The Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Now Taking Write-Ups)

Giratina-O (Uber RestTalk Shuffler) Horn Leech 20.87 - 24.85%
Giratina (Uber Boosting Tank) Nature Power 32.8 - 38.76% Horn Leech 18.68 - 21.86%
Skarmory (Uber Support) Double-Edge 47.6 - 55.98% Horn Leech 14.97 - 17.36%
Forretress (Uber Support) Nature Power 54.23 - 64.12% Double-Edge 49.15 - 57.9%
Arceus-Ghost (Uber Support) Horn Leech 56.3 - 66.21% Nature Power 49.77 - 58.55%
Ferrothorn (Uber Support) Nature Power 58.23 - 68.75% Double-Edge 52.27 - 61.64%
Arceus-Normal (Uber Wallceus (Physical Wall)) Double-Edge 66.66 - 78.37% Horn Leech 42.11 - 49.54%
Arceus-Poison (Uber Support) Nature Power 74.32 - 87.83% Double-Edge 66.66 - 78.37%
Arceus-Fighting (Uber Utility Counter) Double-Edge 75.9 - 89.63% Horn Leech 47.52 - 56.3%
I would like to nominate sawsbuck for C rank, above are all ubers that can always beat him with stealth rocks on the field. And a lot of those sets aren't even common, such as arceus poison and wallceus. I am aware that in between extremespeed and how incredibly hard it is to swords dance that swasbuck is not reliable in the slighest, but being able to bust open latias and ho-oh is really helpful. Personally I have used him with wobbuffet and swept other teams a few times. Swords dance could also be skipped for jump kick, primarily hitting ferrothorn but I like swords dance. He is the best chlorophyll sweeper except for maybe shiftry if you ask me, but as usual support is neccesary. I used him with wobbuffet, groudon, forretress, arceus-Water, giratina-o. He could also be pretty antsun on rain teams scaring out groudon and sweeping. Another mon I would like to be investigated is primeape, vital spirit, U-turn, and punishment make him somewhat useful.
 
Nature Power does not hit much, only getting superior coverage on Jirachi, Metagross, Arceus-Poison (all of which are rare) and Giratina (which you're never getting past unless it switches in on a critical hit Nature Power at +2). Jump Kick, however, OHKOes Ferrothorn and 2HKOes Skarmory, preventing them from hazarding all over or paralyzing you. It also hits the uncommon Air Balloon Magnezone (lol), while allowing you to OHKO the pink blobs without taking one million HP of recoil, something Nature Power can't do.
and we have sleep absorbers, plus heracross > primeape coz it resists dark pulse + focus blast and has sleep talk, while OHKOing with any move with Guts activated and you can opt for Moxie too.
 
Yeah, jump kick is definitely superior to nature power because of all the reasons that lousy918 said. In terms of countering darkrai, there are better pokemon than primeape (heracross and spdef ogre come to mind). Primeape's only niche over them is the ability to tie with rayquaza after a DD, but there are better checks for rayquaza, too. Also, punishment isn't that big of an asset as most of the things it hits (Cm ghostceuas and latias) can still live a hit and then kill primeape.

After 1 CM:
252 Atk Primeape Punishment (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Ghost: 36.48 - 43.24%
252 Atk Primeape Punishment (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 56.59 - 67.03%

After 2 CMs:
252 Atk Primeape Punishment (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Ghost: 50.9 - 59.9%
252 Atk Primeape Punishment (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias:79.12 - 93.4%

+2/+2 Latias is the only one is even comes close to checking. Primeape is not really good in ubers.
 

Go10

Storm Vanguard !
I would like to add Hippowdon for the B rank, some people already mentionned it and I think he really deserve it (hell, even Charizard is on the list).

Also, I really dont understand why Skarmory and Excadrill are B rank, I can kind of understand since their weakness are common and all, but their resistances, typing and staying power are incredibly useful and bring a lot for the team. Skarm can wall shit all the day (and i'm not talking about random sweeper like Skymin, but things like double dance groudon (or offensive one without FP), SDceus, Terrakion and the list goes on); Exca can act as a spinner without leaving the momentum wide open, check some threat for balanced team (AO Ti@s without Surf, Dialga under rain etc) or be a sweeper with Sand Rush. I dont know your opinions, but I think they are way too useful for being B rank deserve the A rank (at least for Skarm, we can debate about Exca).
 
I agree Skarm (as well as Forry) should be moved up to A rank. (Made a post about it on the last page for more details)

Excadrill, although very effective, I feel ends up in the about same situation as Terrakion. For the most part, it just fulfills a certain niche which is Spinning. It's true that it can also function as a sweeper/cleaner on Sand teams as well but the same can be said for Kabutops who is also in B rank. It's a great Pokemon and a solid team choice but it isn't as commonplace as many other A rank Pokemon and only find their place on certain types of teams. It's a very good B rank mon, but B rank nonetheless.
 
forry i can agree with, but im not so sure about skarm
consider the tier's common physical atkers: ek arceus, groudon, ho oh, zekrom, exca, terrak, tops, ray
the sad thing is he just isnt suited to the uber environment
ho-oh, zekrom, tops and ray can all 2hko (which is all that really matters because of sturdy)
even terrak, groudon and ek arceus can beat it with more uncommon sets (choice band, fire punch/overheat, overheat respectively)
which the only thing he can pretty much always tank is excadril
the problem is exca can spin on it if u attempt to set any hazards and u can do nothing back
the fact that zekrom is the only choice user just makes the situation even worse, so he cant switch in on a predicted move
sure having a solid ek arceus counter that can spike with reliable recovery is good, but it really isnt a class material
 

Go10

Storm Vanguard !
@puregenius : if you think Skarm isn't suited for the Uber environnement, then you are clearly missing in experience. The fact that Skarm was extremely strong in DPP, where the metagame was far more offensive than the BW one, show how effective he can be in the right hand. Of course, he isn't like Ferrothorn, you can't just switch in without guessing what's the opponent's going to use. Melee mewtwo already explained why skarm deserve to be upranked :

Skarmory: The first major advantage that jumps out about this Pokemon is its access to the infamous Spikes. As a tier where hazards are the most dominant factor adding a second level that the game is fought over, being able to setup Spikes in Ubers instantly makes a Pokemon more viable as few teams go without this crucial hazard. With solid defensive stats, a excellent defensive typing as well as instant recovery, Skarmory is an effective and reliable defensive Spike setter. Sturdy with Stealth Rock, Taunt and Whirlwind also makes it a possible suicide lead for Offensive teams looking to get multiple layers down early.

