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Gen 5 The Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Now Taking Write-Ups)

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Tobes, Oct 27, 2012.

  1. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    The more I look at each rank's description, the more I feel Dialga could slot into S-Rank. It pulls off both defensive sets and offensive sets with aplomb.

    The defensive sets has a good defensive typing with only 2 weaknesses, not weak to Dragon or Dark (which is a far cry compared to most anything else that can be considered defensive), and resists tons of stuff. It also has a good support movepool: Stealth Rock is great on Dialga as it can support the team without forcing them to run something like Groudon (interferes with weather other than Sun) or Forretress (gives up offensive momentum). It has both Roar and Dragon Tail which Giratina-A also has, except Dialga doesn't have a ton of debilitating weaknesses nor does it hit like a sissy. Arceus-Steel is likely to give Dialga the most competition due to great speed, Recover and a boosting move, but its STAB has poor coverage and has no immediate phazing move (Perish Song eh) while Dialga has Dragon STAB which pummels shit even if uninvested.

    Offensive sets though, oh boy. Not only do they have killer power and coverage (STAB Dragon + Fire + Fighting/Ground from base 150 SpA = gg), but they have great bulk and are super resistant to hazards, unlike some wallbreakers (Kyurem-W, Mewtwo to an extent?). It is slow though (though Scarf can fix that issue somewhat), but when it can take the majority of attacks lobbed its way Dialga usually comes out on top in the exchange. Even mixed sets can take an opponent by surprise, as Dialga has the power to Outrage special walls and has the, well, bulk to make use of Bulk Up to perform a bulky-boosting role, which can prove to be difficult for even Groudon to take down.

    I really don't see how a team can't get better without a Dialga in it if they use it right, as it is versatile enough to perform damn near any role you want it to and does it well, as it provides so much while costing very little (Fighting + Ground weakness is super easy to compensate). Defensive, Wallbreaker, Scarfer, Bulky-boosting, Mixed...if you don't call this a good glue Pokemon I don't know what is.
  2. Sweep

    Sweep
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    Supporting, Dialga is absolutely amazing. It gets Stealth Rock (unlike other support mons like Lugia), brutal Dragon Stab, and Fire Blast (would Latios kill for that)! Its Scarf set is a great answer for Darkrai in Sun, as any of its three moves (Fire Blast, Aura Sphere, Draco Meteor) will kill it after Darkrai has put it to sleep. Because Scarf Dialga is uncommon, the opponent will rarely Focus Blast you on the switch. Dialga is slower than most scarfers anyway and has enough speed to easily surpass 400 with a Scarf, so it can afford to run a Modest nature, increasing its power. I consider Dialga the third best Scarf user in Ubers due to that raw power, resistance to hazards, and ability to beat up Darkrai. The Specs set is unwallable if the opponent lacks a pink blob and Dialga separates itself from Kyurem-W due to its immunity to Toxic Spikes and resistance to SR, whereas Kyurem-W needs Spin/Magic Bounce support to be of any use mid to late game. Support is great, only offensive Groudon can consistently stop it from setting up SR as both Magic Bouncers hate Dialga that have been sufficiently sped crept to outrun Xatu, neither can touch support Dialga while Dialga badly wounds them back. It can run phazing moves and both Thunder Wave and Toxic, allowing it to further support the team. Max speed LO Dialga can even surprise the annoying Earth Plate Groudon running around!

