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Gen 5 The UU Viability Ranking Thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 1, 2012.

  1. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    Yeah, I really should move Mienshao to S-tier. It's basically considered a top tier threat by a bunch of UU players, I've gotta catchup hehe.

    Good post Pokemazter, i'm strongly considering placing Rotom-F in A (since it barely has any counters to speak of in UU) and Walrein in B, but before I do that i'd like solicit some more opinions from the community before making any overt Pokemon. There are some pretty good arguments against placing Rotom-F in, since its basically tied to Abomasnow (not necessarily a bad thing since Abomasnow is awesome, but added Fighting / Fire weak is eh). Rotom-F is B-tier at worst though.
  2. Bent1ey

    Bent1ey

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    Crobat is an actual threat to Heracross and helps you to recover tempo. Enitrely different than Gligar or Cofragigus.
  3. cim

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    I think you misunderstood me, but mainly because I misspoke and didn't elaborate. I meant you can structure your team so that Stone Edge would be a suboptimal play. It's pretty complex and situation dependent, but the short version is that Crobat + most of the Pokemon you find on HO teams these days = enough synergy to overcome Heracross with smart, risk-aware play on both sides. For example, my Triple Fighting team has two Rock resists and the rest of the team isn't weak to Stone Edge and is nowhere near being OHKOed by it. Crobat is a great primary Heracross check on that team because of how poor of a play Stone Edge otherwise is. In situations where Megahorn is suboptimal but Stone Edge is reasonably safe, you can bring in something like Slowbro. It's not so much "guess the right attack" as much as "minimize risk, maximize reward" with each particular scenario. (I hope any of this makes sense)

    Essentially, saying "Crobat can't check Heracross because it runs Stone Edge" is really short sighted and ignores that not every move can be used every turn, nor can every move be optimal to use every turn.

    Gligar and to a lesser extent Cofagrigius absolutely rob momentum from your team, and in Gligar's case, there is just not that much it can accomplish other than Stealth Rock if you need that and maybe a Toxic or two. Crobat is good not *just* because it's a good Heracross check - it's a good check to >50% of the metagame depending on the team build and specific scenario, and it does not kill momentum at all.
    --

    Mienshao should be S tier, at least for now. It's really coming into its own as a viable faster alternative to Scarf Heracross.
  4. Master of the Six Kings

    Master of the Six Kings

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    I'd like to nominate Golurk for C-tier.

    I've used Golurk in UU extensively, and found with access to EQ/Shadow Punch/Ice Punch and a Fighting type move, alongside his ever reliable Ghost with SR combination, he can be built to beat any threat in A-S Rank with the exception of Kingdra, FS Froslass, Specs Chandy, Sharpedo, Leaf Storm Roserade and Weavile (possibly Abomasnow, he's a very new threat i'm unfamilair with".

    He works very nicely on HO or with the double ghost/spikestack core as Frolass' partner, but he's also easily splashable on a team that needs a reliable SR who can handle with weaknesses, with the raw offensive power/coverage to be able to operate without a Choice item (though it's always an option).

    However, with Hail's reintroduction to UU, and his lack of ThunderPunch access, it is undeniable that Golurk cannot be A-rank in viability, and his Speed and lack of recovery outside of Drain Punch hampers his survivability enough to where i believe C-tier is his best fit. Froslass technically does his job better, though with a much different hazard/strategy and his DynamicPunch/No Guard set is nearly entirely outclassed by Machamp who can run the same set with only a couple, less common weaknesses.

    Overall, he's a very neat Pokemon who can fufill a specific role and counter most any Pokemon without a threatening STAB as your team needs it, but is let down by its mild Punch access and speed.
  5. TPO3

    TPO3 Never practice; Always perform.

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    I'd like to see Zapdos move down to A-tier. I think at the time, S-tier was definitely appropriate, but now there's just too much going against it. Snorlax has always been massively popular, but SpDef Rhyperior and Nidoqueen have been becoming more popular as of late. All three of these make Zapdos's life much harder. In addition, Abomasnow dropped down, and even though it's not that popular, any hail teams are still a big thread to Zapdos with 100% accurate blizzards and stuff. I think it was borderline before, but the growing popularity of SpDef Rhyperior, Nidoqueen, and the buffer to Hail Teams just pushes it back below the line to A-tier.
  6. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    Not sure if I agree with this. There's good arguments for both S and A Zappy, so I'm not sure.