Skarmory isn't just a solid Spike setter, it is also a effective wall and a great choice for a Stall team. Again, its good defensive stats and amazing typing lets it serve as an outright counter to the infamous Ekiller (screw Overheat) as well as a passable check to CM Ghostceus, two S rank Pokemon. It also serves as an excellent check/counter to every SD Arceus form lacking certain rare coverage choices, Genesect lacking Thunder/Flamethrower (Flame doesn't work under rain), Physical variants of Giratina-O, most defensive Latias variants, any Landorus-T set, tank/defensive Ho-Oh under Rain, any Groudon lacking a fire attack, Excadrill, Gliscor (good Gliscor run Taunt) and just about any physical threat lacking Bolt Strike or a strong Fire attack outside of Rain. It doesn't stop there, that Steel/Flying typing means that Skarmory is immune to all forms of Spikes while remaining neutral to SR. Having Taunt and Whirlwind top it off as a premier wall by allowing it to phaze out threats and rack up hazards damage as well as shut down any other defensive Spike setters (not named faster Taunt Skarmory). To sum it up, as a wall Skarmory doesn't have any risks involved or annoying downsides. (I wish its bulk was even better, though)
I just want to add that Skarm help a lot in both defensive and offensive team thanks to his typing allowing some easy pivoting.

@MM : Let me ask you something, do you have some issue when building with Excadrill ? No, he is so useful that you just pick him without a second though like you would when adding Palkia to solve a Kyogre weakness. He's in the same boat as Skarm (well not really, there is some good and bad side, but if you have to ask me, then I think he's less good).
 
Yes, he's a great pick I agree. It's just that it's more like a Terrakion than a Palkia. Unlike Palkia, it doesn't have a typing that allows it to counter a S rank threat. It doesn't have multiple viable sets that allows it to work beautifully on any team. Excadrill can only fit on Sand teams as an offensive sweeper reliant on the weather or on Rain teams as a bulky Spinner. He's not versatile and flexible enough for A rank status. If Kabutops, who is almost the exact same thing just for Rain teams, is only a B rank there's no need to promote Excadrill.
 
alright well i probably worded that badly
anything that can reliably counter ek arceus and provide spikes at the same time obviously has its place in ubers
i just feel his description better suits b rank material

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outclassed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.
it cant stop a lot of the physical atkers, but it can properly wall ek arceus, while providing spikes and serving as a secondary counter to some other stuff (ie his defensive niche)
he is set up bait for dangerous mons and more often than not ur going to be playing a dangerous guessing game
dd/sd ray, sub hc zekrom, sub ho oh and sd blaziken can all force u out, while setting up themselves
if u choose to stay in, u risk being koed
 

polop

Would you look at the time?
is a Contributor Alumnus
I actually agree with puregenius when he says Skarmory is probably better off in B rank. Skarmory does manage to wall some things, but really its walling capabilities are extremely limited. That and its not a counter, its a check. It needs Toxic to actually kill of last mon extremekiller, and with that you run into a weird four moveslot syndrome. Spikes or SR / Whirlwind / Roost / Taunt or Toxic or Brave Bird (lets you beat Gliscor).

I get it has some good qualities. Its a decent physical wall, that typing is nice for beating Extremekiller, its the only Spiker to get Roost and Whirlwind and Taunt. Resistance to Dragon-type attacks make using Spikes really easy, and since it can wall certain Arceus forms (some Support Arceus (like Grass) and Swords Dance versions) it does have some time to use Spikes. Its decent Special Defense lets it take advantage of helpless Dragons that have used Draco Meteor (and thus can't really touch Skarmory) or even those that lock themselves into a weak Dragon-type move via Choice Scarf. Taking advantage of Dragon's locked into Outrage and phazing them out is something that only Skarmory can do (well that and Steel Arceus but it doesn't get Spikes).

It does have its fare share of flaws though Extremekiller Arceus / any physical attacker really can bypass Skarmory if it runs Overheat or some fire-type special move (although I will agree almost no one runs this on Arceus anymore, and rain can help neuter the effects). Most physical attackers can run through it since a good portion of them are mixed (pointing specifically to Rayquaza here), those that aren't mixed can still bypass it. Groudon can use Swords Dance and 2HKO with Stone Edge or OHKO with Fire Punch (works without Swords Dance too if in sun). Swords Dance Groudon with Life Orb can even OHKO Skarmory if it switches into SR twice (although the chances of the OHKO are not extremely high). Swords Dance Rock Arceus can OHKO with +2 Stone Edge after Stealth Rock, Excadrill can't OHKO or 2HKO it, but it can setup Swords Dances on it and Rapid Spin attempts at it trying to setup Spikes, Kabutops can use Waterfall and OHKO it, offensive physical variants of Giratina-O can Dragon Tail it out and keep it out by spamming that move which accumulates residual damage (but really most will OHKO you with Thunder or HP Fire since that's the most common variant).

Now generally with that being said, I'd be fine with it being A rank. One thing though, in my opinion, pushes it to B rank. Skarmory is not part ghost, nor does it boast much offensive presence which makes it something that can freely be Rapid Spun on (see Forretress / Tentacruel / Excadrill / Kabutops) or setup on (Whirlwind can only go so far to stopping mons, it'll come down to whether or not you predict that Rayquaza will fry Skarmory with Fire Blast or go for the Dragon Dance). Not only does this greatly hinder its walling capabilities, this perfectly matches one of the descriptions for B rank.

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outclassed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.
Really Skarm is a fine mon, but its that one flaw that pushes it into B rank. In fact the lack of offensive pressure actually makes Skarm feel a bit out of place in extremely Hyper Offensive teams (it works fine in Bulky Offense and Balanced though (the exception to this is a Skarm abusing Custap Berry but Forry does that better for the most part)).
 
Although it's true that Taunt >>> Toxic on Skarmory, it can still run it and remain effective. However, Stall teams hardly need to go that far as hazards and status are everywhere so it'll be very rare (and some amazing play on the part of the opponent) that a Skarmory is up against a last mon Ekiller that isn't crippled in some way.

I also don't see how only getting 2HKO'd by a +2 mon with 150 base attack (SD Groudon) is supposed to be a flaw. As for Mixed Tina-O, I'm not sure what is used on the ladder but that set has dropped in viability with the intro of BW whereas sets taking advantage of Dragon Tail are generally more effective. Skarmory may not be able to switch into DTails forever but nothing can claim to do so, Skarmory is still the one who is going to take the least damage due to Spikes immunity and resist + bulk. Mixed physical attackers that beat Skarm aren't really THAT common. The big two are Zekrom (doesn't need it) and Ray (only safe switch-in is a bulky Arc form) even things like Tyranitar are either too slow to take advantage of a 2HKO (It's easy to Roost stall til a miss), have to rely on perfect prediction (Thunder Sect are kinda uncommonish and a mispredict with him can be very costly) or just simply can't break Skarm as Rain and/or his SpDef investment stops the coverage move that was slapped on the set. Other than that, SD Rockceus is fairly rare (seems a shame to rely on a 80% acc STAB and throw out the best possible Ho-Oh counter) and Excadrill can't spin forever if it has LO (while Skarm will gladly spam Spikes if Exca decides to be stubborn).