    Resttalk Bulk Up sets with maxed out special defense are a nightmare to take down as a last mon standing pokemon, due to that great bulk and typing; it is incredibly hard to 2HKO after a Bulk Up if you lack a fighting move, allowing it to complete a resttalk cycle and go back to sleep. With hazards on the field, this set can slowly destroy the opponent. Finally, Air Balloon Dialga is another nasty surprise for Groudon, as it can switch into Earthquake and start throwing around powerful attacks. NOTHING can wall all of Dialga's sets...Pink blobs are set-up bait for Bulk Up sets and Tyranitar can get blasted by Aura Sphere. Dialga gets Thunder too, further increasing its chances of beating Kyogre and Tentacruel. Because Dialga can check so many threats depending on the set, beat most Ubers mons 1-1, and has versatility that only Arceus formes and Kyogre can match (maybe Palkia too), I fully support Dialga for S rank. That typing is icing on the cake.
  3. sammao

    sammao

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    Keldeo need to be on the ranking list, so nominating Keldeo to C- , my experiences to it is limited, but I know that it has a lot of problems in Uber. Lati@s, Giratina, and Mewtwo wall/destroy it badly. It also doesn't resist Espeed, unlike his cousin Terrakion and face stiff competition with rain sweepers like Kabutops and Palkia in general, not to mention 129 Special Atk just isn't enough compare to 150s. However, taunt is something pretty neat to annoy stall and that works well with CM, Sacred Sword allow it to destroy Ferrothorn, so not all is lost. And C- seems perfect.

    Dropping Froslass to C, I really don't understand how it can be in B at the moment. It can lead and set up Spikes, sure, but EVERY scarfer can limit it to one layer due to it fragility, not to mention a large number of pokemon still outspeed it without scarf like Mewtwo, Skaymin-S, Terrakion, and EVERY Arceus form. Of course, Spikes+Spin Block is something unique, but it is not like you can block very long since it usually dies quickly, Deoxy-S and sturdy custap spiker leads are usually better outside of spin block, meaning that it is a very niche monster that will not be outclassed only on a small number of teams. So it should be C.

    For S-ranking Dialga, Punchshroom and other supporters do have their points, but I feel like that it does not usually sweep (only Bulk up as a set up move and that it is slow), it does not wall a lot of things extremely well (this is due to the fact that most monsters in uber has either a earth or ground coverage moves, or they have a powerful STAB Dragon attack, and that 100/120/100 is great but still not the bulkiest thing around). For example,

    252 SpA Lustrous Orb Palkia Spacial Rend vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Dialga: 180-213 (44.55 - 52.72%) -- 27.34% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Choice Band Zekrom Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dialga: 306-361 (75.74 - 89.35%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Dialga: 239-283 (59.15 - 70.04%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


    I mean you can defeat these monster but you also badly damaged. Now don't get me wrong, it is still a great pokemon, but I feel like it is a monster that can take a first hit or two (as again you are slow), KO the opponent but it is easy to KO you back with a next pokemon. SR is great but there are other pokemon that can fulfill the role of "SR setter with offensive presence not name Groudon" like Landorus-T and Bulky Excadrill. SR resist +TS immune is also great, but you are still weak to Spikes unfortunately. All in all, it is still an excellent monster, but has just a bit of flaw that prevent it to be a king.
  4. cfdu1202

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    I don't mind Dialga being S-Rank; however, I think if there's a pokemon that deserve S-Rank more, that's Groudon.
    Its ability alone is a reason to put him into S-Rank. It gives a boost to various fire-types in the metagame, making Ho-Oh the beast he is, making Reshiram much more threatening, enabling Heatran to wall various threats. It also helps to combat rain-based teams (as well as sand). When you build a rain team, the first thing you must think of is to counter Groudon. Besides Kyogre's Drizzle, no other pokemon defines Uber as much as Groudon.
    His support set is one of the best defensive check to Physical Rayquaza (imo only Lugia and Cresselia are better for this, but they aren't well adapted to the metagame), and counter most if not all of the physical sweepers in the meta. It's a very good paralysis spreader as well, catching lati@s, Skymin, Arceus-Grass or Lugia on the switch.
    Groudon can go on the offensive as well, KOing Skarmory and friends that think they can set up on him.
    His rock polish set may be rare, but is very threatening, and with Groudon's bulk he can survive extremespeeds and bullet punches. With the access to the game's strongest earthquake, he can OHKO a lot of offensive pokemon that are neutral to ground with only the help of SR.
    It can also get past most of his counters: Paradancer set against Lugia, SD+Lum Berry for Giratina, etc.
    Sure, Groudon has some flaws, which are: low speed, low special defense, and lack of recovery. Hippowdon, Arceus-Ground, and Landorus-T give him a little competition, but Hippowdon brings sand instead of sun, using another Arceus form might be more benificial, and Landorus-T cannot stop things such as Extremekiller.
    In conclusion, I agree with Groudon and Dialga being A+, but if Dialga is promoted to S rank, then Groudon should be as well, because Groudon shapes the metagame much more than Dialga.
  5. sammao

