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The Unspinnables (Peaked #1)

Discussion in 'BW Other Teams' started by alexwolf, Jul 28, 2012.

  1. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    The Unspinnables


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    Hello everyone! This is my second Uber RMT, which presents an offensive spike-stacking team with two spin-blockers. One day I was looking the analyses in Ubers c&c and my attention was immediately drawn by a Froslass set that Poppy had posted. It seemed very interesting so I decided to make a team based around it. I built a very draft team in 10 minutes, and to my utter surprise it was working! I tested and changed some stuff, and after a few days the team reached its final stage. This team has had great success, having peaked multiple times at the PO Ubers ladder (here is the current record), and I am pretty satisfied with it, but I believe it still can be improved and here is where I need your help. On to the team:
    (changes/additions in bold)​


    The Team in Details


    [​IMG]



    Froslass @ Focus Sash
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Trait: Cursed Body
    Nature: Timid
    - Spikes
    - Taunt
    - Icy Wind
    - Shadow Ball​

    The poke that this team was based around, Froslass, is quite rare in Ubers, but it has a very interesting niche. It is the only poke capable of spin-blocking the Spikes it sets-up, while also having her own Taunt to prevent set-up. So unlike Deoxys-S, Froslass doesn’t care at all if Forretress or Tentacruel leads, because they are simply set-up fodder, and the only things that prevent her from setting up at least one layer of Spikes are faster Taunts and Dark Void. It also beats one of the most popular hazard leads for offensive teams, Deoxys-S, with the combination of Icy Wind and Shadow Ball. By using Icy Wind the first turn, you can outspeed and ohko Deoxys-S the turn after with Shadow Ball, so if Deoxys-S had used Taunt, you prevent any set-up while still having your Focus Sash intact. If he used Stealth Rock, then you proceed to Taunt and then set-up 2-3 layers of Spikes. And finally, as if Froslass wasn’t good at her job, here comes the icing in the cake, Cursed Body. With this ability, Froslass is sometimes able to set-up on choiced mons that usually lead, especially Scarf Kyogre, which after having his Water Spout Disabled, must switch out, allowing me to get 2-3 layers of Spikes. As you can guess I lead with Froslass 99% of the times, so it is pretty much always my lead. All in all Froslass is good at what she does, and while if the opponent knows your moveset it becomes a bit trickier to use, it still never lets me down. The EV spread is very simple. Max SpA to 2hko Deoxys-S and generally dish out good damage, because Froslass can’t survive anything anyway, and max Speed to at worst speed tie with base 110s​

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    Groudon @ Life Orb
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 Atk (replaced 252 SpA) / 252 Spe
    Trait: Drought
    Nature: Jolly (replaced Adamant, which had replaced Naughty)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Punch (replaced Fire Blast)
    - Dragon Tail​

    The land titan is my second hazards setter, and a very good at that. Guess why... While Froslass prevented the hazards from being spun with her typing, Groudon does the same with his attacking prowess. Groudon usually comes in immediately after Froslass dies, and goes for SR if possible. This Groudon isn’t meant to last long or win weather wars, so I will sacrifice him if I see that setting up SR is a must in order for my attackers to sweep (eg when I see Lugia). Even with no HP and Def investment, he still tanks most physical hits pretty well, so I will try to keep him alive if I see a strong physical attacker that is problematic for my team (Scarf Zekrom and Scarf Kyurem-B). Earthquake is a standard STAB move, that ohkoes Tentacruel and Excadrill, which are outsped due to the max speed investment, and Fire Blast ohkoes Forretress, which will already have had his Sturdy broken because of Spikes, and Ferrothorn. Dragon Tail was chosen as the last move to prevent any Arceus and Latias from setting up on me, while also hitting Giratina-0 very hard and racking up damage to the opponent’s team with hazards. While using Naughty with max SpA investment and Fire Blast, when Fire Punch exists, may seem weird at the beginning, it has its perks. First and more importantly max SpA LO Fire Blast does 76.27 - 89.83% to 252 HP Gliscor, which is a huge threat to my team, meaning that if I am faster, Gliscor won’t be able to create a Sub against me, and if I am slower then I will still break his Subs. Fire Blast also 2hkoes most support Groudon, which greatly helps my Zekrom at sweeping late game. And finally it 1-2hkoes any Xatu regardless of Reflect, which is useful some times. Naughty was picked instead of Rash, because even with max SpA, Groudon’s Atk is still higher, and his main STAB uses its Atk. Max Speed to outspeed any spinner and tie with neutral 90s.
    Changed Groudon's set. Replaced Fire Blast with Fire Punch and maxed out Atk. Even with Fire Blast i wasn't faring that good against Gliscor, and a LO EQ already 3hkoes Groudon, so after eating a couple of EQs and hazard damage, it will be unable to wall my Zekrom.

