The UU Theorymon Project (Sand Stream Diancie + New Slate)

G-Luke

We Eat Losers
is a Pre-Contributor
#1
Approved by: Hogg, King UU, Hikari, Ark

Thread OP stolen from Recreant
Cohosted by Killintime and Eyan


Banner gracefully designed by Hogg
Welcome to the Gen 7 UU Theorymon Project, led by G-Luke and the council. Here, every few days, we will be discussing a list of 3-5 Pokemon, all of which have any one or a combination of an additional move /ability / typing that they didn’t originally have. After all the options on the list have been sufficiently discussed, a community vote will commence, determining the most popular one. Every Pokemon that wins the community vote will be recorded in the archive.

How will this list of Pokemon be created each time? The council will be accepting ideas from the community and may also put some of our own ideas into a relatively small slate (around 4 Pokemon) each time. All submissions will be sent to the council, via PM.

Here are the active council members. The council helps lead discussion and will accept theorymons, and are a figure of authority here.

G-Luke
Eyan
Killintime

Submission Guidelines
When submitting theorymon for the thread, here are a couple guildlines as to how it should be done
  • Submissions should of course, be balanced for the UU Metagame. So the Brave Bird Aerodactyls and the Electric Surge <insert strong Electric type> shouldnt be cropping up the pms.
  • Submissions should also be able to contribute positives to the UU Metagame, and doesn't have to be about mindless buffs.
  • While flavour is important for Pokémon, submissions should be done on a competitive standpoint, and shouldnt be to fulfill some long lost fanservice request.
  • In a similar vein, do not be afraid to make submissions that significantly alter how a mon functions in standard, as UU Theorymon is all about exploring new, unexplored niches in the metagame with "formatted" Pokémon.
  • Creativity is key. Council members are much more likely to approve creative submissions than some boring Adaptability or Huge Power slap ons (generally not excepted unless can be clearly argued its managable.)
Here is an example of a good submission and a bad one.


+ Adaptibility
I believe Adaptability will make Sneasel a powerful threat in the metagame with a hardhitting Knock Off and a great tool in Ice Shard for revengekilling. Its high speed and great power would make for an excellent Pursuit trapper, but it wouldn't be broken due to a very poor defensive typing and paper thin bulk, especially with threats like Scizor that easily beat it 1v1.

Sneasel @ Dread Plate / Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Ability: Adaptability
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Icicle Crash
- Ice Shard
- Pursuit / Low Kick


Here is a bad example

I think Sawk should get Huge Power cuz then it hits reaallly hard and its cooool and awesome and cuz Sawk is my faaaaaave.


+ Adaptability

+ Sand Stream


The most important thing however, is to have FUUUUN!! So join the discussion, submit some fun Theorymon and let's have a good time

Current Cycle:
+ Gunk Shot (Credit to Hogg)

+ Fluffy (Credit to Magma)

+ Roost

+ Ghost/Electric and Volt Switch
 
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#4
+ Iron Tail and Head Smash

This addition will enhance Doublade's ability to be a bulky SD sweeper. Its ability, No Guard, will allow it to use Iron Tail and Head Smash to their full potential, since their substantial chances to miss will be ignored.

Iron Tail will provide a significant power boost compared to Iron Head and also a significant chance to lower the enemy's defense, which will help it to break a few things it normally couldn't, and also will also guarantee it several OHKOs that Iron Head normally needs a roll for, though most of these situations are versus mons which would normally force Doublade out. However, it still would be a nice addition to Doublade's arsenal.

Head smash, on the other hand, may not prove to be worth it on all swords dance sets, since it would need to forgo Sacred Sword or Shadow Sneak in order to use it, which means it would no longer be able to hit Bisharp or bulky steel types. In addition, the 50% recoil of Head Smash may prove to be extremely detrimental to Doublade's longevity, so it would need to be used only when absolutely necessary. However, this option would help it break certain threats on a predicted switch, mainly bulky fire types like Volcanion and defensive Talonflame. It is also notable that Head Smash also hits Scizor significantly harder than any of Doublade's other common moves.
 

