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Gen 5 The Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Now Taking Write-Ups)

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Tobes, Oct 27, 2012.

  1. moonbase

    moonbase

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    Can we put sableye in C rank already. It's getting annoying waiting for people to pay attention to your posts, since I have literally no standing in the community. Please, someone with people's respect please support this. If you look at my previous posts.


    "I would like to propose sableye for C rank, because it with prankster, can be used as an extremely good check to extremekiller because of prankster will o wisp and proceed to spam foul play to kill it, it can check any sort of physically offensive set up sweeper as a matter of fact for the same reasons as extremekiller. Frankly this little guy can check almost any physically offensive mon bar ho oh and CB kyurem Black. Just don't switch into them.
    It can check any sort of hazard setter because of its ability as it can taunt deo S, ferrothorn, forry ect with and with those mons said not being able to do ANYTHING back.

    It actually has another niche in being able to out stall Lugia on any given day

    PS: Genesect is not such a pain in the ass anymore either.

    This little guy's only weakness is absolute brute force special attacks, because of the shit defenses this guy has. And any ho Ho Oh it meets on the street robs it of its lunch money.

    Someone please respond to this, and don't discount my point on this little guy just because of my post count."

    "I'm must say this again because my original post did not get anywhere. Put Sableye in C tier, simply because it it can check every single physical attacker in the Ubers tier, it can recover off the damage taken and do some major damage to ubers pokes because of foul play. And for all of you guys that told me that is it set up fodder for special attackers, that is exactly what prankster +taunt is for. If you predict right it is a invaluable asset for a team in need of a spinblocker.

    PS: I admit that Will O Wisp does miss sometimes, but so does Draco Meteor and Bolt Strike, and Blue Flare, and Focus blast and phycho boost ect. The list goes on and on, so will o miss is not a valuable arguement IMO because these other moves miss and are sometimes unreliable, but even still people use them, and almost every single threat in ubers has that problem"
  2. Haruno

    Haruno

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    I said arceus as a whole is uncounterable. Arceus can run some unorthodox move to bypass said counter/check. Arceus has an easier time sweeping late game due to its access to priority that other mons can't hope to compete with. I would argue about how you're wrong in that arceus normal provides no synergy but that would involve blitzlefan coming in here and bitching at me which I want to avoid.
  3. kakuna

    kakuna

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    I think the S rank definitely needs to go under scrutiny. I think groudon would fit in it as well as maybe latias. Removing arceus normal is not ridiculous either. You may think his amazing bulk and power are so great, but when it comes down to it arceus normal isn't that powerful. 120 base attack with an 80 base power move is sort of unimpressive in ubers. Groudon deserves S rank because he helps to contain the dominant force that is rain in ubers. Actually he does it so well he consistently remains #3 in usage statistics. Latias can check kyogre who is probably the #1 threat in the game and generally hurt stuff really badly. Donkey made a really good point in his post, while arceus normal is really cool in theory, when you actually use him he is somewhat weak and doesn't help to take hits from the myriad of powerful attackers in ubers. Latias and groudon do however, and deserve a spot in S tier as the best special and physical walls respectively.
  4. lousy918

    lousy918

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    I have to disagree with Arceus-Normal for B-rank. The fact that it forces every team to carry a counter / check is just shows how threatening it is. All three pokemon in S-rank have counters. If Latias were to carry CM as well, Kyogre can no longer win with SubCM. Same applies if Latias were SDef and just LS and Roars you away. Sure, Latias is pressurized by Genesect and Tyranitar, but there are many other Kyogre checks as well, such as Waterceus (which can Roar or Perish Song), Grasseus (type advantage, CM along), Gastrodon (screwed by SubCM and Resttalk variants), Ferrothorn (Specs 2HKOs, but then you're slow and much easier to revenge kill), Shedinja (lol). Ghostceus is also never getting past its counters, unless you decide to use SD (lol). Jirachi can simply paraflinch you to death, Ho-Oh can still survive a +1 Judgment after SR (assuming 4 SAtk), SDef Kyogre can't do anything, but neither can you, while CM beats you 1 on 1. Also, EKiller makes revenge killing difficult due to priority, while Darkrai can simply Dark Void the other two, blablabla.
    Also Dialga setting up SR is almost imminent.
  5. Donkey