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    Groudon has a bit of problem that I can see why it can't be S. Offensively, unlike Kyogre in which its STAB is boosted by the weather it summons, Drought does not boost the power of EQ and this in turn make Groudon hits a lot weaker than Kyogre. Moreover, very few things actually immune to Water, meaning Kyogre can very often badly damage or at the very least scratch a resist with water attack, while a lot of pokemon are immune to EQ. This in turn make Groudon quite a bit easier to switch into compare to Kyogre. Only Grass Arceus, Latias, Palkia, Special defensive Giratina and Dialga, Ferrothorn, and the pink blob can switch into Kyogre water moves somewhat comfortably, and the later three can't even take full power Specs Sprout. Groudon, on the other hand, has plenty of easy switch in: Giratina, Lugia, Grass, Ground, Fighting and other Arceus form that can hit back Super Effectively, Defensive Normal Arceus, Giratina-O, Gliscor, Landorus-T, Kyogre, Hippowdon, and even things like Lati@s and Skaymin-S can attempt to switch in EQ and KO back.

    Support and defensive wise, SR, thunder wave, and phazing are all great and that is why it is A+, but is not like you have spikes or rapid spin and a lot of other pokemon get these support moves Groudon has too. And as you mentioned before, it has low speed and special defense by Uber standard, and there are a lot of ways to revenge it. While Drought is meta defining, Groudon still require little support from the team to function, it cannot destroy entire team easily nor can it wall most things in the tier, that's why it can't be S
    Sweep likes this.
  6. cfdu1202

    cfdu1202

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    That's the problem. Groudon's power cannot even be compared to Kyogre. That's why I said Groudon's rank is appropriate. But I won't be against him being S-Rank. He supports better than other pokemons, with Drought being beneficial for the whole team. He has two set-up moves that destroy various teams, who think that Groudon is running a defensive set.

    Besides, I was debating Groudon vs Dialga, not vs Kyogre.

    Some people want to promote Dialga to S-Rank, but imo, Dialga shouldn't be higher than Groudon, with the arguments I expressed on my last post.
    Dialga sure has versatility, but can he wall a lot of threats in Uber? His support set is meant to absorb resisted hits (or weaker hits), such as Kyogre's choice scarf Ice Beam. On the other hand, support Groudon can switch into any Terrakion, Ekiller or various non choice band Outrages, and OHKO back or phaze while surviving the 1vs1. Dialga cannot take many neutral hits. Other dragons have a decent shot at 2HKOing Dialga with their STAB moves. Both don't have recovery besides leftovers.
    Groudon can sweep late game with Rock Polish or/and Sword Dance, but Dialga's only set that can clean up late game is the Scarf Set (seriously, pretty much any scarfers can do that), and by using BulkUp+ Resttalk. Tell me who managed to use this set succesfully in this metagame.
    Dialga can punch holes with Specs/Life Orb, but any team with the pink blobs, Lugia, tank Ho-Oh (not in rain), SpDef Kyogre (if you avoid Thunder), Heatran, Arceus-Rock in sand, Jirachi in rain can wall it. Outrage helps against some of those pokemon, though. Have you tried Banded Groudon? Sure, you need to predict well, instead of spamming Draco Meteors, but actually the only surefire counters are Landorus-T, Cresselia, and Hippowdon (2,34% chance of 2HKO), physically defensive Giratina, and lol 252/252+ Arceus.