Roseguardin

formerly skywardsword596
#5
Zoroark with Dark/Poison and Poison Jab


Updated with calcs

Could be an interesting option for Illusion shenanigans, particularly if its disguise is a Pokemon like Gengar, which shares the ability to remove Toxic Spikes and immunity to Toxic. Zoroark could potentially act as a lure to Gengar switch-ins like Bisharp and Krookodile (catching them with LO Flamethrower/Focus Blast/Low Kick depending on the set) or maintain momentum with U-turn as these Pokemon come in. Avoiding Toxic damage will also be a useful boon although if Zoroark switches into Toxic or Toxic Spikes while disguised as a Pokemon that can't naturally remove these, it will be quite a giveaway. The Poison-typing also gives it a resistance to Mach Punch, which lets it survive:
252 Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zoroark: 153-180 (58.6 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Poison typing, it's an OHKO without it)

252+ Atk Choice Band Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zoroark: 172-204 (65.9 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Poison Typing, almost certainly an OHKO and without a boost Zoroark isn't touching shit).

0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zoroark: 147-174 (56.3 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Pure Dark Zoro gets OHKOed)

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zoroark: 151-178 (57.8 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (same move is an OHKO on regular Zoro)


STAB on Poison Jab also makes a Swords Dance set a little more viable, with a set of SD/Knock Off/Poison Jab and either Sucker Punch or Low Kick in the last slot. I'll post more calcs with the KOs Zoroark can net with the added STAB later.

UnSTAB Calcs (not a huge Zoroark user so I just maxed Attack and gave it LO and a Jolly nature)

252 Atk Life Orb Zoroark Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 174-205 (44.1 - 52%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Zoroark Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Primarina: 250-296 (83 - 98.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Zoroark Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 108-127 (33.4 - 39.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (seriously, an 80 BP neutral attack off of 105 Attack isn't pretty, even with the poison chance)

252 Atk Life Orb Zoroark Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 108-127 (33.2 - 39%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Zoroark Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Amoonguss: 192-227 (44.5 - 52.6%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery (using SD) (Knock Off is the stronger option, btw)

And the same mons with an added STAB on Poison Jab...

252 Atk Life Orb Zoroark Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 260-307 (65.9 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Zoroark Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Primarina: 374-445 (124.2 - 147.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Zoroark Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 161-191 (49.8 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Zoroark Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 161-191 (49.5 - 58.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Zoroark Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Amoonguss: 144-172 (33.4 - 39.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery


Obviously, things are not all roses even with the added power to P-Jab. Zoroark is still massive Scizor bait, especially now that it can come in for free on Jab. Cobalion also laughs at it. Purely physical Zoroark also becomes even more vulnerable to Ground-types like Gliscor, Hippowdon, and Krookodile, who can eat anything it throws at it. Nevertheless, Dark/Poison is a definite upgrade on pure Dark on Zoroark, and with its unique ability and the right partners, it can be a nasty surprise.

EDIT: I actually have never used Zoroark too much and had no idea it got Sludge Bomb at all, but Cynde covered everything I could think of and more with special set so yeah read his post



Sorry this is so rough, I just saw this post and wanted to add something.
 
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Cynde

winter ♥
is an official Team Rateris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
#6
i'll give my thoughts on the slate

: Not too sold on this one honestly. I mean it's cool and shit that you now have a stronger Steel-type attack which is great and all but it doesn't really do /much/ of significance other than like, 2HKO Hippowdon after a Swords Dance and it has a decent enough chance to OHKO Gliscor after some chip (at +2). I haven't really found any signifiant OHKOs / 2HKOs that Iron Tail nets over Iron Head that makes this theorymon worthwhile. It also doesn't have a tail (arguably the most significant detail). As far as Head Smash goes, plain and simple, I just do not think it has room for Head Smash on its moveset. It needs Swords Dance to actually deal damage, Shadow Sneak is mandatory to make up for its lacklustre speed, and needs Iron Head to damage Clefable. The last slot is a toss up but still, I cant not mention how valuable HP on a Doublade is, since that allows it to check stuff like Mega Aerodactyl on offensive teams which is a very very nice attribute. Makes running a move that forces it to take recoil kind of shitty because you're taking away from the raw bulk + typing that allows it to function as a pretty useful check to a lot of things early- to mid-game.