    Donkey

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    Sure, the combined group of every single Arceus type is uncounterable by 1 poke (no shit), but a good team will be able to beat any Arceus set regardless. Since this thread categorizes Arceus by type, your statement "Definitely but arceus as a whole cannot be countered/checked thus keeping its place in S rank." has literally no base if you are applying it to EVERY Arceus form, since every Arceus form is not considered S rank: only specific forms are. Unfortunately, you are still wrong either way. Arceus can run a move to bypass a check but it means it will be checked by something else. Example: Arceus Fight with Stone Edge beats Ho-Oh yet loses to Giratina-O.

    This is why I avoid this thread because of the blatant, unchecked stupidity that seems to run rampant here.
    Magcargo 2 likes this.
  6. Haruno

    Haruno

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    I was mainly talking about normal arceus since it's people like you that seem to think normal arceus can only run ekiller. The reason why people run unorthodox sets is because those new counters that it loses to wouldn't dare switching in. For example take arceus normal. If it decides to forgo its extreme killer set and decides to go dual screens instead it turns all of ekillers normal checks/counters (gira/skarm) into little more than setup bait since they can't do much in return while opening itself to taunters that wouldn't dare switch in on it. If anyone's being ignorant it's you here since you seem to be under the impression that normal arceus only has 4 moves total.
  7. tehy

    tehy

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    Haruno:

    The point he's making is that, let's say Ekiller runs in the fourth slot Overheat. Now Gira-O stomps him. Or he runs Shadow claw, forry stops him.

    Etc, Etc. Point being is that you can carry checks to each different form of Arceus-Normal. And Donkey is saying that any good team will carry checks to all of those.
  8. OVRLDD

    OVRLDD

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    2 notifications:

    1. As must people already said, the S-rank is being poorly invested. There are many threats that should be in there, as the case of Groudon. I believe that Groudon is more feared then arceus-normal. Not only because of his weather wars, but also for his huge defense, status spreader, stealth rock puter, or in some cases, rockpolish/SD set. As for arceus-normal, lets be serious: if you don't want to run an EKiller set, you just use another Arceus-Type, because they are all better then normal arceus at other aspects.

    Don't want to say that Arceus-N isn't S-Rank material - because it is - but if he is, shouldn't other poke, like Groudon, be in it aswell?


    2. Arceus-Electric: C-Rank? For real? While Arceus-Fight is A-Rank?!??
    I know that Arceus-Fight is a great Sand-Counter, and that it has perfect coverage and rare weaknesses, and it does deserve A-Rank (maybe B imo... I would put it in the middle of both), but Arceus-E is such as good -if not better - then Arceus-Fight.

    As Arceus-Fight, Arceus-Elect has perfect move coverage (thunder+icebeam), rare weaknesses (only ground, which is more use by groudon, who fears the icebeam, and excadrill. There are some rare cases, like Ho-oh, but they can be cared of with Thunder or other teammates). It's a perfect fit for Rain teams. 1 of his coverage moves is super-effective on the majority of the tier. After 1 calm-mind, it can survive scarf modest kyogre water-spout and OHKO with Thunder.

    It should be, on minimum, B-Rank.
  9. Donkey

    Donkey

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    No where in my post did I mention or hint that Arceus-Normal can only run one set - if you are going to attempt to counter my argument please do not strawman me and attempt to interject logic into your posts.

    Additionally, what the hell is Dual Screen Arceus going to do to Skarmory or Giratina-A? Skarm will just Toxic spam and Giratina will Dragon Tail or Willowisp. You will not be able to get any safe switches. Running Dual Screens on Arceus-Normal is a complete waste of an Arceus form. Dual screens are much more effective on pokemon like Deoxys-S, Jirachi, and Latias since you can set up an Arceus to sweep rather than foddering one.

