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Gen 5 The Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Now Taking Write-Ups)

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Tobes, Oct 27, 2012.

  1. sammao

    sammao

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    I totally understand your post before, I was just trying to say Groudon shouldn't be S because of

    and I think Dialga also has very similar problems for the most part and I think both cannot be at the same level of Kyogre or Ghost Arceus.

    The problem for Froslass is that EVERY TEAM will have something faster (Scarfer, Bullet punch/Shadow sneak, or just sth with higher speed) that limit it to one layer and no destiny bond kill in the lead. If you don't lead, then your opponent may have set up hazzard that render your sash useless. Blocking spin is certainly nice against spinner, but the fact is the opponent can easily bring their faster pokemon to lead. I mean if you are satisfy with only one Spikes layer that's good, but to me that's mediocre if it means that you need to put one pokemon down.
  2. Jimmyftw

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    Groudon and Dialga are really amazing, they have the potential to support, sweep and wall, thus enabling them to be diverse and unpredictable. However, they are not S-rank worthy in my opinion because neither of them are "masters" of a specialize area. For example, Kyogre is S-rank because it is a master of power while at the same time possessing secondary expertise such as calm mind, sleep talk, physically bulky, etc.

    If there is a Pokémon other than Kyogre who deserve to be S-rank, said Pokémon must be a master at a specialize field. One particular Pokémon that I think deserve to be S-Rank is a master of sweeping. He is the definition of a bulky set-up sweeper, He threatens the Metagame to a point where it revolves around Him, He is virtually never OHKO by an attack, whereas his boosted attack OHKO many. That said, I would like to nominate Arceus-Normal to his rightful position at the top of the S-rank category.

    If you are still not convince, here is a battle I had with a very skilled player: http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ubers-50256122
  3. Sweep

    Sweep the face of NU and RU stall
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    Ekiller is strong on the ladder no doubt, though sadly I feel the two sides (ekiller lovers and ekiller haters) are too divided to move it up or down. It is kinda easily checked early to midgame, and it hates all forms of status. With that said, it's a threat every team needs to prepare for, and sadly Kabutops does not always survive a +4 espeed :(. I should use omastar lol. GGs by the way :), we should have been 1-1 dammit but they were good fun games nonetheless.
  4. sammao

    sammao

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    I think I should stop talking about Groudon and Dialga S ranking since we have discussed well enough and it is up to Melee and other mod to decide. Anyway, I want heard more comment about Froslass to C or not. Like I have said before too many things prevent it to do anything more than one layer of hazard and it really should move to C.

    On the other hand, even though I have already done this long time ago, but I would like to nominate Terrakion to A- again. Its scarf set is capable of keeping a lot of monster in check and ogasian has made a good list a while ago:

    Moreover, Terrakion is capable of running Band, Double Dance, and lead set. All of these set are very solid despite rare. For example:

    252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 319-376 (78.96 - 93.06%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Groudon: 166-196 (41.08 - 48.51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
    +2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Groudon: 289-341 (71.53 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Palkia: 325-384 (101.24 - 119.62%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Giratina-O: 244-288 (55.32 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    I mean sometimes you need a bit of extra damage to get the appropriate OHKO or 2HKO, but it is still a great pokemon that can threaten the whole team if given the chance. 108 speed is also impressive. It works well in any team. Ghost type and some bulky ground type pokemon is a problem and that is why it can't get to A or A+, but it is still better than those in B
  5. Blue Jay

    Blue Jay The notorious J Lube
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    Terrakion's potential promotion was discussed very recently, and its rank remained. It would be nice if you would address points raised about it there. It's also very relevant to not only discuss what it can do, but also what it gets over its competition, as it has competition for all its roles; Genesect in particular is usually considered a superior Scarfmon, it has quite a few wallbreakers to contend with the Choice Band set, and Groudon and Landorus-T contest the Double Dancer set. The lead set is not really worth going into in my eyes, it is a viable set, but probably Terrakion's worst and the one that has the most competition.

