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Gen 5 The Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Now Taking Write-Ups)

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Tobes, Oct 27, 2012.

  1. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    Exactly my point. Prediction goes both ways so you can't just say HP Fire 2HKOs and call it a day. (besides the point now but whatevs)

    I listed quite a few mons already that Skarmory can Spike on. (that was again just S to A rank) There's only like 2-4ish from that list that Skarmer isn't in a position to click Spikes.

    Avoid mon comparisons, we'll address their placement individually. X vs Y doesn't get us anywhere besides proving that they aren't the same thing.

    (I'm greedy and want Chomp to outspeed Arceus ;-; )

    I've not forgotten about Dialga.

    Edit:
    So for Dialga I'm going to use the definitions again to share my opinion on it but this time move forwards.

    When it comes to offense Dialga isn't lacking. Although he may not be the first thing that comes to mind when you think of something that sweeps a team, that's not the only form of offense. Choice Specs Dialga (the prime example that I'm going to focus on) is one of the most dangerous wall breakers in the metagame which should definitely count for something. Although 150 SpAtk Specs Dragon STAB isn't exactly unique, his wide coverage options and excellent typing limits the number safe switch-ins and easily buys him the free turns to punch holes while resisting the wear and tear of active play. Not going to go into much more detail because sets like Choice Specs really sell Dialga in the offensive department, what ironically concerns me is the defensive capabilities.

    As great as Dialga's typing is, he just lacks the raw bulk/recovery to be a lasting threat. He does at least have a viable RestTalk set but with only 100/120/100 (with the typing geared towards tanking special attacks) you can't really use it other than as a stall breaker. Being a one/two time check to things is kinda lame. However, Dialga is one of those few things that can blindly switch into Palkia and check it no matter move it clicks which is definitely big. As a general tank he can check all sorts of things that makes him really valuable for a team. If offensive capability isn't only sweeping is defensive capability only walling? I want to say that the same comparison between applying prolonged offensive pressure and being able to reapply instant, massive offensive pressure isn't the same thing as taking a hit once versus taking a hit multiple times.

    At least Dialga is very diverse and can fit a lot of different roles designed for different teams. There's no real opportunity cost to using him and he definitely doesn't require support. Although, he doesn't give THAT much utility to a team besides Stealth Rock but he is very good at setting it. Overall, I'm again on the high A rank side of the fence but I would actually be more willing to stick Dialga in S rank than Groudon.
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2013
  2. Jimmyftw

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    I feel like when people in this forum talk about Arceus-Normal's viability, they tend to overstate it's predictability. Yes, basically every Ekiller set up a Sword Dance and sweep, but there is one very special move that Arceus has in his arsenal that I believe to be underrated: Recover. With Recover, dealing with Ekiller is a whole different story as the checks to an Ekiller with three attacks are drastically different than an Ekiller wielding Recover.

    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ubers-51228084 vs Datamine
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ubers-51214540 vs Hack
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ubers-51224435 vs hyw 9908
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ubers-50154631 vs Draconian42
  3. ogasian

    ogasian

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    The thing is, with Recover, you get walled by Ferro, Skarm, Arceus Steel, pretty much every defensive steel type and still get revenged by Terrakion, Kabutops, Omastar, checked by Giratina, etc.
  4. Blue Jay

    Blue Jay The notorious J Lube
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    To sum up these replays:
    1. Ekiller beats a team with no Ekiller check.
    2. Ekiller beats a team with Fightceus as the only real check due to a low damage roll with Fightceus (and even then Genesect could have KO'd with a high damage roll).
    3. Ekiller benefits more from Recover than coverage against a team with no bulky steel types.
    4. Ekiller wins against misplays (Hydro Pump would KO).

    In short, I'm not sure what these replays are meant to prove.

    Yes, with Recover Ekiller can perform better against certain teams, but the same holds for literally all its additional options (Shadow Force, Overheat, Life Orb, Lum Berry, etc). Some of its usual checks no longer check it effectively, but instead Steel types check it more effectively than before. All in all, the standard set is a significantly more effective lategame sweeper, although this set boasts occasionally being able to attempt multiple sweeps in a match.
    Haruno likes this.
  5. Haruno

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    If you're going to list examples of when recover saved you then it's fair for me to show the opposite right?