: Okay so since this one was my idea I'll give a little backstory about where it came from. When Zoroark got access to Sludge Bomb in Gen 6, I thought that would be a pretty nifty tool that allows it to get past Fairy-types like Florges except it didn't actually KO the Calm versions. Even in Gen 7 Fairy-types with a high degree of Special Defence such as Primarina still remained and I figured that Poison-type would be just the little push it needed to actually be able to secure KOs against them.

252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 320-377 (106.3 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 398-468 (101 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable: 330-390 (83.7 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Another benefit of having the Poison-type is that you are no longer vulnerable to super effective Mach Punch (granted it's shitty bulk really doesn't help much in this regard) but say you were at +2, not getting shit on by Mach Punch can have its advantages as pointed out in the post above.

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zoroark: 207-244 (79.3 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Conkeldurr: 512-604 (145.8 - 172%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Thus allowing you to retaliate! Of course if you don't wish to take recoil running Dread Plate would be a possibility.

: This idea arose from me wishing Infernape had a way around one of its biggest "Fuck you"s in the tier. Latias. It can come in on essentially every Infernape set and threaten it out. But, access to Sucker Punch changes that entirely as it forces Latias to run the risk of being KOd when trying to revenge kill it. The thing that actually appealed to me the most when looking at this was seeing that it didn't even need the Life Orb boost to guarantee the kill.

+2 252 Atk Infernape Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latias: 286-338 (95 - 112.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
i.e one Life Orb round on Latias.

This I found was pretty cool as it gives you the freedom to run a potential Z-move on it. This comes in handy against Pokemon such as Suicune as it falls to a +2 All Out Pummelling. In addition to being able to stop Latias from revenge KOing Infernape, Sucker Punch also allows it to beat other Pokemon that could have checked it such as Chandelure (rip Zam). These were the primary two things that came to mind when I was thinking about the benefits of Sucker Punch on Infernape. Though it was mainly focused on beating Latias, fuck Latias.

: I'm not too sure about this one either but that's probably because I've literally had 0 experience playing with Sneasel so I'm not too sure about the benefits of Adaptability but

252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl-Mega: 213-255 (70.7 - 84.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Sneasel Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 341-403 (86.5 - 102.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
and
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Suicune: 302-356 (74.7 - 88.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
seem pretty cool. So I think if it were to get Adaptability I'd almost exclusively be running Swords Dance on it :P.
 

G-Luke

We Eat Losers
is a Pre-Contributor
#7
Ok. My thoughts on the submissions.

I personally don't like this submission, for a couple reasons. It doesn't solve most of Doublade's issues in the meta, which involve its bad weaknesses to Fire, Ground, Ghost and most importantly Dark. Other issues involve overreliance on Shadow Sneak to threaten Offensive teams which are very popular now, the inability to check / Counter what Bulky Steels or Ghosts should (Most popular Fairies still comfortably beat it. Infernape, one of the more popular Fighters, fries it with Fire STAB. Bulky Scizor sets up on it. Celebi sets feat Earth Power lure in and maul it. It beats Latias 1v1 but loses alot of health in the process).

Iron Tail is a noticable damage increase, but most things it wishes to hit force it out anyways. Head Smash probably wont ever see usage, as the staggering recoil + the ease at which Doublade is worn down doesn't do it favours.

Absolutely love it. Poison/Dark is actually a great typing, and Zoroark's unpredictability thanks to its great movepool and ability Illusion can force many mindgames. A couple calcs above already show its attacking prowess. Most successful sets to me include Specs, Scarf, NP and Mixed. (SD seems more niche). Overall excellent sub and top contender for the first win in my book.

I dont have much of an opinion on this. I agree with the points above, but I feel that 4MSS heavily burdens it here, and a decision to run Sucker Punch may nerf it against many other threats.