    That said, hell yeah Mienshao in S-Rank.
    ---------------------

    Anyways, as of now, I honestly think Nidoking should be moved to C-Rank. Overall, I did a bit of testing to justify this, and overall Nidoking was just unimpressive. He is simply too frail and slow by UU standards. 85 Speed is very mediocre, and while Kingdra and Heracross have shit to mitigate that, Nidoking is too vulnerable. His fraility is also a pain, because he will usually only take out one Pokemon before he usually dies. He has done a rather miserable job at hitting hard. Because of this, Nidoqueen is, for the most part, better than King. She is slower, but Modest Queen hits harder than Timid King, and Nidoqueen also has one thing King only wishes it had: bulk. Nidoking's atrocious bulk really holds it back, but Queen has the bulk that makes the big difference when combating things like Raikou and Heracross. Let me go get some calcs to prove Nidoqueen's superiority to King.

    +1 252 SpA Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Nidoking: 266-314 (87.78 - 103.63%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
    +1 252 SpA Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs. 100 HP / 0 SpD Nidoqueen: 240-284 (69.36 - 82.08%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    (Okay, this one isn't that good)
    252 Atk Heracross Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nidoking: 264-312 (87.12 - 102.97%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO
    252 Atk Heracross Earthquake vs. 100 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 238-282 (68.78 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    In summation, Nidoking's flaws are too crippling for it to stay B-Rank, and it is, to put it bluntly, outclassed by Nidoqueen.

    I also think Machamp should be moved to C-Rank.

    Let's explain the reason in short: There really isn't much of a reason to use Machamp anymore. He's overshadowed by literally every Fighting-type in the tier. His attacks are generally weaker than that of top threats like Heracross and Mienshao. He isn't even that bulky either; he still gets 2HKO'd by most attacks. His poor Speed does not come to help either, so when it hits enough low HP, he's just a Speed bump for speedsters like Mienshao and gang. Azelf and Crobat literally murder him, and like using him as bait. With counters to Mienshao/Heraboss like Crobat and Cofag running around, Machamp struggles in this meta, and is outclassed by most Fighting-types. He should be C-Rank.

    Gligar should be C-Rank as well.

    Uhh, Gligar is ass. It's got great physical bulk, sure, but that doesn't really help it. Gligar has absolutely no offensive presence and thus is very often setup bait for things like Scrafty and Weavile, both physical attackers who don't give a fuck about Gligar. This turns Gligar into a massive momentum killer, because he just sits there and does literally nothing other than set up SR. He's also fucked over by MixShao and MixCoba to an extent. Sure, he's immune to two statuses, but that's not saying much when Gligar robs momentum from your team. He is also a complete and utter liability against hail teams, as BlizzSpam will just give him chills. Also, 'Stoise, a common spinner on hail, can Scald him. I honestly think Slowbro or Cofagrigus are better choices for my go-to physical wall. And did I not mention Gligar gets beaten by both Blastoise and Claydol alike (but not Shitmontop).

    Ninjask should be added to D-Rank.

    Ah, Ninjask. The famous Speed Boost Baton Pass strategy can work somewhat well in UU. This is Ninjask's sole niche, and he's decent at pulling it off. Of course, Ninjask is vulnerable to SR and is liable to die to Cinccino and Rhyperior, but Ninjask can still pull off that niche in the right conditions and can make or break a game with the proper playing. Sure, Ninjask is gimmicky, but he can be used to some effect.

    Add Weezing to D-Rank.

    Weezing is somewhat usable in UU as a physical wall who can take on things like Mienshao, Krookodile, and a myriad of physical attackers. However, at the same time, Weezing is a massive liability in UU because special attackers are big and plentiful. There's the rare Specs Roserade with E-Sensory, Shaymin, Raikou, Zapdos, etc. Because of this, Weezing is very vulnerable to special attackers and can often die. Cofagrigus is also often a better choice to take on Fighters and can also spinblock and shit. However, because of its massive physical defense, it has a small niche in the UU metagame, which justifies D-Rank.

