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Gen 5 The UU Viability Ranking Thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 1, 2012.

  1. C AllStar

    C AllStar

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    I want to argue Rhyperior for A Rank. While it might not seems not that good with its poor speed stat and bad typing, Rhyperior has an extremely high attack near the level of Darmanitan's, coupled with near perfect coverage between its STABs, making it quite an offensive threat. In the other hand, it has solid defensive stats, letting it wall a major part of the metagame. It is actually quite versatile unlike what people usually think. In my opinion, there are six viable sets Rhyperior can use, each ccapable to sweep or wall a major part of the UU metagame.

    The first and most used set is the tank set on site with max attack investment and lefties as items. This set is probably the best physical tank in UU, capable to take all except 4X effective physical moves and retaliate with an attack stat of 140. It also brings stealth rock support, which is essential to every good team. It can even take an untrusted LO Heracross' Close Combat and had a chance to OHKO back with Stone Edge after rocks. This means that virtually no physical attackers can beat it one on one. It can even punch holes in teams lacking a dedicated physical wall. Between its dual STABs, there is only a few pokemon that can switch in safely. It can use Megahorn in the last slot to naim Slowbro, but I think that Dragon Tail has mire utility. With Dragon Tail, Rhyperior can be an emergency stop to stat uppers. It can even be used predicting a counter switching in, forcing it to take more hazard damage, making it easier to get past its counters. Overall, Tank Rhyperior is an excellent supporter and. Mid-game pivot for teams.

    Specially defensive set is hyped recently. It is really goof as an anti-meta pokemon. It checks the popular Raikou and Zapdos lacking hp grass (and water lol), taking even boosted hp ice with ease his and hits back with SE STAB respectively. It still acts as a good check to many physical attackers such as Arcanine and Flygon. It fits the definition of walking a majority of the tier perfectly.

    Physically defensive Rhyperior is actually really uunderrated. With base 110 base HP and 130 base defense fully invested, Rhyperior walls nearly any physical attacker with ease. For example, ScarfedMoxieCross fails to even 2HKO physically defensive Rhyperior. unlike most walls, this guy isn't setup bait even uninvested with near flawless coverage conning off such a high attack stat. Physically defensive Rhyperior walls huge part of the metagame while doing more than that.

    CB Rhyperior, though being mentioned several times before, is quite underused. Again, I am stressing the strength of dual high base power STAB moves with such good coverage. The combination of power and bulk of Rhyperior is unmatched in UU, thus making it an excellent CB user. With such great coverage and even Megahorn to beat Slowbro, CB Rhyperior can sweep through the entire UU metagame with minimal support.

    The Rock Polish set of Rhyperior is quite forgotten. It is quite a good lategame sweeper nonetheless. The only thing stopping Rhyperior from being S Tier is its pitiful speed stat. The one turn setup without boosting its power is bad, but RP Rhyperior is meant to act like Sharpedo. It maybe still outsped by common scarfers like MoxieCross, but its bulk sepetrates it from Sharpedo, enabling it to survive a close combat and OHKO back. It is even more powerful and has better coverage than Sharpedo. The only thing Sharpedo has over Rhyperior is Speed Boost making it near impossible to rrevenge. But Rhyperior is better in other aspects.

    SubSD is a set I always want to try. Well, I don't lime to theorymon, but I think that it definitely worths trying since it could break stall without much trouble. Not sure of its effectiveness though.

    With the sets above, I think its bulk, power and versatility makes Rhyperior a good pokemon. It should be a solid A Tier pokemon.

    By the way, my post arguing Kabutops for B Tier is ignored lol (I gave up raising it to A even it is really good).
  2. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
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    I'm a big fan of Rhyperior but it seems clearly B tier to me. It needs a little support and it can't sweep that often or wall a TON. What it does wall is really neat and important, but I would say its more on the same level as Pokemon like Blastoise and Sabeleye than Chandelure and Roserade.

    By the way why is Milotic A rank? No way it's anything higher than B.
  3. Diatom

    Diatom An enigma
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    I would like to nominate Chandelure for S-rank.

