The Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Now Taking Write-Ups)

Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by Tobes, Oct 27, 2012.

  1. SmashBrosBrawl

    SmashBrosBrawl

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    Bronzong type is reason enough to consider it over ferrothorn as a choice bander, its only 2x weak to fire and is neutral to fighting meaning it can afford to tank those kinds of hits if it needs to. Trick is pretty cool too and being immune to spikes is crucial. Definitely worth a look.
  2. sammao

    sammao

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    I have no computer access for the past few days, but anyway.

    CB Ferrothorn vs CB Bronzong

    Ferro advantage
    -Better stats overall
    -handles Kyogre, Groudon, hippowdon, Kingdra and Zekrom better (list is not comprehensive, just some notable once)
    -Iron Barb damages
    -Slower, which means a slightly more powerful Gyro Ball

    Bronzong advantage
    -Spike immune
    -handles Kyreum (Ferro neutral to Ice), Mewtwo, Darkari and Ghost Arceus (due to Focus Blast), Terrakion, Fighting and Ground Arceus, and Garchomp better (Again list is not comprehensive)
    -EQ>Bulldoze
    -Trick, which allows it to cripple important walls like Skarm, Giratina, and Lugia that Ferro has no hope to break

    As you can see both handle quite different (but arguably equally important) targets. But most importantly, being a choice user, spike immune is soooooo good. Both of them tend to switches quite often in a match, and spike immune allow it to switches in and out a lot easier than Ferro in this spikes heavy meta. I am not arguing CB Zong>CB Ferro, as again they are different. I am just arguing Zong should not be D.

    Most of the time (Like 80%) you only use Gyro Ball. You can argue Ferro has Power Whip additionally to hit stuff with but like I mentioned above Zong can switch into things like Mewtwo easier. Yes EQ and RS is not good to lock into, but you should only use Gyro Ball most of the time anyway.


    Last edited: Aug 17, 2013
  3. puregenius

    puregenius

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    Btw the definition of check I'll be going by is 'can switch in once and force out/ko'

    The problem with the list of things that bronzong supposedly handles well, is that he 2hkoed by almost all of them so he cant switch in
    Just from the most common sets:

    Dark pulse from lo darkrai 2hkos
    Aura sphere from lo mewtwo 3hkos (fire blast ohkos)
    Cc from scarf terra 2hkos
    Fusion/earth power from Specs kyu ohkos and focus blast/meteor 2hkos
    Judgment from 252 spa ghostceus 2hkos

    Sure u take on groundceus, chomp and fightceus better, but all are so rare they're hardly worth mentioning (except fightceus who is slightly more common)

    Yes ferro loses to the above, but guess what, so does zong

    Ferro on the other hand can actually check what he is supposed to thanks to resistances

    Again, going from the most common sets:

    He isn't 2hkoed by scarf ogre, scarf zek, lo kingdra
    I could expand on this list but Im on my phone and its 430am so I cbf

    Eq isn't nearly as big of a deal as u make it out to be
    While eq 2hkos dia, bulldoze 3hkos, which is enough to deter him from switching
    Gyro ball 2hkos gene anyway so lacking eq doesn't even matter there
    Rachi is 2hkoed by bulldoze with spikes and rocks

    Lugia is 2hkoed by gyro after rocks from ferro js
    But yes trick does make a difference vs skarm and gira

    Mm brought this up earlier, but sometimes it's better to explode, than to be locked into a weak move

    They do check different things
    Ferro checks kyogre, zong checks garchomp

    Zong dies to pretty much the entire offensive metagame, but does better vs defensive threats
    Ferro can check some key threats, but loses to some defensive threats

    Given how offensive the current meta is, I'd say zong is sorely outclassed
    Sweep likes this.
  4. Melee Mewtwo

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    Another point shrang brought up is that it also has competetion from CB Metagross, lol. I'll still playtest it sometime and I'm open to more imput about Bronzong's placement in general but I don't see this set really changing things that much for him.
    Magcargo 2 likes this.
  5. SmashBrosBrawl

