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Gen 5 The Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Now Taking Write-Ups)

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Tobes, Oct 27, 2012.

  1. Shiruba

    Shiruba

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    deoxys-n is outclassed, but the e tier is for things that are mediocre/the worst of the worst/complete shit. deoxys-n is not complete shit - it's just outclassed. it's fine where it is.
  2. Gogeta

    Gogeta

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    Definitely supporting Cube for B rank. CB is just facemeltingly powerful, since not even ubers ferro can stop it. I've also had decent success with sub claws cube on a rain semi stall team. It is doomed to be revenge killed by basically all its dragon brethren, and despite being naturally bulky, it isn't going to be standing up to the really powerful attacks without investment.

    This considered, Kyurem Black is definitely B rank

    No love for Sawsbuck? Anyone?
  3. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    Nominating Volcarona for C-rank.
    100 base speed, useful dual STABs, ability to function in both sun and rain and solid special bulk make it viable in ubers.

    The abundance of Genesect means that it can setup rather easily on it as it resists most of its common moves; furthermore Genesect won't mindlessly use U-Turn on something with Falme Body and will just switch out fearing a STAB Fire attack, allowing Volcarona to grab a Quiver Dance boost or Roost off damage.

    Flame Body also means that Arceus and Rayquaza might be in for a nasty surprise if they try to revenge kill it with Extremespeed.

    Of course its weakness to entry hazards in general, especially SR, is pretty terrible in a tier where rapid spinning is notoriously hard, which is why it's C-rank material in my book.

    Another problem with Volcarona is that it has to choose between being walled by Ho-oh (if it doesn't have HP Rock) or Giratina (if it doesn't have HP Ice).

    However if it manages to grab a QD boost Volcarona can easily sweep entire teams if those checks have been eliminated.
  4. jackm

    jackm

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    Just pointing out that even with HP ice, you're walled by any Giratina-A.

    +1 252 SpA Volcarona Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Giratina: 200-236 (39.76 - 46.91%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    That's against PhysDef Gira, in case you missed it.
  5. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    I used LO instead of Leftovers for my calculations:

    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Volcarona Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Giratina: 260-307 (51.68 - 61.03%) -- 93.36% chance to 2HKO

    I figured that in a tier where Sandstorm and Hail are uncommon and most opponents have high special bulk LO would be preferable over Lefties.
  6. jackm

    jackm

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    Eh, I don't know... Volc is so hazard-weak that it's going to go down really, really quickly. It's not like Ho-oh, who can afford to run LO between Regenerator, Roost, and immunity to spikes.
  7. Gogeta

    Gogeta

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    Volcarona's hazard weakness cannot be stressed enough in a tier like Ubers. It is much, much harder to spin in Ubers than it is in OU. The offensive pressure is much higher, and the spinblockers are nearly unbreakable. This is also a tier with Deoxys Speed, the best bar none pokemon at getting hazards up.

    This means Volcarona is probably only going to get to switch in once for the entire game. At best, you will be at 50% health. So Volc is only ever going to kill the thing it is switched into, because even 6 QD's won't help you in a tier where Extreme Speed is everywhere. Sure you can argue Flame Body hax, but it's not frequent enough to be a really strong factor.

    Even with a bunch of QD's, you're still not breaking through very common threats, depending on your HP of choice. If you forgo ice then Giratina walls you and phazes you (which in Volc's case means death). If you forgo Ground then Heatran walls you and phazes you (I know Heatran isn't that common but it's a lot more common than Volc). Sp.Def Kyogre and Sp.Def Arceus types not weak to your STAB (which in rain is quite a lot) can take a hit and OHKO you even with boosts under your belt, or just phaze you.

    While Volcarona packs decent power and arguably the best boosting move in the game, the Ubers environment is far too harsh for it to be effective. I don't really see it as relevant enough to even rank, but if we are to, then D rank sounds fitting.
  8. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    I admit I was being a bit generous with Volcarona's ranking, but I do feel like it has potential - if anything because it completely messes Genesect up, a very common pokemon right now.

    It should be noted that it also scares Deoxys-S, Ferrothorn and Forretress off, the most common dedicated entry hazard users in ubers. Well Deo-S will still get hazards up but it can't touch Volcarona other than Taunt/Trick and Bug Buzz will make short work of it.

    It's just that SR weakness that ruins it, but in the right conditions Volcarona can be an effective late-game sweeper.

