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Gen 5 The Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Now Taking Write-Ups)

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Tobes, Oct 27, 2012.

  1. cfdu1202

    cfdu1202

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    I agree with what you said on the ranking structure, as S-Rank should be the pokemons that define the metagame. (Basically, Kyogre and Groudon.)

    However, I won't debate on the ranking of Arceus-Normal. For me, he's A, because the defensive set has so much opportunity cost. Wallceus does definitely not worth A-Rank. As a wall you have much better choices in the metagame, such as Skarmory, Groudon, Hippowdon, Landorus-T...and you sacrifice another form of Arceus to it.
    Now, Arceus-Ghost is definitely S-Rank, not because he shapes the meta, but it's a ridiculous pokemon on his own. The combination of high bulk, high speed, ghost-typing and decent offense cannot be found into any other pokemon. He can set up CM on pretty much 2/3 of the pokemon in Uber, and forces to use counters (they are fewer than extremekiller's counters!) such as Darkrai, SpDef Kyogre, Tank Ho-Oh, Tyranitar (only once). That's right, only four counters. (I won't count Arceus-Dark) Kyogre may be more useful when running a choiced set, depending on the team, Darkrai cannot take a Focus Blast, and Ho-Oh is hard to fit in a lot of teams, Tyranitar brings sand which can be disadvantaging for your own team. His has a lot of utility: SR+Spinblock(who, in Uber, can do this?), Magic Coat, ability to beat spikers (all of them).
    His defensive set has huge advantages over the standard normal wallceus. He can spinblock, he has a better typing, and runs 252+ in speed, which means he can burn a lot of pokemons before taking an attack, unlike Wallceus. Not to mention his immunity to Extremespeed (Hi SD Ray and Arceus!).
    Overall Arceus-Ghost is very effective in the metagame, and shouldn't be anywhere else than S.
  2. Haruno

    Haruno I choose you!
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    Opportunity cost is one shitty argument. If you're running ekiller then you lose out on running cm ghostceus or sd ghostceus or support ghostceus or hail iceceus or sd dragceus, etc. So regardless of the form it still has massive opportunity costs. Not to mention we're rating mons as a whole not individual sets. SD/filler/filler/filler normal ceus is one of the sets normalceus can run it isn't normalceus itself.

    As for your ghostceus argument, he lacks an item bar spooky plate. Not to mention that 252+ speed statement makes no sense whatsoever. Smogon's analysis sets aren't the only sets out there. What stops normalceus from running lefties/scarf or whatnot to help cripple attackers or prolong its longevity? Nothing unlike ghostceus. So if you're really going to make an argument for ghostceus please don't use some one sided crap. Bulky arceus isn't that sturdy just fyi.
  3. Punchshroom

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    I bolded these statements not just because they are (to put it lightly) ludicrous, but you did not back it up with any arguments.

    Max Speed Ghostceus outspeeds Lati@s and Adamant E-Killer, 3 prominent and dangerous Pokemon that it can check. You can by all means favor bulk over speed, but missing out on those 3 can be pretty big. Max SpA/Atk and max Speed also maximizes its sweeping potential anyhow, after all it has 2 effective boosting sets, outruns the majority of the tier and has perfect 2-move coverage.

    Scarf Arceus-Normal? Please enlighten me on how rendering its main niche (STAB Extreemespeed) completely moot is a good thing for Arceus. I can forgive if you suggested BandCeus or something, but Scarf brings no benefits whatsoever since it's not revenge killing much of anything with unSTABed/non super-effective moves.

    120/120/120 isn't bulky? I swear people these days are expecting too much even from the Ubers, which is saying a lot. These are marvelous stats for any boosting sweeper and certainly workable from a defensive standpoint. Arceus has a slew of support options like Will-o-Wisp, Recover, Refresh and other options to keep itself alive.
  4. Haruno

    Haruno I choose you!
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    Is jolly ekiller a thing now? News to me. Sorry for being completely unaware of how amazing 252+ speed ekiller is (hint it's not). Defensive latias don't really care for a burn and can just phaze ghostceus and/or setup light screen if needed so don't see an argument there. Offensive latias just sucks (lol @ getting 2hko'd by kyogre's scarf ice beam). Latios is a bit of a tossup anyhow with neither being able to ohko the other while latios can significantly dent ghostceus. Honestly a bulky ghostceus will beat latios 100% of the time while support ghostceus is forced to heavily predict. Overall it works as a check but not really a solid check.