    I will not go into the Choice Band set much (I have no personal experience using it, and often experience is far more telling than theorymoning or calculations), but I would like to point out (and this also applies for the Choice Scarf/Double Dance set) that Terrakion really needs its KOs. It is relatively frail by the tier's standards, has a few unpleasant weaknesses, and the nice resistances it gets are somewhat mitigated by the fact that moves of such types are usually accompanied by moves that will wreck it. Impressive damage is impressive, but unless it KOs, it will likely be KO'd itself, or in the case of walls, crippled with burn/paralysis.
  6. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo I am hungry
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    Real quick, I want to ask you guys to please not use the argument; "It can run set Y and beat counters to set X". Just about every Pokemon can get past it's typical counters with an alternate set but that doesn't matter because you shouldn't be looking for a single answer to a full Pokemon. (You prepare for specific sets)

    Terrakion: Yes, Terrakion was recently brought up and decided to remain in high B rank. However, you can still discuss it as nothing is permanent just make sure, as Blue Jay said, you at least address the points raised earlier.

    Froslass: It's an anti-meta suicide Spiker that breaks expectations. Yes, it may not have the speed to setup two layers easily like a Deoxy forme but it has other advantages that allows it to beat a lot of things Deo-S, for example, can't. It's a Ghost which means every spinner loses to it (which is pretty important in stall matchups where there will likely not be a faster mon). It an anti-lead other Spike setters like Deo-S and Deo-A with Icy Wind and Shadow ball. (which also beats Magic Bounce) It dicks with common Magic Coat users (Tina-O, Latios) thanks again to its STABs. Lastly, Deo-S is so prepared for (because it's become a popular metagame threat) that you'll likely only end up with one layer, anyways, whether you choose Froslass or Deo. At least the previously mentioned merits can surprise a good portion of these counter measures and get you an extra layer.

    Groudon: Real quick I want to pull up the descriptions for S and A.
    S Rank (open)

    The titans of the game. They bear massive offensive and defensive capabilities. Pokemon in this tier are extremely diverse, capable of fulfilling multiple roles on both defensive and offensive ends. There is virtually zero opportunity cost in using these Pokemon. They require no support from the team and have immense utility to offer.

    A Rank (open)

    Reserved for Pokemon with impressive offensive or defensive capability. These Pokemon are typically the first to be considered to fulfill certain roles and have very little opportunity cost. They require little support to function and may have significant utility.


    Now for Groudon, I'm going to use these and work backwards.

    As far as utility to offer the team, Groudon has Drought which is massive and totally fits this requirement. Groudon is also completely self sufficient and isn't going to need teammates to help it perform its job so it checks out on that bit, too.

    Then we get to the opportunity cost bit where things start to get a bit bumpy. Most teams are not going to be wanting to stack multiple Ground-types next to Groudon and there's quite a number of good Ground-type for him to compete with. Arceus-Ground, Excadrill, Gliscor, Landorus-T, and Hippowdon are all solid choices for a team and each offers something valuable that Groudon lacks. (speed+mixed bulk+Recover, Spin+steel+speed*, Taunt+Poison Heal+Baton Pass+Ground immunity, U-Turn+Ground immunity+tad extra speed, Sand+recovery) However, Groudon definitely differentiates itself with Drought (plus other benefits relative to each Ground mon) and this list only applies if you are looking for a Ground type, which is only one of his features. The biggest thing to take from this list is what it reveals about Groudon's shortcomings, most notably in the defensive department.

    Groudon has the benefit of being effective for multiple roles, both defensive and offensive. (oh look another requirement) However, he has some brutal (relative to S/A+ rank mind you) flaws that hold him back from really becoming one of the best at these roles. Starting with his defensive sets, Groudon does possess the valuable Ground typing and minimum speed required to serve as an acceptable Zekrom check (you gotta get into speed creep wars with Mixed variants but that's kinda easy since they split their EVs already). 100/140 physical defenses is definitely nice and would make him a good blanket wall. Sadly, you don't want to count on him to do much more than one thing at a time as he lacks a very important aspect in effective walls, recovery. I'm not even talking about the luxurious Recover and friends, Groudon can't even run an effective RestTalk set because Ground-type has so many immunities around. This makes it a whole lot easier to wear Groudon down, especially if you count on it to setup SR, opening up a hole in your team that can be exploited. Can defensive Groudon still function on Stall/Balanced teams? Absolutely, it has Drought+SR and can check Zekrom which is important, however, that lack of recovery makes it a mediocre wall that can't be counted on to do much else.