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    [​IMG]


    Giratina-0 @ Griseous Orb
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Trait: Levitate
    Nature: Adamant
    - Substitute
    - Dragon Tail
    - Shadow Sneak
    - Earthquake​

    Giratina-0 completes the trio that makes spinning impossible for any team, while also abusing the hazards that have been set to the fullest. No spinner is getting past this Gira, as Sub blocks any attempts to Toxic stall her to death, and her subs can’t be broken from any spinner that commonly carries Toxic. After safely setting up as Sub on something it forced out, or against a poke that tried to status her, hell begins to break loose. With Max Atk, Griseous Orb and a positive nature, Dragon Tail deals good damage to many pokes, while also racking up hazards damage. Also due to the max Speed investment, Giratina-0 will ‘’out-phaze’’ any other phazer such as Groudon, Giratina and defensive Lugia, which means that stall teams will have a very hard time to stop her as they can’t status her, they can’t phase her, they can’t spin against her, and many of their pokes can’t break her Sub. Shadow Sneak is a very useful priority move to have, as Mewtwo, Deoxys-A, Latios and Latias would give troubles to this team without it. It also allows Giratina-0 to kill a poke while having a Sub up sometimes, which is nice (eg i take an Ice Beam from Scarf Ogre, then use Sub, and the next turn I ko with Shadow Sneak.) and you can never get enough priority users. Earthquake is the final move, and it is Giratina’s strongest option against most Steels, 1-2hkoing many of them, such as Excadrill and Heatran(ohkoed), and Dialga and Ttar (2hkoed). It also gives to Giratina-0 a way to hit Ferrothorn without taking Iron Barbs damage which is nice. Max Atk to hit hard, and max Speed to phase any other phazers before they do, outspeed Tentacruel before he Toxic’s her, and speed tie with neutral 90s.​

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    [​IMG]


    Palkia @ Haban Berry

    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Trait: Pressure
    Nature: Timid
    - Spacial Rend
    - Hydro Pump
    - Fire Blast
    - Dragon Tail​

    Which offensive team can do without Palkia? Almost none, thanks to the big fat whale, and my team is no exception. Palkia won a spot in my team due to her ability to switch into Scarf Kyogre and have awesome power, coverage and Speed. It also makes a good job at eliminating scarfed dragons, as with Haban Berry i am able to take a hit from all of them after SR (only Scarf Kyurem-B has a 6.25% chance to ohko Palkia after SR with Outrage), and OHKO back. This means that my Zekrom will have an easy time sweeping late-game without worrying about getting outsped. Spacial Rend is the main STAB move, which ohkoes most Dragons with the help of entry hazards, and can even 2hko defensive Dialga with SR and 2 spikes layers. Hydro Pump is Palkia’s strongest move in Rain and prevents most Arceus from setting up on me, while maiming anything that doesn’t resist it and isn’t Chansey/Blissey. It also 2hkoes any Ttar, which is invaluable, as keeping the sand off the field is a must if i don’t want to get swept by Excadrill. I can’t count the number of times that a Ttar switched into me, taking the Spacial Rend, only to be 2hkoed the next turn from Hydro Pump. Fire Blast allows me to 2hko Ferrothorn after SR + Spikes + Hydro Pump in the rain most of the times, and roast any steel type in Sun (so that Forretress can’t wall me in Sun, giving him no chance to even force me out). D-tail is there to prevent anything that could set-up on Palkia from doing so, and racks up hazards damage. It helps lot vs the Lati twins that think they can easily force me out and start CMing, and also racks up damage beautifully on the pink blobs. The ev spread is the standard for any Palkia.​

    --------------------​


    [​IMG]


    Arceus – Normal @ Life Orb
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Trait: Multitype
    Nature: Jolly
    - Swords Dance
    - Extremespeed
    - Shadow Claw
    - Brick Break​

    Yeah i use Extremekiller Arceus, no surprises right? How can you ignore one of the deadliest sweepers in Ubers, when building a spike-stacking offensive team? Arceus comes in to set-up whenever i know that it will sweep, or that he will weaken the opponent’s team enough for Zekrom to sweep. Even with no HP evs he takes hits like a boss, and the max Speed with the Jolly nature enable him to beat most Arceus that rely on WoW to check him, as in the case of a speed tie, i have the advantage, due to WoW’s imperfect accuracy. It also allows me to ohko most Extremekiller Arceus at +2 without risking taking an ES, as most are Adamant. Life Orb is used to get some crucial 1-2hkoes, such as on Ferrothorn, 252 HP Arceus, and Giratina-0, after hazards damage. Extremespeed and Shadow Claw don’t need any explanation really. I chose Brick Break instead of Earthquake to ohko Ferrothorn at +2 and OHKO any offensive Normal Arceus after SR + Spikes at +2 (if i can take 1 Extremespeed of ‘course). The best sweeper in Ubers works wonders with Spikes, and he is often the mvp of the team, as expected, but when he doesn’t manage to sweep clean the guy below comes into play.​

