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Gen 5 The Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Now Taking Write-Ups)

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Tobes, Oct 27, 2012.

  1. Jimmyftw

    Jimmyftw

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    Yes, Lugia is spike bait to a lot of Pokemon, most walls are anyway. But is it really C-rank? Deoxy-D without spike is completely outclass by Lugia. Also, Lugia WALLS Ekiller, Ho-oh, most Lati@s, Garchomp, Palkia, Dialga, Rayquaza, Reshiram, Giratina-o among others.

    And I wouldn't use Ho-oh to beat Lugia due to Sacred Fire's low PPs and the risk of burning Lugia (a burned Lugia cannot be poison, the best way to deal with Lugia).

    Also, now with Multiscale, although very hard to utilize, can be activated via roost and can allow Lugia to take very powerful hits.

    I would say Lugia for mid B at the least.
  2. Melee Mewtwo

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    Of course Deo-D would be trash without Spikes, but that's not the case so there's no point in using him as a justification to move Lugiass up.

    Yes, a lot of walls are Spikes bait. However, none of the walls ranked above Lugiass are as weak to Spikes setters as he is, some even outright beat them.

    With Stealth Rock up, Lugiass can't be used to safely counter much besides weak things like Ekiller. Even the things that it does manage to have enough bulk to manage can easily get past him with a single double switch that prevents him from Roosting off the SR damage. (speaking of which, having to heal off SR makes it really easy to bring in your response)

    Yeah, if you manage to find the opportunity to get Lugiass in safely and start SubRoosting he can be a pain to force out. All he's going to do though is sit there and phaze until any Rapid Spinner waltz in and clears the hazards. (or he gets hit by Toxic, Taunted, Subbed on if Dtail, or however else you want to get rid of it after you had the chance to set all your Spikes up)
  3. superstar

    superstar

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    Most walls, such as Deo-D, Ho-Oh, Kyogre, and Groudon, are able to deal with hazard setters in one way or another. The exceptions are Giratina-A, who can spinblock so it can actually effectively phaze, and Chansey, who walls more things than Lugia and is thus slightly higher.

    Lugia takes 67% from a +2 (Lum) Ekiller Shadow Claw so it is getting torched if SR is up. Latias and Latios love to run Thunder and Lugia can't sponge Draco Meteors effectively. Palkia always runs Thunder and rain boosted Lustrous Hydro Pump murders Lugia anyway. Rayquazza beats it with LO Draco Meteor, SD, or Dragon Dance (i.e. all its sets). Resharim has Turboblaze and wrecks Lugia with Sun-boosted Blue Flare.
  4. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo
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    Eh? Are we assuming standard Lugiass or a max speed Timid? That calc fits for the latter but the former gives you this: +2 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus-Normal ExtremeSpeed vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Lugia: 205-243 (49.27 - 58.41%) -- 64.45% chance to 2HKO (everything else is fine though)
  5. SmashBrosBrawl

    SmashBrosBrawl

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    Arceus could very well be treated as one pokemon since it is one pokemon after all. There are no ''formes'' he is just activating its ability to change types depending on its held item. Iirc he only had one analysis when he was released in d/p/pt that only covered the useful types. Anyway i feel genesect should be S-Rank considering its the best scarfer in the game, has excellent coverage and is general hard to deal with due to u-turn and the threat of explosion that is always something to keep in mind when switching on it. Gene can simply fit on any team due to being an excellent revenge killer/scouter, if not the best one.
    Hack and Bossness like this.
  6. effyouzion

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    Gene is good but he's no Kyogre or Arceus. I think he's fine as a high A with Groudon, Dialga and G-O. They're all really powerful pokes that are guaranteed to do their job.