Skarm has access to Spikes AND Taunt AND phazing, that's a long list on utilities on one mon with instant recovery, and amazing typing and respectable defenses. Just because it can't spin block doesn't mean it is any less of an amazing wall, that's just simply not the role it is for. I also find it silly to say something with Taunt and Whirlwind is easy setup fodder. In the Rayquaza example, it has to somehow predict the Roost/Spikes and come in then (giving a free turn for the latter isn't a good thing) as a Taunt will prevent any setup as well as a Whirlwind (except that also racks up damage on a SR weak mon). Even if Ray does manage to come in, it still has to predict as much as Skarm, if not more. If it sets up as Skarm phazes, it not only wasted a move but it now will lose an extra 25%. If it decides to outright attack it has to try to predict which move to use as a V-Create/Fire Blast on a resist will result in heavy stat drops/free turn (uninvested Fire Blast is weak when it's not SE) whereas deciding to Outrage/DClaw while Skarm stays in gives it a free turn to do whatever and racks up some more LO damage.

Don't just think about Physical attackers, that typing (it really is incredible in Ubers) and standard SpDef investment goes a far way in allowing it to come in on some special attackers.

176+ Atk Ho-Oh Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Skarmory in rain: 116-138 (34.73 - 41.31%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Shaymin-S Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Skarmory: 57-68 (17.06 - 20.35%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock

4 SpA Soul Dew Latias Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Skarmory: 78-92 (23.35 - 27.54%) -- possible 4HKO after Stealth Rock

4 SpA Arceus-Ghost Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Skarmory: 100-118 (29.94 - 35.32%) -- 43.07% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

+1 4 SpA Arceus-Ghost Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Skarmory: 150-177 (44.91 - 52.99%) -- 90.63% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

(Mind you, max SpAtk is generally the better spread nowadays and that gives you)

255 SpA Arceus-Ghost Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Skarmory: 122-144 (36.52 - 43.11%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

+1 255 SpA Arceus-Ghost Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Skarmory: 183-216 (54.79 - 64.67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


I wouldn't use Rayquaza on Stall so why should Skarm remain B rank because it doesn't fit on Hyper Offense? (even that is debatable)
 

TEzeon

I'm a ramblin gamblin dude!
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I think it might be a little more neat and tidy to just claim that Arceus in general is S rank, instead of having a different rank for each of his different types. This would make the list look a bit cleaner, instead of having it cluttered with all the different kinds of Arceus.

Anyway, nominating Dialga for S rank as well. His typing is incredibly good, allowing him a ton of opportunities to switch in on opponents and wreak the havoc that his 150 base Sp.Atk causes. Specs Dialga in particular has no real counters and forces the opponent to rely on prediction to play around him. Being immune to Toxic is another neat thing that makes him an offensive threat that stall teams absolutely must have an answer for. He's also very versatile, and can pull off a number of good sets and fill different roles for a team.
 

polop

Would you look at the time?
is a Contributor Alumnus
I wouldn't use Rayquaza on Stall so why should Skarm remain B rank because it doesn't fit on Hyper Offense? (even that is debatable)
Hyper Offensive teams top priority is being able to keep up offensive pressure and tempo to eventually where down some pokemon which prevents another mon from sweeping to allow a mon to sweep. Skarmory only can contribute to this by laying down spikes, but in doing so it looses tempo and offensive pressure by providing a free switch the turn it Spikes (and potentially allowing something else to setup (I am aware you tried to refute this point but I'll get to it in a minute :P)), thus it doesn't exactly fit well. I didn't say unviable. That and Tobes was trying to make the team more balanced in your link. I stated that it works fine on balanced and Bulky Offense teams for a reason :P (although I do admit I should've been clearer :().

You misunderstood the flaw I said. Skarmory's big flaw is being setup for a lot of things, Rayquaza is not.

Skarm has access to Spikes AND Taunt AND phazing, that's a long list on utilities on one mon with instant recovery, and amazing typing and respectable defenses. Just because it can't spin block doesn't mean it is any less of an amazing wall, that's just simply not the role it is for. I also find it silly to say something with Taunt and Whirlwind is easy setup fodder. In the Rayquaza example, it has to somehow predict the Roost/Spikes and come in then (giving a free turn for the latter isn't a good thing) as a Taunt will prevent any setup as well as a Whirlwind (except that also racks up damage on a SR weak mon). Even if Ray does manage to come in, it still has to predict as much as Skarm, if not more. If it sets up as Skarm phazes, it not only wasted a move but it now will lose an extra 25%. If it decides to outright attack it has to try to predict which move to use as a V-Create/Fire Blast on a resist will result in heavy stat drops/free turn (uninvested Fire Blast is weak when it's not SE) whereas deciding to Outrage/DClaw while Skarm stays in gives it a free turn to do whatever and racks up some more LO damage.
I don't disagree with you that Skarmory does get Taunt and Whirlwind. I DO disagree with you that it isn't setup. Rayquaza can actually come in on Taunt, it still can Fire Blast the metal bird to oblivion or let a Draco Meteor or Dragon Claw loose to attack what it believes is the switch-in (all Fire-resists barring Heatran dislike these moves). Rayquaza's Fire Blast does not deal little damage to Skarmory. Thanks to Air Lock, Skarmory will not be able to hide in rain. Life Orb Rayquaza with 4 Special Attack EVs does 94.91 - 111.97% to Skarmory, and has a 68.75% chance to OHKO. Skarmory, if sturdy isn't up is practically forced to switch (unless it predicts Dragon Dance, but really........). The same issue happens with other mons too. If I switch in a Zekrom will I take advantage of the free turn and setup a Sub / Tailwind or will I beat Skarmory with a Bolt Strike. The same case applies with Rock Polish Groudon with Fire Punch, Sub Ho-Oh, Calm Mind Mewtwo, and Darkrai (probably more but I can't think right now). Keep in mind this free turn can technically hurt Skarmory with any mon, as even a Dialga that can figure out Skarmory will switch in the face of its Thunder or Fire Blast and Dragon Tail the thing coming in out (it can also use Draco Meteor). Regardless, shouldn't a wall be able to take on enemies regardless of their moveset without severely hurting itself or a team member or relying on prediction? Skarmory relies excessively on prediction, if you look at the tier A walls, no wall relies on this as much as Skarmory.

The fact it can't spin block is a bit larger of an issue then what you might think it. Its forced to switch out at the sight of a Forretress or Tentacruel for this reason. If a spinner safely gets in Skarmory is placed in a terrible situation. Switch out to a spin blocker and let Forry / Tenta get two hazards up? Taunt and get hit by Rapid Spin or Volt Switch (if no hazards are up) or Scald? This is basically the same reason why Lugia is in B rank and not in A rank. Can Lugia prevent a mon from setting up? Yes, but can it stop the spinners? No. Skarmory is different from Lugia though as it can setup Spikes and that it has a different typing, and I completely acknowledge that :P. Do keep in mind that these are flaws that Skarmory has though.