    Sorry if this post is long, but,

    tl;dr: Move Nidoking to C-Rank because it's too slow and frail, also, Nidoqueen is better. Machamp should be C because it's slow and outclassed by every Fighting-type. Gligar is ass and should be C at best. Ninjask and Weezing for D-Rank because they both have small niches in UU, but are fairly mediocre otherwise.
  7. Bent1ey

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    I think Ninjask doesn't fit the bill for D, because it can actually be effective with the right support, C sounds better for it if we go by the definitions of each ran.

    I think we have discussed Machamp a bunch of times already and I don't see what has changed to justify moving it. Sure it isn't the optimal building choice for most teams, but it has a carved niche thanks to Dynamic Punch.
  8. Ernesto

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    Whether or not Nidoking is deserving of B rank, the fact of the matter is I don't like how you approach the subject. First of all, Nidoking is incredibly difficult to switch into, Offensive Snorlax for example runs the risk of being 2HKOed by Earth Power followed by Focus Blast. It's the ultimate wallbreaker, with immunities to Toxic, Thunder Wave, and Life Orb recoil, but that should be taken for granted now, shouldn't it?
    You say King is too frail. 82 / 77 is actually bulkier than Heracross man, and don't tell me it's incredibly frail in Special Defense because it's your fault if you switch it into Special moves outside of predicted Electric-type moves.
    Then you go and compare King to Queen, that's perfect, I mean I've used Queen in most of my teams since the beginning of BW2 and I love her—running enough Speed for SubSplit Chandy that aim to outrun Adamant Honchkrow makes her pretty fast, though a bit lacking in bulk. However, you're comparing them in different situations and that's just not fair. I understand that you're using the standard sets, but they're obviously gonna favour the one that invests in bulk. Nidoking can also aim to outrun SubSplit Chandy and put the rest in bulk, for example, and that would be a fairer comparison—but going to the exact opposite side. So you should really compare their prowess with the same spread, let's say 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe Modest.
    With 0 Atk IVs, King reaches 303 HP / 170 Atk (just for minimizing foul play damage) / 191 Def / 295 SpA / 186 SpD / 269 Spe and Queen reaches 321 HP / 152 Atk / 211 Def / 273 SpA / 206 SpD / 251 Spe.
    There you got a fairer comparison, and you can see that Queen is much bulkier, takes less damage from FP and confusion, but is otherwise quite slower and doesn't have nearly the same damage output. Still, both of them are decent at taking physical hits, while Queen fares a bit better against special ones.

    My point is, you can't compare them by using the standard sets, and you know why? Because they made that Queen spread standard just to give her a niche over King. So you can't say he's outclassed, given that he's the biggest reason that Queen set is popularized. Outside of that, I myself prefer Queen, but to say that King is not as useful because of her is a fallacy to my eyes. They should be in the same tier, and if the meta hadn't geared so much towards offense, I would go as far as to say they'd be deserving of high A rank, considering that not many slower things can take two hits from them and not many faster things can take one, though granted, you can't always predict perfectly with them so faster stuff are usually safer—like, suppose they are up against Empoleon, but they have Flygon on the wings; if you predict the switch and are wrong, bang, Empoleon KOs you with its uninvested Scald. If you use Earth Power as Flygon comes in, you're merely forced out and are giving up tempo, not risking to be one Pokemon down. Standard risk v. reward situation.

    Moving on, I don't care much for Gligar so if it should drop it's fine, but I can't really let go of the fact that people are calling 'momentum killer' to something that gets a slow U-turn / Baton Pass (slow uninvested, it's really fast for defensive Pokemon standards of course). Defensive Cofagrigus and Blastoise are momentum killers, Gligar definitely isn't.

    tl;dr: Nidoking should be in the same tier as Queen, neither really outclass the other to place them differently. B tier is fine, imo. Gligar, in exchange, could drop back to C or not, I couldn't care less, but it definitely doesn't kill your momentum in this fast-paced metagame.
    Magcargo likes this.
  9. Worldtour