    If anyone's being ignorant it's you here since you seem to be under the impression that you can theorymon on a high level.
  10. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    Woah what's with this talk about dropping Arceus-Normal to A or even B-rank?
    Extremekiller is one of the most terrifying sets in the metagame and the best lategame sweeper in the entire game.
    That set alone has so many variants it's not even funny. It can run LO to net some crucial OHKOs and 2HKOs, it can run Overheat to toast Skarmory, it can run Thunder to zap Skarmory in the rain, it can run Shadow Force to destroy Giratina and Lugia, it can run Lum Berry so you can't stop it with Prankster, it can run Recover so you can't defeat it with Leech Seed stalling.

    And if you expect E.killer it can also run Wallceus to completely screw you over.

    Arceus-Normal is incredibly versatile and dangerous. That thing is the sheer definition of S-rank.
  11. Darknesscrusher

    Darknesscrusher

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    False, Arceus-Normal is a far better Dual-Screen user due to light clay and a better wall due to a not so common weakness and Leftovers. People seem to forget that Arceus-Normal can actually run items, whereas the others cannot. Granted, the other formes have better typing coverage, such as Ghostceus, but Normal Arceus also gets the mark of "EKiller" by most (bad) players, making him a good user of other sets, with other counters.
  12. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    I have no idea why you'd waste Arceus' potential as a mediocre dual screener when there are far better choices.
  13. Darknesscrusher

    Darknesscrusher

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    120/120 Defense and Special defense is pretty freaking great and have you ever used Dual Screens? Those things are freaking great.
  14. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    Unlike Latios it doesn't get Memento or a powerful attack (its most powerful immediate attack without drawbacks is Return) and unlike Deoxys-S it doesn't get Taunt.

    On top of that it doesn't get Volt Switch or U-Turn, meaning that after you set the screens the opponent will have the upper hand and will switch their wall/Taunt user/phazer of choice to prevent your designed setup sweeper to take advantage of the screens.

    Arceus-Normal is definitely a S-rank pokemon, but a dual screen set is not what it should be used for.
  15. Darknesscrusher

    Darknesscrusher

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    Hmm... maybe not, but it can run it, and better than other Arceus formes. And it sure is S-rank.
  16. Haruno

    Haruno

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    It has perish song which forces switches arguably more useful than both uturn/voltswitch.
  17. Chirac

    Chirac

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    And then, Wobba says hi.
    In fact, Arceus-normal is so good under screens that it would be a shame if it is the dual screener.
  18. Haruno

    Haruno

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    Moody testing is over isnt it? People only ran so ba exclusively to stop moody. Which isn't even successful.
  19. Magcargo 2

    Magcargo 2
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    Yeah, Arceus-n should stay in S-Rank. I've swept many teams with him before because I commonly run shadow force, which does major damage to giritina. Furthermore, skarmory is relatively rare.

    I also agree with moving groudon up S-Rank because of the support it provides.

    I also think that kyurem-b needs to move up to B-rank. I shall explan the reasoning later in the day.
  20. Chirac

    Chirac

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    The suspect is officially stopped, but still in place on the ladders. (There's only the ubersuspecttest tier, and no uber tier)
    And no, wobbuffet isn't used only for this suspect. It's actually a decent 'mon against balanced who use scarf Palkia/Genesect/Kyurem-W for example.
  21. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan I remember it all too well...
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    What??? I just... ??? I haven't done anything??? And you seriously decide to single me out and mock me when I'm not even here / haven't done anything??? Honestly... ??? Are you serious???? Is this REALLY necessary??? You keep on rudely singling me out like I've done something awful by posting, but when I use usage statistics and damage calculations to back my claims, you ignore me and then proceed to insult me in later posts. You are incredibly condescending and treat me as if I don't know anything, and this is getting quite ridiculous. In addition to the more recent posts I have quoted above, your posts in the CCAT are all rude and insulting and you're really acting like a jerk to me. So stop it. Yes, chances are, this post will be deleted or edited, and I may get an infraction, but I'm tired of being mocked and belittled every time you speak.