Don't just think about Physical attackers, that typing (it really is incredible in Ubers) and standard SpDef investment goes a far way in allowing it to come in on some special attackers.
Just saying, I acknowledged these earlier by saying that I'm aware it can beat certain Arceus forms (it can even setup Spikes on Support / CM Grass Arceus lol).

I also don't see how only getting 2HKO'd by a +2 mon with 150 base attack (SD Groudon) is supposed to be a flaw. As for Mixed Tina-O, I'm not sure what is used on the ladder but that set has dropped in viability with the intro of BW whereas sets taking advantage of Dragon Tail are generally more effective. Skarmory may not be able to switch into DTails forever but nothing can claim to do so, Skarmory is still the one who is going to take the least damage due to Spikes immunity and resist + bulk. Mixed physical attackers that beat Skarm aren't really THAT common. The big two are Zekrom (doesn't need it) and Ray (only safe switch-in is a bulky Arc form) even things like Tyranitar are either too slow to take advantage of a 2HKO (It's easy to Roost stall til a miss), have to rely on perfect prediction (Thunder Sect are kinda uncommonish and a mispredict with him can be very costly) or just simply can't break Skarm as Rain and/or his SpDef investment stops the coverage move that was slapped on the set. Other than that, SD Rockceus is fairly rare (seems a shame to rely on a 80% acc STAB and throw out the best possible Ho-Oh counter) and Excadrill can't spin forever if it has LO (while Skarm will gladly spam Spikes if Exca decides to be stubborn).
Firstly, WHAT GIRATINA-O SET ARE YOU REFERRING TO ?_? I'm referring to Dragon Tail / Draco Meteor / HP Fire or Thunder or WoW or EQ / Shadow Sneak. I think we might be talking about the same set XD. If your referring to Poppy's Sub Shuffler set, then I can understand that, but Mix Tina in no way is ineffective. Checking Mewtwo, Groudon, and Excadrill isn't bad, and this is while boasting a ridiculously strong Draco Meteor and Dragon Tail alongside a Shadow Sneak that 2HKOes Mewtwo (after SR + LO) and Deoxys-S. I did say its 2HKOed by +2 Stone Edge, but that was if Groudon was holding Lum Berry / nothing to boost it. This is impressive, I'll admit that, but it proves that its titanic defenses still can be broken. If holding Life Orb +2 Stone Edge will have a 62.5% chance to OHKO after Skarmory has taken two rounds of Stealth Rock damage. This assumes Groudon isn't using Fire Punch, if it is Life Orb Fire Punch will always OHKO unless Sturdy is active. Excadrill won't always hold Life Orb. If it doesn't then the problem you run into doesn't exist. That and if Skarmory is going to sit there and spam Spikes as Excadrill Rapid Spins, LO Excadrill may as well go ahead and go for the Swords Dance and 2HKO with Rock Slide. There may not be many mixed physical attackers, but the fact remains that they can simply chuck on Fire Blast or Overheat to OHKO Skarmory in non-rainy weather (or Thunder if your using a Rain Team).
 
I think it might be a little more neat and tidy to just claim that Arceus in general is S rank, instead of having a different rank for each of his different types. This would make the list look a bit cleaner, instead of having it cluttered with all the different kinds of Arceus.
Most of the Arceus forms play completely differently. For example, Normal is generally a Swords Dance Sweeper, Grass is usually a bulky Calm Minder, Ghost is generally the most unpredictable, Electric is an offensive Calm Minder, Bug is pretty awful in general, etc. Combining a bunch of Pokemon that play differently just because they have the same species isn't a good idea. Its sorta like combining the Deoxys formes except there are a lot more of them. It's worth being cluttered imo

EDIT: Think about it like Rotom-A, where there is an OU, UU, RU, and two NU Pokemon that have the same stats (and are all Electric-types), made much more or less viable by their secondary typing and, to an extent, STAB move, alone.
 

blitzlefan

shake it off!
I think it might be a little more neat and tidy to just claim that Arceus in general is S rank, instead of having a different rank for each of his different types. This would make the list look a bit cleaner, instead of having it cluttered with all the different kinds of Arceus.

Anyway, nominating Dialga for S rank as well. His typing is incredibly good, allowing him a ton of opportunities to switch in on opponents and wreak the havoc that his 150 base Sp.Atk causes. Specs Dialga in particular has no real counters and forces the opponent to rely on prediction to play around him. Being immune to Toxic is another neat thing that makes him an offensive threat that stall teams absolutely must have an answer for. He's also very versatile, and can pull off a number of good sets and fill different roles for a team.
You need to keep in mind though that each Arceus form is a different beast, and that not all Arceus forms were created equal. For example, in general, Arceus-Normal will be more effective/viable than Arceus-Bug or Arceus-Psychic will be. Therefore, one is S-Tier while the others are D-Tier. Also, the thread in general was created as a reference material for newer players to get a sense of what's effective and what's less effective in the current metagame, so distinguishing the Arceus forms as separate entities is probably for the best. (I'm not saying that this thread isn't for more experienced players as well though. :P)
 

TEzeon

I'm a ramblin gamblin dude!
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
You need to keep in mind though that each Arceus form is a different beast, and that not all Arceus forms were created equal. For example, in general, Arceus-Normal will be more effective/viable than Arceus-Bug or Arceus-Psychic will be. Therefore, one is S-Tier while the others are D-Tier. Also, the thread in general was created as a reference material for newer players to get a sense of what's effective and what's less effective in the current metagame, so distinguishing the Arceus forms as separate entities is probably for the best. (I'm not saying that this thread isn't for more experienced players as well though. :P)
I understand, but the way I see it, you could just look at it as if all of the Arceus types are actually just different sets with different goals to accomplish. It makes sense for stuff like Kyurem and Deoxys to have a different ranking for their different forms, since the forms all have different stat distribution. But the different Arceus types are not actually completely different Pokemon. They all have the same movepool and base stats, the only difference is the held item and EV spread, not unlike any other Pokemon who has multiple movesets.
 

Punchshroom

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The typing alone is enough to differentiate between the formes, even moreso than stat distribution, since all of them gain access to different STAB and thus utilise different coverage moves. In fact, the difference is so great that how good a physical or special oriented Arceus (or even mono-attacking Arceus) functions is often decided by their typing alone.
 
Hyper Offensive teams top priority is being able to keep up offensive pressure and tempo to eventually where down some pokemon which prevents another mon from sweeping to allow a mon to sweep.

You misunderstood the flaw I said. Skarmory's big flaw is being setup for a lot of things, Rayquaza is not.