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    [​IMG]

    Zekrom @ Choice Scarf
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Trait: Terravolt
    Nature: Adamant
    - Bolt Strike
    - Outrage
    - Sleep Talk​

    I wanted a physical Scarfer to revenge kill threats such as Mewtwo, Lati@s, CM Arceus, CM Manaphy and CM Kyogre, while also being able to check SD NormalCeus, and who else is better suited for this job? Scarf Zekrom hits the Uber meta where it hurts the most (physical side), while also outspeeding anything without a Scarf and packs 2 wonderful STABs with crazy BP and nearly unresisted coverage. Usually the only things that can stop a Zekrom sweep after a bit of shuffling with entry hazards, are Groudon, Ferrothorn, Excadrill and opposing Scarfers. Groudon is taken care of my own Groudon, or weakened by Arceus, Ferrothorn is beaten or worn down by Palkia and Arceus, most Scarfers are beaten by Palkia so that leaves us with Excadrill and scarfers that can ohko Palkia. Excadrill is not such a big deal, because opposing Sand teams are not so hard to play against, as Ttar can’t come into anything on my team, and if it does, it can only do it once, due to entry hazards. Now against scarf Terrakion and any scarfer that managed to kill my Palkia, the game plan is to weaken them enough with entry hazards (D-Tail spam) so that Arceus can ohko them at +2. If I fail to do this, then Zekrom can take 1 hit from some scarfers, such as Terrakion and Mewtwo, and ohko back, but will fail against any other scarfed dragons. Adamant nature is used, because I don’t plan in outspeeding any other scarfer anyway, and the power boost is simply amazing. Bolt Strike and Outrage are both strong STAB moves, and usually Zekrom sweeps with one of them, and Sleep Talk is for Darkrai, which would royally screw me otherwise. I don't run a 4th move, such as Dragon Claw or Volt-Switch, because i don't want Sleep Talk to chose shitty moves against Darkrai. With only Bolt Strike and Outrage, Darkrai is almost guaranteed to get OHKOed by Zekrom, as Bolt Strike clearly ohkoes, and Outrage OHKOes 56.25% of the time. It's not like i miss Volt Switch or Dragon Claw though, as 95% of the time, Zekrom will come in only in late game, where both moves are useless, and if it comes in early, 95% of the time, it will be to take on Darkrai.


    Biggest threats to the team

    As with every team, this team also has flaws. My team in general despises Scarfers that can outspeed Zekrom (all) and survive a +2 ES from Arceus, such as Dialga and Terrakion. If i face a team with one of them, i have to make sure that i will shuffle the opponent's team enough, so that their Scarfer will have taken enough damage to be ohkoed from a +2 ES, or to keep Palkia healthy enough to survive a Draco Meteor from Dialga and cripple back with Spacial Rend, so that later Arceus can ohko. Darkrai also can be problematic, as it is the only poke that Froslass hates to lead against, which means that i will have to go to Zekrom to take the Dark Void. If the opponent goes for Sub instead of Dark Void, i am in for some serious pain though. Finally physically defensive Arceus-Fighting 6-0s this team.​

    So anyway this was the team, i would love some helpful comments, as i believe that the team still has room for improvement, and i am not the most experienced Uber player, so i may miss something. Oh and two things before this RMT ends. First of all half of my team was Poppy's idea, as the Froslass-Groudon-Giratina-0 trio are all sets posted by him. And second this team has lost twice to Princess Bri, because i was drunk :D.​

    Importable (open)
    Groudon @ Life Orb
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Punch
    - Dragon Tail
    - Stealth Rock


    Froslass (F) @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Cursed Body
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Spikes
    - Taunt
    - Shadow Ball
    - Icy Wind


    Giratina-O @ Griseous Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Substitute
    - Dragon Tail
    - Shadow Sneak
    - Earthquake


    Zekrom @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Teravolt
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Bolt Strike
    - Outrage
    - Dragon Claw
    - Sleep Talk


    Arceus @ Life Orb
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Swords Dance
    - ExtremeSpeed
    - Shadow Claw
    - Brick Break