    Looking at D-rank we have things like Dugtrio (what exactly is it going to kill in ubers with that base 80 attack?) and Jumpluff (a weather-reliant sleep inducer when Darkrai exists? Outside of weather and sleep it's completely outclassed by Whimsicott) that have even smaller niches than Volcarona.
    Keeping this in mind, Volcarona should be put in D rank at the very least. The question is whether it could be C rank material if you pair it with the support it requires (re: Magic Bounce, since getting past uber spinblockers is often more trouble than what is worth) or not.
  9. puregenius

    puregenius

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    ok lets review

    this pretty much describes volc
    in a hazard centric metagame with no reliable way to spin, volc really is ineffective
    unlike ho oh who shares the x4 sr weakness, he does not have regen or an amazing stat distribution
    compared to reshi, he has a greater sr weakness and doesnt hit nearly as hard, only boasting higher speed and quiver dance
    unfortunately, his bulk is so terrible setting up is ridiculously difficult
    bug STAB may seem cool with stuff like darkrai and mewtwo running around everywhere, but reshi can ohko them anyway even without boosting

    252 SpA Reshiram Blue Flare vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Darkrai in sun: 387-456 (137.23 - 161.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 SpA Reshiram Blue Flare vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mewtwo in sun: 387-456 (109.32 - 128.81%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    sure it can do some cool stuff like ohko 252 arceus, but after sr, most variants of volc are ohkoed by espeed

    i honestly dont think he deserves to be ranked, but d is most fitting

    ps: heres the research week they did for it http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3466936
  10. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    Ok after reading the research thread I think Volcarona falls into D-rank: it's not very good but it's not completely useless and does have a few niche uses.
    Worth building a team around it? Probably not. Could said team achieve a reasonable win ratio if well played? Maybe.
  11. Gogeta

    Gogeta

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    I'm gonna keep saying this until someone supports it or disagrees with it.

    SAWSBUCK FOR C RANK

    My reasoning can be found on page 13, I think. Sorry for being obnoxious but I want to see if my success with it has been shared, or if others think it's ass.
  12. puregenius

    puregenius

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    Well the problem is getting the initial boost
    His defenses are terrible, sitting at 80/70/70
    This means u will be able to tank next to nothing and u will only last a couple of turns with the initial hit + lo recoil + hazards
    Even if u somehow get in safely, u will be able to force very little out to set up
    Horn leech sounds cool to recover lo recoil but then u realise half the tier resists grass
    The thing u can hit, kyogre, takes away sun so it will outspeed and ohko with a scarfed ice beam
    Finally, it faces stiff competition with ek arceus as a normal atker
    Not only does arceus have better stats, chlorophyll's speed boost is inferior to the +2 priority of extreme speed

    Definitely not c
    Sure we could rank him, but there's no point since he just isn't viable
  13. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    Sawsbuck has the same problem of every offensive grass type: bad coverage.
    SD+Return+Horn Leech are practically mandatory on every set, so you have room for one coverage move (Nature Power, Megahorn, Jump Kick or Wild Charge).

    Without Jump kick it gets walled by Ferrothorn who will be more than happy to paralyze it and then lay down Spikes while Sawsbuck kills itself from LO recoil and Iron Barbs, and no matter what coverage move it runs it gets walled by Giratina, Giratina-O, Lugia, Skarmory and defensive Arceus-Ghost, all extremely common pokemon in ubers.

    A Choice set isn't good enough with just 100 base attack and STABs that are easily resisted.

    A Baton Pass set isn't viable either since the first thing Giratina and Lugia are going to do when they switch in is phazing it out.

    I'd say it belongs in D-rank.
  14. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo
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    I'm pretty sure that just because you can use something on the ladder (which is horrible) doesn't mean it deserves to be on the list. Stuff like Sawsbuck doesn't have the usage or attention to be relevant enough to be worth considering which rank it would be on. All of the D rank mons are guys that are/were used (but suck) or Ubers that are horribly outclassed.
  15. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    Isn't that E rank you're talking about?
    Stuff like Charizard who on paper can hit harder than Reshiram in the sun, but what happens in practice is it losing 50% HP from SR, Kyogre switching in, and then Charizard either dying or being forced out only to die when it switches in again.

    According to the OP:
    There's a difference between "not very effective" and "unviable".

