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Gen 5 The UU Viability Ranking Thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 1, 2012.

  1. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    =====
    Update
    =====

    Abomasnow added to A-tier
    Amoonguss added to C-tier
    Cresselia added to C-tier

    Abomasnow's placement should be self explanatory. It creates its own playstyle and its a legitimately good Pokemon on its own. It even go up into S-tier in the future, who knows...

    I haven't really used Amoonguss or Cresselia, they seem good enough on paper to at least warrant C-tier. As with abomasnow, they might move up too.
  2. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    Something I forgot to mention before, but Clefable definitely deserves a place on the list somewhere. I'm going to say C-Rank right now because Umbreon has more sheer bulk than Clefable. However, the main thing that sets Clefable apart from Umbreon is Magic Guard. Unlike Umbreon, Clefable is able to be a reliable special tank even when hazards, status, and hail are flying around, and when countering things like Leech Seeders. It also has a wider movepool than Umbreon, with access to support moves like Encore, Softboiled, Thunder Wave, Stealth Rock, and Knock Off.

    Also, Blastoise needs to be in A-Rank. It's simply the best spinner in the tier, no questions asked. Enough said.
  3. TPO3

    TPO3 Never practice; Always perform.

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    I can agree with Clefable in C-Rank. Honestly, I think iut's very overlooked as a special tank.

    Blastoise I would like to remain B-Rank, though. On standard offense as well as balanced teams, you rarely want a spinner at all. It just nukes all of the momentum you've build up. Blastoise also has no reliable recovery, so it will get worn down very quickly. (Especially now that Victini has Bolt Strike. :\)
  4. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    I think that having a Rapid Spinner is still pretty important, even if it's not completely necessary. SR takes a large chunk of damage out of some of the best Pokemon in the tier each time they switch in (Zapdos, Crobat, Chandelure, Darmanitan, and Victini, just to name a few), which puts a huge strain on their ability to pose an offensive and defensive threat over the span of an entire game. Not to mention, spike-stacking teams are still good, and if they manage to get up SR + X layers of spikes, they essentially place a ticking time bomb on your side of the field.

    Even if Blastoise doesn't have the bulk necessary to counter every fire-type out there (who can blame him?), his ability to get rid of hazards more reliably than anything else in the tier should nail him a solid spot in A-Rank IMO.
  5. LionKingMax

    LionKingMax

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    Isn't Clefable already in C-rank?
  6. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest I Love Goomy
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    It's not even on the rankings... OH WAIT IT IS! It was just added, lol.

    Blastoise isn't A-Rank because, while an excellent spinner nonetheless, it is mostly outclassed by the other bulky waters in UU outside of that role. It is also a weakling offensively, and often times as a result it is a massive momentum killer, sans the useless Gligar. He also has no recovery, so he's insanely easy to wear down. Blastoise isn't great by any means, but spinning is his given defensive niche, and that fits the B-Rank perfectly. And when I go for the Qwil, I'd rather be using Claydol for my spinner. I'm dead serious when I say that.
  7. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest I Love Goomy
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  8. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
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    I feel like we are falling into the trap of "any Pokemon somebody likes becomes C-rank or better".
  9. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest I Love Goomy
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    Well, I'm not a fan of either Whimsicott or Sigilyph, but I've used 'em and both proved to be pretty decent Pokemon in their own ways. And both are definitely better than Claydol, that's for sure.
  10. Cesterp

    Cesterp

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    Bringing up a whole new conversation here. I think it was earlier but I'd like to take another shot at this.

    Crobat.

    In order to be S-tier- "Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank."

    Crobat cannot sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame. Anything with Scald, Electric types, Steel types with some form of attacking move, Rock types, scarfed offensive threats, anything with a powerful Ice Shard, and anything that isn't 2HKO'd by a 90 base attack Brave Bird really does not mind Crobat. They are neither killed nor are they walled by Crobat.

    Crobat doesn't do a huge job at supporting other pokemon with little or no cost. Sure, it can switch in on things that don't like Crobat switching in on them, but anything on the list above can just come in on Crobat and it's running away again, which can hurt if Stealth Rocks are up. It doesn't have a support movepool- they only way it truly supports its team is through momentum, but all it takes is a smart prediction on your opponent's side to ruin momentum.