    Now onto the offensive sets. You've got a few options including Offensive EPlate, Rock Polish, and Swords Dance that makes it notable offensive threat. The thing that really bites is, again, the large number of Ground immunities in the metagame. These aren't forgettable threats, either, you've got Latias, Giratina-O, Ho-Oh, Latios, Rayquaza, Gliscor, Landorus-T, and Skymin (I'm stopping at C) that can come in for free on a predicted Earthquake (some don't even have to do that) and then force Groudon right out (some better than others). He also lacks that raw punch, without SD, to bust through generally physically bulky tanks/walls. Rock Polish is going to be unhelpful against stall and SD won't ever spend a turn boosting against offense, either. DoubleDance is going to miss out on very important coverage that leaves it checked by even more things depending on what move you pick. (Without Stone Edge you get fucked by Ho-Oh and without Dragon Claw Latias, Tina-O, and Latios, to some extent, are going to continue to be annoying cock blocks just to name a few) So basically your strongest move is switch-in fodder for a number of important offensive threats and your boosting moves are useless against certain team types and/or sacrifices valuable coverage.

    Don't take this as a Groudon sux post because he absolutely does not. I just feel that, despite his Drought and flexibility, he isn't a significant enough offensive and defensive threat to merit S Rank. However, those aforementioned traits does make him strongly resemble a S Rank Pokemon which is why I feel he fits well in high A Rank.

    *-Only on Sand teams

    I was hoping to talk about Dialga in this post as well but I spent too much time on Groundon to address it in one sitting. I'll try to get to him soon.
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2013
  7. Haruno

    Haruno I choose you!
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    So why is skarm A rank again?
  8. Jimmyftw

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    Apparently because it walls Ekiller, which ironically, is also A rank. It also set up spikes, so there are two reasons.
  9. Punchshroom

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    I believe access to Spikes, recovery in Roost, a phazing move to hold off most physical boosters, a wonderful typing that allows it to stop Pokemon such as Groudon, Excadrill, Ekiller, Tyranitar, Garchomp and Ghostceus among others, and Taunt to stop opposing setup (mainly hazards from Ferro and Forry) are all factors for its A-Rank placing.
  10. Haruno

    Haruno I choose you!
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    The things it supposedly checks is rather mediocre however. Limited entirely to sd arceus, possibly chomp, groudon without a fire move, tytar and that's about it. Which is a whopping 4 mons which isn't saying that much. Other physical attackers have little to no difficulty breaking skarm unless they do something stupid like outrage or whatnot. Otherwise skarm isn't tanking much. Being able to turn set up bait into set up bait isn't worthy of an A rank by any means so mehs. I think B is a fair spot considering physical attackers aren't that common and the ones that are break skarm with relative ease.
  11. Haruno

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    4- SpA Life Orb Rayquaza Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Skarmory: 333-393 (99.7 - 117.66%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO
    252 Atk Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Skarmory: 320-380 (95.8 - 113.77%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Skarmory: 260-307 (77.84 - 91.91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Skarmory: 359-424 (107.48 - 126.94%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb Groudon Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Skarmory in sun: 265-315 (79.34 - 94.31%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Skarmory: 162-192 (48.5 - 57.48%) -- 55.08% chance to 2HKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Skarmory in rain: 175-207 (52.39 - 61.97%) -- 98.83% chance to 2HKO

    It's not walling shit.
    Kebabe, RiskVsRewardPlayer and Hack like this.
  12. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo I am hungry
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    Arc Ghost, Arc N, Tina-O, Latias, Ferro, Forry, Genesect, Arc Grass, Arc Ground, Arc Steel, Excadrill, Tina-A, Tyranitar are all checked and/or Spikes fodder for Skarmory. (and that's just S to A rank) Although I do enjoy how you randomly cherry picked calcs out of the pool of select physical attackers it does not wall.
  13. Haruno

    Haruno I choose you!
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    +1 252 SpA Arceus-Ghost Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Skarmory: 183-216 (54.79 - 64.67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