    Eh I just listed random shit of the top of my head. Overall it bashes the point that cfdu made of normal ceus comprising of well ekiller and its variants and completely ignoring every other set which is absurd. Should've mentioned band but oh well. inb4MM2saysekillerisntrevengingcrap

    252hp ev's will still get you 2hko'd by the most prominent uber threats iirc. Hence why I said 252hp/252+ spd for a supportceus is garbage and it's more favorable to go for a spread similar to err 252hp/40def/160+ SpD/56spd or if you're more physically inclined switch the def and the SpD evs around. A support mon getting 2hko'd isn't much of a support mon at all.
  5. Jimmyftw

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    I'm not sure what you're trying to advance, really... I didn't say Ekiller with Recover is any more or less better than the standard set. I am just using Ekiller's access to Recover to dispel the notion that Ekiller is predictable, a argument many use against Arceus-Normal being S-rank.

    Yes, I have my fair share of losts because I didn't have the right set at the right time, but this is really universal in all battles. Yes, Ekiller beats this and gets wall by that with a particular set and beat this and that with another, but so does fellow S-rank Pokemon Kyogre. CM Kyogre has a easier time against Ferrothorn and Palkia, however this limits the coverage and wallbreaking power of Choice Spec Kyogre. If Arceus-Normal had one set that beats everything, it wouldn't be allowed in Uber, now would it?

    All in all, the standard Ekiller set is really two distinct sets, Sword Dance + three attacks and Bulky Set-Up Sweeper with Recover. And along with Wallceus and Bandceus, Arceus-Normal is more versatile than people think it is.

    Relevant calc:
    252+ Atk Choice Band Kabutops Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Normal: 338-398 (76.64 - 90.24%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Ekiller is favored to win over it's check 75% of the time if Kabutop switch in on Sword Dance.

    252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Normal: 336-396 (76.19 - 89.79%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Has a very low chance to OHKO while taking massive damage in return.

    4 SpA Arceus-Ghost Focus Blast vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Normal: 174-206 (39.45 - 46.71%) -- 31.25% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    Not really a check.
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2013
  6. cfdu1202

    cfdu1202

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    First of all, Support =/= wall. A support mon is used to provide utility for your team, not to absorb powerful attacks. And here lies the ranking difference between the two Arceuses. Arceus-Ghost provides general utility to your team, being your spinblocker, checking things with will-O-wisp, holding the team together thanks to his useful resistances. How is Arceus-Normal supporting his team with his shitty typing, when you can use other Arceus forms? Setting up SR? There's only two advantages that Arceus-Normal has over his other forms, which are: 1) ability to hold an item 2)Stab on Extremespeed.

    When you use Arceus-Ghost, you don't have an opportunity cost. No pokemon can do better than what he does. Extremekiller has little opportunity cost, as he has a wonderful niche in a decently powerful priority STAB. Now, when you take Arceus-Ice (it's your example), you're better using Kyurem-W + another arceus form. So no, not every Arceus forms have an opportunity cost, your point is invalid.

    You're better using Overheat or Lum Berry on Arceus to mess up with his counters, even if it relies on Sun support or Spikes support. BandTrickArceus is kinda effective if the opponent is using Skarm/Giratina as Arceus's counter, but is highly ineffective against offensive teams that use pokemons such as Terrakion to deal with Arceus. Defensive Giratina-O, another counter to extremekilller, is immune to trick, same with Arceus-Fighting.

    And lol @ 120/120/120 defenses not bulky. If 252HP Arceus isn't sturdy, then I don't know what to say. Besides that some people uses Extremekiller's bulk, which consists of 88 Evs in HP (it's the standard set fyi), as an argument to raise him to S-Rank.