    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ubers-51116451
    If you had eq/bb over recover then you might've won

    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ubers-50903068
    if you had eq/bb over recover which you didn't even get to use then you would've had a better chance of winning other than relying on focus miss to miss several times.

    cbf to look for more replays but there's no denying that recover has some niche use on ekiller and is arguably better on some teams but in general it isn't since no matter what you only have 2 moves.

    Espeed/shadow claw/force = walled by bulky steels
    espeed/earthquake = walled by ghosts and does nothing to gira-o
    espeed/brick break = does nothing to ghosts

    As opposed to
    espeed/shadow something/brick break = walled by skarm/forry
    espeed/shadow something/eq = walled by skarm/ferro

    There's a huge difference in the things that it covers and overall the recovery it obtains just isn't worth it in most cases since you'll be under enough pressure where you're never getting a chance to use it or just outright sweeping with ekiller.

    /fails
  6. Fag Swag

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    I take two issues with the structure of how we are talking about these pokemon. Rank S should be about pokemon that define the metagame. There are only a few pokemon that define the metagame, and ghostceus is certainly not one of them. In addition to being easily defeated, and walled by many lesser tier pokemon that are far more common (ferrothorn, in particular comes to mind) it is also easily defeated by one of the pokemon it is supposed to check: E-Killer. With a single swords dance, two shadow claws will destroy a ghostceus, so unless there is a lot of previous damage or heavy hazard support, one of the pokemon that ghostceus is supposed to check is removed with relative ease. Given that ghostceus often takes up the mantle of a spinblocker and is lured out by E-Killer, it seems silly (to use the nicest word possible) to have him in Rank S.

    Other pokemon that I believe define the ubers metagame to a much higher degree and need significantly less supporty to function as part of a cohesive strategy [another thing ignored by the viability thread are how well certain pokemon pair together, thus mewtwo and genesect are given far weaker ranks than their actual viability in an ubers match] are Groudon (which I know has been hated upon by many) and E-Killer Himself, who may be predictable and derided as crutcheus for bad players, but are nonetheless far more potent and versatile threats than ghostceus.
  7. Punchshroom

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    Ghostceus is easily defeated? I don't know about you, but I can't think of one Pokemon that lays claim to walling both SD Ghostceus and CM Ghostceus. The fact that it is the best Ghostceus that can use both Swords Dance and Calm Mind well makes it very versatile and difficult to stop from the get go. Perhaps you got lucky with Ferrothorn, because boosted Focus Blast/Brick Break hurts while Flamethrower (which it does carry for Spinners like Excadrill and Forretress) roasts Ferro alive. That's another big thing Ghostceus has: spinblocking. Being the only spinblocker with reliable recovery and good offensive presence, it is ridiculously easy to prevent a Spin, ensuring things like Ho-oh and Kyurem-W get stunted for the rest of the match.

    Most Ghostceus can beat E-Killer relatively easily because E-Killer does not run much Speed, so Ghostceus should capitilize on that fact by running more Speed than E-Killer and Will-o-Wisp E-Killer, or just hit it with a Fighting move.
  8. Blue Jay

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    First and foremost, Arceus-Ghost is a soft check to Ekiller if anything. It should not be a primary solution for it in any team, so that argument is relatively unfounded. That being said, any CM Arceus-Ghost with an offensive spread stands a solid chance of 2HKOing Ekiller without prior damage, while the standard spread has a chance to 2HKO it after SR. If not for Focus Blast's accuracy, it could actually check standard Ekiller at least as effectively as Scarf Terrakion and Arceus-Fighting.

    As for Ferrothorn walling CM Arceus-Ghost, this is again not true beyond relying on the atrocious accuracy of Focus Blast failing its user. Things that check it after a turn of set up are Darkrai (which cannot afford to switch in unless Arceus-Ghost has no boosts and Darkrai is very close to full health), powerful physical Scarfmon that are not weak to any of its attacks (Zekrom is the only common one that fits this category, although Genesect can succeed with some lucky flinches), Ho-Oh (which must be very healthy if SR is on the field), Blissey/Chansey, Jirachi and then some obscure Pokemon or very soft checks. Teams lacking one of these are forced to play around Arceus-Ghost and use a combination of Pokemon (which often means having to sack something in order to stop Arceus-Ghost).