    (All of these posts were directed at me or about me)

    Show Hide

    Show Hide

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    Anyways... I think that Arceus-Normal definitely deserves his spot as an S-rank mon. Even when you prepare for them, with one misplay, Arceus-Normal becomes devastating, as the combination of Swords Dance and priority STAB ExtremeSpeed is extremely effective, and scores a multitude of OHKOs with Stealth Rock. Also, Arceus-Normal has excellent 120/120/120 bulk and unlike other Arceus forms, has access to a variety of items (eg Life Orb, Silk Scarf, Leftovers, etc.).

    Lastly, though it's rather poorly formatted (ain't nobody got time fo dat), this is a list of a LOT of Ubers mons that get OHKO'd or severly crippled by +2 Arceus-Normal.

    Show Hide
    Manaphy (Uber Calm Mind) ExtremeSpeed 80.44 - 95.04% Earthquake 55.94 - 65.84%
    Genesect (Uber Placeholder) Earthquake 83.39 - 98.23% ExtremeSpeed 59.71 - 70.67%
    Mewtwo (Uber Support (StallTwo)) ExtremeSpeed 85.33 - 100.48% Shadow Claw 83.17 - 98.07%
    Ho-Oh (Uber Tank) ExtremeSpeed 85.54 - 100.72% Shadow Claw 41.68 - 49.15%
    Arceus-Poison (Uber Calm Mind) Earthquake 86.48 - 102.25% ExtremeSpeed 62.38 - 73.64%
    Arceus-Rock (Uber Mono-Attacker) Earthquake 86.93 - 102.7% ExtremeSpeed 31.3 - 36.93%
    Arceus-Steel (Uber Calm Mind) Earthquake 87.13 - 102.93% ExtremeSpeed 31.37 - 37.02%
    Kyogre (Uber Thunder Wave) ExtremeSpeed 87.62 - 103.21% Earthquake 60.89 - 71.78%
    Kyogre (Uber SubCM) ExtremeSpeed 87.87 - 103.46% Earthquake 61.13 - 72.02%
    Mewtwo (Uber Bulky Attacker) ExtremeSpeed 87.87 - 103.46% Shadow Claw 85.64 - 100.99%
    Kyogre (Uber SubCM [Drizzle]) ExtremeSpeed 87.87 - 103.46% Earthquake 61.13 - 72.02%
    Kyurem-W (Uber Choice Specs) ExtremeSpeed 90.79 - 106.9% Earthquake 63.17 - 74.42%
    Manaphy (Uber Tail Glow) ExtremeSpeed 95.02 - 112.28% Earthquake 66.08 - 77.77%
    Dialga (Uber Bulk Up + RestTalk) Earthquake 95.04 - 112.37% ExtremeSpeed 34.15 - 40.34%
    Dialga (Uber Special Attacker) Earthquake 95.54 - 112.87% ExtremeSpeed 34.4 - 40.59%
    Zekrom (Uber Substitute + Hone Claws) Earthquake 95.54 - 112.87% ExtremeSpeed 69.05 - 81.18%
    Dialga (Uber Defensive) Earthquake 95.54 - 112.87% ExtremeSpeed 34.4 - 40.59%
    Zekrom (Uber Choice Band) Earthquake 95.54 - 112.87% ExtremeSpeed 69.05 - 81.18%
    Mewtwo (Uber Psycho Killer) ExtremeSpeed 100.28 - 118.07% Shadow Claw 97.74 - 115.25%
    Ho-Oh (Uber Choice Scarf) ExtremeSpeed 100.28 - 118.13% Shadow Claw 48.72 - 57.5%
    Rayquaza (Uber Choice Band) ExtremeSpeed 100.85 - 118.8% Shadow Claw 49 - 57.83%
    Rayquaza (Uber Dragon Dance) ExtremeSpeed 101.13 - 119.08% Shadow Claw 49.28 - 58.11%
    Arceus-Steel (Uber Swords Dance) Earthquake 100.78 - 119.16% ExtremeSpeed 36.22 - 42.78%
    Arceus-Fire (Uber Calm Mind) Earthquake 100.78 - 119.16% ExtremeSpeed 72.7 - 85.82%
    Kyurem-W (Uber Choice Scarf) ExtremeSpeed 101.27 - 119.18% Earthquake 70.33 - 82.86%
    Palkia (Uber Choice Specs) ExtremeSpeed 100.93 - 119.25% Earthquake 70.18 - 82.6%