    In addition, if Dialga was promoted, when unexperienced players look at this thread, they might think that they must absolutely find a check to Dialga (which they should do), but countering Groudon is even more important. Basically, Groudon has an easier time getting past his counters than Dialga.
    Dialga is a powerful pokemon, but does NOT shape the metagame. It's Dialga who adapted to the metagame, but it's Groudon and Kyogre who are defining it.

    Edit: C Rank is too low for Froslass. Froslass is a spiker who can beat Deoxys-S. If you lead with Deoxys against a Froslaass, either you break Froslass' Focus Sash and die afterwoods (Icy Wind+Shadow Ball is enough, and you're outsped after a speed drop), either you set up a layer, and begin the match 5vs6 against a sashed Froslass. Espeon and Xatu cannot come on this either, and only Froslass can set up spikes against Forretress. B- is more appropriate, imo.
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2013
  7. Blue Jay

    Blue Jay The notorious J Lube
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    That comparison is ridiculous, if you want to compare Groudon and Kyogre one-dimensionally (I do not see why you would; if either were one-dimensional Pokemon hardly anyone would argue for them to be S-rank) at least do so fairly. Half the Pokemon listed cannot switch into a Choice Band Earthquake; arguing that anything less than Choice Band is weaker than Choice Specs is self-evident and redundant. And if Kyogre deserves a mention as a Groudon switchin, then Rayquaza, Arceus-Water, Arceus-Dragon and Giratina-O (and maybe Kyurem-W/Kyurem-B too, after all a full power Specs Water Spout assumes no SR) deserve mention as Kyogre switchins. Gastrodon, the single safest switchin can also hardly be ignored.

    Nonetheless, no, Groudon cannot run an effective Choice Band set, as Kyogre can a Choice Specs set. However, Specs Water Spout is only a small part of the reason Kyogre is S-Rank (many things in the metagame can run a Choice Band or Choice Specs set and be very difficult to switch into). Where Groudon lacks immediate power, it has a completely superior arsenal of set up moves, and is able to devastate offensive teams with Rock Polish, or more defensive teams with Swords Dance (and virtually any team if it ever manages to set up both). In fact, if we compare the aggregate of its sets, Groudon has almost as few solid checks or counters in one Pokemon as Kyogre does; many defensive checks fall to Swords Dance sets, while many offensive ones are outsped and OHKO'd if it uses Rock Polish. Its ability to run numerous quite different sets makes it quite unpredictable and dangerous, and while Kyogre can also run a variety of effective sets, the most threatening ones are the ones which are expected and which every team is prepared for (not to mention that they share many checks with the other ones), whereas people are commonly less prepared for offensive Groudon and rarely expect it.

    Add to its ability to function as a cleaner, wallbreaker or support mon the fact that it has Drought, and it is a very capable, versatile mon in its own respect that can significantly support teams with its ability alone, much like Kyogre. Whether sun or rain is a superior weather condition is another matter, but not one I wish to bring up as I know it will result in enormous disagreement and probably few (if any) changed opinions once the debating is done. It is for all these reasons that I believe Groudon is S-rank. Kyogre may have ridiculous power that Groudon cannot match, but Groudon gets other tools that it does not and without significant support it cannot sweep well-built teams either (nor wall most of the tier with a defensive set).
    RiskVsRewardPlayer likes this.
  8. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    Blue Jay has an excellent point (or maybe my skimming gave me something else but whatevs), we shouldn't be comparing Groudon to Kyogre. Kyogre is not the definition of S rank, just a member in it. (nothing again you sammao, I was doing the exact same thing like 5 mins ago, lol)

    I'll make a real response once I find myself with more time. Currently, I'm on the high A side of the fence.

    Also, I'll try to get Keldeo in soon. (I forgot about him, is there any other mon that has an analysis and isn't already up?)
  9. sammao

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    I totally understand your post before, I was just trying to say Groudon shouldn't be S because of

    and I think Dialga also has very similar problems for the most part and I think both cannot be at the same level of Kyogre or Ghost Arceus.