    However, the argument for Arceus-Ghost is not that it is a more devastating sweeper than Ekiller. Rather, it is very potent because it can serve as a general tank, having enough bulk to absorb many neutral hits and heal off the damage, provides a team with a bulky spinblocker as well as valuable defensive synergy, and still pose a veritable offensive threat. It does not mind coming in early- or midgame and has a far better chance of attempting a sweep more than once.

    In addition to all of this, it may of course use its SD set, which has largely different checks and can surprise opponents expecting the CM set. And then finally it can run a support set similar to Wallceus (and a lead set but meh).

    That being said, whether or not Groudon should be S-rank has been debated from both sides recently. If you want to make a case for it, it would be nice if you would read through the arguments made and see what you can contribute, as nothing is less useful for this thread than revisiting the rankings of Pokemon without any new arguments.

    I'm also not sure what you mean about Genesect and Mewtwo. Genesect's U-Turn is possibly the foremost reason it is ranked so highly. U-Turn has amazing utility for teams, allowing its user to bring in whichever of its teammates is the most opportune. This does not mean it makes for an amazing synergistic combination with Mewtwo, it just makes Genesect an outstanding teammate to just about anything.
  9. cfdu1202

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    I agree with what you said on the ranking structure, as S-Rank should be the pokemons that define the metagame. (Basically, Kyogre and Groudon.)

    However, I won't debate on the ranking of Arceus-Normal. For me, he's A, because the defensive set has so much opportunity cost. Wallceus does definitely not worth A-Rank. As a wall you have much better choices in the metagame, such as Skarmory, Groudon, Hippowdon, Landorus-T...and you sacrifice another form of Arceus to it.
    Now, Arceus-Ghost is definitely S-Rank, not because he shapes the meta, but it's a ridiculous pokemon on his own. The combination of high bulk, high speed, ghost-typing and decent offense cannot be found into any other pokemon. He can set up CM on pretty much 2/3 of the pokemon in Uber, and forces to use counters (they are fewer than extremekiller's counters!) such as Darkrai, SpDef Kyogre, Tank Ho-Oh, Tyranitar (only once). That's right, only four counters. (I won't count Arceus-Dark) Kyogre may be more useful when running a choiced set, depending on the team, Darkrai cannot take a Focus Blast, and Ho-Oh is hard to fit in a lot of teams, Tyranitar brings sand which can be disadvantaging for your own team. His has a lot of utility: SR+Spinblock(who, in Uber, can do this?), Magic Coat, ability to beat spikers (all of them).
    His defensive set has huge advantages over the standard normal wallceus. He can spinblock, he has a better typing, and runs 252+ in speed, which means he can burn a lot of pokemons before taking an attack, unlike Wallceus. Not to mention his immunity to Extremespeed (Hi SD Ray and Arceus!).
    Overall Arceus-Ghost is very effective in the metagame, and shouldn't be anywhere else than S.
  10. Haruno

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    Opportunity cost is one shitty argument. If you're running ekiller then you lose out on running cm ghostceus or sd ghostceus or support ghostceus or hail iceceus or sd dragceus, etc. So regardless of the form it still has massive opportunity costs. Not to mention we're rating mons as a whole not individual sets. SD/filler/filler/filler normal ceus is one of the sets normalceus can run it isn't normalceus itself.

    As for your ghostceus argument, he lacks an item bar spooky plate. Not to mention that 252+ speed statement makes no sense whatsoever. Smogon's analysis sets aren't the only sets out there. What stops normalceus from running lefties/scarf or whatnot to help cripple attackers or prolong its longevity? Nothing unlike ghostceus. So if you're really going to make an argument for ghostceus please don't use some one sided crap. Bulky arceus isn't that sturdy just fyi.
  11. Punchshroom

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    I bolded these statements not just because they are (to put it lightly) ludicrous, but you did not back it up with any arguments.