    Palkia @ Haban Berry
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Spacial Rend
    - Hydro Pump
    - Fire Blast
    - Dragon Tail

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
  2. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    Btw i would appreciate it if someone could show me some pics of Gira-0 and Zekrom without the white background, so they can be the same as the others.
  3. Stone RG

    Stone RG Megas are broke

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    I must say the team is very balanced, though your half your team is quite unorthodox. However every team has weakness, i see offensive variants of Dialga being extremely threatening, especially Specs, since it clean OHKOs everything in your team (though i havent run the damage calc with Arceus, im pretty sure it cant take a Specs Draco to the face after SR, neither does Palkia even with Haban). A good player wont doubt at switching after killing something with Draco Meteor. I would highly reccomend you switching your Palkia's item to Expert Belt or Life Orb, and taking Dragon Tail for Aura Sphere, take a look at this calcs:

    252 SpAtk Expert Belt Palkia Aura Sphere vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Dialga: 64.6% - 76.49% (2 hits to KO)
    252 SpAtk Life Orb Palkia Aura Sphere vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Dialga: 70.3% - 82.67% (2 hits to KO)

    Palkia has very good type coverage adding Aura Sphere, which means Expert Belt can lure a lot of its counters after they think you're choiced into a move (similar to the function of the Haban Berry, but more offensive). Life Orb essentially makes you hit much harder, but you lose the surprise factor as well as the ability to lure certain pokemon.
    As i see your team is semi-stall (or thats how i saw it), so in this case Dialgacan be easily taken out after 1 or 2 switches due to spikes and SR damage.

    Hope i helped.
  4. Feel the Aura

    Feel the Aura

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    Nice team alexwolf.
    However, I have to ask- have you tried Kyurem-B (Scarf) in place of Zekrom? I has more Firepower and bulk, and, more importantly, a speed stat of 95, which allows it to outspeed scarf Dialga, Kyogre, etc etc. I recommend:

    Kyurem-B @ Choice Scarf
    Jolly/Adamant (Jolly prefered, it still has more power than adamant Zekrom)
    252atk/4filler/252spe

    Outrage
    Fusion Bolt
    D-Claw/D-meteor
    Ice Beam

    Ice beam still hits hard even with a hindering nature, and the other moves are pretty self-explanatory. Nature is really your preference. Good luck!
  5. locoghoul

    locoghoul

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    I remember playing against this team. That lead Froslass was boss. Don't have many suggestions but a Sub Ho-Oh could give you trouble as it kinda walls Gira-O and Groudon's Dtail. Also beware of SS Cloyster (if it shows up).
  6. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    Thx for the input guys!

    @Stone RG

    My team is not semi-stall it is spike stacking offense, how could you miss that? :D

    Anyway Specs Dialga is not problematic as it is outsped or at worst tied by any mon in my team (most Specs Dialga hardly run any Speed evs, and i have never seen a max Speed Timid one) and hit very hard from all of them. At worst it will kill one poke, but i am totally fine with this. If it killed Palkia with DM, then in the next turn i will be able to set-up with Arceus (-2 DM does 46.59 - 55.23%) and if it hits me with D-Pulse then Palkia will survive and 2hko with Spacial Rend after hazards damage.

    And anyway i can't remove Haban Berry, as it helps me lure and eliminate problematic Scarfers, but thx for your thoughts anyway!

    @Feel the Aura

    Yeah i have though of any physical Scarfer in place of Zekrom, including Kyurem-B (it's not like there are many). If it had a great secondary STAB, then i would consider it, but as of now, no. It's only really powerful move locks you, and things such as CM Ogre, CM Manaphy and Lugia will be much more problematic for my team. It also is weak to SR, which means that it is actually a worse check to SD Arceus, as it is 2hkoed at +2, and cannot survive a hit from Scarf Terrakion, which as mentioned again, is somewhat problematic.

    @Locoghoul

    Nah Sub Ho-Oh doesn't really wall anything in my team (to be fair, when you posted this i had max SpA on Groudon, but still D-Tail could break it's Sub most of the times), as Groudon's and Giratina-0's D-tails always break the Sub. Cloyster can only threaten Giratina-0 in my team and is quite rare so i have had no problems with it.

    I was talking with some Uber players on IRC yesterday and someone proposed to me (Jibaku i think) to use SR Mamo instead of Groudon, which seemed as a very good idea. But from the first battle i had with him i realized one huge reason that Groudon is irreplaceable, and that is handling Sand teams, which destroy me without Groudon.

    Keep the rates coming guys!
  7. Jibaku

    Jibaku Not taking FS requests atm.
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    That was firecape ._.