This is my own sub so I have to support it. Its made to be an excellent Pursuit trapper and revengekiller in a tier dominated by fast threats and Psychic types (Latias, Mega Aero, Zydoge, Reuni, Slowking, Azelf are good examples). It's supposed to partner well with mons that appreciate these threats removed. It also has a strong Knock Off to cripple Fairy switchins. (Most also do not appreciate Icicle Crash)

252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Sneasel Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latias: 400-473 (132.8 - 157.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Sneasel Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 234-281 (53 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Primarina: 142-168 (47.1 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Sneasel Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Primarina: 125-147 (41.5 - 48.8%) -- 75.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

(Primarina cannot switch in at all)

252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl-Mega: 213-255 (70.7 - 84.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

I dont suggest running SD, as it will almost never get the chance to set up with its bulk. But if you do get up a SD, then your opponent very well be dead.
 

G-Luke

We Eat Losers
is a Pre-Contributor
#8
because i am avoiding all my work i shall think of something for this!!!!

Chandelure with Quiver dance
Chandelier currently only has calm mind to boost up, meaning it usually does jack shit (cant really set up) to offensive/faster teams. with quiver dance, it can now boost its speed making it a potent sweeper. although QD paired with substitute would probably be a bit broken for UU, it gets no reliable recovery like volcarona, as well as being weak to common propriety like aqua jet and sucker punch. even with timid, +1 is still outsped by threats that outspeed it (i think like crobat speed tier??? whatever it is) Fire/Ghost is pretty good coverage, but is still resisted by things like hydreigon and sharpedo, so u can try to switch in on the QD and live if u predict wrong.

Starmie with Protean (instead of analytic)
i was gonna type something but realized it would be too broken but tbh i like the idea so gonna leave it here still lol

tornadus with no guard!!!!
we all know how much fun M-pidgeot is to face so why not have a weaker and slower version, but with way better coverage and the ability to hold a real item!!! Tornadus rn isn't anywhere near broken, and i feel like whats holding it back from being a top tier threat is its largely inaccurate moves. giving up prankster also means it loses a rain team/tailwind niche so its a somewhat decent trade off.

cresselia with magic guard/regenerator never in a million years

ok back to work so thats all for now!!!
this was fun lol :^)
also excuse typos I'm so tired rn lmao
Several things wrong here. Firstly, submissions are done via PM. Secondly, all these subs arent proper at all for various reasons. PLease read the rules before posting.
 

Hogg

grubbing in the ashes
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
UU Leader
#9
Everyone, please read the OP. Submissions for future Theorymon ideas are to be sent to the Theorymon Council by PM. Discussion in this thread is to focus on the current slate.

I'll be deleting any off topic posts. If you've got a cool idea for a later theorymon, great - just send it through the proper channels.
 
#10


Agree on Iron Tail: I like Iron Tail Because it's Iron Head with more power, but without backdraws thanks to its ability that finally can be used.
Abstain on Head Smash: I'm not sure about Head Smash, because Doublade already needs to choice between Shadow Claw and Sacred Sword, but I like the idea of shooting a 150 BP Rock move on a Fire switch-in
It also doesn't have a tail
Primeape doesn't have a tail, but this didn't stop it from learning Iron Tail :p



Don't agree: if you play CAP, you know how simply Aurumoth boosts itself thanks to Illusion.
Also Zoroark can boosts itself in two ways, going choiced or mixed, that's essentially why I'm against boosting every Illusion user



Agree: Some faster pokémon can be revenge killed in this way, firstly Latias and Gengar:

252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latias: 187-221 (62.1 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 257-304 (98.4 - 116.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 187-221 (71.6 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Starmie: 195-231 (74.7 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Starmie: 195-231 (60.1 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery



Abstain at the moment: I like G-Luke motivation, but I prefer to hear more opinions, before to decide
 
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Hogg

grubbing in the ashes
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
UU Leader
#11
Neat slate to start off with.

Doublade finally getting Iron Tail is pretty cool, and makes Doubz way more dangerous to switch into. It's also a really good addition from a flavor perspective - I know there's no tail, but it means finally getting something that benefits from No Guard. On the other hand, it doesn't really change Doublade's role at all even if it does make it a lot scarier, so I guess it's not that exciting. This is probably my favorite out of the lot though. It's just a nice buff that doesn't make Doublade too powerful, but gives it enough of a boost to be worth using in UU. Probably my favorite of the bunch. (Doubt I'd ever use Head Smash though.)