I don't disagree with you that Skarmory does get Taunt and Whirlwind. I DO disagree with you that it isn't setup. Rayquaza can actually come in on Taunt, it still can Fire Blast the metal bird to oblivion or let a Draco Meteor or Dragon Claw loose to attack what it believes is the switch-in (all Fire-resists barring Heatran dislike these moves). Rayquaza's Fire Blast does not deal little damage to Skarmory. Thanks to Air Lock, Skarmory will not be able to hide in rain. Life Orb Rayquaza with 4 Special Attack EVs does 94.91 - 111.97% to Skarmory, and has a 68.75% chance to OHKO. Skarmory, if sturdy isn't up is practically forced to switch (unless it predicts Dragon Dance, but really........). The same issue happens with other mons too....

Regardless, shouldn't a wall be able to take on enemies regardless of their moveset without severely hurting itself or a team member or relying on prediction? Skarmory relies excessively on prediction, if you look at the tier A walls, no wall relies on this as much as Skarmory.

The fact it can't spin block is a bit larger of an issue then what you might think it. Its forced to switch out at the sight of a Forretress or Tentacruel for this reason. If a spinner safely gets in Skarmory is placed in a terrible situation. Switch out to a spin blocker and let Forry / Tenta get two hazards up? Taunt and get hit by Rapid Spin or Volt Switch (if no hazards are up) or Scald? This is basically the same reason why Lugia is in B rank and not in A rank. Can Lugia prevent a mon from setting up? Yes, but can it stop the spinners? No. Skarmory is different from Lugia though as it can setup Spikes and that it has a different typing, and I completely acknowledge that :P. Do keep in mind that these are flaws that Skarmory has though.


Firstly, WHAT GIRATINA-O SET ARE YOU REFERRING TO ?_? I'm referring to Dragon Tail / Draco Meteor / HP Fire or Thunder or WoW or EQ / Shadow Sneak. I think we might be talking about the same set XD. If your referring to Poppy's Sub Shuffler set, then I can understand that, but Mix Tina in no way is ineffective. Checking Mewtwo, Groudon, and Excadrill isn't bad, and this is while boasting a ridiculously strong Draco Meteor and Dragon Tail alongside a Shadow Sneak that 2HKOes Mewtwo (after SR + LO) and Deoxys-S.

I did say its 2HKOed by +2 Stone Edge, but that was if Groudon was holding Lum Berry / nothing to boost it. This is impressive, I'll admit that, but it proves that its titanic defenses still can be broken. If holding Life Orb +2 Stone Edge will have a 62.5% chance to OHKO after Skarmory has taken two rounds of Stealth Rock damage. This assumes Groudon isn't using Fire Punch, if it is Life Orb Fire Punch will always OHKO unless Sturdy is active. Excadrill won't always hold Life Orb. If it doesn't then the problem you run into doesn't exist. That and if Skarmory is going to sit there and spam Spikes as Excadrill Rapid Spins, LO Excadrill may as well go ahead and go for the Swords Dance and 2HKO with Rock Slide. There may not be many mixed physical attackers, but the fact remains that they can simply chuck on Fire Blast or Overheat to OHKO Skarmory in non-rainy weather (or Thunder if your using a Rain Team).
Sorry, I probably shouldn't have included Tobes post as it diverted your attention from the argument I wanted to address. Why should Skarm need to function on HO to be considered for A rank? Rayquaza (or many other offensive mons) can't function on Stall yet it isn't demoted.

Again, Taunt + Whirlwind is the best you can expect out of any wall to not be setup fodder. Many of them don't have offensive power, that's why they rely on passive damage to win their games. In any case, Rayquaza is a wall breaker who is only countered by defensive Arceus formes when SR is up.

(My comment about Fire Blast doing little damage was referring to switch-ins. Groundceus will gladly come in on a Fire Blast instead of a DM or Outrage, assuming no burn of course.)

No, not at all. Walls are vulnerable to wall breakers and each individual wall only walls a portion of the metagame. That is why Stall functions as a combined unit of Pokemon and why losing a single member can be so devastating. It's an inherent attribute of the playstyle. Ferrothorn can't do much to stop Ray (or other mons like SubClaws Zek, etc.) from throwing out its wallbreaking attacks, Giratina-A is vulnerable to any Draco Meteor user or Outrage spammer (if they avoid WoW like Ray avoids Whirl), Latias can't do much about Genesect or Darkrai if they predict the healing move.


The same thing applies to Spinners, very many Stall mons can be spun on and even the Ghosts are often Spikes fodder. (Ferrothorn is Forry's bitch) That's why good stall teams make sure to pack members that can Phaze/Taunt/Burn/Bite the Steel type Spikers and Spinners so that they won't remain to pose a threat throughout the duration of the match. It's also why they pack a Spin Blocker and a Spinner themselves so that they have their own tools to fight the hazards game. That's one of the reasons why Skarm is so amazing, he contributes a lot to the team by providing Spikes, Taunting opposing Spikers and Phazing extra hazard damage on Spinners. No other wall can claim to do all these things and why it is easier to fit a Skarmory on a Stall team than others like Chansey (or Lugiass).

Yeah, Mixtina isn't ineffective as very Tina-O set is legitmate. However, Subshuffler and double Phaze are more far more common in the competitive scene because they take advantage of Giratina-O's greatest boon, Dragon Tail. (Yes, I know Mixtina is first in the analysis. Most analyses are outdated in some way.) All of the Pokemon you mentioned it Checking can be done by one or both of these sets already. Mixed Tina suffers from a vulnerability to status (which weakens its effectiveness at spinblocking the common Toxic Forry) and reduced durability from lack of defensive investment. It also fails to take advantage of opposing Spikers (Sub Tina can set up on Forry/Ferro and DoublePhaze can fast phaze them out) as Ferro and even Forry to a certain extent have no difficulty in laying extra layers of Spikes when protected by Rain or weakening Tina with Toxic/Seeds/Pain Split. (For the most part, it's the introduction of Ferro that has made the viability of MixTina drop since DPP.)

These are all uncommon variations on already unpopular sets that often sacrifice utility or coverage in exchange for a coverage move with the express purpose of nailing Skarmory. If anything, this should vouch for the effectiveness of the Pokemon as Physical attackers need to leave themselves more vulnerable to Giratina (a common partner for Skarmory) or extending their list of counters just to lure out and remove the metal bird. (and a lot of them are weather reliant)
 
A few nominations I want to make here, some of them more controversial than others.

Hippowdon for B rank

It's definitely in high B if not low A. The first thing you notice about Hippo is its access to the coveted ability Sand Stream. This alone makes it a notable pokemon in the ubers tier. Sand turns Excadrill into an unstoppable sweeper, turns Rockceus into a special wall that Blissey would envy, and negates the recovery of all the leftovers mons in the tier. Furthermore, running your own weather allows you to disrupt the dominance of rain and sun. But Hippo is not just good for its ability. Hippo is actually a really bulky ground type with Sand Force that works well on rain teams. Running a physically defensive set (special is better for winning weather wars) allows you to check or counter prominent threats to rain teams like Zekrom, Terrakion, most SD Arceus, and more. Hippo combines its stellar 108/112/72 defenses with reliable recovery, stealth rock, and a phazing move. Its flaws are obvious of course: Even the sp.def set dies to any decently powerful special hit, and it is major set up fodder for the likes of Ferrothorn, even with a phazing move. But despite these flaws, Hippowdon is a very solid B rank pokemon.