    Anyways as much as I'm tempted to point out the rather big number of weaknesses here I can't really find a suitable replacement anywhere in your team without really changing quite a bit.

    But since I'm a mean person anyways I'll just list the stuff:
    - Fighting Arceus
    - Ground Arceus
    - Ghost Arceus (esp those bulky Will-o-Wisp versions)
    - Dark Arceus
    - Scarf Dialga/Palkia/Kyurem-W/Zekrom (mostly Scarf Dialga)
    - Ho-Oh kinda, depending on how well you play around it with Zekrom and Dragon Tails

    Covering most of these would require 2+ members since taking a spot for a steel type wouldn't cover up Fighting/Groundceus/Ho-Oh.

    But covering issues aside, I think a problem in your team is that there's a lot of offense and sacking going on but not enough speed to revenge and maintain momentum. Something like Mewtwo would fix this problem (along with Fighting arceus and to an extent ground arceus) but where he would go might be a bit problematic
  8. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    @Jibaku

    Allmost all of the pokes that you have listed are indeed somewhat problematic. Let me adress them one by one.

    Physically Defensive Fighting Arceus is maybe the biggest threat to the team (the only Fighting Arceus that i have encountered thus far). It takes around ~40% from Zekrom's Bolt Strike and can revenge kill my Arceus as even a +2 ES doesn't ohko (even with SR + 3 layers of Spikes). So it can procceed to CM to its heart's content 'till he is able to sweep me, and all my D-Tail users are dead. I could put Toxic somewhere to have a chance against him, but he is rare as fuck (most people use Max HP/Max Speed no?), so i won't bother.

    Any other CM Arceus can be forced out by my D-Tail users (Groudon, Palkia, Giratina-0), so when it comes in the next time, it will be in ko range for my +2 Arceus (most of the times i win vs Ghost-Arceus, as we speed tie, and i have a bigger chance to win, thanks to the imperfect accuracy of WoW/FB) or for my Zekrom, which does ~55% to max HP Arceus with Bolt Strike.

    About the Scarfers now. Scarf Palkia is not troubling at all, as my own Palkia can take a hit if it is healthy, and then OHKO back. Even if it dies, Arceus can set-up on either Spacial Rend or -2 DM. Scarf Kyurem-W is in the same boat, except that it is stronger, but Palkia can still survive a DP at 75% health or above, iirc, and ohko back, and if it goes for DM, then i set-up with Arceus after Palkia dies.

    Scarf Dialga and Zekrom are probleamtic though, as they can severely hurt everything in my team and/or revenge kill Arceus. When i see Zekrom, i have to make suer that i keep my own Groudon at 60% health or more, to be able to take an Outrage and OHKO back. My own Palkia can take even an Outrage after SR and OHKO back, but every bit of previous damage means that it will die. And the problem is that i can't set-up with my own Arceus, as Outrage does a lot to 4 HP Arceus, which usually prevents me from sweeping with him, as LO will kill me after 2-3 turns. Scarf Dialga has to be played in a similar manner. Either bait her to revenge kill your healthy Palkia, and do back 50% with your Spacial Rend, so that Arceus will be able to OHKO later, or shuffle like crazy, so that entry hazards take their toll.

    Of 'course if any of those Scarfers comes in against Giratina-0 or Groudon, one of them is going to die, but i don't mind sacing them, if it helps me win the game. Remember this is an offensive team.

    Finally Ho-Oh is not a problem at all, as everything in my team can break it's Sub, so it can't set-up anywhere, so at best it will kill one of my pokes.


    I also made my Groudon Jolly, to outspeed any and all Excadrills, and at worst tie with any base 90 pokes. Outspeeding most unscarfed Dialga and Kyogre is priceless.
  9. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    Why use a bulky Arceus and get destroyed by any WoW 252 Speed Arceus, or Steel types, when you can easily sweep with the offensive one. I might be missing something, so if i am, please elaborate.

    You suggest me to use a CM Arceus or mono Rock Arceus. Again pls elaborate, what kind of Arceus and why, and in the case of Rock-Arceus, again why.

    I don't like Outrage, as after i am locked many things can set-up on me, and i can't afford this. Shadow Sneak is really great for Mewtwo, Deoxys-A and Lati@s. You say Zekrom deals well with Mewtwo, but this is not true, as every time Mewtwo comes in, i would have to sac one mon, to bring in Zekrom safely, while with Shadow Sneak, i can revenge kill Mewtwo with 52% life or less (many Mewtwo lead against Froslass, so they most likely will be in ko range of SS in late game).

    As you said i can't put Mewtwo + Ghost Arceus as i don't want to replace Gira-0.