Adaptability Sneasel is also pretty cool. That Speed is pretty much perfect for a stupid-strong Pursuit and lets Sneasel punish just about every Keldeo check in the world. Hitting harder with its STABs than Weavile did is definitely scary, but the slightly lower Speed and paper thin defenses means it might not actually be broken. Definitely interesting.

Sucker Infernape is... eh, I don't know, I'm just not that excited by this one. It has a few things it hits that are pretty clutch, and means SD Infernape is no longer walled by faster Psychics like Latias/Starmie, but I still can't really see myself using SD in this meta even so, and I still don't know that I'd give up Mach Punch. Kind of neat, but it's not my favorite.

Poison Zoroark is probably my second favorite. Dark/Poison is a fantastic defensive typing that helps make up for Zoroark's terrible defense, and getting some interesting extra STABs is great. SD is definitely cool, but I also just really like Specs with this thanks to STAB Sludge Bomb and new switchins that Zoroark didn't used to have. Definitely the flashier option, but I think I still like Iron Tail Doublade best of this bunch.
 
#12

Slightly Agree: To me it just seems like a weaker Weavile to take it's as Weavile is BL.

Slightly Disagree: Infernape is already really good so I'm worried this may make it a bit too good.

Agree on Iron Tail
Abstain on Head Smash:
I'm not sure about Doublade having Head Smash as Recoil will hurt it a lot and I feel like would have probably been better to just give it Stone Edge. Iron Tail would just be a small upgrade and makes sense if you argue that it's arm things function as tails.

Abstain: Not really sure how to feel about this until I play around with it for myself.

Also I was wondering if Nerfs to Pokemon above UU to make them fit in a UU setting are aloud.
 

G-Luke

We Eat Losers
is a Pre-Contributor
#13
Ok. For the final week of discussion, I want to gear it towards how they impact and or shape the metagame around it. So base furthur discussion on answering these questions.

What general impact would any of these submissions have on the metagame?

What Pokemon would benefit from the presence of this submission? What would be hindered?

To furthur expand on the above question, what would be likely teammates for this submission?

And finally, is this submission healthy for UU? If so, why? If not, why not?

Hope these thought provoking questions stir up quality discussion. See ya in a week.
 
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#14
All the submissions (except that of Zoroark) are good to raise their viability, but not too much good at the point to make them op.
-Doublade can do even more damage to the Fairies and kill some Fire type on the switch-in.
-Zoroark with its better typing can be more threatening, but its ability create a lot of mindgames because of the access of both Swords Dance and Nasty Plot.
-Infernape can revenge kill some Psychic types, but it has needs to sacrifice a coverage move or going all-out.
-Sneasel can be a good revenge killer, but its friability (and its rock weakness)

Cleaners appreciate this submissions beacuse 3 of them can setup and then wallbreak, obviously, walls don't like these
 

G-Luke

We Eat Losers
is a Pre-Contributor
#15
All the submissions (except that of Zoroark) are good to raise their viability, but not too much good at the point to make them op.
-Doublade can do even more damage to the Fairies and kill some Fire type on the switch-in.
-Zoroark with its better typing can be more threatening, but its ability create a lot of mindgames because of the access of both Swords Dance and Nasty Plot.
-Infernape can revenge kill some Psychic types, but it has needs to sacrifice a coverage move or going all-out.
-Sneasel can be a good revenge killer, but its friability (and its rock weakness)

Cleaners appreciate this submissions beacuse 3 of them can setup and then wallbreak, obviously, walls don't like these
Hi david0895, your thoughts should be more inline, with answering the questions I posted above, about the effect the subs have on the metagame. Its been done to death on what these submissions can or cannot do, so talking about it now is like beating a dead horse. Not meaning to squash opinions here, but there is a readon the questions were asked.
 
#16
Hi david0895, your thoughts should be more inline, with answering the questions I posted above, about the effect the subs have on the metagame. Its been done to death on what these submissions can or cannot do, so talking about it now is like beating a dead horse. Not meaning to squash opinions here, but there is a readon the questions were asked.
Sorry for being so superficial, answering directly to the questions:

What general impact would any of these submissions have on the metagame?

All the submissions will have a positive impact on the metagame, because they don't impact the direct counters of the receivers.
Except of Zoroark: adding the Poison type and another Poison move, allow it to beat the Fairy types that can stop it, forcing the opponent to use bulky Steel type on the physical side (that still take damage from Low Kick) and special walls like Tentacruel or Mandibuzz on the same team.