    Also, what exactly deserves to be ranked and what doesn't? I don't think usage alone should be a reason.
    Nobody uses Deoxys-N yet it's on the list. The same can be said about several Arceus formes.
    Why would Charizard and Shedinja deserve to be on this list just to state how terrible they are while things like Sawsbuck, who are obviously better, can't?
  16. Gogeta

    Gogeta

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    Point taken about the ladder, but what you're describing sounds more like E rank. Sawsbuck has a niche in Ubers: A lightning fast weather sweeper that can hit on most Ubers softer defense. While bulky ghosts give it problems, doesn't every physical sweeper in Ubers struggle against them (bar Rayquaza, that thing is crazy)? Even CB Groudon can't break through Giratina without getting burned, so I don't see how that singles out Sawsbuck. A simple set of SD, Return, Horn Leech and Jump Kick makes for a very potent late game sweeper, due to Sawsbuck's blistering speed under the sun.

    Can I assume you haven't tried Sawsbuck, or would that be incorrect of me? If not, then I encourage it. To say that the best Chlorophyll abuser in Ubers shouldn't be ranked, when completely worthless shit like Charizard is (even if it is there to tell people how bad it is, it still implies 'Zard is better than Buck), is kind of... "narrow minded", I guess. I don't mean to insult there, I just can't think of a better way to put it.

    C Rank was mainly just to get people talking, but if we're ranking Shedinja, then I'm adamant Sawsbuck is at least D rank.

    By the way, some calcs just to show Sawsbuck's decent power even without an SD.
    Show Hide
    252+ Atk Life Orb Sawsbuck Horn Leech vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Groudon: 166-198 (41.08 - 49%) -- 76.56% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes
    252+ Atk Life Orb Sawsbuck Return vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 218-257 (52.53 - 61.92%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Life Orb Sawsbuck Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-W: 283-335 (72.37 - 85.67%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Life Orb Sawsbuck Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo: 218-257 (61.58 - 72.59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb Sawsbuck Return vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Palkia: 220-261 (68.53 - 81.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes
    252+ Atk Life Orb Sawsbuck Return vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Rayquaza: 242-285 (68.94 - 81.19%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Life Orb Sawsbuck Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Reshiram: 199-235 (58.35 - 68.91%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes
    252+ Atk Life Orb Sawsbuck Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin-S: 253-298 (74.19 - 87.39%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
  17. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo
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    What I'm talking about when referring to usage is for deciding that line between putting Pokemon that are relevant to Ubers on the list and putting all 700+ mons somewhere because we have to classify things. Sawsbuck is still not much more than just another random, there's no need to tell people how well it does in the ubers environment because almost nobody uses it.

    As for my comment on D rank, I was just giving the example of the lowest possible rank and why they should be there and Sawsbuck shouldn't. Although mons like Gastrodon are bad, it still is somewhat relevant to Ubers because it built up a reputation as a Kyogre counter.

    And no, I described accurately D rank. E rank is specifically created to tell people to stop using mons that some idiots have actually managed to make it common enough to be relevant. D rank are mons that actually have something to do in Ubers (whether it is some silly niche like Gastrodon or their status as Ubers like Deoxys N) but are still very bad picks and the bottom of the barrel. There's no good reason to use something like Gastrodon/Deo N. It is sheer stupidity to put something like Shedninja or Charizard on your team.
  18. Gogeta

    Gogeta

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    This is a quote I take particular issue with.

    Why does usage matter when we're discussing the viability of a pokemon? It doesn't matter if a poke gets 1% usage or 100% usage if it can do its job effectively. As you said yourself, the ladder is complete ass, which further proves that viability and usage aren't necessarily correlated.

    Look at Bisharp. That is a solid C rank pokemon (in my eyes it could even be B rank.) Yet in this month's usage statistics, it trails in at a measly 122 iirc. Does that make Bisharp unviable, or not worth ranking because so few people use it? I wouldn't say so, as it turns out Bisharp is quite the underrated threat.

    In fact, I propose the exact opposite. We must rank rare or underrated threats in order to encourage a diverse and enjoyable metagame. I completely understand the mindset of not wanting to add pokes that are irrelevant or just terrible, and indeed they are numerous, but the diamonds in the rough need to be added.

    Sawsbuck is not just a random poke I've pulled out my ass. I've tested it extensively. And I can conclude that Sawsbuck is essentially a faster, weaker, sun version of Kabutops. SD and good coverage make it a potent late game threat (it really does lack the beef to run CB though) or revenge killer. Nothing with a physical defense stat below 95 is really safe from Sawsbuck.