    Something to note guys is, that only three members of the team are really irreplaceable, and this is the Poppy trio (Froslass - Groudon - Gira-0). Everything else can be changed if given good enough reasons, so i am all ears if you have an idea for a better sweeping combo than SD Arceus and Scarf Zekrom.
  10. TrollFreak

    TrollFreak (╮°-°)╮┳━┳ (╯°□°)╯ ┻━┻
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    As requested, here's my rate Alex :) Ofc, you had alot of sucess as is, so you don't need to take any of these suggestions.

    On Groundon, if you're going to use Max Attack and Speed, just use Adamant, as you don't need to max on Speed when using Jolly. However, if you do want to run Jolly, a spread of 96 HP / 252 Atk / 160 Spd works, as you outpace neutral natured base 90s without losing significant bulk. For Giratina-O, while Poppy's suggestion of Outrage works wonders, imo, Will-O-Wisp > Shadow Sneak with a spread of 164 HP / 188 Atk / 72 Def / 84 Spd will work better, as you can cripple Pokemon such as SD Arceus, which can be a threat since you don't have a physical tank / D-Bond on Frosslass, and with that spread, you can survive a SD Arceus's Shadow Claw and either burn it or phaze it out. Also, with that spread, you can make 4 Subs, and you have enough Speed to outpace Tentacruel, Dialga, and Mold Breaker Exca so you can hit them with EQ. Finally, using a Choice Scarf on Palkia with Thunder > Dragon Tail and a spread of 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd works much better, as it gives your team a revenge killer than can revenge kill things that Zekrom can't(faster dragons, for example). This also gives you a way to deal with Manaphy in the rain, which can be troublesome. The spread means you take less damage from entry hazards, so thats always nice.

    From there, I start changing members. Jibaku brought up some great points, and there is a Pokemon that can deal with most of those threats, Stallbreaker Heatran > Zekrom works wonders here, since you would have a Choice Scarfed Palkia + Zekrom is so slow for a scarfer in the current meta, plus Heatran gives you a Dragon resist that can deal with Dialga w/o Earth Power + Aura Sphere(which is rare on Dialga), makes a great Kyurem-White/Palkia switch in(Palkia in Sun, as Surf won't 2HKO), Ho-Oh without EQ, Giratina-O without EQ, Arceus-Ghost w/o Focus Blast or Brick Break, Arceus-Dark, as well as loving Sun from Groundon. It can also help break down Skarmory + Ferrothorn, taking pressure of of Groundon to handle those Pokemon. Plus, with Roar, you can help spread around entry hazard damage, which is helpful since this is SpikeStacking offense. From there, you could use something with Speed to keep up the pressure, so Mewtwo > Arceus works, as it deals with Arceus-Fighting and Mewtwo packs the offensive pressure that both Poppy and Jibaku suggested, as well as better coverage than Arceus. Now of course, losing Arceus is hard, especially with SpikeStacking offense, but since 2 people have suggested it that have much more experience than me, try it out.

    So, in summary:

    Adamant > Jolly on Groundon OR New EV Spread w/ Jolly (open)

    Pros: Much more power without losing out to anything significant OR gaining more bulk with Jolly while outpacing neutral base 90s such as Reshiram and Zekrom and Mixed Rayquaza

    Cons: Adamant means you speed tie with other neutral base 90s OR Jolly means you lose to faster positive speed base 90s, though most are neutral natured, so it shouldn't be too big a change.


    Will-O-Wisp > Shadow Sneak + New Spread on Giratina-O (open)

    Pros: Will-O-Wisp cripples physical attackers such as SD Arceus and Terrakion, New EV Spread means much more bulk while being able to take a +2 Arceus's Shadow Claw, allowing you to burn it or phaze it out

    Cons: Losing Shadow Sneak to check Mewtwo and losing power + speed on Giratina, though you still hit hard with that spread as well as still outpacing Pokemon such as Dialga and other slower base 90s


    Choice Scarf + Thunder + New EV Spread on Palkia (open)

    Pros: Revenge Killer, takes care of Pokemon such as Rayquaza, Kyurem-W, and other Pokemon Zekrom can't, Thunder smashes Kyorge + Manaphy in rain, New EV Spread = less damage from hazards

    Cons: Losing Haban Berry, which does make it tank attacks from Dragons, though with a Scarf you'll be killing them anyways + losing Dragon Tail to scout switch ins + spread damage


    Heatran > Zekrom (open)

    Pros: Dragon-resist, Fire-immune, Dark-resist(huge for Darkrai) handles Pokemon such as Dialga, Ho-Oh, Arceus-Dark and others easily unless they run Earth Power or EQ, so its always best to scout for those first before trusting Heatran, Toxic to break down Pokemon such as Lugia and Kyorge switch ins, Roar to spread damage