    Worldtour aka Swamp-Rocket
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    There is no reason as to why Nidoking and Nidoqueen should be in different ranks, and definetly no reason Nidoking should be C-tier. Nidoking is a POWERHOUSE, to put it bluntly. It may not be that bulky or fast, but it does massive amounts of damage. Like, ridicoulous amounts of damage, and it deals with everything ever with its insane movepool. In a traditional sense, it is impossible to wall. It can destroy almost everything with the appropriate move. There is no way Raikou is switching in when Earth Power is a guaranteed OHKO, and Heracross doesn't enjoy Fire Blast, or Sludge Wave considering it can do 80% damage max with a Timid Nature... and this is to a Pokemon with 80/95 Special Defense! Also, I'm echoing Ernesto - Nidoqueen would mainly be better because the on-site set basically required Nidoqueen to make a niche for itself to be used over Nidoking in the first place. It is a without a doubt a nice set, but that doesn't make Nidoqueen better, especially because the two play VERY differently. If you want Nidoking to take hits you are using it wrong.

    I'd actually like to see the duo in A-Tier. Nidoking's awesome traits, such as immunity to Life Orb damage, Toxic, and Thunder Wave, make it a huge threat to the bulkiest of Pokemon. Offensive teams struggle to switch anything into Nidoking, as it can 2HKO almost the whole tier with the appropriate move at worst. Nidoqueen, on the other hand, serves as a great check to a huge multitude of Pokemon, such as Raikou, Heracross, Mienshao, and many more Pokemon. It is one of the best tanks in the tier for sure.

    Machamp... maybe it is outclassed by Fighting-types most of the time, but Dynamicpunch is the key here. It plays a huge factor in every match against Machamp, making it in general tough to gain any momentum against Machamp. Surefire counters like Crobat become shaky as they risk not hitting it and get smacked by a Stone Edge, for example, rather than getting the otherwise easy job of KOing it. If it gets a Substitute up, your going to have a rough couple of turns. It may not be a great Fighter, but it can be tough to play around. Keep it in B.

    Gligar? Well, it certaintly is one of the best Heracross counters in the tier, but there isn't much else to it. It can't really cripple the foe too badly, but its physical bulk is legitimately ridiculouly high.

    252 +1 Atk Life Orb Scrafty (+Atk) Ice Punch vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Gligar (+Def) : 76.65% - 89.82% (2 hits to KO)

    That's a +1, Adamant, Life Orbed, 4x Super Effective hit and it just survived the dang thing. Even Weavile only has an 18.75% chance to KO it with a STAB Jolly Ice Punch, which means its dead most likely but that also means it doesn't take anything from most anything else on the physical side. Roost also aids it a lot more than, say, Dusclops who wouldn't take the next hit too well since it has zero recovery. It can take on a lot of Pokemon, such as Krookodile, most Cobalion, Flygon, and more with ease by using Roost repeatedly, but the momentum loss can be huge and its easy to set up a Substitute on it. I'm fine with it being B- or C- Rank, B for its high bulk and instant recovery (a rare combination when you think about it) but C for its ability to be a liability against a multitude of Pokemon.

    Weezing is almost completely useless and doesn't deserve to be ranked at all in my opinion. Considering how it is mediocre in NU, I don't see how it is even worth using at all in UU over something else, such as, say, Cofagrigus who is just overall... a lot better.

    I support Zapdos for A-Tier, but due to all the arguments for this already I won't waste my time with my reasoning.

    EDIT: idk about Walrein and Rotom-F I haven't encountered any hail teams yet because I haven't UUed in a while
  10. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest I Love Goomy
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    Okay, went off to do some playtesting with King, and I gotta agree with these now. Yeah, I was underrating King's amazing coverage and Sheer Force+Life Orb; Sheer Force literally gives it 125 Special Attack, and although its stats ain't too stellar, it hits so damn hard that the only things that can really take onslaughts from it are Snorlax or Umbreon, who will fall if Focus Blast is used, and possibly Dusclops, who sucks ass (Like, really sucks ass). So I pretty much, for the most of it, agree with these now, so I withdraw that nomination.

    Well. Machamp's DynamicPunch is kinda annoying, I guess. It's confusion chance really plays a role, I guess. Crobat becomes rather shaky, as does Gligar. Most things only have a 50% chance to be safe on D-Punch. Not very free, I guess. Machamp still isn't that good, but DynamicPunch gives it an offensive niche to fill.