    If we were solely going off the ultra-common (why?) scarf set, this thing would be A-rank for sure. However, in my opinion, the specs set is what pushes Chandy into S-rank. There is one safe switch-in into this thing in the entirety of UU: Snorlax. With 4-move coverage of Fire Blast/Shadow Ball/Energy Ball/Hidden Power Fighting everything else in the tier is 2HKOd, including Porygon2 if you run Flame Body over Flash Fire. If you don't mind losing coverage on Houndoom, you can drop HP Fighting for Memento or Trick to either give a setup sweeper an opportunity to set up or cripple a wall. Even Snorlax is not safe if you are running Trick, as the Snorlax will certainly not be running special attacks.

    What's more, Chandelure can outspeed almost all of the pokes that it fails to OHKO, such as Blastoise and Porygon2. Many things that outspeed are weak to either fire or ghost, such as Shaymin, Mew, and Roserade, or are simply OHKOd regardless, such as Sharpedo, Zapdos, and Crobat. In addition, almost nothing faster than Chandelure that can actually take a hit from it can actually hit it back hard, with the only thing I can think of being Suicune.

    Thoughts?
  4. Squidsauce

    Squidsauce

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    To be honest I don't think Crobat is that great either lol. Maybe it's just the way I build teams. But what crobat has over zapdos is the niche of being one of the best pivots. Base 130 speed is never outsped, u turn, and taunt/superfang as utility moves.

    Zapdos as a wallbreaker sucks unless you give him incredible team support to get passed porygon2 and snorlax :P. Also it doesn't have much room to switch in since it's best at killing those bulky water pokemon, but can't switch into scalds freely. The defensive set used to be the bigger set, since it "countered" heracross, but it's not used so much anymore, for good reason. I'm pretty sure Zapdos can't switch into a scarf heracross stone edge, with SR at play. I just see a bunch of roles, but none of which zapdos is particularly good at. I'll admit versatality is a strength, but to me it doesn't matter enough.

    Until it gets lightningrod, perhaps I will never understand why it's S rank. Then again, opinions exist.

    I understand your position, but I think you're still missing the point. Can't really say I'm surprised, because more offensive teams are seldom used in UU. It's always balanced or stall from what I see. Lanturn can switch into a lot of threats in the metagame, and volt switch to hit their switch in. Then you can safely bring in something like life orb darmanitan to shit on the opposing stall team, or choice scarf reckless mienshao to sweep a more offensive team. No other pokemon can do this and have so many easy switch ins like lanturn, besides gligar on the physical side (honestly this pokemon is a beast and I would nominate for rank S if only it weren't 2HKO'd by CB Flareblitz). Again, I'm not expecting much in terms of actual ranking but I do think lanturn is severely underrated and... underused. *ba dum ch*
  5. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
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    Zapdos doesn't generally beat Snorlax one on one, but as long as you have a healthy team Zapdos WILL break through Snorlax. Choice Band has no recovery and can only hit Zapdos effectively with a Normal move, which isn't the hardest thing in the world to bring something into. Even if it Pursuits, it would have done less than a Return anyway, and Zapdos can handle it. Sleep Talk is 3HKOed when it takes three turns to heal again, so that means it loses. The way you play Zapdos is you fire off a powerful hit and then take it out, then once Snorlax is in KO range you bring it in and go to town on their team. Specs Volt Switch can be a remarkably safe move in the right conditions.

    seriously guys i have no idea where you got the idea that if you have a snorlax you don't need to worry about zapdos. it's probably the biggest threat to the slowbro / snorlax / crobat core as well as the snorlax / cofagrigus or gligar core. Underestimate at your peril.
  6. hilarious

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    I'm pretty sure I made a post saying Crobat wasn't S Rank either.

    252+ SpA Life Orb Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 208 HP / 176+ SpD Snorlax: 153-183 (29.82 - 35.67%) -- 52.25% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
    Snorlax will almost never die if he uses the better 252 hp/ 252 spd spread and is 3hko half the time only otherwise.

    This is not to mention almost all Zapdos are Timid except weird ones like kokoloko's.