    I really like Lugia but he doesn't have enough resistances to be the beast he can be. I do have a sand stall team with both Lugia and Giratina, but Giratina is wayyyyyyy more useful than Lugia because he can abuse his resistances. Even my Ferrothorn gets used more often to wall things than Lugia. Lugia fills an important niche as my whirlwind phaser (Giratina uses dragon tail) so that sub+setup sweepers don't rape me, and he checkmates Rayquaza with those defenses and ice beam. But he's really more of an accessory rather than a main piece of my team. His rank seems fine to me.

    I don't like Skarmory's rank (too high imo) or Deoxys-D (way too high, should NOT be higher than Lugia). Deoxys-D is literally the worst uber imo.
  7. Melee Mewtwo

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    I think I may have talked about Skarmory a page ago or something but he's a Pokemon with an excellent typing, solid defenses and loads of utility. He's definitely just as good as Ferrothorn and Forretress, he just brings some different things to the table. (phazing, Taunt, recovery, typing)

    Deoxys-D should be higher than Lugiass seeing as he maintains the bulk to pull off impressive feats on the special side of things (most of the time he can tank 2 consecutive DMs from Latios) and actually has utility that he brings to the team. (Spikes, Taunt, even Magic Coat if you really want it) He's not as good as the three other defensive Spikes setters but he definitely has a solid niche.
    zzzzzzzzzzz likes this.
  8. effyouzion

    effyouzion

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    I just never liked Skarmory in ubers. Not denying that he stands out, but I would just rather have Ferrothorn unless my team was already loaded with pokes to take draco meteors and spacial rends but was somehow still weak to Groudon and Excadrill.

    Deoxys-D just has a really small niche compared to the other spikers, and as a general wall he's worse than Lugia. Ferro could take those DMs better than Deo-D for sure.
  9. Melee Mewtwo

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    The two DMs was just an example to demonstrate his raw bulk, to make a fairer comparison to Ferrothorn, two HP Fires from the same Latios under Rain barely avoids the 2HKO with SR up (still has a sliver of a chance) which is a fair bit weaker than two neutral DMs. Deoxys-D's bulk definitely has merit so access to reliable recovery, Taunt, and a completely different typing (Ferrothorn isn't stopping Mewtwo for example) carves Deoxys-D a significant niche in comparison to the other Spikers. As for Deo-D vs Lugiass my points remain since Deo-D vs Ferro is completely irrelevant in that comparison. Lugiass introduces a significant amount of risk while providing very little benefits to his team. Deoxys-D is a sound Pokemon that just lacks the typing to be as generally useful as a Ferrothorn or Skarmory. (Psychic is only nice for specific threats)
  10. Worldtour

    Worldtour aka Swamp-Rocket
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    They all had separate analyses last gen too.

    Also most of the Arceus types perform separate roles, so combining them is a pretty bad idea.

    Also, I believe Skarmory would give Deoxys-D a bit of competition? It has a generally better typing that gives it a lot of resistances anyway, and access to a phazing move while Skarm still gets Taunt, Spikes, and instant recovery as well? Considering bulk is the reason to use Deoxys-D, that seems like it has pretty stiff competition, although Deoxys-D is def. harder to take down with neutral hits
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2013
  11. Melee Mewtwo

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    (There's also the point that the fact that it's just an ability activation is irrelevant. Meloetta forme changes with an attack activation.)

    Yeah, all the Spikers give Deo-D competition. It really comes down to the niche typing that lets it cover stuff Mewtwo, Fightcues, Latios and other assorted neutral hits. (While still being a overall solid mon)
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2013
  12. SmashBrosBrawl

    SmashBrosBrawl

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    Meloetta formes are officially named and recognized as such by gamefreak, while arceus is only said to change types. I see no difference between a spooky plate arceus and a zap plate arceus compared to a scarf palkia and a lustruous orb palkia. In both cases the same pokemon is using different items to fill different roles. Of course our definition of formes may be different but that doesnt change the fact that arceus is not officially recognized as having formes.
  13. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo
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    http://puu.sh/3VIbk.jpg
    http://puu.sh/3VIaM.jpg
    http://puu.sh/3VIcd.jpg
    http://puu.sh/3VIeu.jpg