    Although I'm leaning towards C because it robs a lot of momentum and has precisely zero offensive presence.

    Still not sure as to whether Zapdos should be demoted, though I'm fine with either S or A imo.
  11. Magcargo

    Magcargo Okay
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    I would like to make arguement for a pokemon not discussed at all:Bisharp. I feel that C Rank is too low for such a powerful pokemon which is why it should be moved up to B rank from C rank. Despite relying on sucker punch to beat faster foes, it can destroy teams after a swords dance boost. Here are some calcs;

    252Atk +2 Bisharp (+Atk) Sucker Punch vs 4HP/0Def -1 Heracross (Neutral): 87% - 103% (265 - 312 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 21% chance to OHKO.
    252Atk +2 Bisharp (+Atk) Sucker Punch vs 4HP/0Def Mienshao (Neutral): 77% - 91% (210 - 248 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    252Atk +2 Bisharp (+Atk) Sucker Punch vs 252HP/0Def Lightningrod Zapdos (Neutral): 83% - 97% (319 - 376 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    252Atk +2 Bisharp (+Atk) Low Kick vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Cobalion (+Def): 87% - 102% (336 - 396 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 16% chance to OHKO.
    252Atk +2 Bisharp (+Atk) Low Kick vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Registeel (+Def): 82% - 97% (302 - 356 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    252Atk +2 Bisharp (+Atk) Iron Head vs 252HP/4Def Leftovers Umbreon (+Def): 59% - 70% (234 - 276 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    252Atk +2 Bisharp (+Atk) Iron Head vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Crobat (+Def): 62% - 73% (232 - 274 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    With some hazard support, bisharp can easily defeat all of it's checks and counters. While it is weak to fighting, do not be fooled as bisharp is a very powerful pokemon.

    Also, I would like to add Glaceon, Vanilluxe, Tauros, Zangoose and Gallade to the untested tier. These five pokemon can prove to be effective, but there niche is undiscovered.

    Also ambipom should be moved down to D Rank. It is outclassed by so many thing such as Mienshao (who is stronger),Cincinno (who hits consistantly harder) and to the lesser extent, Tauros and Zangoose (who are way more powerful and have just as good coverage).
  12. Cesterp

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    Mkay. Bisharp is a no. Defensively, it's the worst piece of crap that has ever existed. Offensively, its STABs are awful in UU, and it is super hard-pressed to even find a time to set up. Yeah, it's good with Sucker Punch, but Honchkrow does Sucker Punch 2x better and has Moxie to make it a very scary thing. And seriously. What on earth does it switch in to? It's weak to fire, fighting, ground and tends to be OHKO'd by powerful neutral hits. Sure, if you get a sub and an SD off, it becomes something relatively scary. That can't kill Heracross. Or Scrafty. Or Mienshao. Or any given steel type that outspeeds. Or anything with Will-O-Wisp. Oh, and it dies to other priority that isn't ESpeed from Arcanine. It's too frail, has awful offensive STABs, and doesn't hit hard enough off the bat to be worth B-tier. Yeah, it works with some support.
    Oh, and it's also ultra-super-mega hard countered by Cobalion if it doesn't have both a Sub and an SD off. I just like when there are ultra-super-mega hard counters to stuff, so I figured I'd bring it up.

    I believe out C-tier description is something like "crippling flaws that prevent them from executing their strategy completely." Bisharp just about fits that description. Against the hordes of offensive teams that exist, Bisharp just has a really tough time switching in on attacks, and it really needs more than one turn (in which your opponent switches to a check/counter) to become a team-wrecking machine.

    Glaceon probably should be added somewhere, it has a powerful-arse Blizzard and can be scary. Vanilluxe... has no movepool, and if you want a powerful Blizzspammer from a lower tier, you'll want to be using Glaceon. It would probably be added to D-tier, but adding a list of ineffective stuff doesn't make sense.