    Tell me one Calm Minder in Uber who can beat specially defensive Latias besides his brother Latios.
    What's your point telling me Arceus-Ghost is a shaky check to Lati@s? Even if your argument was correct it won't help the case of Arceus-Normal. There's a move called recover that Arceus-Ghost can use when he switches into Latios's Draco Meteor, since he outspeeds with 252+.
    Offensive Latias is always eved to avoid the 2HKO from Kyogre's Ice Beam. Otherwise use Latios.
    120 speed is very good, and anyone using Arceus should take advantage of his speed, even though some Arceus might put a few Evs into defenses, like Arceus-Grass, in order to avoid some important 2HKO. Remember in Gen4 when Lugia was eved to be faster than Garchomp? People did that to mitigate some damage by setting up reflect before, or to use roost before taking another attack. That's exactly the same thing, it's always better to cripple a pokemon with burn than having to take an attack before burning him. You can recover before taking an attack, or even Ko the opponent, which you could not have done if you had run less speed.
  7. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo SO TIRED of listening to your nonsense, you massive gasbag!
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    Actually, that isn't true. I'm not sure predictability was even brought up once during the Arc-N discussion. Here is a good post giving you an idea of what issues that discussion revolved around. I also strongly suggest you read pages 15-16 (maybe to 17 as well I can't remember where it ends) before commenting further on Arceus-Normal as I'm fairly certain whatever points you would like to raise have already been mentioned.
  8. Punchshroom

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    ...What are you talking about here? At no point did I suggest Jolly Arceus-N is even good, much less viable. Latias obviously doesn't fear burn, but Judgement will do a good number while Shadow Force can OHKO her. Don't know why you're talking about offensive Latias when no one else is, but it should be noted that even defensive Latias will run enough Speed to outrun things like Kyurem-W, Garchomp or Rayquaza so she doesn't get bowled over, so it is advised to just run Speed on Ghostceus to harass Lati@s, and appreciates the ability to burn, heal or attack before its opponents can fight back anyway. The argument that bulky Ghostceus beats Latios all the time is mitigated by the fact that support Ghostceus also does the same due to the speed advantage, able to switch into Draco Meteor and healing before the second one.

    I also took a look at your 252 HP/40 Def/160+ SpD/56 Spe...this gives you 293 Speed. I have no clue what you're aiming for here: it's too much for Adamant Rayquaza who only has 289 Speed, and is too slow for positive base 90s who have 309 Speed or neutral base 100s with 299 Speed.
  9. shrang

    shrang Go to your room
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    What's wrong with Jolly Ekiller? Personally, I think it's pretty much equally viable as all the other Ekiller sets. With Jolly, you're not revenge killed by CB Terrakion, not burned by stuff like Ghostceus and so on. You could say Lum also beats WoW toting Arceuses, but Lum Ekiller is a weak piece of shit that can't even OHKO Mewtwo. Sure, you've lost a bunch of bulk, but this all depends on your team for what they need. Sometimes Jolly Ekiller is more viable given the goals of the team.
  10. Haruno

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    You're giving up a shit ton of bulk and power to run jolly =/ probably the main reason for not recommending it considering the extra speed doesn't help for anything bar terrakion while most other things get cleanly ohko'd by a +2 muscle band espeed.
  11. effyouzion

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    Haven't checked this thread in like 10 pages, but it's nice to see we're still discussing ekiller's viability (I'm all for s-rank on arc normal btw).

    I like jolly ekiller w/ silk scarf on my offensive teams that use deoxys-s. Since I'm always going to have at least rocks (and usually a layer of spikes too), espeed still nets all the KOs I need. The loss of HP EVs isn't a big deal because, if you play it right, you shouldn't need your ekiller to take more than one hit when you set up. And since you're jolly, other ekillers can't revenge you, either, unless you're really low on health (<35%).