    The problem for Froslass is that EVERY TEAM will have something faster (Scarfer, Bullet punch/Shadow sneak, or just sth with higher speed) that limit it to one layer and no destiny bond kill in the lead. If you don't lead, then your opponent may have set up hazzard that render your sash useless. Blocking spin is certainly nice against spinner, but the fact is the opponent can easily bring their faster pokemon to lead. I mean if you are satisfy with only one Spikes layer that's good, but to me that's mediocre if it means that you need to put one pokemon down.
  10. Jimmyftw

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    Groudon and Dialga are really amazing, they have the potential to support, sweep and wall, thus enabling them to be diverse and unpredictable. However, they are not S-rank worthy in my opinion because neither of them are "masters" of a specialize area. For example, Kyogre is S-rank because it is a master of power while at the same time possessing secondary expertise such as calm mind, sleep talk, physically bulky, etc.

    If there is a Pokémon other than Kyogre who deserve to be S-rank, said Pokémon must be a master at a specialize field. One particular Pokémon that I think deserve to be S-Rank is a master of sweeping. He is the definition of a bulky set-up sweeper, He threatens the Metagame to a point where it revolves around Him, He is virtually never OHKO by an attack, whereas his boosted attack OHKO many. That said, I would like to nominate Arceus-Normal to his rightful position at the top of the S-rank category.

    If you are still not convince, here is a battle I had with a very skilled player: http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ubers-50256122
  11. Sweep

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    Ekiller is strong on the ladder no doubt, though sadly I feel the two sides (ekiller lovers and ekiller haters) are too divided to move it up or down. It is kinda easily checked early to midgame, and it hates all forms of status. With that said, it's a threat every team needs to prepare for, and sadly Kabutops does not always survive a +4 espeed :(. I should use omastar lol. GGs by the way :), we should have been 1-1 dammit but they were good fun games nonetheless.
  12. sammao

    sammao

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    I think I should stop talking about Groudon and Dialga S ranking since we have discussed well enough and it is up to Melee and other mod to decide. Anyway, I want heard more comment about Froslass to C or not. Like I have said before too many things prevent it to do anything more than one layer of hazard and it really should move to C.

    On the other hand, even though I have already done this long time ago, but I would like to nominate Terrakion to A- again. Its scarf set is capable of keeping a lot of monster in check and ogasian has made a good list a while ago:

    Moreover, Terrakion is capable of running Band, Double Dance, and lead set. All of these set are very solid despite rare. For example:

    252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 319-376 (78.96 - 93.06%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Groudon: 166-196 (41.08 - 48.51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
    +2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Groudon: 289-341 (71.53 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Palkia: 325-384 (101.24 - 119.62%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Giratina-O: 244-288 (55.32 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    I mean sometimes you need a bit of extra damage to get the appropriate OHKO or 2HKO, but it is still a great pokemon that can threaten the whole team if given the chance. 108 speed is also impressive. It works well in any team. Ghost type and some bulky ground type pokemon is a problem and that is why it can't get to A or A+, but it is still better than those in B
  13. Blue Jay

    Blue Jay The notorious J Lube
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    Terrakion's potential promotion was discussed very recently, and its rank remained. It would be nice if you would address points raised about it there. It's also very relevant to not only discuss what it can do, but also what it gets over its competition, as it has competition for all its roles; Genesect in particular is usually considered a superior Scarfmon, it has quite a few wallbreakers to contend with the Choice Band set, and Groudon and Landorus-T contest the Double Dancer set. The lead set is not really worth going into in my eyes, it is a viable set, but probably Terrakion's worst and the one that has the most competition.