    Cons: Losing a reliable check to Mewtwo + losing a Darkrai check, though Heatran can beat Mewtwo w/o Aura Sphere + Dakrai w/o Focus Blast, and if they do have those moves, thanks to SpD investment, Heatran can take an attack(Aura Sphere nor Focus Blast OHKO) and phaze them out


    Mewtwo > Arceus (open)

    Pros: More Speed + Better Coverage than Arceus, racks up the offensive pressure, which is great with the Spikes + Rocks your team will have up

    Cons: Losing a late game cleaner which can devestate teams with Powerful ESpeeds, though Mewtwo is also a late game cleaner, and it helps majorly with the Arceus-Fighting problem, so give it a shot


    Sets (open)

    [​IMG]
    Heatran (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 248 HP / 152 SDef / 108 Spd
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Taunt
    - Toxic
    - Roar
    - Flamethrower

    [​IMG]
    Mewtwo @ Life Orb
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Psystrike
    - Fire Blast
    - Aura Sphere / Shadow Ball
    - Substitute / Shadow Ball / Calm Mind


    Good Job on getting #1, hope my rate helps!
  11. shrang

    shrang Defend the Headquarters of Revolution
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    Your team looks pretty weak to Dragons in general, since you don't have any Steels or really bulky Pokemon outside Arceus (which haven't got any investment on it). Something like Scarf Palkia/Reshiram/Zekrom/Salamence all look extremely threatening. Your checks to them are pretty damn shaky. Salamence can be especially painful if it revenges Zekrom locked into Outrage, since it can just snowball your ass. You do have priority, I guess, but you can imagine if someone starts spamming two or more dragons (which isn't rare at all), you're going to be in a pretty bad shape. Unfortunately, there isn't much of a fix for this unless you want to be like me and use Bisharp (lol) except smart play, but since you're good enough to get to #1, you could probably do that anyway.

    Anyway, congrats on #1, good team and good luck.
  12. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    TrollFreak and shrang thx for the rates, will talk about them later.

    Anyway guys tomorrow i am leaving for holidays, so i will maybe be unable to answer to your rates for the next 6 days. But pls keep the rates coming, and be sure that i will see them when i get back!
  13. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    @TrollFreak

    Wow man your suggestions were awesome! I tested the team with bulky Gira-0 + Mewtwo + Scarf Palkia + Heatran and the team was pretty good and enjoying to play! Heatran is a boss in sun!

    Now more detailed...

    I won't change the evs on Groudon for 2 reasons. First of all, at worst tying with other base 90s is worth it, as well as outspeeding Jolly Excadrill (as rare as this may be). I can also outspeed some pokes that aim for the same benchmark as you mentioned (outspeed max speed neutral 90s) such as Modest Kyurem-W, etc. Finally i don't think that the extra bulk really helps as LO really takes its toll on Groudon.

    About your spread and move change on Gira-0. In the team i have right now, taking a +2 Shadow Claw from EKiller Arceus is not needed at all, as it finds zero room to set-up. I also don't need WoW, as any Arceys can simply be phazed, and same for Terrakion, which will die from a +2 ES after it gets hit with D-Tail and hazards. Also SS is very useful for Lati@s, Deoxys-A and Mewtwo, which would be a bit problematic otherwise.

    But in the team with Mewtwo + Heatran, your spread (and WoW) is better, as SD Normal Arceus can find set-up oportunites against Heatran and choice locked Palkia, so having a good check for him is good. I also don't care about most Lati@s and Mewtwo, as Heatran walls them (Deo-A still a bitch though)!

    Now for your other 3 moveset/pokemon changes. They are all very good, and they work together exceptionally good. Mewto is a superb cleaner (i tried both CM and 4 attacks, and i prefer the latter actually), Heatran is a boss in Sun, and walls so many threats, and Palkia is a faster but weaker version of Scarf Zekrom, which means that i had also some mini-sweeps with it. The only problem with this core though, is that Normal SD Arceus finds more set-up opportunities (against Heatran, and Palkia), so if Gira-0 is a bit weakened it can sweep, so i have to be careful. In general more pokes can find room to set-up against your team, as it is more balanced, and thus gives more room for set-up. I also can't just sac pokes and call it a day, as i did with my team, as many of them hold the team together.

    But anyway the team with your changes is very good and very fun to use, so i am thinking of splitting the RMT to 2 teams, one spike stacking HO, and the other spike stacking bulky offense (not balance as everything except Heatran is offensive, but not pure offense either because of Heatran), as the 2 teams play very different.

    Oh and i put the 4 evs of Palkia on Def, thx for noticing!