    Crobat cannot perform multiple roles effectively. When you see a Crobat, it has Brave Bird/U-Turn/Roost/Taunt/Super Fang, with an occasional Toxic and Cross Poison. That's it. If I can give you every move you'll ever see competitively and there's fewer than 10, there's not variety. Especially when they don't concern different sets. For example, Kingdra more or less has 8-10 moves you'll see, but there are two, individual, dangerous and powerful sets to worry about when a Kingdra switches in. Three, if you like rain. Crobat pretty much has different options for the same simple goal.

    And as far as flaws are concerned... Crobat is SR weak. It's not powerful enough nor does it have the movepool to be used offensively, and it's not bulky enough nor does it have the perfect movepool to be used as a wall. You don't just slap a Crobat on a team and call it your physical wall, you use it for stopping certain threats. And sure, its band set does some damage. But you can slap a band on Hitmontop or Nidoking and deal more damage. Not to mention it truly does have issues switching in on attacks- stealth rocks + anything non-resisted will bring Crobat very close to death, and any form of revenge killing will pretty much be the end of it.

    No, I'm not arguing that it's bad. It's pretty useful and nifty when given the right opportunities. But it's not S. It's A. It doesn't sweep most of the tier, it doesn't wall most of the tier. It doesn't have variation, and the significant flaws (of being totally walled by every steel type ever, weak to ice when hail is flying around, and having the SR weakness) are not made up for by anything in particular.

    Plus, unexpected scarves also exist. Scarfed Raikou, Zapdos, Weavile, Azelf, and a few other anti-scarfers can spell the end for Crobat in a very short amount of time.
  11. TPO3

    TPO3 Never practice; Always perform.

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    I want to type an elaborate response to that post, but it's too late and I'm only half coherent, so I'm going to be a lazy bum who just finds other people's arguments and re-posts them. 1st one is hidden because it's a long ass post.
    Show Hide

    -At this point I tried to debate that Crobat doesn't check bulky waters or Togekiss because waters can spam scald and use an Ice-type coverage move, while Togekiss could Para/Nasty Plot.



  12. Bent1ey

    Bent1ey

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    I'd like to mention that I'm not adamant against Crobat being on A instead of S, but your post neglects to mention the reasons that made it rise to S in the first place.

    While Crobat doesn't wall most of the meta, is a solid counter but several pokes, and its CB set is an effective late game sweeper when needed to be. Obviously Crobat isn't geared as an offensive pokemon nor an straight built wall anyways, so the argumentation is a bit pointless.


    Except it does. The threat of Crobat allows you to play an entirely different game by and on itself, pokemon that would try to go offensive on you inmediately are forced to overpredict hoping to ko Crobat cheaply. Also there is the tempo, the ability to stall pokemon and actively neutering entire strategies. Crobat's presence is strong even when it's not in the field. Pretty neat at absolutely no cost.


    Well, Crobat has a CB set and even -god forbid- a NP set. But the regular one is so effective and what it does and so powerful on its own right that it's pretty much used by everyone. Crobat also sets up Rain and Sun when needed at reliable speeds and recovering tempo. So... Not saying Crobat its versatility incarnated, but it's more than your one dimensional poke.
  13. sickweare

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    @Cestersp There's no reason to argue Crobat's S-tier placement really. Everything that kokoloko said in the "best mon in the tier" thread is absolutely spot on. You may not think it looks good, but its performance is outstanding and on all of my UU teams that have him, he's probably my most valued mon. His ability to keep momentum and provide awesome STAB Brave Birds and offer unique supporting tools is what keeps him up there.

    He's also not really walled by steel types either, because A. Bronzong or Registeel get shutdown by Taunt, B. Cobalion's flying resistance is nullified by fighting typing, and C. He can U-turn in to whatever he feels best when the likes of Empoleon arrive.

    Literally if you don't think Crobat is that good at what it does, then Idk if you've been using him correctly, because he is a top tier pokemon. SR weakness is like nothing anyway when he has roost and an awesome defensive typing when you look at the major mons in this tier. And it is absolutely true that he beats walls 1v1, as well as shutting down sweepers and other annoying things. Crobat is definitely S-tier.
  14. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest I Love Goomy
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    I'm going to give my arguments here.