    I will not go into the Choice Band set much (I have no personal experience using it, and often experience is far more telling than theorymoning or calculations), but I would like to point out (and this also applies for the Choice Scarf/Double Dance set) that Terrakion really needs its KOs. It is relatively frail by the tier's standards, has a few unpleasant weaknesses, and the nice resistances it gets are somewhat mitigated by the fact that moves of such types are usually accompanied by moves that will wreck it. Impressive damage is impressive, but unless it KOs, it will likely be KO'd itself, or in the case of walls, crippled with burn/paralysis.
  14. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    Real quick, I want to ask you guys to please not use the argument; "It can run set Y and beat counters to set X". Just about every Pokemon can get past it's typical counters with an alternate set but that doesn't matter because you shouldn't be looking for a single answer to a full Pokemon. (You prepare for specific sets)

    Terrakion: Yes, Terrakion was recently brought up and decided to remain in high B rank. However, you can still discuss it as nothing is permanent just make sure, as Blue Jay said, you at least address the points raised earlier.

    Froslass: It's an anti-meta suicide Spiker that breaks expectations. Yes, it may not have the speed to setup two layers easily like a Deoxy forme but it has other advantages that allows it to beat a lot of things Deo-S, for example, can't. It's a Ghost which means every spinner loses to it (which is pretty important in stall matchups where there will likely not be a faster mon). It an anti-lead other Spike setters like Deo-S and Deo-A with Icy Wind and Shadow ball. (which also beats Magic Bounce) It dicks with common Magic Coat users (Tina-O, Latios) thanks again to its STABs. Lastly, Deo-S is so prepared for (because it's become a popular metagame threat) that you'll likely only end up with one layer, anyways, whether you choose Froslass or Deo. At least the previously mentioned merits can surprise a good portion of these counter measures and get you an extra layer.

    Groudon: Real quick I want to pull up the descriptions for S and A.
    S Rank (open)

    The titans of the game. They bear massive offensive and defensive capabilities. Pokemon in this tier are extremely diverse, capable of fulfilling multiple roles on both defensive and offensive ends. There is virtually zero opportunity cost in using these Pokemon. They require no support from the team and have immense utility to offer.

    A Rank (open)

    Reserved for Pokemon with impressive offensive or defensive capability. These Pokemon are typically the first to be considered to fulfill certain roles and have very little opportunity cost. They require little support to function and may have significant utility.


    Now for Groudon, I'm going to use these and work backwards.

    As far as utility to offer the team, Groudon has Drought which is massive and totally fits this requirement. Groudon is also completely self sufficient and isn't going to need teammates to help it perform its job so it checks out on that bit, too.

    Then we get to the opportunity cost bit where things start to get a bit bumpy. Most teams are not going to be wanting to stack multiple Ground-types next to Groudon and there's quite a number of good Ground-type for him to compete with. Arceus-Ground, Excadrill, Gliscor, Landorus-T, and Hippowdon are all solid choices for a team and each offers something valuable that Groudon lacks. (speed+mixed bulk+Recover, Spin+steel+speed*, Taunt+Poison Heal+Baton Pass+Ground immunity, U-Turn+Ground immunity+tad extra speed, Sand+recovery) However, Groudon definitely differentiates itself with Drought (plus other benefits relative to each Ground mon) and this list only applies if you are looking for a Ground type, which is only one of his features. The biggest thing to take from this list is what it reveals about Groudon's shortcomings, most notably in the defensive department.

    Groudon has the benefit of being effective for multiple roles, both defensive and offensive. (oh look another requirement) However, he has some brutal (relative to S/A+ rank mind you) flaws that hold him back from really becoming one of the best at these roles. Starting with his defensive sets, Groudon does possess the valuable Ground typing and minimum speed required to serve as an acceptable Zekrom check (you gotta get into speed creep wars with Mixed variants but that's kinda easy since they split their EVs already). 100/140 physical defenses is definitely nice and would make him a good blanket wall. Sadly, you don't want to count on him to do much more than one thing at a time as he lacks a very important aspect in effective walls, recovery. I'm not even talking about the luxurious Recover and friends, Groudon can't even run an effective RestTalk set because Ground-type has so many immunities around. This makes it a whole lot easier to wear Groudon down, especially if you count on it to setup SR, opening up a hole in your team that can be exploited. Can defensive Groudon still function on Stall/Balanced teams? Absolutely, it has Drought+SR and can check Zekrom which is important, however, that lack of recovery makes it a mediocre wall that can't be counted on to do much else.