    According to the pokemon.com Pokedex, Meloetta's other forme isn't even worth mentioning unlike Arceus'. If you go by the cards there is no name difference for formes at all. (with exception to the Kyurems and Deoxys during one specific set) If you go by the games the names don't change when you forme change either. All that to say that the Pokemon company is inconsistent and whatever name details are irrelevant. The subject is not even relevant to this thread as regrouping them all under the title of Arceus doesn't accomplish anything besides the satisfaction of placing it in the S rank. Type changes are a fundamental change between Arceus formes (regardless of whether it is an effect of a move, ability, item or interaction) and that is enough for us to differentiate them.

    Anyways, I haven't forgotten to add the niche Pokemon, remove those without analyses, put things in alphabetical order, etc. I'll hopefully be getting to that stuff soon so feel free to continue discussion.
  14. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo
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    Okay so I made some updates; colored Arceus formes, alphabetical order, removed Luke and Duggy, and added new mons.

    Gyarados (Low C): Not exceptional but not terrible. One of the few things that can actually safely switch into SD Rayquaza and has a nifty typing in general. The stall breaker set is nice since Taunt is always good but it's lack of recovery and SR weakness really hurts it. Basically a really poor man's Giratina-O (niche being it's not Dragon weak which counts).

    Bronzong (High D): It's got a really cool typing with Levitate! Unfortunately, the good things stop there as it has subpar defensive stats for Ubers, no recovery, and no way to actually deal significant damage (besides Toxic and Explosion, yay). Major setup fodder, doesn't do shit, still has a cool typing though.

    Sableye (High C): It's not spectacular but it just has sooooo many little niches everywhere. It can spinblock fairly well, it can Taunt shit, it has solid punch with Foul Play, and Prankster WoW is amazing. It can actually support the team and even when it's about to go down it can send a farewell burn. (plus it trolls EKiller)

    Cresselia (Mid C): It's a really bulky wall that has a lot of potential. Sadly, it's recovery is ass and it doesn't really have anything to stop it from being giant setup fodder. Would be cool but fuck 8 PP Moonlight.

    Heracross (Low C): It dicks with Darkrai, has nice, strong STABs with good coverage, a solid attack stat, and Moxie if you want. Nichey critter but it can at least do some things that are cool.

    Magnezone (Mid C): Trapping is really gay and trapping steels is a really nasty surprise for certain teams, especially since most of them don't even consider the threat of Magnezone. It's got some cool resists and a strong Sp.Atk so it's not totally useless outside of the trapping niche. Mostly not worth the slot but can be a real downer once you see you are playing against it in team preview.

    Whimsicott (Mid D): An annoying ball of shit. Correction, an annoying, useless ball of shit.

    For the most part I don't want to add anything that doesn't already have an analysis. This is mostly to make sure it passes through quality control but also because I plan on linking everybody's analysis in the list itself. (Plus it encourages you guys to come to C&C) Feel free to debate what's there, the lower tiers I'm pretty wiggly on for the most part.

    The updated list is here, btw.
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  15. sammao

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    I agree with all the newly ranked monster except for Bronzong. In the past, I would agree that it is D rank. However, I have used Choice Band Zong (yeah I know it is not in analysis, but it works) a lot recently and I must say it is better than both of its on site set. A Band min speed Brave Zong's Gyro Ball does more than 50% to 252 hp Arceus-Ghost, meaning that Band Zong is a great check to it. Moreover, it check Extreme Killer better than any of other Zong set, check Mewtwo, Darkari (after sleep), Garchomp, Kyreum-W, Groudon, and a lot others. It fits very well on offensive team that need to check all these monster at once. Furthermore, Levitate PLUS SR resist is a great boon, especially on a Choice Bander. Trick allows you to cripple wall you can't get past. And I know Kyogre and Ho-oh are difficult to deal with, but at least you have explosion or Rock Slide to hit them on the switch should the need arise. Really, I think Band Zong is its best set and it alone is already worth C rank. THEN you should consider that it has two other possible sets to run, and thus Bronzong really shouldn't be a D rank monster.