    I used lum berry on my ekiller back when we did the sleep suspect, but I haaaaaaated it. Arceus was made for silk scarf.
  12. Shaymin 492

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    Lum EKiller does well with hazards support, it can get the crucial KO's at +2 with SR and one layer of Spikes most of the time. Also, why is Kabutops the same rank as Shaymin-S? Shaymin-S is such a momentum killer, it gets outsped by every single scarfer (and Mewtwo). The Scarf set is a good revenge killer, but it's too weak and Modest Air Slash does like 30% to uninvested stuff in Ubers such as Scarf Palkia. Heck, even Modest Seed Fare can't OHKO 4/0 Kyogre most of the time. I think Kabutops should be moved to low A, most teams are rain, so normally Swift Swim will be active, and maybe move Skymin down to mid B.
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2013
  13. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo SO TIRED of listening to your nonsense, you massive gasbag!
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    Kabutops is a great mon but he also has a lot of problems with the mons you don't want him to struggle with. As a Swift Swimmer, being checked so easily by Groudon is disappointing while, as a Rapid Spin user, being counted by Giratina gets really frustrating. Good enough for high B but not quite low A.

    Skymin is still a really annoying offensive threat cause of flinching and spdef drops. It forces a lot of switches which makes the subseed set really good and it can even do cool stuff with Healing Wish. Yeah, it has it's problems but I don't think they are enough for it to drop.
  14. superstar

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    In the OU viability ranking thread, PK Gaming pointed out that C-rank mons are really the lowest that should be used in any sort of tournament or high-level play. This makes sense, since C-rank mons should naturally have niches for the best players, whereas D-rank mons are kinda things that you can mess around with on the ladder. So, I'd suggest that the following mons be dropped down to D-rank, in order of how good they are:

    -Bisharp: Impossible to set up with, can't ever switch in
    -Hydregion: Outclassed by the plethora of more powerful, bulkier, and in some cases faster Dragons in Ubers
    -Qwilfish: I know it theoretically has a use, but....
    -Jynx: It can switch into Kyogre I guess, but come on guys
  15. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo SO TIRED of listening to your nonsense, you massive gasbag!
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    I wouldn't say Bisharp is impossible to setup with. It's tricky trying to get it in AND setup but it's not that hard since it has that lovely steel typing. Really the thing that fucks it over the most is the prediction based on Sucker Punch and the WoW weakness. (plus the lack of utility etc.) I'm not sure about dropping it off to D rank.

    I haven't played with Hydreigon yet but a Head Smashing and U-Turning Scarf Dragon sounds kinda fun. (you aren't Ho-Oh fodder at least) I'll leave this to those who have tried it though. I know Faint used it in a research week so I'd like to hear what he has to say.

    I've really wanted to try Qwilfish at some point but can never find the reason because it's basically a suicide hazards lead that can't lead. Again, I'll leave this to others to add in their opinion.

    IDK Jynx looks fun with that speed and Lovely Kiss and shit. Only really works against rain teams though that's true. IIRC shrang was the one who wrote up the analysis for it so maybe he can add his input.
  16. Faint

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    Posting from my phone atm but I haved used Hydreigon in both a RW and regular ladder play, so I'll edit this post later talking about my results. I know I spoke about it in a few threads too, so maybe I can dig up those posts as well.
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  17. superstar

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    Didn't know it got Head Smash, and I forgot about U-turn! Seems pretty interesting I'll have to try it out. Bisharp is definitely the most borderline of these guys; I feel like it is less viable than most of the C-rank, but it is certainly a cut above of the D-rank
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2013
  18. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo SO TIRED of listening to your nonsense, you massive gasbag!
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    I added Keldeo to low C rank. Alos, I wanted to bring up a few possible changes for discussion.

    Dark Arceus rise to mid B rank: Although it may seem like this mon has become mediocre with Genesect everywhere, that's actually one of it's strengths in a way. With the rest EV spread, it becomes extremely effective at pressuring and wearing down Genesect which has come to be a lot of teams' main (and sometimes only) check to it. This makes cleaning up with a Mewtwo much easier. (who can also punish the Fight Arceus Darky lure out) The bulky Dark typing has quite a bit of uses for things like Ghost Arceus and Mewtwo which tend to plague offensive teams while at the same time being effective against Stall teams.