    SmashBrosBrawl

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    Yeah i used it a little and i must say its bulk is disappointing without heavy investment and it suffers from being so slow. Not sure if ferrothorn is any better but cb bronzong definitely inst as good as i though.
  6. sammao

    sammao

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    Please don't assume Bronzong is a top rank pokemon, but it has solid niches, which is why I think it should be in C instead of D. BTW, I forgot to mention Deoxy-A (Zong handles better due to Superpower) and Palkia (Feero handle better)
    Levitate and Spike immune makes all the differences really. Zong also check Extremekiller and Groudon (again the list is long, but this two are notable once) much better. Moreover, like I mentioned before Zong has two other viable set unlike Metagross.
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2013
  7. puregenius

    puregenius

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    im not saying cb zong is a top mon, and sure it has its niche, but the niche is incredibly tiny
    between metagross and ferro, the only thing it has over the 2 is levitate

    bronzong is slow as balls
    while im sure uve all realised this, i dont think u understand what this entails
    it basically means bronzong will always take 2 hits before it can move or 1 if u get a free turn, but lets face it they are so rare and there are better things to abuse them
    suddenly, all those calcs become worthless
    who cares if you can ohko them if they beat u to the ko anyway?

    i guess ill address each of ur points individually since im on a computer now

    i guess the definition of check isnt clearly defined so it s fairly subjective
    i just like to assume the worst when theorymoning/team building, doing so means stuff like this:
    doesnt happen

    as i have mentioned before, fire blast ohkos, so even if u do ohko back, u will get beaten to the punch

    considering pretty much all terras are scarfed except lead sets (which die early game), if he can switch into a stone edge, he can easily force it out
    so yes, by ur definition ferro can check terra
    the one time u win vs terra when ferro doesnt is if u get a free switch in, which as i have said earlier can be put to better use with other stuff

    ill concede that, zong definitely takes kyu better, but my point is he doesnt beat kyu well unlike some things might due to the fact he must take 2 hits

    i dont understand the point of this
    u ultimately still lose one on one and thats only if he decides not to cm first
    if he goes straight for the judgment, zong dies and ghostceus remains unscathed
    hardly a convincing argument
    as for the 252hp variants, ull do slightly better since they have to take a hit, but ultimately u still lose 1v1

    id actually argue zong takes groundceus better since he resists pretty much every common move from both sets (eq, se, judgment, ice beam), while ferro still takes neutral damage from eq/judge, but again uncommon as balls

    i dont think u understand my point lol
    sure eq is a better atk in general, but in what specific situations will this extra damage actually be significant?
    the one and only situation i can see is vs dia

    252+ Atk Choice Band Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Chansey: 373-439 (58.09 - 68.38%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    it hardly matters if u trick chansey when u can just straight out destroy it
    u do however bring up a good (counter) point

    252+ Atk Choice Band Bronzong Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Chansey: 200-236 (31.15 - 36.76%) -- 75.32% chance to 3HKO (gyro does less)
    252+ Atk Choice Band Bronzong Gyro Ball (101 BP) vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Lugia: 133-157 (31.97 - 37.74%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO

    unlike ferro who straight out beats them, zong cant win unless he tricks and without a band, his damage is just pitiful

    i think uve milked this cow for long enough lol, although i dont blame u
    levitate is not zongs main advantage, it is his only advantage
    without it, 9.9/10 ud be better off using metagross or ferro

    still, consider what spikes is for though
    it is used to get extra damage off so u can ko the opponent easier
    the problem with zong is that his bulk isnt good enough to take neutral hits, so regardless of spikes he will be 2hkoed by most of the tier

    after mm/shrang brought up cb metagross, i no longer see any reason to use cb zong
    ferro doesnt die to the entire tier and deals more damage, while meta has a better atk as well as bullet punch, which makes up for his shit speed, and more coverage options

    Show Hide
    i maintain zong should be moved up to low c for his tr set, but definitely not his cb set
  8. Melee Mewtwo

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    Another thing worth mentioning is that Dialga has a far superior TR set and Skarmory has all the benefits of Bronzong's typing plus a bunch of other goodies. I know we are only discussing how niche it is but DAMN is it really, really niche. With the million and two other options that do everything you would want out of it why on Earth would I pick Bronzong especially when it is only passable at the things it does?
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2013
    puregenius likes this.
  9. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Banned deucer.

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    Not sure how to use Hide. Someone tell me?

    Here is Darkrai:

    Darkrai is a definite pain in the neck in the Ubers. Despite pitiful bulk, it can easily set up using Nasty Plot by using an 80% accurate Sleep move on the opponent, allowing it to sweep. Bad Dreams boosts this even further, allowing him to break Sturdy and Focus Sash, which essentially kills Forretress and Skarmory. Sweeping is not the only thing it can do, as it can also run a Choice Scarf set, or run a Double Status set inducing sleep + paralysis, two status conditions that are really annoying in any metagame. Coming off of base 135 Special Attack and 120 base speed, Darkrai is a serious threat when executed properly. However, he has one major flaw: 70/90/90 bulk, while acceptable for RU or NU, is pathetic in such a Hyper Offensive metagame, and Darkrai is thus only really able to switch into Psychic-type attacks, courtesy of his immunity. As a result, he has very limited amounts of switch-ins because of how easily he can faint. However, despite these flaws, Darkrai is a major threat in this metagame that can easily shred teams apart that lack an appropriate check to it.
  10. Kingler12345