    Bronzong is definitely not just a defensive/support monster, it has a way to deal significant damages, and is not a set up fodder, that is what the choice band set does.
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2013
  16. Melee Mewtwo

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    Oh, this sounds interesting enough. What's the exact set and spread you are using?

    Edit: This is a nice set and definitely worth looking into.
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2013
  17. superstar

    superstar

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    This is actually one of the cooler ideas I've seen. I tested it out with a 252 HP/ 252 Atk/ 4 Def, Brave, and Gyro Ball/Earthquake/Explosion/Trick and I'll be dammed if it didn't do a lot of work.

    Some very impressive stuff it did:
    252+ Atk Choice Band Bronzong Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 152-179 (44.44 - 52.33%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    --can't take a hit but abosutely ruins Specs if it switches in
    252+ Atk Choice Band Bronzong Gyro Ball (147 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Ghost: 262-309 (59 - 69.59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    --meanwhile is only taking around 47% max from unboosted Judgement, or 4HKO'd by LO Shadow Claw from Ekiller!
    252+ Atk Choice Band Bronzong Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dialga: 238-280 (58.91 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    --meanwhile is only 3HKO'd by 56 SAtk Modest Dialga Fire Blast in Rain
    252+ Atk Choice Band Bronzong Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo: 340-402 (96.04 - 113.55%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    --Mewtwo CAN barely 2HKO with LO Fire Blast in Rain
    252+ Atk Choice Band Bronzong Gyro Ball (86 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Giratina-O: 178-211 (40.36 - 47.84%) -- 58.98% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    --If Gira-O doesn't have Will-O-Wisp/Sunny HP Fire it is screwed
    252+ Atk Choice Band Bronzong Gyro Ball (91 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Groudon: 111-132 (27.47 - 32.67%) -- possible 4HKO after Stealth Rock
    --Unfortunately, can really only beat Groudon if it lacks Fire Punch, does 3HKO Giratina after SR but is easily PP Stalled -- but you can Trick both those guys in addition to Skarmory.

    Plus you get trick so it's not dead weight against stall teams

    This is a brilliant set, go check it out guys
    sammao, Furai and Melee Mewtwo like this.
  18. puregenius

    puregenius

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    If u want a surprise bander, there are better things like ferro who has higher Atk and bulk + lower speed, not to mention being able to check kyogre
    Don't get me wrong though, it's tr set is good enough to warrant low c imo
    Being able to set up tr and a layer of rocks or just explode out for a free switch is really cool
  19. Melee Mewtwo

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    CB Ferrothorn is missing Trick which matters a lot for things Skarmory as well as other assorted coverage moves like Rock Slide and Earthquake. There's also the opportunity cost of not using a far better Spikes Ferrothorn set. Although the typings accomplish different things, being grounded on top of super Spikes fodder really hurts CB Ferrothorn while it is less of an issue for CB Bronzong. (who also has Trick and Earthquake to be less of Spikes fodder) I think the set is definitely worth looking into.
  20. puregenius

    puregenius

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    I would say trick is significant, but not the coverage moves
    Bulldoze still 3hkos dia and ohkos heatran
    Rock slide is only worth using vs ho and gyro 3hkos while explosion ohkos ho oh already, so u will never be set up fodder for ho oh
    Unlike bronzong, ferro can ohko kyogre and 2hko groudon
    And if anything, both pokemon are spikes fodder
    Even after trick, they can still get down 2 layers (assuming trick and switch)
    Ferro on the other hand can set up spikes alongside them so it's not really free spikes for them, although u do have to give up explosion

    So yeh, a single move (trick) to carve out a niche seems...