    Salamence drop to high C rank: Honestly, this thing is just way too fucking weak to do what you'd want it to do. It's not going to do jack against Stall and even Offense often has a bulky Arceus which'll screw it over. (on top of stuff like Genesect checking it) To show you what I mean check out these calcs,

    252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Ghost: 172-204 (38.73 - 45.94%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    +1 252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Ghost: 258-304 (58.1 - 68.46%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +1 252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 157-186 (55.47 - 65.72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    If you ever want to 2HKO a bulky Arceus switch in you need to have SR + Spikes up. Now this wouldn't be so bad if the second and third calcs didn't tell you that you have to wear down the bulky Arceus AND Gensect to about 58% before you can actually sweep. Again, this wouldn't be so bad if you could fling out that kinda of damage without locking yourself in. Sadly, Outrage doesn't work that way which means you either have to go for the sweep or click Dragon Claw. (which I'm not even going to bother showing calcs for as it's depressingly weak)
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  19. sammao

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    Adding to this list, I would like to suggest Gastrodon and Thundurus-T to D-rank. After Latias get her soul dew back since BW2, I see no reason to use Gastro anymore, even on sand team Latias performs better. And for Thundurus-T, it is too frail, SR weak, still does not hit hard enough, and most importantly, lack a purpose. I mean why would I want this when Thundurus-I and other stronger monsters (Dialga, Palkia, Zekrom etc) are available? I mean you can use these monsters if you want, but why would you ever want to? This seems like to fit the definition for D.
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  20. superstar

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    I agree with both of those; I also agree with Melee Mewtwo on his points about Arceus-Dark.

    Salamence has an excellent niche on physically oriented sun/weatherless HO as a cleaner (he's the star of my best BW2 team), but struggles to find a use beyond that, so high C is probably the best spot for him.
  21. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo SO TIRED of listening to your nonsense, you massive gasbag!
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    I only disagree with Gastrodon dropping because it can actually counter Lust Palkia unlike Latias which is important enough for it to maintain low C. (although it takes one dragon tail to fuck it)
  22. Nathaniel Br

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    Deoxys normal, if we're being honest, is low, not mid D rank. Totally outclassed in every measurable regard by either Deoxys attack or any number of dual screens users (Including Bronzong and the far better Deoxys S) it has virtually no niche except offering an offensive edge, which is not really enough to differentiate itself from the competition.
    Espeon for D rank. Somehow having an uber analysis it deserves no mention. One small mistake screws you over and it's out sped by almost every psychic type that rears it's head in ubers (Including the eaon twins) even the mildest mistake can screw it over due to it's mediocre special defence (especially by Ubers standards) and downright laughable defence.
    Abomasnow for low D. It can set hail which is always nice, and can beat some kyogre sets with the right investment. It's terrible I know, but still hail...
  23. Blue Jay

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    Espeon performed well enough in a very niche role. Hence the C- rank.

    With gen 6 Defog mechanics it pretty much loses its niche, but until the entire list is revamped for gen 6 it's fine where it is.

    I also don't see the point of nitpicking at placements within D rank. It's essentially a list of Pokemon you shouldn't use unless you're bored of everything that's good. Whether a Pokemon falls into "do not use" or "DO NOT USE" is pretty trivial.
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  24. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo SO TIRED of listening to your nonsense, you massive gasbag!
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    Yeah, now that I think about it, it'd probably be better to just remove the High, Mid, Low for D rank.

    Also, this thread is only for Gen 5. We'll have a different one when it's time for gen 6.
  25. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo SO TIRED of listening to your nonsense, you massive gasbag!
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    Alright, I removed the High, Mid, Low sub divisions for D rank because they are useless and misleading.

    Now, I want to propose that Abomasnow rises to Low C rank. Hail is a pretty useless weather and has nothing worht building around. However, Abomasnow is a decent Kyogre check and it's one that can also rob Excadrill and Swift Swimmers of their weather. That's a pretty significant niche (at least for a C/D rank mon) which is why I feel it deserves to be considered relevant.

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