    Max Speed Ghostceus outspeeds Lati@s and Adamant E-Killer, 3 prominent and dangerous Pokemon that it can check. You can by all means favor bulk over speed, but missing out on those 3 can be pretty big. Max SpA/Atk and max Speed also maximizes its sweeping potential anyhow, after all it has 2 effective boosting sets, outruns the majority of the tier and has perfect 2-move coverage.

    Scarf Arceus-Normal? Please enlighten me on how rendering its main niche (STAB Extreemespeed) completely moot is a good thing for Arceus. I can forgive if you suggested BandCeus or something, but Scarf brings no benefits whatsoever since it's not revenge killing much of anything with unSTABed/non super-effective moves.

    120/120/120 isn't bulky? I swear people these days are expecting too much even from the Ubers, which is saying a lot. These are marvelous stats for any boosting sweeper and certainly workable from a defensive standpoint. Arceus has a slew of support options like Will-o-Wisp, Recover, Refresh and other options to keep itself alive.
  12. Haruno

    Haruno

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    Is jolly ekiller a thing now? News to me. Sorry for being completely unaware of how amazing 252+ speed ekiller is (hint it's not). Defensive latias don't really care for a burn and can just phaze ghostceus and/or setup light screen if needed so don't see an argument there. Offensive latias just sucks (lol @ getting 2hko'd by kyogre's scarf ice beam). Latios is a bit of a tossup anyhow with neither being able to ohko the other while latios can significantly dent ghostceus. Honestly a bulky ghostceus will beat latios 100% of the time while support ghostceus is forced to heavily predict. Overall it works as a check but not really a solid check.

    Eh I just listed random shit of the top of my head. Overall it bashes the point that cfdu made of normal ceus comprising of well ekiller and its variants and completely ignoring every other set which is absurd. Should've mentioned band but oh well. inb4MM2saysekillerisntrevengingcrap

    252hp ev's will still get you 2hko'd by the most prominent uber threats iirc. Hence why I said 252hp/252+ spd for a supportceus is garbage and it's more favorable to go for a spread similar to err 252hp/40def/160+ SpD/56spd or if you're more physically inclined switch the def and the SpD evs around. A support mon getting 2hko'd isn't much of a support mon at all.
  13. Jimmyftw

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    I'm not sure what you're trying to advance, really... I didn't say Ekiller with Recover is any more or less better than the standard set. I am just using Ekiller's access to Recover to dispel the notion that Ekiller is predictable, a argument many use against Arceus-Normal being S-rank.

    Yes, I have my fair share of losts because I didn't have the right set at the right time, but this is really universal in all battles. Yes, Ekiller beats this and gets wall by that with a particular set and beat this and that with another, but so does fellow S-rank Pokemon Kyogre. CM Kyogre has a easier time against Ferrothorn and Palkia, however this limits the coverage and wallbreaking power of Choice Spec Kyogre. If Arceus-Normal had one set that beats everything, it wouldn't be allowed in Uber, now would it?

    All in all, the standard Ekiller set is really two distinct sets, Sword Dance + three attacks and Bulky Set-Up Sweeper with Recover. And along with Wallceus and Bandceus, Arceus-Normal is more versatile than people think it is.

    Relevant calc:
    252+ Atk Choice Band Kabutops Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Normal: 338-398 (76.64 - 90.24%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Ekiller is favored to win over it's check 75% of the time if Kabutop switch in on Sword Dance.

    252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Normal: 336-396 (76.19 - 89.79%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Has a very low chance to OHKO while taking massive damage in return.

    4 SpA Arceus-Ghost Focus Blast vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Normal: 174-206 (39.45 - 46.71%) -- 31.25% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    Not really a check.
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2013
  14. cfdu1202

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    First of all, Support =/= wall. A support mon is used to provide utility for your team, not to absorb powerful attacks. And here lies the ranking difference between the two Arceuses. Arceus-Ghost provides general utility to your team, being your spinblocker, checking things with will-O-wisp, holding the team together thanks to his useful resistances. How is Arceus-Normal supporting his team with his shitty typing, when you can use other Arceus forms? Setting up SR? There's only two advantages that Arceus-Normal has over his other forms, which are: 1) ability to hold an item 2)Stab on Extremespeed.