    Arguments in bold.
  15. Squidsauce

    Squidsauce

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    The annoying part is that Crobat can't switch into heracross/roserade/mienshao because of stone edge, sleep powder, and stone edge. It also loses 25% to stealth rocks, which makes it prioritize roosting up over utilizing any potential offensive momentum.

    That's why I really hesitate when I read that Crobat is a "fantastic anti-metagame" pokemon. U turn is great, but I think gligar does a better job as a pivot since it can switch into a higher variety of things and lose much less to SR.
  16. Squidsauce

    Squidsauce

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    On another note, maybe these proposed changes can spur some discussions:

    heracross--> suspect. no counters (swords dance facade beats gligar easily)
    gligar B --> A. Counters nearly every physical attacker (can stall out fucking azumarill) and u turns out for momentum, sets up rocks, and is a dedicated physical wall
    mienshao A --> S. HP ice/HJK/u turn/SE or Fakeout = hard to play around
    chandelure A --> S. No snorlax or P2? Get fucked son
    crobat S --> A. see previous comment
    froslass A --> S. between taunt, destiny bond, and spikes.... good luck guessing what this beast will do. you'll find yourself playing 5-5 and with 2 spikes disadvantage. there's actually no way to beat this thing.
    zapdos S --> A. can't sweep like raikou, gets hurt by rocks, forced to switch out often because of its speed. what's going for this thing? wallbreaking with life orb? i'm not buying S until it gets lightningrod
  17. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest I Love Goomy
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    However, Gligar lacks any sort of offensive presence. It also cannot switch in on Roserade, Shaymin, and Scrafty the way Crobat can. Crobat takes little, but it can dish out some damage back in return, and it has room for Taunt. Crobat's flaws are thoroughly mitigated by its qualities.

    Flaws:
    SR weakness
    Dismal movepool

    Qualities:
    Checks half the damn meta
    Great typing defensively
    Roost

    Heracross...It's up to the council and further discussion in the NP threat to warrant a suspect for it.

    I do not agree with moving Gligar to A. While it is a good physical wall who can take on Heracross, it is also a big momentum killer thanks to its weak offensive presence. It also is vulnerable to special attackers. Still, Gligar is pretty decent for use in UU, but is not A-Rank worthy.

    Mienshao for S was something I was just about ready to speak on. It's a great and modestly versatile Pokemon in the tier; it hits pretty damn hard, has a great speed tier, makes for a great mixed attacker. And the Scarf set is a solid revenge killer, and Jolly Scarf is literally the fastest thing in the tier. U-turn also allows it to keep up momentum and also escape from Cofagrigus. It also has SD and Baton Pass to do work too, and STAB Hi Jump Kick ain't nothin' to be trifled with. And plus, everyone uses it. Good thing you mentioned it; I was just ready to speak on it. But then again, that's just what I think.

    Chandelure was actually discussed on, although it is a fan fave of mine, here's why it isn't S.

    No for Crobat for reasons stated above.

    I really am thinking Froslass should be S at this point. Let's be honest here: Froslass is the best spiker in the tier; it can Taunt, it is a speedy Spiker, its Cursed Body ability and Destiny Bond. It's a one trick pony, but it does its one job pretty damn well. You're not going to remove it without having some Spikes down, and heck one of your Pokemon removed from play.

    This post explains as to why Zapdos is S-tier material.
  18. sickweare

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    Hi there bud. I wanted to let you know that this is not the place to suggest suspects, really. That's more suited for the thread with the current stage on it to generate discussion.

    Also, I'm assuming you haven't tried Crobat to the best of its ability. SR weakness doesn't mean much when Crobat can roost off damage, and trying to say that Gligar outclasses Crobat is kind of irrelevant as they're used as different kinds of things (Gligar being a wall, Crobat for... well idk even how to describe what he does). There really is no proper argument so far that justifies Crobat being anything lower than S-tier and I suggest you see kokoloko's post that TPO3 quoted in his hide tags. That should give you a good idea on what Crobat does. I'm beginning to see that Crobat may look bad on paper, but is excellent in practice. At the same time, I see it as excellent on paper too :x

    Regarding your other arguments, you might want to elaborate more so we can get a better understanding of why you're saying what you are.
  19. Squidsauce

    Squidsauce

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    Sorry about the suspect issue, but surely it doesn't hurt to mention some thoughts?