    Kingler12345 COOKIE COOKIE COOKIE STARTS WITH C
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    Not doing analyses now, but still.
  11. Flaming Facepalm

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    Deoxys-A anaylsis:


    Deoxys's attacking forme is downright brutal in terms of power and speed. Its blistering speed, unparalled 180 base attacking stats, and movepool that is vast, Deoxys-A is certainly a pokemon you should watch out for. One move that should always be on your moveset is Psycho Boost. A 140 Base Power STAB move like this is enough to make even the powerhouses of Ubers tremble in fear. Superpower is also a staple, as it allows you to exterminate Blobs and other annoying enemies, such as Dialga and Ferrothorn. After that, you can mix and match moves depending on your needs. For example, on a team lacking a revenge killer, ExtremeSpeed would be invaluable. Deoxys-A's true power comes in its versatility. This thing has a ludicrous movepool full of powerful attacks that kill anything you switch in thinking that it would be a viable counter, and it can punish you for switching out with Persuit. However, it's not all sunshine and armageddeon for this strand of DNA, for like a strand of DNA, it is fragile like one. Virtually any hit will OHKO Deoxys-A. Priority users like Arceus destroy you, and Base 90 Speed pokes with a Choice Scarf and a positive nature will outspeed and eliminate Deoxys-A, forcing you to switch out, which sacrifices valuable momentum. However, if used correctly, Deoxys-A is one of the most powerful pokemon in the Ubers metagame.
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2013
  12. Hack He Must

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    You make it sound MUCH better than it is, every scarfer who is faster (many of them are) and any priority picks off LO Deoxys-A with ease, and Sash Deoxys-A all out attack is walled by bulky Ghostceus, Ho-oh etc. What you also miss out on is its ability to lay down entry hazards, which is IMO its biggest niche as it provides more offensive pressure than Deoxys-S. Spikes+3 attacks, SR+attacks or SR+Spikes is very viable even though Deoxys-S is faster, since besides to offensive presence it brings to the table, it also bring Extremespeed+Dark Pulse (or Fire Punch) to better combat the likes of Custap Forretress and Deoxys-S itself.

    You must emphasize that Darkrai is one of the only acceptable hyper offensive solutions to Arceus-Ghost. It should top priority when describing Darkrai, since Arceus-Ghost is an S-rank mon. Almost equally important is to mention how it is checked, especially by the common scarfers; Genesect, Terrakion with Sleep Talk or the bulky tanks/walls that handle it, like Fightceus and specially defensive Kyogre (three of these mons are increasingly common). Saying that breaking Sturdy essentially kills Forretress and Skarmory is wrong, it's the Sleep that practically kills any threat you use it on due to the sleep mechanics. Switching into Psychic-type immunity isn't really worth mentioning as it is always prediction reliant against mons that use Psychic-type attacks. Latios (and Latias) can just smash something with Draco Meteor anyway, and if you get in on that while predicting Psyshock you just wasted your Darkrai. Mewtwo, the other user of a Psychic-move in the tier is faster and OHKOs with Aura Sphere after you get in on it. Instead, I'd emphasize other ways to get Darkrai into play, with the most common one being Genesect's or even Scizor's U-turn.

    In the end I'd also like a mention on how EVERY good team must have an answer to lead Darkrai. If your team just accepts that a mon will just "die" from Dark Void on turn one, then you are doing it wrong.
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2013
  13. Jimmyftw

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    I will have to disagree on that one since if you don't carry a sleep talker, one of your Pokemon will inevitably have to "die" from sleep. Every team does need a counter to Darkrai, however many good team don't carry a sleep talker and would be forced to sacrifice one of their mons to sleep.
  14. Melee Mewtwo

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    Okay, I wanna suggest some potential changes for discussion.