    I want Chandelure to be suspected but I don't think its S rank lol. Yes it is strong but it will never sweep to be honest and even with a spread like 152 hp / 252 spa / 100 spe (enoguh to beat 0 speed roserade i think) it still lacks bulk to switch into anything but immunities which are always risky since those guys tend to have super effective coverage moves to ko Chandelure with (think EQ with Darm).

    SpDef rhyperior is cool but it really struggles to set up SR on some faster teams and even struggles to get past defensive Zapdos that dont even run hp grass because Rhyperior's rock blast is weak and his Stone Edge can be stalled out pretty easily. I think he is more like really high B than A rank.
  7. Pocket

    Pocket GOJIRA
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    Yea, Lanturn has some cool resistances, but it gets wear down easily and isn't much useful outside of spreading paralysis and slow Volt-Turns. It's C-Rank at best. Zapdos belongs in the same tier as Raikou for sure. Raikou has Electric resistance, 115 base Speed, and Calm Mind, but Zapdos has EQ immunity, Grass resistance, 125 base SpA, Roost, and is arguably more versatile. It can easily run defensive sets with Sub Roost, nuke things with its LO set, it can sweep late-game with Agility, or even Baton Pass.

    Speaking of C rank, I'm surprised Umbreon lies there. Umbreon is one of the most solid utility mon, sponging many dangerous special moves reliably and healing its team with Wish and Heal Bell. Foul Play gives it a steady source of damage, too. I understand that Umbreon may be Heracross bait, but it also counters many dangerous special threats in UU. Umbreon should move up to B rank.

    I also find it absurd that Cofagrigus is higher in ranking than Chandelure. OTR Cofagrigus has lost its initial effectiveness, imo - it's not hard to limit its sweeping capabilities by hitting it hard before it can fully set up. Pokemon like Snorlax, Umbreon, Togekiss, Roserade, and Meloetta and Blastoise can nullify it easily as well. The physically defensive set may have more utility in countering many more physical threats, but it has no offensive presence. Cofagrigus for A rank.
  8. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
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    I can get behind this, and I'm starting to turn on Crobat for S too (but I think it's still up there, Super Fang is extremely underrated and fucks up its counters really well since few of them have good recovery). I think we overcompensated for Heracross.
  9. C AllStar

    C AllStar

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    Well, for Zapdos I think it is S Rank for sure. Havimg a hard counter doesn't necessary means it is bad. For example, Genesect is hard countered by Heatran and sand Terrakion, but it was S Rank when it was still in OU. Zapdos may have a strong counter of Snorlax, but it can still perform its job of sweeping or walling well depending of its set. It's versatility and consistency to perform it's job well pushes Zapdos S. Besides, while Snorlax is bulky, it has no reliable recovery, making it easily being weakened and eventually Zapdos can get past it.
  10. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
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    Here's the deal. Specs sets would be unbeatable except they can only ever use one move at a time. There's a reason Choice Heracross won't sweep a team that has a Zapdos and a Rhyperior and a Ghost type, even though the team clearly lacks a "heracross counter". Chandelure also has some pretty significant drawbacks, mainly in being checked by both Snorlax and Crobat in S tier, while potentially being setup fodder for Kingdra if you mess up. Stealth Rock and its many weaknesses really bring it down. It's still excellent, but it doesn't conquer the metagame quite like the other Pokemon. I could see it drift upwards if metagame trends adjust a little though.
  11. silenced

    silenced

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    While Chandelure is not techincally S-Rank according to the descriptions listed, as a wall-breaker, it surely would have to qualify as S-Rank there. Perhaps wall-breaking capabilities should be added to the descriptions to account for this? I think you'd qualify quite well if your only safe switch happens to consist of one pokemon, and even then, a very specific set of one pokemon (since chandelure will just switch out of snorlax, and without SR, only banded snorlax scores the KO with pursuit).
  12. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
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    You're missing my point. A Specs user can't use all four moves at once. Safe switch ins are situational depending on what attack has the best cost-benefit ratio. If you're building teams to have perfect counters to everything, you're building crappy teams with no offense.
  13. Warb

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    I find it hard to fit Super Fang onto my Crobat set. It is a great move to hit its incoming checks and counters early game, but what move to replace? Brave Bird and Roost shouldn't be touched imo, which leaves only Taunt and U-Turn. So, you either lose a lot of momentum or a good answer to stall and set up.