    Sawsbuck's niche is apparent: A powerful late game cleaner/revenge killer for sun teams that don't/can't afford to use a choice scarfer. That would put it at least in D rank.
  19. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo
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    Except things like Bisharp have actual analyses. Ladder is ass I agree but even among the players that are good Sawsbuck doesn't seen any play. It may very well have potential but it isn't yet widely recognized and therefor is not yet relevant to be included in the list. You could mention it to Furai though as a potential candidate for the next Research Week.
  20. puregenius

    puregenius

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    Calling it the best chlorophyll user is a stretch for me. I'd sooner use venusaur, jumpluff or even victreebel over sawsbuck

    I've used sawsbuck before and just let me say he blows
    You are majorly cockblocked by the biggest walls and pretty much everything can ohko u, while u can't ohko in return. Even if u do manage to get an sd boost somehow, gira just comes and phases u out
    Sure we should rank every underrated threat, but the thing is sawsbuck isn't a threat

    Sawsbuck comes nowhere close to being as good as tops
    1) tops resists normal so it can revenge ekiller
    2) tops has spin
    3) tops has a stab that stacks with the weather

    Usage is very important to ranking threats like sawsbuck
    E rank is basically just things that shouldn't be used, but are
    D rank are for mons that were viable at one point, but the tier shifted against their favour
    Sawsbuck isn't used and terrible, it's just terrible, so it isn't e rank
    Sawsbuck was never viable so it doesn't fit in d rank
    Etc
    Therefore he should not be ranked

    On an unrelated note claydol should be ranked here
    He is the only common spinner that outright counters groudon
    In fact he is the only spinner which even stands a chance against groudon
    Exca, forre, tops and tenta are all ohkoed (depending on the spread and item)
    He's not a bad mon for rain teams who need a groudon counter and spinner in one
  21. Melee Mewtwo

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    Claydol doesn't see any significant usage either and on top of that

    252+ Atk Life Orb Groudon Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 255+ Def Claydol in sun: 136-161 (41.97 - 49.69%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    252+ Atk Groudon Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 255+ Def Claydol in sun: 105-124 (32.4 - 38.27%) -- 1.86% chance to 3HKO

    0 SpA Claydol Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Groudon: 112-134 (32.74 - 39.18%) -- 99.83% chance to 3HKO
  22. puregenius

    puregenius

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    Hmm strange I remember those calcs to be different
    Must've been for support don or double dance
  23. Gogeta

    Gogeta

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    Seeing as we're not adding niche stuff then, can I suggest we remove certain pokes from the list?

    Lucario, Charizard, Shedinja, Dugtrio and Venusaur all add nothing to the Ubers metagame, so there is no reason for them to even be D rank.

    Also how is Shiftry C rank but Sawsbuck is not even worthy of E rank?
  24. Melee Mewtwo

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    I never said anything about niche mons, I said irrelevant mons. Sawsbuck doesn't have an analysis in BW (like Venusaur) nor DPP (like Lucario) and neither does it see any remotely significant play (like Charizard). Again, if you want to try to increase its popularity to the point that it isn't a random Pokemon any more you should try suggesting it to Furai as a possible candidate for the next research week.
  25. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    Shiftry is C-rank because it's the best Chlorophyll sweeper in ubers. Unlike Sawsbuck's nearly useless Normal STAB it gets Sucker Punch which allows it to beat the common psychic and ghost types in ubers such as Mewtwo and Arceus-Ghost.
    Even without sun, if they want to play mindgames with Calm Mind instead of attacking they risk eating a STAB Dark Pulse instead.

    Shiftry can run a mixed or swpecial set if it wants, allowing it to KO Forretress and Ferrothorn with HP Fire, so it's not nearly as monodimensional as Sawsbuck is.

    Personally, I would run Growth, Sucker Punch and Dark Pulse on a mixed set. The last move can be either HP Fire or Seed Bomb depending on whether you want to beat Kyogre or Ferrothorn/Forretress more. Low Kick and Grass Knot are also options.

    Let's say your opponent thinks you're going to Sucker Punch (maybe because you used it earlier on something else) and tries to phaze you with Giratina or Lugia:

    +2 200+ SpA Life Orb Shiftry Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 80 SpD Lugia: 359-424 (86.29 - 101.92%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

    +2 200+ SpA Life Orb Shiftry Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Giratina: 471-556 (93.63 - 110.53%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

    Also, in the sun:

    +2 200+ SpA Life Orb Shiftry Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Steel in sun: 416-491 (93.9 - 110.83%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

    +2 200+ SpA Life Orb Shiftry Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Dialga in sun: 201-238 (49.75 - 58.91%) -- 73.44% chance to 2HKO

    I'd say Shiftry is definitely C-rank material.

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