    @shrang


    Yeah everything you said is right, i just have to be careful, and manage to set-up before their dragons overwhelm me. Thx for the rate!

    @Poppy


    I will try it over NormalCeus and see how it goes, thx for the help!
  14. TheStarRapper

    TheStarRapper

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    Having used Choice Scarf Zekrom in the past, I found that one of the best moves to have on him was Volt Switch, an invaluable tool for seizing momentum should Ferrothorn switch in (no iron barbs hurray), or you are unsure Kyogre will switch out but want to rack up damage, or just want the amazing benefits of such a scouting move. However, should Groudon switch in, Zekrom just stands there looking like a big bitch. Anyway, if you were going to change it for something I would replace either Outrage or Dragon Claw, whichever move you use less. There's pro's and cons to the whole "trading" moves thing, but the momentum-seizing thing is always fun against heavier stall teams.

    TL:DR:
    Show Hide
    Holy damn it was like one paragraph, TL: Read it Again for fun


    TL:DR Part Two
    Show Hide
    Volt Switch [​IMG] GIFSoup
    It's pretty late if you're wondering why im acting a fool. I liked your team by the way, have a good day.
  15. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    @StarRapper

    I know the benefits of running VS, as i have used it a lot in the past, but D-Claw has proved to be much more valuable for me. As most of Zekrom's switch-ins are very obvious, such as Ferro, Groudon and Excadrill, i can always double switch to the appropriate mon, instead of having the luxury to get that little damage off, and keep a dragon move that doesn't lock me for when i need to. And Zekrom's #1 switch-in, Groudon, along with Excadrill, are anyway immune to VS.
  16. PROBLEMS

    PROBLEMS

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    Great team Alex, faced it a couple of times on ladder and you really have to concentrate when playing it as its very well put together.. Love the Haban Berry Palkia might use that in the future

    P.S. 'Current' Hmmm ;p
  17. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    Thx man, but damn you for stealling the spotlight :D
  18. Stone RG

    Stone RG Megas are broke

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    lol man i was bored and wanted to se some Ubers team and then i noticed your team was still on the first page, whatever, but now i saw another threat to your team (that you probably have under control but im gonna tell you anyways). Arceus-Ghost, all 3 variants of are extremely dangerous to your team: if the Calm Mind/Swords Dance variants nabs a boost it all goes down to hell from there, unless you can work around it with your own Arceus and Zekrom.

    The support set seems like a bitch to take on to your team, considering it can cripple half your team with Will-O-Wisp, shuffle stall you (in case your opponent has hazards obviously). Now, i would really reccomend you to switch Fire Punch on Groudon for Thunder Wave, since you have a good Ferro and Forry lure in Palkia. Also, your Arceus can go for the Lum Berry so its not too susceptible to burns.

    Again, hope i helped :]
  19. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    Arceus-Ghost is somewhat troubling, but nothing that can't be handled. Support GhostCeus gets phazed out by Groudon and Palkia, which means that the next time he comes in, he will have less than 50% of it's life (assuming i have SR + Spikes up, which happens most of the times), so my Arceus or my Zekrom will be able to finish it off. Also Lum Berry is not so needed on my own Arceus because we speed tie with opposing GhostCeus, which means that i have an 62.5% or 65% chance to win against it (factoring in WoW and FBs accuracy), which is ok for me. SD GhostCeus again gets phazed by everything, and will be most probably weakened enough at late game for my own Arceus Normal or Zekrom to get past it. CM GhostCeus is the most problematic, but again anything can phaze it, leaving it weakened enough for my 2 sweepers to clean.

    T-Wave on Groudon would be helpful, but losing Fire Punch is unacceptable. Without Fire Punch, Groudon is much easier to wall with pokes such as Skarmory, i can't ohko Ferrothorn and Forretress and i can't ohko Balloon Excadrill (this is huge) and i cant 2hko Xatu (which is huge too). So as much as i would love to fit T-Wave in, i simply can't.

    Thx for the suggestions anyway!
  20. puregenius

    puregenius

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    by far one of my favourite teams and poppy is a genius for coming up with that froslass

    anyway i think a max hp and atk arceus would be better for this team with recover/sd/espeed/shadow claw
    ur not going to lose offensive power, but u gain the ability to sponge some hits
  21. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    Thx for the good words and for the rate! However i can't use max HP and Recover on Arceus. Without max Speed and Jolly, i lose to Arceus-Ghost and any 252 Timid Arceus that carries WoW. Without Brick Break i lose to Dialga with Roar / D-Tail, Ferrothorn, Tyranitar, Excadrill and many more. I need the coverage in order to sweep.

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