Abomasnow for C rank

D is just too low for a metagame troll like Abomasnow. Yes, I know that as a stand alone poke, Abomasnow is comparatively ass to the rest of the tier. But its ability allows it to completely mess up weather dependent teams. 1v1, Abomasnow can beat every weather setter with just its STABs. When discussing hail, people need to stop thinking of it as a style of play to build your team around like rain or sun, but as a way of neutering unprepared weather teams. Kyogre can never win the weather war against you unless you are careless, nor can T-tar unless it's scarfed (you can speedcreep T-tar and OHKO it with Wood Hammer). Groudon is trickier, but most of the tier can beat Groudon 1v1 anyway, so it's not too problematic (you do beat variants that lack a fire move). Hail also has a small niche of providing Kyurem White with Blizzard spam, and Mamo with Snow Cloak, which can be nice, and it chips leftovers away too. Overall, despite being an ass pokemon in the tier, Abomasnow's anti-metagame potential is definitely good enough for C rank


Arceus Normal for A rank

This one will probably be the most controversial, so I hope I can explain well. I fully understand that if you don't pack a check to Extreme Killer (which is basically what we mean by Arceus), you will be swept by it. But because we have created such a huge aura around Arceus as being the one you fear the most, and the one that must be stopped at all costs, has actually neutered his effectiveness. Every team worth its salt in the Ubers tier will always pack a check or counter to Extreme Killer Arceus, no question. Now if Arceus were truly S rank, I think he should be able to beat his counters. But he can't.

Physically defensive Giratina-A takes a pittance from +2 Shadow Claw, and can phaze, burn, or kill it if its weak enough. Skarm can actually set up spikes on variants lacking Overheat (which is really uncommon now). Scarf Terrakion always wins, so long as Arceus has a wee bit of residual damage. Arceus Fighting shouldn't be losing to it either. Bulky Ghostceus can comfortably take +2 Shadow Claw, then either burn it or kill it with E-Speed if its weak enough. Even Sableye completely shuts it down.

This inability to break through its counters makes Arceus A rank in my opinion. Kyogre can beat all of its counters 1v1 with the right set (bar irrelevant shit like Shedinja, lol). Even Latias, who was supposed to spell the end of Kyogre's dominance can be beaten by Sub CM Ogre. Everything else is broken in half by Specs Water Spouts. Revenge killers can be paralysed and ruined. Physical attackers can be burned and ruined. Likewise, Ghostceus can do very similar things. This is why they are S rank, and Extreme Killer is A rank. What else can it do? Run an average wall set? How terrifying.

Don't get me wrong, I know how deadly Arceus is if it is not stopped. But it is stopped far too consistently to be S rank. If this thread were just theorymon, then yes, EK would be S rank. However we have to take into account that the ubers tier is dynamic and constantly changing, and bottom line is that Arceus just doesn't sweep teams anymore. People are just too prepared for it.

Dialga for S rank
Now this is an S rank pokemon. Where can I even begin with Dialga? This thing is the king of versatility. Want a bulky attacker that can lay hazards? Dialga does it. Want a facemeltingly powerful wallbreaker? Dialga does it. Want a revenge killer? Dialga does it. Want a Kyogre check? Dialga does it. Want a sweeper? Dialga does it. Hell, want a fucking Trick Room team? Dialga does it.

This versatility is what makes Dialga so dangerous. Nothing can switch in on Dialga safely. Now this is true of many things in Ubers: Mewtwo, Kyogre, Latios, etc. But what makes Dialga unique is its ability to switch in to so much of the tier safely. Steel/Dragon typing is an absolute godsend, granting it not only many resistances, but a neutrality to dragon. This allows Dialga to switch in on the Spacial Rends and Dragon Pulses that fill the tier, and let it do whatever it wants: be that paralyse, phaze, set up hazards, wallbreak, whatever.

The OP says S rank is for pokemon that can either sweep, wall, or support significant portions of the metagame. Dialga can do all three.
 

Haruno

Skadi :)
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Arceus Normal for A rank

This one will probably be the most controversial, so I hope I can explain well. I fully understand that if you don't pack a check to Extreme Killer (which is basically what we mean by Arceus), you will be swept by it. But because we have created such a huge aura around Arceus as being the one you fear the most, and the one that must be stopped at all costs, has actually neutered his effectiveness. Every team worth its salt in the Ubers tier will always pack a check or counter to Extreme Killer Arceus, no question. Now if Arceus were truly S rank, I think he should be able to beat his counters. But he can't.

Physically defensive Giratina-A takes a pittance from +2 Shadow Claw, and can phaze, burn, or kill it if its weak enough. Skarm can actually set up spikes on variants lacking Overheat (which is really uncommon now). Scarf Terrakion always wins, so long as Arceus has a wee bit of residual damage. Arceus Fighting shouldn't be losing to it either. Bulky Ghostceus can comfortably take +2 Shadow Claw, then either burn it or kill it with E-Speed if its weak enough. Even Sableye completely shuts it down.

This inability to break through its counters makes Arceus A rank in my opinion. Kyogre can beat all of its counters 1v1 with the right set (bar irrelevant shit like Shedinja, lol). Even Latias, who was supposed to spell the end of Kyogre's dominance can be beaten by Sub CM Ogre. Everything else is broken in half by Specs Water Spouts. Revenge killers can be paralysed and ruined. Physical attackers can be burned and ruined. Likewise, Ghostceus can do very similar things. This is why they are S rank, and Extreme Killer is A rank. What else can it do? Run an average wall set? How terrifying.

Don't get me wrong, I know how deadly Arceus is if it is not stopped. But it is stopped far too consistently to be S rank. If this thread were just theorymon, then yes, EK would be S rank. However we have to take into account that the ubers tier is dynamic and constantly changing, and bottom line is that Arceus just doesn't sweep teams anymore. People are just too prepared for it.
I'll address the other nominations later but lets look at the definition for S rank.
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.

Can he sweep the majority of the metagame? Undeniably so.
Can he perform multiple roles? Also a yes which is why running any non ekiller set is so hilarious which just adds to his unpredictability.