    When you use Arceus-Ghost, you don't have an opportunity cost. No pokemon can do better than what he does. Extremekiller has little opportunity cost, as he has a wonderful niche in a decently powerful priority STAB. Now, when you take Arceus-Ice (it's your example), you're better using Kyurem-W + another arceus form. So no, not every Arceus forms have an opportunity cost, your point is invalid.

    You're better using Overheat or Lum Berry on Arceus to mess up with his counters, even if it relies on Sun support or Spikes support. BandTrickArceus is kinda effective if the opponent is using Skarm/Giratina as Arceus's counter, but is highly ineffective against offensive teams that use pokemons such as Terrakion to deal with Arceus. Defensive Giratina-O, another counter to extremekilller, is immune to trick, same with Arceus-Fighting.

    And lol @ 120/120/120 defenses not bulky. If 252HP Arceus isn't sturdy, then I don't know what to say. Besides that some people uses Extremekiller's bulk, which consists of 88 Evs in HP (it's the standard set fyi), as an argument to raise him to S-Rank.

    Tell me one Calm Minder in Uber who can beat specially defensive Latias besides his brother Latios.
    What's your point telling me Arceus-Ghost is a shaky check to Lati@s? Even if your argument was correct it won't help the case of Arceus-Normal. There's a move called recover that Arceus-Ghost can use when he switches into Latios's Draco Meteor, since he outspeeds with 252+.
    Offensive Latias is always eved to avoid the 2HKO from Kyogre's Ice Beam. Otherwise use Latios.
    120 speed is very good, and anyone using Arceus should take advantage of his speed, even though some Arceus might put a few Evs into defenses, like Arceus-Grass, in order to avoid some important 2HKO. Remember in Gen4 when Lugia was eved to be faster than Garchomp? People did that to mitigate some damage by setting up reflect before, or to use roost before taking another attack. That's exactly the same thing, it's always better to cripple a pokemon with burn than having to take an attack before burning him. You can recover before taking an attack, or even Ko the opponent, which you could not have done if you had run less speed.
  15. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    Actually, that isn't true. I'm not sure predictability was even brought up once during the Arc-N discussion. Here is a good post giving you an idea of what issues that discussion revolved around. I also strongly suggest you read pages 15-16 (maybe to 17 as well I can't remember where it ends) before commenting further on Arceus-Normal as I'm fairly certain whatever points you would like to raise have already been mentioned.
  16. Punchshroom

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    ...What are you talking about here? At no point did I suggest Jolly Arceus-N is even good, much less viable. Latias obviously doesn't fear burn, but Judgement will do a good number while Shadow Force can OHKO her. Don't know why you're talking about offensive Latias when no one else is, but it should be noted that even defensive Latias will run enough Speed to outrun things like Kyurem-W, Garchomp or Rayquaza so she doesn't get bowled over, so it is advised to just run Speed on Ghostceus to harass Lati@s, and appreciates the ability to burn, heal or attack before its opponents can fight back anyway. The argument that bulky Ghostceus beats Latios all the time is mitigated by the fact that support Ghostceus also does the same due to the speed advantage, able to switch into Draco Meteor and healing before the second one.

    I also took a look at your 252 HP/40 Def/160+ SpD/56 Spe...this gives you 293 Speed. I have no clue what you're aiming for here: it's too much for Adamant Rayquaza who only has 289 Speed, and is too slow for positive base 90s who have 309 Speed or neutral base 100s with 299 Speed.
  17. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    What's wrong with Jolly Ekiller? Personally, I think it's pretty much equally viable as all the other Ekiller sets. With Jolly, you're not revenge killed by CB Terrakion, not burned by stuff like Ghostceus and so on. You could say Lum also beats WoW toting Arceuses, but Lum Ekiller is a weak piece of shit that can't even OHKO Mewtwo. Sure, you've lost a bunch of bulk, but this all depends on your team for what they need. Sometimes Jolly Ekiller is more viable given the goals of the team.
  18. Haruno

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    You're giving up a shit ton of bulk and power to run jolly =/ probably the main reason for not recommending it considering the extra speed doesn't help for anything bar terrakion while most other things get cleanly ohko'd by a +2 muscle band espeed.
  19. effyouzion

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    Haven't checked this thread in like 10 pages, but it's nice to see we're still discussing ekiller's viability (I'm all for s-rank on arc normal btw).