    Tauros and Zangoose... probably not worth mentioning. Normal types are really hard to fit on any team due to sub-standard offensive and defensive typing. Tauros is powerful and frail, but we have a ton of other powerful, frail attackers that outclass it through better coverage, better base stats, and overall just more ability to be used. Zangoose is unique, but unique isn't always a good thing. The only set I can see being even close to viable in UU is Swords Dance with Quick Attack... but Sableye, Mismagius, and Chandelure are common enough that instantly losing to them can be considered a crippling flaw that prevents Zangoose from using its intended strategy consistently. A low C-tier might be appropriate... but I still think it's outclassed enough to not quite be worth mentioning.

    Gallade might work. It needs to be used defensively, because it's way too slow to be an offensive threat. I don't really have an opinion one way another on Gallade as I've never seen it nor used it, so I'll let others say something about it.

    Ahh... Ambipom. Has been brought up already.
    To quote myself and DestinyUnknown from earlier in this thread when I was a silly newb and didn't know as much-
    Those two should just about cover Ambipom.
  13. Magcargo

    Magcargo Okay
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    Well everything above counters my arguements, but bisharp is an excellent heracross lure. Sub on the switch and as it cc's you then swords dance and ko with sucker punch.

    Also, while this may sound odd, i would like to nomiminate claydol up to C Rank. I know that it sucks but has a niche of being a rapid spinner that is resistent to SR and spikes. I'm fine with it in D rank so you don't have to move it up.

    Bisharp can set up on pokemon like registeel, umbreon, defensive cofagrigus (watch out for will o wisp) and cresselia. Also I've swept many team with bisharp thanks to it's resistances. Also 65/100/70 defenses aren't to shabby, allowing it to take a hit or two.


    Also, vanilluxe should not added.Niether should tauros. And I almost forgot medicham. Medicham should be a low B rank/High C rank for one reason: the ability to form an offensive core with heracross to beat each others checks and counters.
  14. LionKingMax

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    +2 252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Heracross: 265-312 (88.03 - 103.65%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

    It's not even a guaranteed OHKO, you even calc'd it yourself.

    and why are you comparing Ambipom to Mienshao and etc? Mienshao does a ton more as a team poke, yes, but unless you're a scarfed Shao, Ambipom will obliterate it like it's nothing. Tauros is slower, Zangoose is slower, speed tie with Cincinno AKA ambipom crushes all 3 of them both in power and in utility. Nothing can Fake Out U-turn Taunt like Ambi can in all of them.
  15. Magcargo

    Magcargo Okay
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    [
    Forgot to mention SR is required. Also, the reason i'm comparing them is that all of the pokemon hit harder than ambipom. Ambipom can hit hard,but can't hit excessively hard.
    Also Sableye can taunt as well, Fake out is unreliable and gives switch in opprtunities to Rhyperior and bulky ghost types wall Ambipom all day.

    252Atk Life Orb Technician Ambipom (+Atk) Beat Up vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Sableye (+Def): 51% - 61% (156 - 186 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    252Atk Life Orb Technician Ambipom (+Atk) Low Kick vs 252HP/4Def Leftovers Solid Rock Rhyperior (+Def): 38% - 45% (169 - 199 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

    While this is a 2HKO, Sableye can burn the monkey and recover stall. Rhyperior takes nothing from low kick and can EQ for some serious damage. It's not a bad pokemon, but it is often outshined by Mienshao who also has good speed, but much more raw power allowing it to use items like choice scarf.
  16. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    Ahem. Gonna give in my arguments here.

    Bisharp is far from "bad". Its defensive typing does offer it some pretty nasty weaknesses alright, but it still has its fair share of resistances with give it some to come in on Snorlax, Azelf (unless they catch you and click FB), Crobat, etc. It's typing isn't exactly great defensively, but it's alright. Also, I wouldn't call Dark "awful" STAB. SubSD Bisharp can destroy Mew, Azelf, OTR Cofag (which is definitely something), etc. It also has enough power to score a nice 2HKO on Heracross and Mienshao (the two most relevant of the Fighters in UU), or even a KO after Spikes, which you probably will be running, because Spikes are necessary everywhere. I find it to still have advantages over Krow, like some resistances, and SD to put the smack off the bat, etc. The SD/Sub/Sucker Punch/Low Kick set has done me well when I use it. And priority isn't exactly common in UU bar...lol Fake Out and Espeed. Then again, of course it has its flaws like Mass Fighting weakness, etc, and predictability, so you need to play mindgames. I could argue for either B-Rank or C-Rank, but I honestly don't know where Bisharp should be. But as stated, this is coming from a person who uses Bisharp+Mismagius cores on the ladder. (Also, Dark / Steel is miles better defensively than Ice / Grass and Bug / Flying)

    And yeah, don't add Vanilluxe at all. You said it; it's irrelevant and there's no reason to use it over Rotom-F or Abomastrongth. Medicham, Gallade, and the others bar Zang should have somewhere as a ranking IMO. Haven't tried them out yet.