    Show Hide
    on a related note, I used to run rest talk bronzong on my hazard resistant stall
    It was terrible lol
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2013
  21. Melee Mewtwo

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    Lame, Earthquake was disappointing outside of the 2HKO on Dialga. Rock Slide is also a pretty lame move to lock yourself into so you might as well Explode on Ho-Oh. Eh, still worth testing.
  22. SmashBrosBrawl

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    Bronzong type is reason enough to consider it over ferrothorn as a choice bander, its only 2x weak to fire and is neutral to fighting meaning it can afford to tank those kinds of hits if it needs to. Trick is pretty cool too and being immune to spikes is crucial. Definitely worth a look.
  23. sammao

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    I have no computer access for the past few days, but anyway.

    CB Ferrothorn vs CB Bronzong

    Ferro advantage
    -Better stats overall
    -handles Kyogre, Groudon, hippowdon, Kingdra and Zekrom better (list is not comprehensive, just some notable once)
    -Iron Barb damages
    -Slower, which means a slightly more powerful Gyro Ball

    Bronzong advantage
    -Spike immune
    -handles Kyreum (Ferro neutral to Ice), Mewtwo, Darkari and Ghost Arceus (due to Focus Blast), Terrakion, Fighting and Ground Arceus, and Garchomp better (Again list is not comprehensive)
    -EQ>Bulldoze
    -Trick, which allows it to cripple important walls like Skarm, Giratina, and Lugia that Ferro has no hope to break

    As you can see both handle quite different (but arguably equally important) targets. But most importantly, being a choice user, spike immune is soooooo good. Both of them tend to switches quite often in a match, and spike immune allow it to switches in and out a lot easier than Ferro in this spikes heavy meta. I am not arguing CB Zong>CB Ferro, as again they are different. I am just arguing Zong should not be D.

    Most of the time (Like 80%) you only use Gyro Ball. You can argue Ferro has Power Whip additionally to hit stuff with but like I mentioned above Zong can switch into things like Mewtwo easier. Yes EQ and RS is not good to lock into, but you should only use Gyro Ball most of the time anyway.


    Last edited: Aug 17, 2013
  24. puregenius

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    Btw the definition of check I'll be going by is 'can switch in once and force out/ko'

    The problem with the list of things that bronzong supposedly handles well, is that he 2hkoed by almost all of them so he cant switch in
    Just from the most common sets:

    Dark pulse from lo darkrai 2hkos
    Aura sphere from lo mewtwo 3hkos (fire blast ohkos)
    Cc from scarf terra 2hkos
    Fusion/earth power from Specs kyu ohkos and focus blast/meteor 2hkos
    Judgment from 252 spa ghostceus 2hkos

    Sure u take on groundceus, chomp and fightceus better, but all are so rare they're hardly worth mentioning (except fightceus who is slightly more common)

    Yes ferro loses to the above, but guess what, so does zong

    Ferro on the other hand can actually check what he is supposed to thanks to resistances

    Again, going from the most common sets:

    He isn't 2hkoed by scarf ogre, scarf zek, lo kingdra
    I could expand on this list but Im on my phone and its 430am so I cbf

    Eq isn't nearly as big of a deal as u make it out to be
    While eq 2hkos dia, bulldoze 3hkos, which is enough to deter him from switching
    Gyro ball 2hkos gene anyway so lacking eq doesn't even matter there
    Rachi is 2hkoed by bulldoze with spikes and rocks

    Lugia is 2hkoed by gyro after rocks from ferro js
    But yes trick does make a difference vs skarm and gira

    Mm brought this up earlier, but sometimes it's better to explode, than to be locked into a weak move

    They do check different things
    Ferro checks kyogre, zong checks garchomp

    Zong dies to pretty much the entire offensive metagame, but does better vs defensive threats
    Ferro can check some key threats, but loses to some defensive threats

    Given how offensive the current meta is, I'd say zong is sorely outclassed
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  25. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo
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    Another point shrang brought up is that it also has competetion from CB Metagross, lol. I'll still playtest it sometime and I'm open to more imput about Bronzong's placement in general but I don't see this set really changing things that much for him.
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