    252 SpA Giratina-O Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Skarmory: 144-170 (43.11 - 50.89%) -- 55.86% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    148 SpA Soul Dew Latias Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Skarmory: 316-374 (94.61 - 111.97%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    252 SpA Genesect Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Skarmory: 194-230 (58.08 - 68.86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    0 SpA Tyranitar Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Skarmory: 164-194 (49.1 - 58.08%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    The rest are general walls with the arceus forms outspeeding and forry spinning on skarm. Ferro loses but meh. And sd arceus are checked as I mentioned and they can run fire blast/flamethrower if skarm concerns you thatmuch
  14. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo I am hungry
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    Ghost arc gets phazed out and relies on Focus Miss (while also doesn't always run special attack) so that's definitely a check. Tina-O doesn't run HP Fire anymore (rarely that is) and aren't even factoring Rain nor the possibiltiy that he doesn't use HP Fire on the switch-in so that's a another thing checked. A lot of Latias will opt for Psyshock (if even that) but yeah I should have specified it at least, still checks. Genesect don't often run Flamethrower nor max spatk and again no Rain so another thing checked. Ttar is slower than Skarm so he just Roost stalls for a miss and lols.

    If you have to opt for lesser/uncommon coverage moves than that means Skarm is doing his job.
  15. Haruno

    Haruno I choose you!
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    I didn't even know latias had thunder until I saw you use it against anikram....

    We're not counting phazing and losing half your life in the process as a solid check are we? Prediction isn't a valid argument. If you're allowed to factor in rain why wouldn't sun be allowed? Also if we're talking about teammates kyogre isn't even one of the top 10 teammates accompanying skarm. And if you do factor in rain there are a huge amount of things that forces it out with rain boosted surfs and 100% accurate thunders. Skarm =/= it offers less utility while checking far fewer and more obscure threats. B rank at best imo
  16. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo I am hungry
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    Depends on what you need Skarmer for. (although the losing half health issues only applies to certain ones of the quick list I posted) You can factor Sun, my point is that you can't ignore the strong possibility of Rain nor the prediction factor. Skarmory is obviously not meant to tank Thunder/Surfs and none of the mons I listed commonly use those moves (except Latias which I should have mentioned were the equally/more common Psyshock variants) Skarm offers plenty of utility; Spikes, Taunt, Phazing.
  17. Haruno

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    You can't factor in prediction since it goes both ways. Will you predict I dpulse and switchin your skarm or will I predict the skarm and use thunder? Or maybe you think that I'm going to thunder so instead you opt to stay in but then what if I think that you'll predict my thunder and opt to stay in and opt to use dpulse instead? Yeah, exactly. Prediction is not a usable argument since it works both ways.

    The problem with losing half your health and then phazing is you have no control over w/e the hell comes in and more likely than not, it'll be an attacker that can finish the weakened skarm off with ease. Skarm lacks the bulk to take advantage of said utilities, we're not talking about ferro level walling where it can tank hits from the vast majority of the tier while skarm checks far less than it. Skarm struggles with physical attackers bar sd arceus, some exca, some chomp and some ty-tar's while being mauled by common special attackers. Overall it doesn't come close to walling the majority of the tier which loses it's value as a defensive pivot. Can it be good if said team has one of the things that it soft checks? Sure but even so those teams will also have something that remove skarm with ease. Overall skarm doesn't wall enough nor does it wall well enough to be considered mid A. Either skarm goes down or ferro moves up.

    edit: on an unrelated note, how can you call chomp slow?
  18. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo I am hungry
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    Exactly my point. Prediction goes both ways so you can't just say HP Fire 2HKOs and call it a day. (besides the point now but whatevs)

    I listed quite a few mons already that Skarmory can Spike on. (that was again just S to A rank) There's only like 2-4ish from that list that Skarmer isn't in a position to click Spikes.

    Avoid mon comparisons, we'll address their placement individually. X vs Y doesn't get us anywhere besides proving that they aren't the same thing.

    (I'm greedy and want Chomp to outspeed Arceus ;-; )

    I've not forgotten about Dialga.

    Edit:
    So for Dialga I'm going to use the definitions again to share my opinion on it but this time move forwards.

    When it comes to offense Dialga isn't lacking. Although he may not be the first thing that comes to mind when you think of something that sweeps a team, that's not the only form of offense. Choice Specs Dialga (the prime example that I'm going to focus on) is one of the most dangerous wall breakers in the metagame which should definitely count for something. Although 150 SpAtk Specs Dragon STAB isn't exactly unique, his wide coverage options and excellent typing limits the number safe switch-ins and easily buys him the free turns to punch holes while resisting the wear and tear of active play. Not going to go into much more detail because sets like Choice Specs really sell Dialga in the offensive department, what ironically concerns me is the defensive capabilities.