    Claydol is something I have no opinion on. I know how ass it is but it can be useful as a spinner who doesn't mind hazards, and also has a decent support movepool to boot. It can be useful if you're for it in the long run, or if its typing benefited my team in some way. But it's prolly borderline C-D-tier-definitely way more useful than Shittyclops, that's for sure.

    As for Ambipom, people who know me will be surprised that I'm saying this, but it's honestly not that bad. Technician Fake Out is pretty strong, and can hit an opponent for some good damage. If you predict a switch-in, catch them with Low Kick or Beat Up. Pretty good for mindgames with the opponent (My Chandelure got its ass handed to one by switching in on Beat Up). Beat Up, also, quite imfamously, 2HKO's Cofag and to a lesser extent Slowbro. It's also a very useful move for Lead Azelf and Froslass. Low Kick can catch Rhyperior and also keep consistent power on lighter things like Scrafty and Empoleon. Also, why use Beat Up Ambipom if Weavile is stronger? Well, Ambipom attracts Ghost-types, so it has opportunities to surprise them with it. No competent player is keeping their Slowbro or Cofag in against Weavile. I'd say Ambipom still has its uses, although generally outclassed by Cinccino, Mienshao, Weavile, and the others, it's worthy of staying in C.

    And 300th post, yeah.
  17. RabidChipmunk

    RabidChipmunk

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    I've actually been using a UU team with Bisharp on the ladder as of late, so I can now give my opinion on Bisharp without resorting entirely to groundless theorymon.

    Bisharp has three major issues that stand in it's way and prevent from doing... well, much of anything, really. First of all, as you said, he's 4x weak to Fighting, and considering that UU is basically run by Fighting-types at this point in time, that's not something you ever want to have. The Steel type is one of those types that's so awesome in and of itself that you can slap it on anything and it'll probably benefit from it, but one of the exceptions to that rule is combining it with the Dark-type. Put simply, Bisharp's typing is horrible. It's 4x weak to Fighting, as already established, and it's forced to run low base power moves as STAB options.

    This leads me to my second issue, in that Bisharp has to rely too much on Sucker Punch to sweep. Sucker Punch is a nice utility move to have, but relying on it for your primary STAB move is an exercise in needless frustration, as every turn Bisharp isn't behind a sub is a paranoid guessing game. Admittedly, the mind games go both ways, but as I've said before, why bother playing mind games at all when there are far more safe and consistent options that you could use instead (i.e. Heracross)?

    Speaking of subs, this brings me to my third issue, and one that I have with several other Pokemon like Cofagrigus as well, and that is two-turn setup Pokemon are balls. If Bisharp wants to sweep, he needs to have a SD and a Substitute ready to go. Well good luck getting both of those things, because when you're as slow as Bisharp and have such a horrible typing, it's not hard for teams to find a Pokemon to send out on you while you try to SD and keep you from getting your sub. This, in turn, leads to the mind game situation I mentioned before, and unless your Dr. Manhattan, good luck again getting those predictions right every time.

    In summary, Bisharp's niche in UU is extremely limited, and C-Tier is the best place for it. I can't wait until this thing drops to RU; maybe he'll have a happier home their :(


    So at the risk of turning this post into a book, I'd like to take a moment to bring up discussion on a Pokemon most people seem to have forgot about: Weavile. More precisely, I don't believe Weavile should be A-Tier. It's modestly impressive base 120 attack is let down hard by it's lack of any powerful STAB moves (most powerful physical STAB is Ice Punch, smh), so it pretty much has to get a SD up in order to sweep, and when you take into account Weavile's atrocious typing and legendary frailty, when is it ever going to get the chance?