This one will probably be the most controversial, so I hope I can explain well. I fully understand that if you don't pack a check to Extreme Killer (which is basically what we mean by Arceus), you will be swept by it. But because we have created such a huge aura around Arceus as being the one you fear the most, and the one that must be stopped at all costs, has actually neutered his effectiveness. Every team worth its salt in the Ubers tier will always pack a check or counter to Extreme Killer Arceus, no question. Now if Arceus were truly S rank, I think he should be able to beat his counters. But he can't.
You also claimed that ekiller can't bypass it's checks/counters and that's true. However in case it wasn't obvious arceus isn't limited to just swordsdance/espeed/shadowclaw/brickbreak. He has moves that bypass his "counters/checks." He can run fire blast to fuck skarm/forry. He can run shadow force to completely wreck giratina. Will adding a move that would wreck his check/counter come at a huge oppurtunity cost? Definitely but it can undeniably do so.

Physically defensive Giratina-A takes a pittance from +2 Shadow Claw, and can phaze, burn, or kill it if its weak enough. Skarm can actually set up spikes on variants lacking Overheat (which is really uncommon now). Scarf Terrakion always wins, so long as Arceus has a wee bit of residual damage. Arceus Fighting shouldn't be losing to it either. Bulky Ghostceus can comfortably take +2 Shadow Claw, then either burn it or kill it with E-Speed if its weak enough. Even Sableye completely shuts it down.
252Atk +2 Multitype Arceus (+Atk) Shadow Claw vs 252HP/252Def Levitate Giratina (+Def): 45% - 53% (228 - 270 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 11% chance to 2HKO.

I wouldn't exactly say losing over half its life as taking a pittance. Giratina-o at most can check ekiller once. Giratina has no chance of ko'ing/burning/phazing ekiller without taking heavy damage in return. Not to mention after sr + lack of reliable recovery will make it even less reliable.

Skarm admittedly can counter ekiller unless they have overheat.

Scarfed terrakion can indeed ko arceus after a tiny bit of residual damage but locking yourself into close combat isn't exactly the best idea.

Fightceus fails to ohko standard 252hp arceus regardless of circumstances while a +2 ekiller can easily 2hko it with extreme speed.

Sableye/ghostceus has to rely on will o wisp which isn't exactly the most reliable way of shutting especially since ekiller could be running lum berry.

This inability to break through its counters makes Arceus A rank in my opinion. Kyogre can beat all of its counters 1v1 with the right set (bar irrelevant shit like Shedinja, lol). Even Latias, who was supposed to spell the end of Kyogre's dominance can be beaten by Sub CM Ogre. Everything else is broken in half by Specs Water Spouts. Revenge killers can be paralysed and ruined. Physical attackers can be burned and ruined. Likewise, Ghostceus can do very similar things. This is why they are S rank, and Extreme Killer is A rank. What else can it do? Run an average wall set? How terrifying.
Arceus can break through any of it's counters/checks with little difficulty or even better set up on them. Everyone seems to be obsessed with the fact that arceus normal = ekiller instantly which is a fatal flaw in your argument. Arceus isn't limited to swords dance/espeed/brickbreak/shadowclaw.

Kyogre isn't S rank for it's ability to wreck anything, it's S rank because of the excellent support it gives in rain ontop of being an excellent special attacker. ThoughKyogre gets shut down by max SpD latias with light screen and roar regardless of set. Specs water spout isn't so great considering you're slow as hell and you'll take prior damage. Would a max power spec'd water spout from kyogre in rain wreck anything? Sure but we're not theorymonning here. Kyogre will have taken prior damage via stealth rock and it's also slow. Relying on a scald burn to beat physical attackers is also a poor choice.

How can you say ghostceus can break through the majority of the metagame and ekiller can't is beyond me.

Don't get me wrong, I know how deadly Arceus is if it is not stopped. But it is stopped far too consistently to be S rank. If this thread were just theorymon, then yes, EK would be S rank. However we have to take into account that the ubers tier is dynamic and constantly changing, and bottom line is that Arceus just doesn't sweep teams anymore. People are just too prepared for it.
Arceus is the perfect revenge/lategame sweeper but more importantly Arceus isn't limited to just sd/espeed/brickbreak/shadowclaw as you seem to think he is. I personally have been running a dual screen arceus just for the hell of it with pretty consistent results since it easily sets up on anything designed to wall ekiller thus adding more to the fact that arceus isn't counterable.

Do individual sets for arceus have counters? Definitely but arceus as a whole cannot be countered/checked thus keeping its place in S rank.
 
arceus as a whole cannot be countered/checked thus keeping its place in S rank.
you are wrong. it is very easy to make teams that can counter each individual arceus normal set. chances are, if an Arceus would sweep late game, so would something else that offers something useful to your team like synergy. there is a reason you don't see many arceus normals in high level matches. while it may be a strong pokemon in itself, it makes a team weaker synergy wise. just something to think about.
 
Can we put sableye in C rank already. It's getting annoying waiting for people to pay attention to your posts, since I have literally no standing in the community. Please, someone with people's respect please support this. If you look at my previous posts.


"I would like to propose sableye for C rank, because it with prankster, can be used as an extremely good check to extremekiller because of prankster will o wisp and proceed to spam foul play to kill it, it can check any sort of physically offensive set up sweeper as a matter of fact for the same reasons as extremekiller. Frankly this little guy can check almost any physically offensive mon bar ho oh and CB kyurem Black. Just don't switch into them.
It can check any sort of hazard setter because of its ability as it can taunt deo S, ferrothorn, forry ect with and with those mons said not being able to do ANYTHING back.

It actually has another niche in being able to out stall Lugia on any given day

PS: Genesect is not such a pain in the ass anymore either.

This little guy's only weakness is absolute brute force special attacks, because of the shit defenses this guy has. And any ho Ho Oh it meets on the street robs it of its lunch money.

Someone please respond to this, and don't discount my point on this little guy just because of my post count."

"I'm must say this again because my original post did not get anywhere. Put Sableye in C tier, simply because it it can check every single physical attacker in the Ubers tier, it can recover off the damage taken and do some major damage to ubers pokes because of foul play. And for all of you guys that told me that is it set up fodder for special attackers, that is exactly what prankster +taunt is for. If you predict right it is a invaluable asset for a team in need of a spinblocker.

PS: I admit that Will O Wisp does miss sometimes, but so does Draco Meteor and Bolt Strike, and Blue Flare, and Focus blast and phycho boost ect. The list goes on and on, so will o miss is not a valuable arguement IMO because these other moves miss and are sometimes unreliable, but even still people use them, and almost every single threat in ubers has that problem"
 

Haruno

Skadi :)
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
you are wrong. it is very easy to make teams that can counter each individual arceus normal set. chances are, if an Arceus would sweep late game, so would something else that offers something useful to your team like synergy. there is a reason you don't see many arceus normals in high level matches. while it may be a strong pokemon in itself, it makes a team weaker synergy wise. just something to think about.
I said arceus as a whole is uncounterable. Arceus can run some unorthodox move to bypass said counter/check. Arceus has an easier time sweeping late game due to its access to priority that other mons can't hope to compete with. I would argue about how you're wrong in that arceus normal provides no synergy but that would involve blitzlefan coming in here and bitching at me which I want to avoid.
 