    As great as Dialga's typing is, he just lacks the raw bulk/recovery to be a lasting threat. He does at least have a viable RestTalk set but with only 100/120/100 (with the typing geared towards tanking special attacks) you can't really use it other than as a stall breaker. Being a one/two time check to things is kinda lame. However, Dialga is one of those few things that can blindly switch into Palkia and check it no matter move it clicks which is definitely big. As a general tank he can check all sorts of things that makes him really valuable for a team. If offensive capability isn't only sweeping is defensive capability only walling? I want to say that the same comparison between applying prolonged offensive pressure and being able to reapply instant, massive offensive pressure isn't the same thing as taking a hit once versus taking a hit multiple times.

    At least Dialga is very diverse and can fit a lot of different roles designed for different teams. There's no real opportunity cost to using him and he definitely doesn't require support. Although, he doesn't give THAT much utility to a team besides Stealth Rock but he is very good at setting it. Overall, I'm again on the high A rank side of the fence but I would actually be more willing to stick Dialga in S rank than Groudon.
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2013
  19. Jimmyftw

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    I feel like when people in this forum talk about Arceus-Normal's viability, they tend to overstate it's predictability. Yes, basically every Ekiller set up a Sword Dance and sweep, but there is one very special move that Arceus has in his arsenal that I believe to be underrated: Recover. With Recover, dealing with Ekiller is a whole different story as the checks to an Ekiller with three attacks are drastically different than an Ekiller wielding Recover.

    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ubers-51228084 vs Datamine
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ubers-51214540 vs Hack
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ubers-51224435 vs hyw 9908
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ubers-50154631 vs Draconian42
  20. ogasian

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    The thing is, with Recover, you get walled by Ferro, Skarm, Arceus Steel, pretty much every defensive steel type and still get revenged by Terrakion, Kabutops, Omastar, checked by Giratina, etc.
  21. Blue Jay

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    To sum up these replays:
    1. Ekiller beats a team with no Ekiller check.
    2. Ekiller beats a team with Fightceus as the only real check due to a low damage roll with Fightceus (and even then Genesect could have KO'd with a high damage roll).
    3. Ekiller benefits more from Recover than coverage against a team with no bulky steel types.
    4. Ekiller wins against misplays (Hydro Pump would KO).

    In short, I'm not sure what these replays are meant to prove.

    Yes, with Recover Ekiller can perform better against certain teams, but the same holds for literally all its additional options (Shadow Force, Overheat, Life Orb, Lum Berry, etc). Some of its usual checks no longer check it effectively, but instead Steel types check it more effectively than before. All in all, the standard set is a significantly more effective lategame sweeper, although this set boasts occasionally being able to attempt multiple sweeps in a match.
    Haruno likes this.
  22. Haruno

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    If you're going to list examples of when recover saved you then it's fair for me to show the opposite right?

    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ubers-51116451
    If you had eq/bb over recover then you might've won

    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ubers-50903068
    if you had eq/bb over recover which you didn't even get to use then you would've had a better chance of winning other than relying on focus miss to miss several times.

    cbf to look for more replays but there's no denying that recover has some niche use on ekiller and is arguably better on some teams but in general it isn't since no matter what you only have 2 moves.

    Espeed/shadow claw/force = walled by bulky steels
    espeed/earthquake = walled by ghosts and does nothing to gira-o
    espeed/brick break = does nothing to ghosts

    As opposed to
    espeed/shadow something/brick break = walled by skarm/forry
    espeed/shadow something/eq = walled by skarm/ferro

    There's a huge difference in the things that it covers and overall the recovery it obtains just isn't worth it in most cases since you'll be under enough pressure where you're never getting a chance to use it or just outright sweeping with ekiller.