    Anyways, sometimes it's effective to agree to disagree on some things; other people see potential in zapdos and crobat while I see them as less than great (especially zapdos). One of the ways I build teams is to see if a dedicated stall team can beat me without prediction. Anyways, if there's ever support for bringing crobat or zapdos down, I will chime in support. In the mean time, let's look at some other things. I'll expand (I left it intentionally terse to spur discussion instead of present an argument).

    Mienshao - Stopped by gligar/cofag/etc based on what 3 attacking moves it picks, but in all cases it can u-turn out safely and effectively due to life orb + regenerator + being faster than all its counters to keep momentum. Also the scarf set is one of the best in the metagame, outspeeding basically everything and every common scarf pokemon. It KOs raikou, a decently bulky pokemon.

    Chandelure - I'm not sure how you can deal with this beast without a snorlax or P2. Hope it leaves soon anyways.

    Froslass - There exists no algorithm to beat Taunt/DB/Spikes without getting lucky. It's one of those pokemons that make the game very frustrating.
  20. Jeffbelittle

    Jeffbelittle

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    I'm going to nominate Volbeat for C tier, because I've made him work so well in UU, not because I "like him" as Cim was worried.

    Volbeat has an absolutely gamebreaking combination of special moves. With a Prankster Baton Passer, you nearly always get off a Tail Glow (+3 stage) raised Special Attack passed to a danger on your team.

    Volbeat also has absolutely great other options to abuse Prankster. Encore forces free buffs on Stealth Rocks/Spikes/Status Effects/Not Lethal attacks. Not to mention she has Thunderwave. So unlike venomoth, she can paralyze large scarf'd threats before she dies.

    With access to tail glow, encore, prankster, t-wave, and baton pass, and even access to weather moves, you'd be insane to see the utility of this great pokemon in UU.
  21. Not Jacky

    Not Jacky

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    Froslass is by no means guaranteed to get 2 free turns to do whatever she pleases. There's a handful of common Pokemon that prevent her from getting up any Spikes:

    - Cinccino and Beat Up Ambipom
    - Sableye
    - Taunt Tornadus (wins vs Shadow Ball + Focus Sash variants)
    - Crobat (wins vs Shadow Ball + Focus Sash variants)
    - Taunt Azelf (wins vs Ice Beam variants, can set up SR)

    There are also things that only give Froslass one turn:

    - Sharpedo
    - Rock Blast Rhyperior (plus, Froslass can be outpredicted and use Taunt)
    - Weavile
    - Scarf Chandelure, Darmanitan, Rotom-H
  22. cim

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    The idea that you can't switch into something, especially a Choice user, because it carries one SE move is a bit fallacious.
    It is still an extremely viable check, it just needs to come in on the right move. This takes a bit of predictions and risk management. Weaknesses to coverage moves can be somewhat handled by other Pokemon on your team.

    And to be frank, Crobat doesn't LIKE SR, but it handles it just fine. It can revenge anything unboosted and gets free Roosts on several pokemon. Keep in mind offensive teams are often winning battles in 20-30 turns so hazard damage is less of a problem.

    ---
    As an aside, without Taunt or a sleep move I see few situations where Volbeat is better than Venomoth or Mew.
  23. Mazz

    Mazz UU's Workhorse
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    I'm moderately surprised that these two haven't been mentioned yet, but I'd like to nominate Walrein for B-Rank and Rotom-F for A-Rank. With the re-introduction of Abomasnow and Snow Warning to the tier, their usage has sky-rocketed (Walrein went from sitting around #175* to #68 since hail was brought back, and Rotom-F from #231* to #69),

    Walrein deserves the B-Rank due to its ability to stall a reasonable portion of the metagame, bar the few stallbreakers and Steel-types in the tier. Between the recovery from Leftovers, Ice Body, and Protect (letting it do it all over again if need-be), Walrein is very difficult to knock out unless you're using a team of fast Pokemon immune to Toxic. The residual damage brought upon by Toxic, Hail, and the rare Roar or Surf can whittle away at teams, breaking key walls and opening up a sweep for another member of the team. With minimal prediction, Walrein becomes a very effective staller, simply because Substitute and Protect are easy for it to spam. However, due to its reliance on hail, weakness to Stealth Rock, and vulnerability to common phazing moves, Walrein cannot compete as a top-tier defensive Pokemon.