    The first is a resurrection of a dead horse for an additional beating; Terrakion for low A rank. I know it was sorta recently settled for B rank but that was before the introduction of high, mid, low sub categories. I think that now that we aren't trying to put it in the same place as guys like Latias and Giratina-O it's an open case again. That said I want to bring up the previous argument for B rank. (not trying to pick on you Polop, you just had the best counter argument)
    Show Hide

    The essential points made were:
    • Can not sweep without excessive support.
    • Outclassed as a revenge killer besides specific niches. (like beating up ekiller)
    I think both of these points are still valid. Terrakion is not prone to easy, support-free sweeps (sweeps in this case meaning something along the lines of a 6-0) and it does face a lot of competition in the role of a revenge killer from the likes of Genesect outside of some key niches like revenge killing ekilller. However, one aspect that I feel has been overlooked is Terrakion's extreme efficiency when it comes to late game cleaning in addition to its already solid revenge killing abilities.

    In a large majority of matches, Choice Scarf Terrakion is the fastest Pokemon in play. (as well as resistant to likely forms of priority present) This amazing speed is crucial to a cleaner as it forces the opponent to rely on defensive checks to it instead of moving past it with offensive momentum. For a Choice Scarfer, it's also far from weak. In fact, its Close Combat is stronger than LO Darkrai's Dark Pulse and is even capable of nearly always 2HKOing 252 HP Arceus formes with SR and one layer of Spikers (or just one smart double switch). Even Latios can't afford to switch in with SR up even once without running a high risk of being 2HKO'd later by Terrakion's resisted Close Combat. This means that it can very quickly remove safe switch-ins to itself by simply performing its role as a revenge killer early-/mid-game to become a threatening win condition late game. The lack of setup required is also a major boon for Terrakion as a cleaner as it doesn't have to fret about finding a free turn once the board is set. For offensive teams, it's not difficult to end up with decent 30/40% chunks missing from their Pokemon which is often times all that is needed for Terrrakion to end the game against teams lacking a Ghost-type. This is why I feel Terrakion is one of the biggest threats to offensive teams and often make a conscience effort to dedicate a slot to a reliably sturdy switch-in to him. (mostly a Ghost, not sure if anybody else does this)

    Speaking of offensive teams, Deo-S offense and standard sun offense (two very popular strategies atm) are particularly bothered by Terrakion. The former dislikes his ability to anti-lead their hazards lead by outspeeding and 2HKOing. (with a move that has a 30% flinch chance on top of everything) The later is often threatened by his Rock STAB that makes quick work of their Ho-Ohs (who also can't switch into Close Combat with SR) while Close Combat has a decent chance at 2HKOing offensive Groudon with just SR up. (meaning they have to be careful with their Ghost-type or end up in situations where they have no safe switch-in while Terrakion is threatening an immediate KO) Even Syrim sun offense has to keep the Arceus-Ghost in good condition as, once it is gone, Terrakion can just click Close Combat for kills when up against Darkrai or a slightly weakened Genesect.


    The next Pokemon movement I want to propose has to do with another common Choice Scarfer. As crazy as it sounds, I think Genesect should drop to mid A rank. Don't get me wrong, Genesect is a fantastic revenge killer. It's pretty safe to even say he is the best Choice Scarfer in the current metagame and since most teams want a Choice Scarfer, Genesect is on most teams. However, outside of that Genesect isn't noteworthy for anything else (first guy to say Shift Gear gets shot) which makes him the odd man out in the high A rank crowd. Every other mon in that group can fit in a variety of roles, both offensive and defensive, and are good at them. They are even solid switch-ins to some significant offensive threats. (okay ekiller is starting to be a fish out water but I'm not even going to go there) Genesect can't even take resisted Psystrikes well and Ray's boosted Espeed takes out at least 50% of his HP. As incredible of a Choice Scarf user as he is, I feel Genesect is just too one-sided. (and there are still a large amount of teams that don't use him, for one reason or another)

    Lastly, I want to propose Tornadus-T for a rise to mid B rank. Now I know this isn't a Pokemon that sees much use at all and this suggestion may just be fanboyism but I think that it's a really underrated Pokemon that deserves the position. He has a lot of uncommon tools at his disposal like U-Turn, Taunt, Regenerator, and STAB Hurricane that makes him pretty useful by bringing an assortment of valuable utility to the team. He also has an excellent base speed (121) that allows him to outspeed Arceus which is made even more useful by the fact that he safely 2HKOs bulky variants after SR thanks to that strong Hurricane and freedom to use LO without noticeable drawbacks. He's pretty self sufficient, too, with the only required support being Rain which is not only easy to supply but his Hurricane spamming abilities goes very nicely on Rain teams. (which typically have problems with the likes of Arceus-Grass) He does suffer from his fragility and is another one of those mons that is kill or be killed, but he hits surprisingly hard for something with only 115 SpAtk. (almost as hard as Mewtwo's Psystrike to put it in perspective) Tornadus-T is an overall low maintenance and effective Pokemon.
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2013
  15. Melee Mewtwo

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    No responses? That's too bad, I was hoping for feedback. (I can't tell if the likes means I agree or if you just find the idea of a Genesect drop hilarious) Anyways, I'm double posting to propose another, very radical, drop. (seeing as it's been a while since the last post it'll just be missed if I edit) I want to propose Kyurem-White to drop all the way down to high C rank.

