Rock     51.94    67.89  59.92
           Ground / Ice     54.77    65.04  59.91
           Bug / Flying     61.62    58.03  59.82
        Electric / Fire     46.46    73.07  59.77
                    Ice     53.17    66.20  59.68
          Fire / Poison     48.67    70.66  59.67
          Dark / Normal     47.05    72.23  59.64
         Normal / Steel     49.08    70.06  59.57
                   Rock     50.54    68.44  59.49
           Dark / Steel     48.88    70.08  59.48
           Flying / Ice     57.29    60.45  58.87
         Electric / Ice     49.91    67.82  58.87
            Bug / Grass     61.27    55.99  58.63
          Poison / Rock     45.73    68.56  57.14
        Electric / Rock     40.75    69.03  54.89
            Grass / Ice     51.77    57.87  54.82
             Fire / Ice     41.87    66.71  54.29
           Ice / Normal     40.82    65.92  53.37
          Ground / Rock     46.86    59.63  53.24
             Dark / Ice     40.42    65.96  53.19
          Normal / Rock     38.19    68.15  53.17
            Dark / Rock     37.79    68.20  52.99
              Bug / Ice     51.38    54.32  52.85
           Rock / Steel     34.96    68.65  51.81
            Ice / Steel     44.13    58.13  51.13
            Fire / Rock     35.35    63.55  49.45
             Ice / Rock     29.88    63.65  46.77
    New Type Defense table, sorted by physical:

    Code:
                   Type  Physical  Special  Mixed
    ----------------------------------------------
         Flying / Steel     77.42    67.91  72.66
       Fighting / Ghost     75.43    71.40  73.41
      Fighting / Flying     75.08    65.97  70.53
          Ghost / Steel     73.50    72.47  72.98
           Dark / Ghost     73.49    74.96  74.22
          Ghost / Water     73.26    72.09  72.67
         Flying / Water     72.78    64.29  68.53
      Electric / Flying     72.56    70.68  71.62
        Flying / Poison     72.36    65.81  69.08
         Flying / Ghost     72.04    64.93  68.49
         Ghost / Normal     71.55    75.63  73.59
                  Ghost     71.31    72.08  71.69
          Ghost / Grass     71.20    67.82  69.51
       Fighting / Water     71.11    71.94  71.52
        Flying / Ground     70.49    65.17  67.83
         Bug / Fighting     70.47    66.66  68.56
                 Flying     70.32    66.04  68.18
         Ghost / Ground     70.03    68.54  69.28
     Fighting / Psychic     69.96    71.57  70.76
         Dragon / Ghost     69.56    74.86  72.21
            Bug / Steel     69.41    61.60  65.51
               Fighting     69.16    71.92  70.54
            Bug / Water     69.10    70.85  69.98
            Bug / Ghost     68.50    66.08  67.29
          Grass / Water     68.36    74.89  71.62
         Ground / Water     68.24    75.00  71.62
       Flying / Psychic     68.03    64.82  66.43
       Fighting / Grass     67.95    67.14  67.54
                  Water     67.92    72.63  70.27
          Dark / Flying     67.90    67.45  67.68
           Bug / Ground     67.42    65.24  66.33
      Dragon / Fighting     67.41    74.70  71.06
        Flying / Normal     67.32    67.30  67.31
        Dragon / Flying     67.11    67.21  67.16
       Electric / Ghost     66.98    73.63  70.30
         Dragon / Water     66.93    77.93  72.43
      Fighting / Ground     66.86    68.08  67.47
         Grass / Poison     66.82    67.98  67.40
      Fighting / Poison     66.46    70.42  68.44
                    Bug     66.28    67.13  66.71
         Poison / Water     66.27    73.18  69.72
        Psychic / Water     66.21    71.56  68.89
         Ghost / Poison     65.69    71.10  68.39
           Bug / Poison     65.68    66.50  66.09
         Bug / Electric     65.61    69.38  67.50
         Flying / Grass     65.59    59.64  62.62
    Electric / Fighting     65.37    73.71  69.54
        Psychic / Steel     65.31    71.47  68.39
           Bug / Dragon     64.89    72.23  68.56
                  Grass     64.85    68.18  66.51
            Ghost / Ice     64.74    66.70  65.72
                 Ground     64.70    69.11  66.91
          Grass / Steel     64.63    63.37  64.00
          Flying / Rock     64.61    64.21  64.41
        Ghost / Psychic     64.51    68.69  66.60
                Psychic     64.26    71.55  67.90
                 Dragon     64.22    75.39  69.81
          Fire / Flying     64.20    66.59  65.39
       Electric / Grass     64.02    69.34  66.68
                 Poison     63.97    72.24  68.11
          Steel / Water     63.38    74.09  68.73
       Electric / Water     63.36    76.33  69.85
           Bug / Normal     63.28    68.40  65.84
        Dark / Fighting     63.13    73.86  68.50
       Fighting / Steel     63.09    70.88  66.99
      Fighting / Normal     63.05    72.67  67.86
        Ground / Poison     63.03    69.63  66.33
          Bug / Psychic     63.01    65.81  64.41
       Ground / Psychic     62.99    68.05  65.52
         Grass / Ground     62.89    61.89  62.39
             Bug / Dark     62.88    68.44  65.66
           Fire / Grass     62.61    74.28  68.45
       Dragon / Psychic     62.51    74.33  68.42
           Fire / Ghost     62.44    71.87  67.16
        Fighting / Fire     62.37    72.39  67.38
        Dragon / Ground     62.24    69.03  65.63
        Dragon / Poison     62.05    74.56  68.30
         Dragon / Steel     62.00    78.74  70.37
         Normal / Water     61.80    73.37  67.59
       Poison / Psychic     61.79    71.56  66.68
          Dark / Poison     61.77    74.73  68.25
               Electric     61.64    74.17  67.90
           Bug / Flying     61.62    58.03  59.82
           Ghost / Rock     61.57    68.81  65.19
                  Steel     61.49    71.23  66.36
           Dark / Water     61.40    73.42  67.41
       Normal / Psychic     61.38    74.59  67.99
         Dragon / Grass     61.27    68.01  64.64
            Bug / Grass     61.27    55.99  58.63
        Grass / Psychic     61.16    66.91  64.04
        Normal / Poison     60.98    73.50  67.24
         Ground / Steel     60.30    69.91  65.11
         Dark / Psychic     60.26    73.07  66.66
      Electric / Ground     60.05    68.50  64.27
     Electric / Psychic     59.92    73.11  66.52
                 Normal     59.86    73.36  66.61
      Dragon / Electric     59.73    75.86  67.80
           Fire / Water     59.54    72.86  66.20
                   Dark     59.45    73.40  66.43
         Grass / Normal     58.73    68.93  63.83
        Ground / Normal     58.59    69.86  64.22
             Bug / Rock     58.51    67.86  63.19
         Fighting / Ice     58.43    66.19  62.31
          Dark / Ground     58.18    69.91  64.04
        Dragon / Normal     58.10    76.14  67.12
          Fire / Ground     57.83    68.80  63.32
          Dark / Dragon     57.70    76.19  66.94
                   Fire     57.60    72.46  65.03
           Flying / Ice     57.29    60.45  58.87
             Bug / Fire     57.26    68.40  62.83
          Dragon / Fire     57.06    76.76  66.91
         Fire / Psychic     56.87    71.50  64.19
           Dark / Grass     56.35    68.77  62.56
            Ice / Water     56.33    68.23  62.28
         Poison / Steel     55.76    70.41  63.08
      Electric / Normal     55.52    74.92  65.22
        Dark / Electric     55.12    74.96  65.04
           Grass / Rock     54.85    70.18  62.52
           Ground / Ice     54.77    65.04  59.91
          Ice / Psychic     54.57    65.66  60.11
           Ice / Poison     54.29    66.35  60.32
        Fighting / Rock     54.27    67.97  61.12
           Rock / Water     53.47    66.98  60.22
      Electric / Poison     53.37    72.89  63.13
                    Ice     53.17    66.20  59.68
           Dragon / Ice     52.75    73.43  63.09
            Dark / Fire     52.07    73.36  62.71
         Psychic / Rock     51.94    67.89  59.92
            Grass / Ice     51.77    57.87  54.82
          Fire / Normal     51.48    73.21  62.35
              Bug / Ice     51.38    54.32  52.85
                   Rock     50.54    68.44  59.49
       Electric / Steel     50.08    71.73  60.91
         Electric / Ice     49.91    67.82  58.87
          Dragon / Rock     49.72    72.46  61.09
         Normal / Steel     49.08    70.06  59.57
           Dark / Steel     48.88    70.08  59.48
          Fire / Poison     48.67    70.66  59.67
           Fire / Steel     47.85    72.25  60.05
          Dark / Normal     47.05    72.23  59.64
          Ground / Rock     46.86    59.63  53.24
        Electric / Fire     46.46    73.07  59.77
          Poison / Rock     45.73    68.56  57.14
            Ice / Steel     44.13    58.13  51.13
             Fire / Ice     41.87    66.71  54.29
           Ice / Normal     40.82    65.92  53.37
        Electric / Rock     40.75    69.03  54.89
             Dark / Ice     40.42    65.96  53.19
          Normal / Rock     38.19    68.15  53.17
            Dark / Rock     37.79    68.20  52.99
            Fire / Rock     35.35    63.55  49.45
           Rock / Steel     34.96    68.65  51.81
             Ice / Rock     29.88    63.65  46.77
    New Type Defense table, sorted by special:

    Code:
                   Type  Physical  Special  Mixed
    ----------------------------------------------
         Dragon / Steel     62.00    78.74  70.37
         Dragon / Water     66.93    77.93  72.43
          Dragon / Fire     57.06    76.76  66.91
       Electric / Water     63.36    76.33  69.85
          Dark / Dragon     57.70    76.19  66.94
        Dragon / Normal     58.10    76.14  67.12
      Dragon / Electric     59.73    75.86  67.80
         Ghost / Normal     71.55    75.63  73.59
                 Dragon     64.22    75.39  69.81
         Ground / Water     68.24    75.00  71.62
        Dark / Electric     55.12    74.96  65.04
           Dark / Ghost     73.49    74.96  74.22
      Electric / Normal     55.52    74.92  65.22
          Grass / Water     68.36    74.89  71.62
         Dragon / Ghost     69.56    74.86  72.21
          Dark / Poison     61.77    74.73  68.25
      Dragon / Fighting     67.41    74.70  71.06
       Normal / Psychic     61.38    74.59  67.99
        Dragon / Poison     62.05    74.56  68.30
       Dragon / Psychic     62.51    74.33  68.42
           Fire / Grass     62.61    74.28  68.45
               Electric     61.64    74.17  67.90
          Steel / Water     63.38    74.09  68.73
        Dark / Fighting     63.13    73.86  68.50
    Electric / Fighting     65.37    73.71  69.54
       Electric / Ghost     66.98    73.63  70.30
        Normal / Poison     60.98    73.50  67.24
           Dragon / Ice     52.75    73.43  63.09
           Dark / Water     61.40    73.42  67.41
                   Dark     59.45    73.40  66.43
         Normal / Water     61.80    73.37  67.59
                 Normal     59.86    73.36  66.61
            Dark / Fire     52.07    73.36  62.71
          Fire / Normal     51.48    73.21  62.35
         Poison / Water     66.27    73.18  69.72
     Electric / Psychic     59.92    73.11  66.52
        Electric / Fire     46.46    73.07  59.77
         Dark / Psychic     60.26    73.07  66.66
      Electric / Poison     53.37    72.89  63.13
           Fire / Water     59.54    72.86  66.20
      Fighting / Normal     63.05    72.67  67.86
                  Water     67.92    72.63  70.27
          Ghost / Steel     73.50    72.47  72.98
          Dragon / Rock     49.72    72.46  61.09
                   Fire     57.60    72.46  65.03
        Fighting / Fire     62.37    72.39  67.38
           Fire / Steel     47.85    72.25  60.05
                 Poison     63.97    72.24  68.11
           Bug / Dragon     64.89    72.23  68.56
          Dark / Normal     47.05    72.23  59.64
          Ghost / Water     73.26    72.09  72.67
                  Ghost     71.31    72.08  71.69
       Fighting / Water     71.11    71.94  71.52
               Fighting     69.16    71.92  70.54
           Fire / Ghost     62.44    71.87  67.16
       Electric / Steel     50.08    71.73  60.91
     Fighting / Psychic     69.96    71.57  70.76
        Psychic / Water     66.21    71.56  68.89
       Poison / Psychic     61.79    71.56  66.68
                Psychic     64.26    71.55  67.90
         Fire / Psychic     56.87    71.50  64.19
        Psychic / Steel     65.31    71.47  68.39
       Fighting / Ghost     75.43    71.40  73.41
                  Steel     61.49    71.23  66.36
         Ghost / Poison     65.69    71.10  68.39
       Fighting / Steel     63.09    70.88  66.99
            Bug / Water     69.10    70.85  69.98
      Electric / Flying     72.56    70.68  71.62
          Fire / Poison     48.67    70.66  59.67
      Fighting / Poison     66.46    70.42  68.44
         Poison / Steel     55.76    70.41  63.08
           Grass / Rock     54.85    70.18  62.52
           Dark / Steel     48.88    70.08  59.48
         Normal / Steel     49.08    70.06  59.57
         Ground / Steel     60.30    69.91  65.11
          Dark / Ground     58.18    69.91  64.04