    As for the Chandelure discussion: It greatest problem is getting pursuit trapped by things like Snorlax, Honchkrow and Houndoom, because let's be honest here: 95% of all Chandelures are choiced, and pursuit trapping choiced Dark-weaks is something that occurs everywhere (hi OU metagame). I'm also iffy on the decision between S and A rank, because while the (overall) most powerful set is Specs, being choiced AND weak to Dark is its greatest weakness at the same time.
  14. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
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    Being able to run a move that makes nothing a truly safe Crobat switch in works wonders. A lot of the things you would U-turn out of, you'll either be able to predict the switch and double switch, or hit it with Super Fang. A number of great players disagree with me though, so your mileage may vary.
  15. Warb

    Warb

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    Yeah, I agree that the most obvious switches can be dealt with just as easily by double switching. But not everyone is gonna go for the obvious plays, people will always predict to predict you to predict them and so on. U-Turn at least gives you the safety of always switching after your opponent should he switch out, and if he doesn't you know most of the time what to switch in. U-Turn let's you narrow down your opponent's options without relying on prediction solely which makes the move kinda important for Crobat, who cannot afford to take more hits than needed imo.
  16. Direwolf12

    Direwolf12

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    So what about Arcanine? I've been using the Bulky Arcanine and he works pretty well...
  17. Worldtour

    Worldtour left: Hitmonchan right: rest of RU
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    I completely agree with these two things btw
  18. PK Gaming

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    =====
    Update
    =====

    Chansey was added to S-tier
    Cofagrigus down from S-tier ==> A-tier


    So after much deliberation Cofagrigus finally dropped from S-tier. It's still a fantastic Pokemon, but it was decided it just wasn't comparable to S-tier Pokemon.

    Chansey makes it to S-tier, but there wasn't really any doubt of that happening. It's a golden standard defensive Pokemon Pokemon that can be used on any team (5 sweepers + chansey is viable) that can shut out 70% of the tier. I don't know enough about Abomasnow, but it should be at least A-tier (if not S-tier). I want to give it more time before I tier it.
  19. Bent1ey

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    Both moves seem good, I've been advocating to get Cofagrigus on A for a while now, mostly because you're more likely to lose some tempo when using it, but it's still a great supporting option. Chansey, of course, is a no brainer.

    Abomasnow certainly belongs in A-tier, it has excellent coverage, a variety of options -from Subseed, to Choiced with priority, to subattacking variants-, and it's a pretty decent switch in on non-Aura Sphere Raikou and bulky waters in general. That without even factoring its Hail inducing ability, it's easy to overlook the rest of its benefits because Hail its the main attraction. Ice type moves aren't nearly as good in UU as they are in OU but you still hit Roserade and Flygon pretty hard, with some prediction you can also do a number on Crobat and Zapdos -facing Crobat is all about prediction anyways-.

    I also think that since the viability of Hail suddenly increased, the few Hail abusers that actually get some play should be reviewed for the viability list, not depending on a tragic poke such as Snover is a huge bump in viability.
  20. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    Both moves were nice. Cofa isn't THAT good, but he's certainly fantastic. Chansey was "Okay, no duh". Best special wall ever lgi.

    That said, Abomasnow is definitely A Rank material. It has numerous viable sets: SubSeed, CB, Scarf, Mixed, are just to name a few. It also is a very good way to deal with things like Raikou and bulky Waters. Did I not mention it has hail support, so it can make a hail team. Yeah, Abomasnow is a great Pokemon. It has a nice place in A Rank.