    Yes, I know Kyu-W has incredible amounts of power and excellent offensive STABs, I'm not going to argue against that. However, what Kyurem doesn't have is the ability to capitalize on that massive offensive pressure. The shitty defensive typing, weakness to hazards, slow speed, and being outclassed (I'll get to this) all work against him and prevent him from actually putting his potential to use.

    Kyurem's defensive typing is really shitty. He can't be relied on to switch into anything which means he brings nothing to the team as far as defensive utility is concerned. (besides Arceus-Grass) This not only means that you can't count on him to keep anything in line (making things more difficult when teambuilding) but it also means Kyurem has a hard time sticking in on things and forcing them out. Things get worse for him when you factor in the fact that he is weak to a lot of common attacking types which means that, for the most part, anything faster than him will force him out.

    Sadly, a lot of things are faster than him. Sure, 90 base speed may be a benchmark in Ubers but it's also the lowest benchmark. All Kyurem's 95 base speed is doing is speed creeping the slugs of the metagame which certainly isn't bad but it's a long way off from what is needed out of something with such a shitty defensive typing. Being incapable of using his speed instead of typing to force mons out and create free turns for himself makes it even more difficult to actually use that 170 spatk of his.

    There's also that horrible hazards weakness to worry about. This does a huge number on Kyurem in a lot of different ways. First of all, it undermines the otherwise nice bulk and adds to the whole lack of good typing issue. Secondly, it limits the amount of times he can switch-in making it difficult for him to take advantage of his wall busting powers as he dies off too quick and still has to predict. (and DM drops will force him out) Lastly, it means that double switching becomes far more risky and difficult so you can't even solidly attempt to rely on luring out the likes of Giratina or Groudon to profit from. Sure, you can fix this somewhat with Rapid Spin/Magic Bounce support but that is further limiting your teambuilding process (remember, no defensive utility already) and it's not exactly night and day even when you do manage to keep SR away.

    So after all that, you are still left with a monster wall breaker that has nice bulk if you keep SR away and can punish Arceus-Grass hard which is a problem mon for a lot of the metagame. That would certainly enough to give Kyurem-W a solid, albeit niche, role in teambuilding if Kyurem-W didn't have such massive competition for that place. Namely, Ho-Oh and Dialga are almost always better picks over Kyurem. Dialga is a monster wallbreaker, too, when you give it things like Choice Specs. Sure, it'll have to predict a bit more than Kyurem-W but it largely makes up for that by being hazards resistant (which means much more switching in and no support required) and having a great defensive typing (which means it actually counts for something in teambuilding and can easily create free turns for itself). Ho-Oh is another deadly wall breaker that can fuck with Arceus-Grass (except Stone Edge variants but Kyu hates those too lol) and who also profits from the lack of SR. (significantly more than Kyurem-W) On top of that, but even with SR up he still has a lot of raw bulk and lack of excessively annoying weaknesses to serve as a solid check to most CM Arceus formes (Unlike Kyu who is setup fodder for them after a DM. Heck, even Specs Ice Beam isn't enough to stop 252 Arc formes from CMing on his ass) as well as an assortment of other special attackers. Yes, both of these mons are checked and countered by different things but this difference is rather small which makes it difficult to justify Kyurem-W over them. It still has some niche, though, which is why high C rank seems reasonable to me. (In fact I'd even go as far to consider him for mid C)
  16. ogasian

    ogasian

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    I second Melee Mewtwo's propiaition for Terrakion. IMO, I would even put it in High A if I couls get away with it. I havent used the Sd set yet, but I can tell you how fucking good the scarf set is. Here are some things it checks/ revenge kills:
    Darkrai
    Deoxys-S
    Deo-A if sash broken
    Skymin
    Kyogre- Can do 70 percent to scarf ogre
    Arceus Steel
    Extreme Killer
    Ho-Oh
    Palkia- does ~80 percent with cc
    Arceus Ice/ Fire but nobody uses those
    Kyurem W
    Kyurem Black
    Reshiram
    Omastar
    Genesect
    Tyrantitar
    Dialga
    Ferrothorn
    Pink Blobs
    Mewtwo
    Latias
    Latios
    Arceus Rock