What Pokemon would benefit from the presence of this submission? What would be hindered?
To furthur expand on the above question, what would be likely teammates for this submission?


No specific pokémon appreciate the new Doublade moves, but Fire types are more threatened because they can't directly switch-in on a Head Smash.
Zoroark likes so much its new typing and move, because it can now eliminate all Fairy type.
Infernape's ability to take out weakened Psychic types is appreciated from strong attacker that can't eliminate them in one hit like scarfers.
Same story for Sneasel, but more extended, since it has a better offensive type and a better priority.
And finally, is this submission healthy for UU? If so, why? If not, why not?

For the same motivations of my first answer, this submission is healthy for the tier, but not in the Zoroark case
 
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Hogg

grubbing in the ashes
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
UU Leader
#17
Cynde and I played a couple of custom games with the changes this morning. Unfortunately we weren't able to test Zoroark, because customs don't let you mess around with typing, and neither of us actually brought Doublade in either game, but here they are if you're curious:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7customgame-559252661

I brought SD Sucker Ape, Cynde brought Sneasel. Neither mon really got to show off a ton, as we both had pretty solid answers to the other. SD Ape not being walled by Lati/Star was pretty nice (although Cynde's Colbur Starmie meant it didn't really matter much), while I had a pdef Klefki to keep Sneasel in check. Kind of a haxy game but fun.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7customgame-559255735

I made a quick and nasty version of ABR stall with Pursuit Sneasel to mess with stuff that otherwise annoys stall like SD Glisc and Heal Bell Toge. Unfortunately I played like I was half asleep and sacked my Sneasel pointlessly. Cynde's own Sneasel put in a lot more work though. Just like with Weavile, that STAB combo is particularly deadly - I had Colbur Lati, but with two ways to checkmate Latias it just wasn't enough. Cynde timed out but I probably wasn't winning that game.

I'll probably play some test games later but Adaptability Sneasel is by far the standout of the bunch as far as effectiveness is concerned. While it would appreciate a bit more Speed, especially so it doesn't have to risk a tie versus Starmie and Raikou, hitting even harder than Weavile makes it a threat and a half.

I'll post here if we manage to get in a good test with Doublade. Anyone else messed around with any of these theorymons yet?
 

Eyan

the great one with wings of steel
is a Tutoris a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator
Moderator
#18
I'm just going to be posting about Zoroark mainly, since that's the one that interests me the most.

What general impact would any of these submissions have on the metagame?
Ok honestly, I don't see the so-called impact of Zoroark changing that much, but the general gist of it is that it goes from mediocre at performing what it was designed to do to excellent. Disguising Zoroark has always been a really interesting mechanic that seems extremely promising at first glance before realising that what it can offer can be really mediocre in practice. The addition of Poison to its typing and Poison Jab alleviates this by a ton, considering that its new found STAB gives it the ability to really pressure stuff like Clefable that would normally be used a lot to scout for the Zoroark. Granted, depending on what you disguise Zoroark as, the end result could change a lot, but the fact remains that a lot of Zoroark's usual checks become a lot less reliable with STAB Sludge Bomb / Poison Jab. It's not like its other tools in Knock Off, Sucker Punch, Pursuit, etc get any worse either. Overall, I see this as pretty much an all-around improvement with no major practical drawback whatsoever. I guess the only thing I could think of is if Toxic Spikes is up, Zoroark absorbing them could give it away, since the chances of it disguising itself as another grounded Poison-type is really low; that is an extremely unlikely scenario, though.

What Pokemon would benefit from the presence of this submission? What would be hindered?
I'd say stuff like Krookodile just gets a lot more useful. Despite Krookodile being weak to Low Kick, which is a possible option on SD sets for Zoroark, the dominant set in Choice Scarf is able to switch in and take both STAB moves. It's annoying to switch into Knock Off, but you're still weakening it with Intimidate and scouting it properly, whereas if it's a special set, you can just switch in and revenge kill it, as long as you don't take a Focus Blast while doing so. Cobalion is a similar case considering it takes both STAB types with ease and outspeeds Zoroark but having to fear Flamethrower and Focus Blast / Low Kick. Generally speaking, most things that can switch into its two STAB moves would be a lot more useful, but they usually have to be careful of one coverage move or another, which can lead to some pretty nasty mind games in conjunction with Illusion.