    Also, I'd like to nominate Amoonguss for around B-Rank, if not A. Amoonguss is great in the UU metagame-it has a decent defensive typing, nice bulk, and Spore and Regenerator. It can incapacitate an opponent, and paralyze (cripple) another with the Double Powder set. It can neuter boosts with Clear Smog, and wear shit down with Giga Drain. That's definitely cool. Regenerator also provides it with some recovery. (It can wall the hell out of Raikou and Roserade, too). Yeah, Amoonguss is a great Pokemon in UU that IMO should get B-Rank.
  21. MicfiJasan

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    I'll admit I'm not that experienced with this metagame, but I'm shocked that Cresselia doesn't have a tier. I feel that everything in UU and BL2 should be listed somewhere on this thread.

    Since I feel I need a direct proposal to get this noticed, I'll say Cresselia for B-Tier. While it struggles with status and hail cutting its recovery, it's still has amazing mixed defenses and the ability to pose an offensive threat with a Sub-CM set, or it can run Thunder Wave to cripple potential switch-ins like ScarfMoxie Heracross.
  22. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    I still have two nominations standing that may need some attention.

    Before I make my nomination, I request that you remove Chansey from the rankings as it was quickbanned.

    Also, I'd like to nominate Umbreon for B-Rank. With Chansey quickbanned, Umbreon can go right up to B-Rank. Sure, Umbreon has no offensive presence, but his many good qualities almost completely migitate that. Umbreon has great bulk, allowing it to take many hits. He also has support moves that only the barely usable Clefable has: Heal Bell and Wish. This allows Umbreon to be the one and only cleric and WishPasser in the whole UU tier. Since Umbreon is bulky and has a good 95 Base HP stat, he is very effective at doing this. He also is a wonderful cleric, and can cure status for the team, especially for his buddies Blastoise/Cofa/P2. Okay, he has no offensive presence? He has Foul Play now, so he can catch his typical switch-ins, as most of them are physical, for great damage. Darmanitan is OHKO'd by Foul Play, and some others take some sizable damage. Overall, Umbreon can't wall everything in the UU metagame, but he can properly fulfill his given defensive niche: A Cleric and WishPasser, and thus is more than worthy of a B-Rank placement.

    Ambipom for E pls. It sucks at everything it does: it also loses to everything lol.
  23. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    Incoming

    Chansey up from S-tier ==> sayonara bitch
    Umbreon up from C-tier ==> B-tier
    Azumarill up from C-tier ==> B-tier
    Xatu up from C-tier ==> B-tier

    EDIT:

    Umbreon: I figured it was about time. It's a good anchor on stall teams, and it can even mess up Special Attackers with Foul Play(in addition to physical attackers). That is... until Special Attackers start lowering their Attack IVs to 0 ;)

    Xatu: Xatu is amazing in a tier where hazards literally mean everything. It's really good at denying hazards, and it's half decent support Pokemon / general check choiced Fighting-types. If your opponent relies on hazards to win, and they don't have a strong pursuiter, they're fucked if they have Xatu. It's bad idea to keep Xatu in C-tier imo, Magic Bounce is just too powerful of an ability.

    Azumarill: This one might change, but i've seen Azumarill in action and only one word comes to mind; clutch. It's just a good offensive Pokemon with pros and cons. (ie: it suffers against teams that run dedicated bulky waters, but other than that its a team killer.) I personally think that it's too strong for C-tier.
  24. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
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    I disagree with both Azumarill and Xatu going up to B-rank, nor do I see any discussion of either. What's changed in their favor at all?
  25. Nas

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    Yeah I think these two need to be discussed before you move them up to B tier, PK. I don't know if their usage in last week's SPL had a hand in your decision to move them up, but they were only used because they benefited from Chansey being in the tier. As cim said, nothing has changed in their favour. Xatu has steadily become less reliable at keeping hazards off the field ever since the Nido's got SR + Sheer Power, and it loses to Froslass, UU's best (imo) Spiker. Furthermore, the increasing popularity of CB Snorlax seriously hurts it. Azumarill might be worth discussing, since the only Pokemon that actually hard-counter it are Slowbro and Qwilfish. Every other Water-resist is hit extremely hard by Double-Edge, and Aqua Jet can very useful against offense. Although it hasn't really gotten any better it may have slipped under our radar before, so I'd consider it a low-mid B-tier Pokemon.

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