    Rotom-F is deserving of the A-Rank because of its excellent offensive typing, and habit of being an offensive boon to hail teams. STAB Thunderbolt and Blizzard / Ice Beam make it a great offensive pivot in the Underused tier and somewhat difficult to switch into, with only Snorlax, Porygon2, Umbreon, and Rotom-H being the only "guaranteed" safe-switches, taking minimal damage from Rotom-F's STAB and coverage moves. Its ability to also Trick a Choice item to an opposing wall, such as Cofagrigus or Snorlax, also gives Rotom-F greater offensive viability, as it may have permanently crippled one of the opposing team's check(s) to it. Without Rotom-F, hail offence would be nigh unusable, as very few Pokemon carry enough viability to contend in the tier. However, Rotom-F is held back from S-Rank, simply because of it's reliance on Snow Warning to start pulling massive damage and weakness to Stealth Rock, preventing it from hopping in and out of a match without Spin support.

    With hail looking like it's here to stay, these two will be relatively important pieces of our metagame, and should be made aware of. Both are solid Pokemon with their own flaws, but if used properly, they can reduce teams to rubble.

    *Data obtained from October's usage stats
  24. Squidsauce

    Squidsauce

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    This is where I find some serious fault in reasoning. 25% chance of GG crobat is pretty high, and mathematically, I'd argue that it's upwards 50%. Given team preview, heracross will either predict the switch in or not. It's a binary event so reasonable players will have ~50% chance of predicting your switch in. You won't force it out more than twice before getting nailed.

    You might also argue that crobat isn't your only check. Fair enough. But that either means you're running gligar/cofag (in which case why would you need crobat to check heracross?) or running a faster scarf pokemon, in which case, bleh.
  25. kokoloko

    kokoloko supersmooth
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    Oh god not this again. People are not machines. You cannot look at moves as having x probability of happening--it's different every single time.

    This is especially true when you're dealing with revenge killing. For example, you bring your Scarf Heracross to revenge a +1 Kingdra--you Stone Edge against it predicting the Crobat switchin, you lose. Still think there's a high chance that he'll Stone Edge? Maybe... if you're playing someone who knows nothing about risk management. Better yet, you know your opponent has an Agility SubPetaya Empoleon waiting in the wings... are you really going to Stone Edge then?

    Don't read too much into these scenarios, they're only examples to illustrate my point. That being that you shouldn't--or rather, you can't--quantify how good of a check Crobat is to threats x, y, and z. You can only look at individual scenarios, figure out things such as risk vs reward, and go from there.

    cim is also incorrect in saying that Crobat "just needs to come in on the right move". This sounds much more difficult than what reality is--it's more along the lines of "avoid a single move". Between how easy it is to take advantage of Rock-type moves (seriously, UU is filled with Fighting-types, guys), which discourages the free use of Stone Edge, and the fact that in the event you do mispredict, there's still a 1/5 chance the move will miss, Crobat should keep your team pretty safe from Heracross a large majority of the time.

    This, of course, assumes both players aren't incompetent, or at the very least the competent one knows the opponent is incompetent.

    --------------

    On topic,

    Mienshao should be S by now, really. Between its sheer damage ourput, its Scarf set being the absolute best revenge killer in the tier, and the fact that SubPass is so ridiculously difficult to play around, this is almost looking like a no-brainer to me.

    Crobat should stay S tier. My reasoning has already been quoted earlier in this page, so I won't go into why.

    Chandelure should stay A.

    I'm fine with Zapdos being either S or A, I could make an argument for either one.

    Gligar is not even close to A. C at best.

    Speaking of which, we really need to move away from the whole "if someone likes a Pokemon, it ends up in C or better" thing that's been going on lately. I want to see solid arguments too, not just "oh it's weak to SR so it can't be S". The definitions given in the OP are just guielines, not rules that are set in stone. That'd be dumb.

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