    /fails
  23. Fag Swag

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    I take two issues with the structure of how we are talking about these pokemon. Rank S should be about pokemon that define the metagame. There are only a few pokemon that define the metagame, and ghostceus is certainly not one of them. In addition to being easily defeated, and walled by many lesser tier pokemon that are far more common (ferrothorn, in particular comes to mind) it is also easily defeated by one of the pokemon it is supposed to check: E-Killer. With a single swords dance, two shadow claws will destroy a ghostceus, so unless there is a lot of previous damage or heavy hazard support, one of the pokemon that ghostceus is supposed to check is removed with relative ease. Given that ghostceus often takes up the mantle of a spinblocker and is lured out by E-Killer, it seems silly (to use the nicest word possible) to have him in Rank S.

    Other pokemon that I believe define the ubers metagame to a much higher degree and need significantly less supporty to function as part of a cohesive strategy [another thing ignored by the viability thread are how well certain pokemon pair together, thus mewtwo and genesect are given far weaker ranks than their actual viability in an ubers match] are Groudon (which I know has been hated upon by many) and E-Killer Himself, who may be predictable and derided as crutcheus for bad players, but are nonetheless far more potent and versatile threats than ghostceus.
  24. Punchshroom

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    Ghostceus is easily defeated? I don't know about you, but I can't think of one Pokemon that lays claim to walling both SD Ghostceus and CM Ghostceus. The fact that it is the best Ghostceus that can use both Swords Dance and Calm Mind well makes it very versatile and difficult to stop from the get go. Perhaps you got lucky with Ferrothorn, because boosted Focus Blast/Brick Break hurts while Flamethrower (which it does carry for Spinners like Excadrill and Forretress) roasts Ferro alive. That's another big thing Ghostceus has: spinblocking. Being the only spinblocker with reliable recovery and good offensive presence, it is ridiculously easy to prevent a Spin, ensuring things like Ho-oh and Kyurem-W get stunted for the rest of the match.

    Most Ghostceus can beat E-Killer relatively easily because E-Killer does not run much Speed, so Ghostceus should capitilize on that fact by running more Speed than E-Killer and Will-o-Wisp E-Killer, or just hit it with a Fighting move.
  25. Blue Jay

    Blue Jay The notorious J Lube
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
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    First and foremost, Arceus-Ghost is a soft check to Ekiller if anything. It should not be a primary solution for it in any team, so that argument is relatively unfounded. That being said, any CM Arceus-Ghost with an offensive spread stands a solid chance of 2HKOing Ekiller without prior damage, while the standard spread has a chance to 2HKO it after SR. If not for Focus Blast's accuracy, it could actually check standard Ekiller at least as effectively as Scarf Terrakion and Arceus-Fighting.

    As for Ferrothorn walling CM Arceus-Ghost, this is again not true beyond relying on the atrocious accuracy of Focus Blast failing its user. Things that check it after a turn of set up are Darkrai (which cannot afford to switch in unless Arceus-Ghost has no boosts and Darkrai is very close to full health), powerful physical Scarfmon that are not weak to any of its attacks (Zekrom is the only common one that fits this category, although Genesect can succeed with some lucky flinches), Ho-Oh (which must be very healthy if SR is on the field), Blissey/Chansey, Jirachi and then some obscure Pokemon or very soft checks. Teams lacking one of these are forced to play around Arceus-Ghost and use a combination of Pokemon (which often means having to sack something in order to stop Arceus-Ghost).

    However, the argument for Arceus-Ghost is not that it is a more devastating sweeper than Ekiller. Rather, it is very potent because it can serve as a general tank, having enough bulk to absorb many neutral hits and heal off the damage, provides a team with a bulky spinblocker as well as valuable defensive synergy, and still pose a veritable offensive threat. It does not mind coming in early- or midgame and has a far better chance of attempting a sweep more than once.

    In addition to all of this, it may of course use its SD set, which has largely different checks and can surprise opponents expecting the CM set. And then finally it can run a support set similar to Wallceus (and a lead set but meh).

    That being said, whether or not Groudon should be S-rank has been debated from both sides recently. If you want to make a case for it, it would be nice if you would read through the arguments made and see what you can contribute, as nothing is less useful for this thread than revisiting the rankings of Pokemon without any new arguments.

    I'm also not sure what you mean about Genesect and Mewtwo. Genesect's U-Turn is possibly the foremost reason it is ranked so highly. U-Turn has amazing utility for teams, allowing its user to bring in whichever of its teammates is the most opportune. This does not mean it makes for an amazing synergistic combination with Mewtwo, it just makes Genesect an outstanding teammate to just about anything.

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