    Arceus-Rock (Uber Offensive Calm Mind) Earthquake 101.04 - 119.37% ExtremeSpeed 36.38 - 42.93%
    Arceus-Electric (Uber Calm Mind) Earthquake 101.04 - 119.37% ExtremeSpeed 73.03 - 85.86%
    Arceus-Rock (Uber Swords Dance) Earthquake 101.04 - 119.37% ExtremeSpeed 36.38 - 42.93%
    Kyogre (Uber Choice Scarf) ExtremeSpeed 103.8 - 122.22% Earthquake 72.22 - 85.08%
    Dialga (Uber Choice Scarf) Earthquake 109.03 - 128.81% ExtremeSpeed 39.26 - 46.32%
    Rayquaza (Uber Mixed Dancer) ExtremeSpeed 112.82 - 132.76% Shadow Claw 54.7 - 64.67%
    Palkia (Uber Choice Scarf) ExtremeSpeed 113.08 - 133.02% Earthquake 78.19 - 92.21%
    Zekrom (Uber Choice Scarf) Earthquake 112.86 - 133.33% ExtremeSpeed 81.57 - 95.9%
    Zekrom (Uber Tailwind) Earthquake 113.19 - 133.72% ExtremeSpeed 81.81 - 96.18%
    Deoxys-S (Uber Dual Screens) ExtremeSpeed 116.77 - 137.5% Shadow Claw 113.81 - 134.21%
    Zekrom (Uber Mixed Attacker) Earthquake 117.16 - 138.41% ExtremeSpeed 84.19 - 99.18%
    Shaymin-S (Uber Choice Specs) ExtremeSpeed 120.82 - 142.52% Shadow Claw 58.94 - 69.5%
    Shaymin-S (Uber Special Sweeper) ExtremeSpeed 121.53 - 143.36% Shadow Claw 59.29 - 69.91%
    Darkrai (Uber Choice Scarf) ExtremeSpeed 125.88 - 148.22% Earthquake 87.58 - 103.19%
    Darkrai (Uber Double Status) ExtremeSpeed 125.97 - 148.39% Earthquake 87.54 - 103.2%
    Dialga (Uber Mixed) Earthquake 126.09 - 148.97% ExtremeSpeed 45.16 - 53.37%
    Tornadus-T (Uber Choice Specs) ExtremeSpeed 130.43 - 153.51% Shadow Claw 63.54 - 74.91%
    Tornadus-T (Uber Life Orb Attacker) ExtremeSpeed 130.76 - 154.51% Shadow Claw 63.87 - 75.25%
    Reshiram (Uber Sunny Day) Earthquake 131.96 - 155.42% ExtremeSpeed 95.01 - 112.02%
    Reshiram (Uber Substitute) Earthquake 132.16 - 155.55% ExtremeSpeed 95.02 - 112.28%
    Thundurus (Uber Prankster) ExtremeSpeed 144.81 - 170.56% Shadow Claw 70.56 - 83.27%
    Deoxys-S (Uber Suicide Lead) ExtremeSpeed 147.3 - 173.44% Shadow Claw 143.56 - 169.29%
    Reshiram (Uber Flame Charge) Earthquake 147.21 - 173.6% ExtremeSpeed 106.45 - 125.21%
    Deoxys (Uber Offensive Dual Screens) ExtremeSpeed 155.24 - 183.06% Shadow Claw 150.8 - 178.22%
    Excadrill (Uber Bulky Rapid Spin) Earthquake 168.39 - 198.51% ExtremeSpeed 60.74 - 71.35%
    Excadrill (Uber Offensive Swords Dance) Earthquake 188.39 - 222.09% ExtremeSpeed 67.95 - 79.83%
    Blaziken (Uber Swords Dance) Earthquake 200.66 - 236.42% ExtremeSpeed 144.03 - 169.86%
    Deoxys-A (Uber Life Orb) ExtremeSpeed 418.25 - 492.11% Shadow Claw 406.63 - 478.83%
    Deoxys-A (Uber Focus Sash Attacker) ExtremeSpeed 467.21 - 550.2% Shadow Claw 454.77 - 535.26%
    ogasian likes this.
  22. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    Kyu-B's main niche is being able to check both Groudon and Kyogre at the same time without being locked into the same move with a choice item, while also not being forced out by Chansey/Blissey, Ho-oh and Reshiram (something Grass Arceus and Skymin can't do).
    The mixed LO set is the best way to do so.
    While it's true that Kyu-W can OHKO both of them with Draco Meteor, it will be forced out the next turn. That's where Kyu-B comes in.