    These are just the ones off the top of my head. Note that he cant switch in to most of these, but its revenge killing capabilities are amazing. Quite a long list of Ubers threats, isnt it?
  17. Rayquaza_

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    Kyu-W in C-rank is just flat out wrong. That thing is A-rank material.
    Its defensive type isn't that bad because steel, dragon and rock attacks are either uncommon or extremely predictable in ubers, while fighting is mostly UnSTAB'd and it can even survive Mewtwo's Aura Sphere with ease. It also has valuable water and electric resistances and it's one of the very few pokemon that can attempt to switch on Kyogre.
    Don't assume that Kyu-W is setup fodder after Draco Meteor because it can still run a mixed set (I have seen Kyu-W running Dragon Tail to mess up with CM users such as Arceus-Ghost) and even if it was specs'd there is still the highly safe and spammable Ice Beam that will often do the job just fine.
    95 base speed isn't much but in a tier where every single player will carry one or more base 90 uber (such as Dialga, Ho-oh and Groudon) it means Kyu-W has plenty of opportunities to score a free kill.

    Remember when people thought Kyu-B in OU was only good for Outrage spamming and getting revenge killed by some steel/fighting type? After people realized it has 120 Sp.Atk and solid bulk they finally realized its potential and now it's considered one of the best pokemon in the tier.
    Kyu-W finds itself in a similiar position in ubers. Specs DM spam is obscenely powerful so people are now prepared for it (specially defensive Kyogre is used a lot more often now because of this) but it's not all its good for. It can run a bulkier spread to surprise things that fail to revenge kill it and it can run Outrage/Dragon Tail to mess up with anything after a Sp.Atk drop. Haban Berry is also extremely good in ubers where most players will attempt to revenge kill Kyu-W with a faster dragon type. Finally it can invest in physical defense to thwart Genesect's plans to revenge kill it with Iron Head.

    I also strongly disagree with Dialga and Ho-oh outclassing Kyu-W. The former has trouble against the common Ferrothorn/Giratina-O core: if it's choiced it has a 50/50 chance to be forced out (while Kyu-W can spam Ice Beam and not giving a damn) and if it's not it's walled by a ton of crap like Tentacruel or Lugia (unless it's raining and it has Thunder, but now it's starting to get non-negligible support).
    Ho-oh on the other hand has massive trouble against rain teams and Zekrom can for the most part switch on it with ease.
    Dialga and Ho-oh are both good but I don't see how they directly compete with Kyu-W.

    SR is pretty much the only thing that prevents it to be S-rank, much like Ho-oh, but unlike Ho-oh it doesn't have a 4x weakness to it. Spin support is highly useful but not absolutely mandatory and Kyu-W will almost always score at least a free kill or two.
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2013
  18. Melee Mewtwo

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    Responses in bold
    Some additional discussion points (other's suggestions from IRC):
    Mence up to mid B: It's a really good cleaner but I'm personally against it cause I feel it suffers too much from its SR weakness, Outrage confusion, and ineffectiveness against certain team types (stall or offense with terrakion, sorta) to really get the bump. Yeah I know support fixes these issues but the need for that support is what bothers me.

    Dragon Arceus down to high C: I don't have much experience with Drag arc so I'm open to other opinions, I wasn't really given much of a reason to drop it besides that person's personal difficulty in teambuilding around it. I think the SD set is effective and the resists are nice plus it's not reliant on weather or anything but, eh, it's true it's not very impressive and it's an arc forme you spend on it.

    Tornadus-I up to low B: Hurricane spam followed by a teammate's Tailwind sweep is destructive. I've not much problem with this but I want to hear more opinions.

    Terrakion to remain high B: From what I understood, the argument presented for it to maintain it's position is that in, spite of it's excellent cleaning abilities and solid revenge killing capabilities, these strengths aren't significant enough to really earn it A rank. Basically, they feel that Terrakion being a top cleaner and reliable revenge killer is only enough to earn it high B. Thoughts?
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2013
  19. Blue Jay

    Blue Jay The notorious J Lube
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    I still believe B+ is the right ranking for Terrakion. I believe that its Scarf set is its premier set, so I will argue based on that (after all it's not like Scarfkia is why Palkia is A rank).

    Terrakion has definite advantages as a Scarfmon. The speed tends to go unrivalled, and the excellent coverage of its STABs alongside the speed makes it quite a potent cleaner (certainly more potent in general than Genesect), it easily fits Sleep Talk. Perhaps most importantly, out of all the Ubers viable Scarfmon it is the most effective in checking Ekiller. Resisting SR is also nice, as Scarfmon dislike entry hazards due to the lack of any form of recovery.