    I like jolly ekiller w/ silk scarf on my offensive teams that use deoxys-s. Since I'm always going to have at least rocks (and usually a layer of spikes too), espeed still nets all the KOs I need. The loss of HP EVs isn't a big deal because, if you play it right, you shouldn't need your ekiller to take more than one hit when you set up. And since you're jolly, other ekillers can't revenge you, either, unless you're really low on health (<35%).

    I used lum berry on my ekiller back when we did the sleep suspect, but I haaaaaaated it. Arceus was made for silk scarf.
  20. Shaymin 492

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    Lum EKiller does well with hazards support, it can get the crucial KO's at +2 with SR and one layer of Spikes most of the time. Also, why is Kabutops the same rank as Shaymin-S? Shaymin-S is such a momentum killer, it gets outsped by every single scarfer (and Mewtwo). The Scarf set is a good revenge killer, but it's too weak and Modest Air Slash does like 30% to uninvested stuff in Ubers such as Scarf Palkia. Heck, even Modest Seed Fare can't OHKO 4/0 Kyogre most of the time. I think Kabutops should be moved to low A, most teams are rain, so normally Swift Swim will be active, and maybe move Skymin down to mid B.
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2013
  21. Melee Mewtwo

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    Kabutops is a great mon but he also has a lot of problems with the mons you don't want him to struggle with. As a Swift Swimmer, being checked so easily by Groudon is disappointing while, as a Rapid Spin user, being counted by Giratina gets really frustrating. Good enough for high B but not quite low A.

    Skymin is still a really annoying offensive threat cause of flinching and spdef drops. It forces a lot of switches which makes the subseed set really good and it can even do cool stuff with Healing Wish. Yeah, it has it's problems but I don't think they are enough for it to drop.
  22. superstar

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    In the OU viability ranking thread, PK Gaming pointed out that C-rank mons are really the lowest that should be used in any sort of tournament or high-level play. This makes sense, since C-rank mons should naturally have niches for the best players, whereas D-rank mons are kinda things that you can mess around with on the ladder. So, I'd suggest that the following mons be dropped down to D-rank, in order of how good they are:

    -Bisharp: Impossible to set up with, can't ever switch in
    -Hydregion: Outclassed by the plethora of more powerful, bulkier, and in some cases faster Dragons in Ubers
    -Qwilfish: I know it theoretically has a use, but....
    -Jynx: It can switch into Kyogre I guess, but come on guys
  23. Melee Mewtwo

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    I wouldn't say Bisharp is impossible to setup with. It's tricky trying to get it in AND setup but it's not that hard since it has that lovely steel typing. Really the thing that fucks it over the most is the prediction based on Sucker Punch and the WoW weakness. (plus the lack of utility etc.) I'm not sure about dropping it off to D rank.

    I haven't played with Hydreigon yet but a Head Smashing and U-Turning Scarf Dragon sounds kinda fun. (you aren't Ho-Oh fodder at least) I'll leave this to those who have tried it though. I know Faint used it in a research week so I'd like to hear what he has to say.

    I've really wanted to try Qwilfish at some point but can never find the reason because it's basically a suicide hazards lead that can't lead. Again, I'll leave this to others to add in their opinion.

    IDK Jynx looks fun with that speed and Lovely Kiss and shit. Only really works against rain teams though that's true. IIRC shrang was the one who wrote up the analysis for it so maybe he can add his input.
  24. Faint

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    Dec 23, 2007
    Messages:
    1,676
    Posting from my phone atm but I haved used Hydreigon in both a RW and regular ladder play, so I'll edit this post later talking about my results. I know I spoke about it in a few threads too, so maybe I can dig up those posts as well.
    Melee Mewtwo likes this.
  25. superstar

    superstar

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2011
    Messages:
    320
    Didn't know it got Head Smash, and I forgot about U-turn! Seems pretty interesting I'll have to try it out. Bisharp is definitely the most borderline of these guys; I feel like it is less viable than most of the C-rank, but it is certainly a cut above of the D-rank
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2013

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