        Ground / Normal     58.59    69.86  64.22
        Ground / Poison     63.03    69.63  66.33
         Bug / Electric     65.61    69.38  67.50
       Electric / Grass     64.02    69.34  66.68
                 Ground     64.70    69.11  66.91
        Dragon / Ground     62.24    69.03  65.63
        Electric / Rock     40.75    69.03  54.89
         Grass / Normal     58.73    68.93  63.83
           Ghost / Rock     61.57    68.81  65.19
          Fire / Ground     57.83    68.80  63.32
           Dark / Grass     56.35    68.77  62.56
        Ghost / Psychic     64.51    68.69  66.60
           Rock / Steel     34.96    68.65  51.81
          Poison / Rock     45.73    68.56  57.14
         Ghost / Ground     70.03    68.54  69.28
      Electric / Ground     60.05    68.50  64.27
             Bug / Dark     62.88    68.44  65.66
                   Rock     50.54    68.44  59.49
             Bug / Fire     57.26    68.40  62.83
           Bug / Normal     63.28    68.40  65.84
            Ice / Water     56.33    68.23  62.28
            Dark / Rock     37.79    68.20  52.99
                  Grass     64.85    68.18  66.51
          Normal / Rock     38.19    68.15  53.17
      Fighting / Ground     66.86    68.08  67.47
       Ground / Psychic     62.99    68.05  65.52
         Dragon / Grass     61.27    68.01  64.64
         Grass / Poison     66.82    67.98  67.40
        Fighting / Rock     54.27    67.97  61.12
         Flying / Steel     77.42    67.91  72.66
         Psychic / Rock     51.94    67.89  59.92
             Bug / Rock     58.51    67.86  63.19
         Electric / Ice     49.91    67.82  58.87
          Ghost / Grass     71.20    67.82  69.51
          Dark / Flying     67.90    67.45  67.68
        Flying / Normal     67.32    67.30  67.31
        Dragon / Flying     67.11    67.21  67.16
       Fighting / Grass     67.95    67.14  67.54
                    Bug     66.28    67.13  66.71
           Rock / Water     53.47    66.98  60.22
        Grass / Psychic     61.16    66.91  64.04
             Fire / Ice     41.87    66.71  54.29
            Ghost / Ice     64.74    66.70  65.72
         Bug / Fighting     70.47    66.66  68.56
          Fire / Flying     64.20    66.59  65.39
           Bug / Poison     65.68    66.50  66.09
           Ice / Poison     54.29    66.35  60.32
                    Ice     53.17    66.20  59.68
         Fighting / Ice     58.43    66.19  62.31
            Bug / Ghost     68.50    66.08  67.29
                 Flying     70.32    66.04  68.18
      Fighting / Flying     75.08    65.97  70.53
             Dark / Ice     40.42    65.96  53.19
           Ice / Normal     40.82    65.92  53.37
          Bug / Psychic     63.01    65.81  64.41
        Flying / Poison     72.36    65.81  69.08
          Ice / Psychic     54.57    65.66  60.11
           Bug / Ground     67.42    65.24  66.33
        Flying / Ground     70.49    65.17  67.83
           Ground / Ice     54.77    65.04  59.91
         Flying / Ghost     72.04    64.93  68.49
       Flying / Psychic     68.03    64.82  66.43
         Flying / Water     72.78    64.29  68.53
          Flying / Rock     64.61    64.21  64.41
             Ice / Rock     29.88    63.65  46.77
            Fire / Rock     35.35    63.55  49.45
          Grass / Steel     64.63    63.37  64.00
         Grass / Ground     62.89    61.89  62.39
            Bug / Steel     69.41    61.60  65.51
           Flying / Ice     57.29    60.45  58.87
         Flying / Grass     65.59    59.64  62.62
          Ground / Rock     46.86    59.63  53.24
            Ice / Steel     44.13    58.13  51.13
           Bug / Flying     61.62    58.03  59.82
            Grass / Ice     51.77    57.87  54.82
            Bug / Grass     61.27    55.99  58.63
              Bug / Ice     51.38    54.32  52.85
    New 'what to do if you have ability so-and-so' table:

    Code:
                    Ability                              Physical                               Special                                 Mixed
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                   Levitate                    + (6.26xGround TE)                    + (0.91xGround TE)                    + (3.59xGround TE)
                 Flash Fire                      + (1.07xFire TE)                      + (5.56xFire TE)                      + (3.32xFire TE)
                   Dry Skin    + (1.71xWater TE) - (0.27xFire TE)    + (3.42xWater TE) - (1.39xFire TE)    + (2.57xWater TE) - (0.83xFire TE)
               Water Absorb                     + (1.71xWater TE)                     + (3.42xWater TE)                     + (2.57xWater TE)
                  Thick Fat      + (0.80xIce TE) + (0.53xFire TE)      + (1.66xIce TE) + (2.78xFire TE)      + (1.23xIce TE) + (1.66xFire TE)
    Motor Drive/Volt Absorb                  + (0.63xElectric TE)                  + (4.35xElectric TE)                  + (2.49xElectric TE)
                  Heatproof                      + (0.53xFire TE)                      + (2.78xFire TE)                      + (1.66xFire TE)
          Solid Rock/Filter         + (0.25xPTPxTE) for each TE>1         + (0.25xSTPxTE) for each TE>1         + (0.25xMTPxTE) for each TE>1
               Wonder Guard              + (PTPxTE) for each TE<2              + (STPxTE) for each TE<2              + (MTPxTE) for each TE<2
    Intimidate (not switch)                  + 33.33 - (0.33xPTD)                        Stays the same                 + 16.67 - (0.167xPTD)
  18. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