To further expand on the above question, what would be likely teammates for this submission?
Dark-type and Dragon-type spam would work really well with Zoroark. In particular, Hydreigon would be nice with SD / Knock Off / Poison Jab / Sucker Punch or Low Kick | NP / Sludge Bomb / Dark Pulse / Focus Blast or Flamethrower sets just by disguising Zoroark as Hydreigon. Most people's switch-in to Hydreigon tend to be in the form of Clefable, Primarina, Empoleon, and the like, which Zoroark just KOes or severely weakens, opening the path for Hydreigon. Same can be said for something like Mega Sharpedo that tends to have like Clefable and Cobalion as checks, both of which can get bopped upon switch in. This is all assuming the situation is optimal, of course, since it's all about the mind games at that point. Also, the Zoroark-Hydreigon bluff isn't gonna work if Toxic Spikes or Spikes is up. I could see stuff like Haxorus and even Kommo-o be useful as well. Zoroark messes up usual switch-ins and can Pursuit trap Latias that outspeeds and OHKOes both.

And finally, is this submission healthy for UU? If so, why? If not, why not?
I really don't see how this could be unhealthy tbh. Zoroark was incredibly niche in ORAS and pretty much unviable in SM UU, so any boost it could get to increase its viability is welcome. Honestly, it probably wouldn't even be that much of a boost, but it'd at least make it somewhat viable, especially with the prominence of Clefable these days. It's still gonna get annoyed as hell by stuff like Mega Aerodactyl, Keldeo, etc.
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Anyway, from the looks of things, it seems as though a lot of people aren't very interested or don't really understand the relevance of a theorymon project. Simply put, over time, a tier shapes itself over certain trends and Pokemon, and we want to capitalise on these trends to come up with plausible ideas that would work well in the meta. Granted, it's not exactly the most exciting thing, since at the end of it all, it's just words without actual practical support. I'm also aware that most people right now are busy learning the actual tier that's currently stable (imo) but still developing. That said, considering there isn't too much going on at the moment and usage stats probably won't be out for a while, try to leave an opinion and your thoughts on this. You might actually find it a lot more interesting to think about if you go more in-depth and analysed things from the metagame perspective. This project has a ton of potential, but it's not going to work out without more people lending a hand.

Technically, we would be proceeding with the voting right about now, but frankly, it wouldn't really go that well, and it'd just set a bad pace for future rounds. So I'm going to leave this open for a bit more (as long as my co-hosts agree) to see if we can get more thoughts on the current slate. Remember, don't think about each idea on the surface as a Pokemon; it's the impact that's more worth thinking about. Cheers. :toast:
 
#19
So I'm new to Theorymon, but I'm going to try to chip in a bit on Zoroark (which is my favorite)

What Pokemon would benefit from the presence of this submission? What would be hindered?

Like mentioned earlier, anything that can come in on STAB moves get buffed. However, fairy types like Sylveon (;~; my bae), Clefable and Primarina are hindered, as they might not see Zoro coming then be OHKOed or 2HKOed by Poison Jab.

To further expand on the above question, what would be likely teammates for this submission?

I think things that can take on Ground types (the only weakness of this type combo) such as Primarina are good teammates, seeing as how they can make the opponent think twice before using EQ. Gengar is also a nice friend to Zoro, as they are both Poison types and play mind games on the foe.

I don't really have much to say about this slate, as I just joined. However, I really like the idea of Theorymon. I'm glad I get to take part in it!
 

G-Luke

We Eat Losers
is a Pre-Contributor
#20
Oh. I forgotten, I guess this is as much discussion we'll get this round, time to open voting.

+ Head Smash and Iron Tail
+ Dark/Poison typing and Poison Jab
(Credit to Cynde)
+ Sucker Punch
(Credit to Cynde)
+ Adaptability

To vote, simply type the name of your preferred option in bold formatting.

My vote and an example
Sneasel + Adaptability