    It also has some notable disadvantages, however. Genesect's U-Turn provides momentum in a way in which Terrakion simply cannot compete, particularly as U-Turn heavily damages or OHKOs a number of the top threats that teams usually depend on a Scarfmon to deal with (which is part of why Zekrom's Volt Turn is not nearly as good). Both of its primary moves also have their respective flaws, despite having amazing coverage; Stone Edge has unreliable accuracy (which is particularly unfortunate on a revenge killer, as the team may rely on its ability to handle certain threats), while Close Combat has a common immunity, allowing the opponent to turn a revenge kill attempt into a free turn.

    Between these advantages and disadvantages it might seem more or less level with Genesect, but the final point is quite a significant one and regards my views of the role of a Scarfmon. As I see it, Scarfmon are used out of necessity moreso than preference. Rather than helping you win, it really tends to just help you not to lose. Scarfmon are locked into one attack, which is usually so weak that it is easily taken advantage of by resists, and are vulnerable to hazards. The Pokemon's ability to threaten the opponent itself is exchanged for speed. With this in mind, if a Scarfmon is needed, it would preferably be one which revenge kills as many threats as possible with minimal downsides, and this is where Genesect easily outshines Terrakion, even if Terrakion gets Ekiller and better lategame cleaning over it. Genesect simply checks very prominent threats a Scarfmon is needed for more effectively, while often doing so with U-Turn, which mitigates the biggest disadvantage of Scarfmon.

    ogasian, Terrakion does not even have a chance to OHKO Mewtwo, bulky Latias, Palkia, or the frailest Kyogre (never mind bulkier sets) after two rounds of SR, while all of them effortlessly OHKO it (unless choice locked into some move that fails to do so). It can hardly be considered a solid offensive check to these threats.

    For the same reason for which I argue that Genesect is a superior Scarfmon to Terrakion (that you run them out of necessity, to revenge kill, and that outside of that they tend to lack the utility they might otherwise have), I would argue against Salamence getting a bump. The cleaning power against many teams is quite cool, but losing against certain teams while also forcing the team to run other methods of revenge killing (Scarfmence is too weak to check many things in the first place, and often has to resort to Outrage which could cost the team its revenge killer). And with confusion even its cleaning power can be quite luck reliant.

    Having used and seen Tornadus-T used recently, I can support B mid. The speed tier is amazing, a fast taunt has tons of utility, regenerator is an incredible ability (especially coupled with U-Turn) and Flying STAB wrecks. It does need rain though, Focus Miss for coverage sucks and 110 SpA is quite underwhelming when faced with anything that can claim being specially bulky. It also takes no hits whatsoever.

    I believe Arceus-Dragon can be effective enough (mainly the SD set), if somewhat hard to fit into teams. It certainly shouldn't fall below Arceus-Dark, which comes with the same opportunity cost and whose main set is rendered virtually unusable by the prevalence of Genesect and Terrakion (as well as failing to fulfill its main role against stall teams with Perish Song).

    Kyurem-W is also not A-rank in my eyes (the power is immense but the hazard weakness and lack of speed are major problems, and it does not even come close to Ho-Oh's utility with SR off the field), but it also does not deserve to be disgraced by falling so low. In its defense, Turboblaze deserves a mention for something it gets as a wallbreaker over Ho-Oh and Dialga. Its optimal weather condition (sun) also typically prefers to run anti-hazard support. It does also get a better speed tier than much of its competition, although not by an enormous margin. It may have many flaws, but with good support it has far more potential than most of the Pokemon in C+ (and while providing that much support for it alone is excessive, if its teammates also benefit significantly from such support it can be great).

    On another note, we could really do with write-ups for the whole viability list, as the rankings can be rather misleading. I believe that these, if informatively and realistically written, could be more useful than the categories themselves. Currently, the reasoning behind a ranking is quite variable; things may be a lower rank due to needing support, having quite a specific niche or being generally poor, and this leaves the rankings by themselves somewhat ambiguous. This makes it difficult for an inexperienced player to correctly interpret the rankings, partially defeating the purpose of the thread (as experienced players have a good understanding of the viability of various Pokemon in Ubers anyways).