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    I am well-aware of this fact. Still, that this number is the number it ended up being makes it a number we are familiar with. You sure could argue that 255 is as arbitrary a limit as any, but it is inherently less arbitrary because it is a number we have been familiar with for 4 generations through Pokemon stats, the principle basis for BSR in the first place.

    I also mentioned in my previous post that yes, there is an uneven distribution of Pokemon stats. There are few amazing and few horrible Pokemon, but that's OK. Every competitive Pokemon player on this website knows the difference between 130 base Attack and 125. They know because they can associate the 'effectiveness' of this attack stat in conjunction with the Speed stat with the ability to sweep. This, fundamentally, is what BSR is based on. If you asked a random user what a "400 overall BSR" meant to them, they'd probably guess "good" or something. To be honest, after posing that, I actually had to check the BSR table to find out that it is Excellent. There's no baseline for the understanding of the BSR, which is my point. Sure, any number we pick is arbitrary, but an arbitrary limit that results in an understandable range - now that's the one that we should favor.

    I understand that you're not interested in redoing all of those things for BSR, which is fine. I didn't even want to have this conversation because, quite frankly, I knew this would be a hopeless battle even if my point had worlds of merit. (I specifically asked you to ignore Zy's log, I'm still very angry that he posted it) It's simply "too late" to change, since people have accustomed themselves to what we currently have.

    --

    By the way, the new range reveals a lot of cool things; I'm glad you went for it. For instance, it is interesting to note that Ice/Rock's mixed type defense is less than half of the possible range (which I hadn't noticed before). It is also interesting to note that the best mixed defenses, the ones that reach well over 70/100, rely more on mass neutralities and uncommon weaknesses than raw resistances/immunities. (Granted, Ghost is among nearly all of the top 10 typings for mixed, suggesting that immunities play an enormous role - especially given the physical offensiveness of the Fighting-type)
  19. X-Act

    X-Act np: Biffy Clyro - Shock Shock
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus

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    It's all about familiarity. If I asked a person who has never played Pokemon competitively "is 130 Base Speed fast or slow?" he wouldn't know how to answer. A person who has never heard about BSR wouldn't have a clue about what is good or not; even a good Pokemon battler wouldn't know.

    So, to ease that problem, I say: 200 is the average value, and 100 is the standard deviation. That means that BSR is now split up nicely into ranges of 100:

    0-100 -> bad
    100-200 -> below average
    200-300 -> above average
    300-400 -> great
    400-500 -> excellent
    etc.

    Those ranges are automatically true when I tell you "200 is the average value, and 100 is the standard deviation". You don't have to look up the applet to know what 400 means.

    Of course, not every Smogon member knows about Chebyshev's inequality and other statistical stuff, and that is why I explained it.

    Now I don't want to talk about BSR anymore in this thread.
  20. Chris Pepps

    Chris Pepps

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    Just a small point. You missed lightning rod from the table of modifications needed for abilities. Sap sipper is also missing although this could be due to this being a gen 4 tool.
    BTW... Someone with a f*** load of time on their hands does need to incorporate this into the BSR tool at http://users.smogon.com/X-Act/BaseStatsRatings.html.
  21. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

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    Nice bump, haha. I forgot about this thread and when I saw X-Act's name, I was like oh shit.

    He hasn't logged in for a while, so nothing much can be done about the tables here. As for the updating of which you mentioned, it's not on priority, but anyone who takes the initiative can work on it, I'm sure.
  22. Chris Pepps

    Chris Pepps

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  23. Joeyboy

    Joeyboy Check out my Youtube channel! JoeyboyGames!
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnus
    Mentor

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    This is awesome, very very cool. Funny to see how true it is. Skarm having the best physical tanking type and being one of the best physical tanks :) Rotom-W having a great defensive typing. I dunno its just amazing I'm just flabbergasted. Awesome
  24. Tortferngatr

    Tortferngatr

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    Keep in mind this is before gen v.

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