I think the S rank definitely needs to go under scrutiny. I think groudon would fit in it as well as maybe latias. Removing arceus normal is not ridiculous either. You may think his amazing bulk and power are so great, but when it comes down to it arceus normal isn't that powerful. 120 base attack with an 80 base power move is sort of unimpressive in ubers. Groudon deserves S rank because he helps to contain the dominant force that is rain in ubers. Actually he does it so well he consistently remains #3 in usage statistics. Latias can check kyogre who is probably the #1 threat in the game and generally hurt stuff really badly. Donkey made a really good point in his post, while arceus normal is really cool in theory, when you actually use him he is somewhat weak and doesn't help to take hits from the myriad of powerful attackers in ubers. Latias and groudon do however, and deserve a spot in S tier as the best special and physical walls respectively.
 
A few nominations I want to make here, some of them more controversial than others.

Hippowdon for B rank

It's definitely in high B if not low A. The first thing you notice about Hippo is its access to the coveted ability Sand Stream. This alone makes it a notable pokemon in the ubers tier. Sand turns Excadrill into an unstoppable sweeper, turns Rockceus into a special wall that Blissey would envy, and negates the recovery of all the leftovers mons in the tier. Furthermore, running your own weather allows you to disrupt the dominance of rain and sun. But Hippo is not just good for its ability. Hippo is actually a really bulky ground type with Sand Force that works well on rain teams. Running a physically defensive set (special is better for winning weather wars) allows you to check or counter prominent threats to rain teams like Zekrom, Terrakion, most SD Arceus, and more. Hippo combines its stellar 108/112/72 defenses with reliable recovery, stealth rock, and a phazing move. Its flaws are obvious of course: Even the sp.def set dies to any decently powerful special hit, and it is major set up fodder for the likes of Ferrothorn, even with a phazing move. But despite these flaws, Hippowdon is a very solid B rank pokemon.

Abomasnow for C rank

D is just too low for a metagame troll like Abomasnow. Yes, I know that as a stand alone poke, Abomasnow is comparatively ass to the rest of the tier. But its ability allows it to completely mess up weather dependent teams. 1v1, Abomasnow can beat every weather setter with just its STABs. When discussing hail, people need to stop thinking of it as a style of play to build your team around like rain or sun, but as a way of neutering unprepared weather teams. Kyogre can never win the weather war against you unless you are careless, nor can T-tar unless it's scarfed (you can speedcreep T-tar and OHKO it with Wood Hammer). Groudon is trickier, but most of the tier can beat Groudon 1v1 anyway, so it's not too problematic (you do beat variants that lack a fire move). Hail also has a small niche of providing Kyurem White with Blizzard spam, and Mamo with Snow Cloak, which can be nice, and it chips leftovers away too. Overall, despite being an ass pokemon in the tier, Abomasnow's anti-metagame potential is definitely good enough for C rank


Arceus Normal for A rank

This one will probably be the most controversial, so I hope I can explain well. I fully understand that if you don't pack a check to Extreme Killer (which is basically what we mean by Arceus), you will be swept by it. But because we have created such a huge aura around Arceus as being the one you fear the most, and the one that must be stopped at all costs, has actually neutered his effectiveness. Every team worth its salt in the Ubers tier will always pack a check or counter to Extreme Killer Arceus, no question. Now if Arceus were truly S rank, I think he should be able to beat his counters. But he can't.

Physically defensive Giratina-A takes a pittance from +2 Shadow Claw, and can phaze, burn, or kill it if its weak enough. Skarm can actually set up spikes on variants lacking Overheat (which is really uncommon now). Scarf Terrakion always wins, so long as Arceus has a wee bit of residual damage. Arceus Fighting shouldn't be losing to it either. Bulky Ghostceus can comfortably take +2 Shadow Claw, then either burn it or kill it with E-Speed if its weak enough. Even Sableye completely shuts it down.

This inability to break through its counters makes Arceus A rank in my opinion. Kyogre can beat all of its counters 1v1 with the right set (bar irrelevant shit like Shedinja, lol). Even Latias, who was supposed to spell the end of Kyogre's dominance can be beaten by Sub CM Ogre. Everything else is broken in half by Specs Water Spouts. Revenge killers can be paralysed and ruined. Physical attackers can be burned and ruined. Likewise, Ghostceus can do very similar things. This is why they are S rank, and Extreme Killer is A rank. What else can it do? Run an average wall set? How terrifying.

Don't get me wrong, I know how deadly Arceus is if it is not stopped. But it is stopped far too consistently to be S rank. If this thread were just theorymon, then yes, EK would be S rank. However we have to take into account that the ubers tier is dynamic and constantly changing, and bottom line is that Arceus just doesn't sweep teams anymore. People are just too prepared for it.

Dialga for S rank
Now this is an S rank pokemon. Where can I even begin with Dialga? This thing is the king of versatility. Want a bulky attacker that can lay hazards? Dialga does it. Want a facemeltingly powerful wallbreaker? Dialga does it. Want a revenge killer? Dialga does it. Want a Kyogre check? Dialga does it. Want a sweeper? Dialga does it. Hell, want a fucking Trick Room team? Dialga does it.

This versatility is what makes Dialga so dangerous. Nothing can switch in on Dialga safely. Now this is true of many things in Ubers: Mewtwo, Kyogre, Latios, etc. But what makes Dialga unique is its ability to switch in to so much of the tier safely. Steel/Dragon typing is an absolute godsend, granting it not only many resistances, but a neutrality to dragon. This allows Dialga to switch in on the Spacial Rends and Dragon Pulses that fill the tier, and let it do whatever it wants: be that paralyse, phaze, set up hazards, wallbreak, whatever.

The OP says S rank is for pokemon that can either sweep, wall, or support significant portions of the metagame. Dialga can do all three.
I have to disagree with Arceus-Normal for B-rank. The fact that it forces every team to carry a counter / check is just shows how threatening it is. All three pokemon in S-rank have counters. If Latias were to carry CM as well, Kyogre can no longer win with SubCM. Same applies if Latias were SDef and just LS and Roars you away. Sure, Latias is pressurized by Genesect and Tyranitar, but there are many other Kyogre checks as well, such as Waterceus (which can Roar or Perish Song), Grasseus (type advantage, CM along), Gastrodon (screwed by SubCM and Resttalk variants), Ferrothorn (Specs 2HKOs, but then you're slow and much easier to revenge kill), Shedinja (lol). Ghostceus is also never getting past its counters, unless you decide to use SD (lol). Jirachi can simply paraflinch you to death, Ho-Oh can still survive a +1 Judgment after SR (assuming 4 SAtk), SDef Kyogre can't do anything, but neither can you, while CM beats you 1 on 1. Also, EKiller makes revenge killing difficult due to priority, while Darkrai can simply Dark Void the other two, blablabla.
Also Dialga setting up SR is almost imminent.
 

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