    It should not be compared to Zekrom (who, by the way, has a hard time switching on Groudon and Kyogre because of its ground and ice weaknesses - which Kyu-B lacks) because they're not meant to be played the same way.

    I find Kyu-B to work best in sand teams since they usually struggle against the uber weather inducers. Its not meant to sweep anyway, just get rid of Groudon and/or Kyogre (if they're still around the weather will likely not be sandstorm so you won't have to worry about passive damage) and you're good to go.
    Even if you don't manage to do that, the mixed LO set is going to punch some pretty big holes into whatever switches in.

    The niche of being able of checking Groudon and Kyogre is big enough to warrant at the very least a B-rank.
  23. Magcargo 2

    Magcargo 2
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    Kyurem-b is one of the better mixed attackers in the tier. A STAB ice beam and Outrage will do massive damage to many foes. Furthermore, Kyurem-B has a good typing in the metagame because it literally laughs at kyogre, who will be hard-pressed to tank repetitive fusion bolts. A Life orb Ice beam also deals great damage to groudon, lugia ETC. Kyurem-b also sits at an impressive speed tier, as base 95 speed outpaces Ho-oh, reshiram, zekrom and giritina. While kyurem-b is often shafted in favor of kyurem-w, Kyurem-w will usually be spmming draco meteors, which forces it to switch out and take even more damage from entry hazards. Kyurem-b does not face this flaw because its main move, outrage, has a smaller side effect. Kyurem-b may not be the greatest dragon type, but it still deserves to be B-rank instead of being in the same rank as trash like slamence and Qwilfish.
  24. Windsong

    Windsong .dancin
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    This is flat out incorrect. I'm not arguing for Arceus down to A or B rank, but literally the only notable sets are Extreme Killer and kind of wallceus? Defensive Arc-N is done better by other forms that actually have the benefit of useful defensive typing though.

    Anyways, dual screens Arceus-N is one of the worst possible dual screeners in ubers. Hell, I'd argue that it's the worst dual screener in the tier, given that it means you're uselessly spending your Arceus as something that can't do anything except be a sitting duck (it can't even gain momentum since it doesn't have Taunt, Volt Switch, U-turn, significant hazards, or Baton Pass) while your opponent is actually using their Arceus for something useful. Deo-S is a better screener since it has Spikes + Taunt. Latios is a better dual screener since it has Memento. Cresselia's a better dual screener since it has Lunar Dance. Hell, even something like Uxie would probably be better since it has U-turn.

    tl;dr don't try and keep Arc-N S-rank on basis of dual screens lol. It's an argument that simply won't work.
  25. Gogeta

    Gogeta

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    Um, wow, that caused quite the response. I'm kind of disappointed my other nominations were lost in the EK frenzy, so I'll say now that I'm fine with keeping EK in S, it was just a suggestion.

    So how do you guys feel about Hippo in B, Aboma in C, and Dialga in S?

    I'd also like to nominate Sawsbuck for C rank too. Blisteringly fast under the sun, with an SD under its belt it's very hard to stop the little deer, hitting almost everything in the tier hard with its STABs and Jump Kick. However it's very hard to switch in, and lacks immediate power, so I think C rank is fair?

    Sorry about nomming so much at once, I've been testing a lot of stuff lately.

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