    Now onto the offensive sets. You've got a few options including Offensive EPlate, Rock Polish, and Swords Dance that makes it notable offensive threat. The thing that really bites is, again, the large number of Ground immunities in the metagame. These aren't forgettable threats, either, you've got Latias, Giratina-O, Ho-Oh, Latios, Rayquaza, Gliscor, Landorus-T, and Skymin (I'm stopping at C) that can come in for free on a predicted Earthquake (some don't even have to do that) and then force Groudon right out (some better than others). He also lacks that raw punch, without SD, to bust through generally physically bulky tanks/walls. Rock Polish is going to be unhelpful against stall and SD won't ever spend a turn boosting against offense, either. DoubleDance is going to miss out on very important coverage that leaves it checked by even more things depending on what move you pick. (Without Stone Edge you get fucked by Ho-Oh and without Dragon Claw Latias, Tina-O, and Latios, to some extent, are going to continue to be annoying cock blocks just to name a few) So basically your strongest move is switch-in fodder for a number of important offensive threats and your boosting moves are useless against certain team types and/or sacrifices valuable coverage.

    Don't take this as a Groudon sux post because he absolutely does not. I just feel that, despite his Drought and flexibility, he isn't a significant enough offensive and defensive threat to merit S Rank. However, those aforementioned traits does make him strongly resemble a S Rank Pokemon which is why I feel he fits well in high A Rank.

    *-Only on Sand teams

    I was hoping to talk about Dialga in this post as well but I spent too much time on Groundon to address it in one sitting. I'll try to get to him soon.
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2013
  15. Haruno

    Haruno Sprouts > Kale
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    So why is skarm A rank again?
  16. Jimmyftw

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    Apparently because it walls Ekiller, which ironically, is also A rank. It also set up spikes, so there are two reasons.
  17. Punchshroom

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    I believe access to Spikes, recovery in Roost, a phazing move to hold off most physical boosters, a wonderful typing that allows it to stop Pokemon such as Groudon, Excadrill, Ekiller, Tyranitar, Garchomp and Ghostceus among others, and Taunt to stop opposing setup (mainly hazards from Ferro and Forry) are all factors for its A-Rank placing.
  18. Haruno

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    The things it supposedly checks is rather mediocre however. Limited entirely to sd arceus, possibly chomp, groudon without a fire move, tytar and that's about it. Which is a whopping 4 mons which isn't saying that much. Other physical attackers have little to no difficulty breaking skarm unless they do something stupid like outrage or whatnot. Otherwise skarm isn't tanking much. Being able to turn set up bait into set up bait isn't worthy of an A rank by any means so mehs. I think B is a fair spot considering physical attackers aren't that common and the ones that are break skarm with relative ease.
  19. Haruno

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    4- SpA Life Orb Rayquaza Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Skarmory: 333-393 (99.7 - 117.66%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO
    252 Atk Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Skarmory: 320-380 (95.8 - 113.77%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Skarmory: 260-307 (77.84 - 91.91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Skarmory: 359-424 (107.48 - 126.94%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb Groudon Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Skarmory in sun: 265-315 (79.34 - 94.31%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Skarmory: 162-192 (48.5 - 57.48%) -- 55.08% chance to 2HKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Skarmory in rain: 175-207 (52.39 - 61.97%) -- 98.83% chance to 2HKO