    I would be happy to contribute various write-ups, so long as they are (after any necessary changes) used on the thread; many who have provided write-ups have been ignored completely.
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2013
  20. ogasian

    ogasian

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    I never said OHKO, but Terrakion shaves 80% from Palkia and 70% from ScarfOgre. Palkia is OHKOed after rocks and spikes (not a hard thing to get up in Ubers) and Kyogre is left crippled. Mewtwo I conceed, idk what the hell I was thinking. Latias rarely runs a bulky set, and even if it did, it wiuld run recover, roar, dragon pulse, hp fire (if it runs psyshock then terrakion gets beat) but Terrak 2HKOs after rocks outspeeding while bulky Latias does not OHKO
  21. SmashBrosBrawl

    SmashBrosBrawl

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    You guys are being too close minded with this. CB terrakion and lead terrakion are other amazing sets it can run. CB is one of the best wallbreakers around because of how fast it is and close combat is the most spammable move in the game after ghosts are gone. Lead terra is excellent at putting offensive pressure early game thanks to its coverage and its ability to beat lead dialga while having access to taunt and stealth rock. I truly support terrakion for A rank. Its an extremely dangerous and useful threat and deserves no less.
  22. shrang

    shrang OM OM OM
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    Yeah, I think dropping Terrakion might be a bit premature. Scarf sucks, I know, but CB Terrakion is such a boss it's not funny. It's kind of like a physical Reshiram that isn't 1) weather dependent, 2) SR weak and 3) doesn't have a STAB that drops its attack. Since most people don't run Jolly Ekiller these days, it can still revenge kill Arceus even better than Scarf.
  23. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo Boss characters make appearances in other stages
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    Just saying weren't dropping him we are suggesting that he rises from high B to low A rank. (Just thought the change of perspective may change your opinion)

    Although I disagree with the comparison to Genesect and dismissing the proactive abilities (cleaning) for reactive ones, the points about the dangers of his STABs and simply the fact that he does have that tough competition is convincing. I like the guy a lot but I think I'll leave him in high B where he is unless new arguments are proposed.
    (I don't think the other sets are significant enough to really support a rise unless you can argue their merits beyond sets up SR or hits hard)

    As for Kyurem, I realize the drop is harsh and I realize under certain circumstances it merits a place on the team but that's why I propose high C rank. That's the place for niche mons that struggle to define themselves. Mold Breaker is nice but it only helps with Multiscale (and lik Bronzong) and although the speed tier is better, it's still just essentially speed creeping albeit much safer to bet on. I'm not denying that you can provide it all this support but my problem is that even with it it still struggles to create free turns and put the power to use. Even with SR off the field it's limited in what it can punish so for that much support you might as well take things that, for the most part, accomplish what Kyurem-W would be counted along with many other things. (such as Ho-Oh or Specs Dialga) Basically, I looking for people to demonstrate significant scenarios where I would opt for Kyurem-W over the two mentioned above, for example.
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2013
  24. Blue Jay

    Blue Jay The notorious J Lube
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    I concede having no experience with the CB set personally (and barely any facing it), so I will leave it to others to defend that and argue for it. I can imagine it being better than Genesect's secondary sets (especially in comparison to its primary one) so that might also be in favour of its rising. The SR lead set is also cool but having used it I also don't believe that it warrants a rise.

    I also was not dismissing Terrakion's cleaning abilities so much so as favouring Genesect's revenge killing ones, with the reasoning that if one mon on the team must be limited by a Choice Scarf (I personally consider being limited to one move and gaining no power in exchange for speed a limitation, others may not see it this way) in order to allow it to revenge kill, it would seem sensible to use the one that is the most efficient in this. Admittedly, alongside secondary methods of revenge killing (weather sweepers, powerful priority) a Choice Scarf mon that can clean more effectively besides revenge killing might be preferred. And where most teams rely on revenge killing to handle Mewtwo, Latias and Latios (some of the greatest threats which Genesect gets over Terrakion), a rain team with Jirachi can simply wall them instead. However, as a revenge killer, Terrakion's advantages are relatively niche compared to Genesect, and many teams use their Scarfmon primarily for this purpose.

    I also feel it necessary at this point to state that I really like Terrakion. It just doesn't quite stand up to Genesect as a Scarfmon for many teams, even with better cleaning capability.
  25. Rayquaza_

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    Turboblaze lets Kyu-W hit Heatran with Fusion Flare and OHKO Skarmory and Forretress through Sturdy, which is huge.
    I already provided a scenario where Kyu-W is better than Dialga (STAB Ice Beam beats Giratina+Ferrothorn, while Dialga can't possibly beat both of them with the same move, even more so if it's choiced) and Ho-oh (as good as it is Ho-oh struggles against Kyogre and rain in general, unlike Kyu-W who can actually check it).
    Kyu-W is in no way a niche 'mon in ubers, in fact it's a threat that every team needs to address.

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