    It's not walling shit.
    Kebabe, RiskVsRewardPlayer and Hack like this.
  20. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    Arc Ghost, Arc N, Tina-O, Latias, Ferro, Forry, Genesect, Arc Grass, Arc Ground, Arc Steel, Excadrill, Tina-A, Tyranitar are all checked and/or Spikes fodder for Skarmory. (and that's just S to A rank) Although I do enjoy how you randomly cherry picked calcs out of the pool of select physical attackers it does not wall.
  21. Haruno

    Haruno Sprouts > Kale
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    +1 252 SpA Arceus-Ghost Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Skarmory: 183-216 (54.79 - 64.67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


    252 SpA Giratina-O Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Skarmory: 144-170 (43.11 - 50.89%) -- 55.86% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    148 SpA Soul Dew Latias Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Skarmory: 316-374 (94.61 - 111.97%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    252 SpA Genesect Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Skarmory: 194-230 (58.08 - 68.86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    0 SpA Tyranitar Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Skarmory: 164-194 (49.1 - 58.08%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    The rest are general walls with the arceus forms outspeeding and forry spinning on skarm. Ferro loses but meh. And sd arceus are checked as I mentioned and they can run fire blast/flamethrower if skarm concerns you thatmuch
  22. Melee Mewtwo

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    Ghost arc gets phazed out and relies on Focus Miss (while also doesn't always run special attack) so that's definitely a check. Tina-O doesn't run HP Fire anymore (rarely that is) and aren't even factoring Rain nor the possibiltiy that he doesn't use HP Fire on the switch-in so that's a another thing checked. A lot of Latias will opt for Psyshock (if even that) but yeah I should have specified it at least, still checks. Genesect don't often run Flamethrower nor max spatk and again no Rain so another thing checked. Ttar is slower than Skarm so he just Roost stalls for a miss and lols.

    If you have to opt for lesser/uncommon coverage moves than that means Skarm is doing his job.
  23. Haruno

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    I didn't even know latias had thunder until I saw you use it against anikram....

    We're not counting phazing and losing half your life in the process as a solid check are we? Prediction isn't a valid argument. If you're allowed to factor in rain why wouldn't sun be allowed? Also if we're talking about teammates kyogre isn't even one of the top 10 teammates accompanying skarm. And if you do factor in rain there are a huge amount of things that forces it out with rain boosted surfs and 100% accurate thunders. Skarm =/= it offers less utility while checking far fewer and more obscure threats. B rank at best imo
  24. Melee Mewtwo

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    Depends on what you need Skarmer for. (although the losing half health issues only applies to certain ones of the quick list I posted) You can factor Sun, my point is that you can't ignore the strong possibility of Rain nor the prediction factor. Skarmory is obviously not meant to tank Thunder/Surfs and none of the mons I listed commonly use those moves (except Latias which I should have mentioned were the equally/more common Psyshock variants) Skarm offers plenty of utility; Spikes, Taunt, Phazing.
  25. Haruno

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    You can't factor in prediction since it goes both ways. Will you predict I dpulse and switchin your skarm or will I predict the skarm and use thunder? Or maybe you think that I'm going to thunder so instead you opt to stay in but then what if I think that you'll predict my thunder and opt to stay in and opt to use dpulse instead? Yeah, exactly. Prediction is not a usable argument since it works both ways.

    The problem with losing half your health and then phazing is you have no control over w/e the hell comes in and more likely than not, it'll be an attacker that can finish the weakened skarm off with ease. Skarm lacks the bulk to take advantage of said utilities, we're not talking about ferro level walling where it can tank hits from the vast majority of the tier while skarm checks far less than it. Skarm struggles with physical attackers bar sd arceus, some exca, some chomp and some ty-tar's while being mauled by common special attackers. Overall it doesn't come close to walling the majority of the tier which loses it's value as a defensive pivot. Can it be good if said team has one of the things that it soft checks? Sure but even so those teams will also have something that remove skarm with ease. Overall skarm doesn't wall enough nor does it wall well enough to be considered mid A. Either skarm goes down or ferro moves up.

    edit: on an unrelated note, how can you call chomp slow?

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