    So what do you guys think? Is Weavile really deserving of A-Tier?
  18. Magcargo

    Magcargo Okay
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    Well Ambipom is certainly C tier with all the evidence provided. As for weavile, it's pretty bad in the choiced scarfed fighting meta. On one hand, Scarf cross will destroy this thing. On the other hand, once weavile sets up, it's only going to rip apart teams lacking a fighting or fire type (which is rare) . Also weavile gets destroyed by common pokemon. The #1 most used pokemon, heracross, loves to switch in and gain a free moxie boost or to set up a free swords dance. Also, some steel types like Esca wall weavile thanks to their good bulk. Also, as Rabidchipmunk said, it has a poor defensive typing ,low defenses, and weak stabs. In the end, I'm gonna say weavile should go down to B Rank or even C rank, although the latter is too low.
  19. spuds4ever

    spuds4ever

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    I don't know about Bisharp really. It's good in theory, but having used it quite a lot in the past, I can't say I've been incredibly impressed. Firstly, it is skill-intensive so having to rely on being able to out-predict your opponent consistently is not a good place to start. Secondly, while it can check things like mew, OTR cofagrigus, it can't safely switch in due to that x4 fighting weakness. On top of that, Will-o-wisp is a standard move on other sets they run which also screws it over. Thirdly, it needs 2 turns of set up to really function as has been mentioned and doesn't even really have an easy time doing it either. Pretty much the only things it can set up on in the top 20 are defensive roserade (bearing in mind you won't actually know if it's offensive or not from turn 1) and umbreon. It just really has too many flaws to justify a B position in my view.

    I also agree with weavile moving down to B. It's fast as and if it gets a boost you're usually dead, but it can basically switch in on nothing bar frosslass and setting up is extremely risky due to lack of any bulk. On top of this, pokemon like scarf heracross, darm, sharpedo, and so on are popular and can easily turn weavile into a momentum loss. It has a noticeable niche, being one of the fastest Choice banders in the tier (only second to Crobat) and being pretty difficult to wall as far as physical attackers go in UU, but again, too many flaws to justify a higher tier.

    On a more positive note: a pokemon I would like to put forward for promotion is Empoleon. I'm looking at mostly it's sub-petaya set which can absolutely demolish teams (especially offensive ones) with just one turn of set up (which it can quite easily grab with 11 resistances and good bulk) I think it makes for one of the best cleaners in the tier, not suffering the "I can't OHKO it, now I'm screwed"syndrome of sharpedo or the hard counter syndrome of things like moxiecross (cofagrigus for example). On top of this, due to its limited number of switchins, it makes a really good support sweeper too and even runs a decent defensive set.
  20. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest I Love Goomy
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    I'm not so sure about Bisharp tbh. I use it a lot with mixed results. I could argue for either B or C, but either way, he's still a decent Pokemon. Not amazing by any means, but still a pretty good Pokemon in the right hands. But of course those flaws do hurt it. I honestly have no opinion on this.

    Anyways, I honestly am going to have to agree with moving Weavile down to B. Ice / Dark is a horrible defensive typing, with so many damn weaknesses it's not even funny. That Mass Fighting weakness ain't too good either, with ScarfShao and ScarfCross ruining its day, and both of those are S-Rank threats. I guess SD is cool, but as previously said, low BP moves do kinda let it down. Its fraility does not come to help its case either, so it's hard pressed to set up. CB is cool and can trap shit, I guess. It's a fine example of a high B mon-it can't sweep through everything, but it has a given offensive niche.

    Ooo, Empoleon. Cool Pokemon. I love SubPetaya Empy 'cause it can destroy shit, pretty damn good sweeper. It's got pretty good coverage, nice typing to set up with, and good enough power. It's not frail like Sharpedo/Bisharp/Honchkrow, not is it exactly hard countered (Heracross/Krookodile), as said. A defensive set is also pretty cool too, as is Specs. Pretty good Pokemon. I can concede with him belonging in A-Rank.
  21. Ace Emerald

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    Weavile is not a Pokemon that lives by its defensive typing. It really has no impact, because lets be honest it couldn't take a neutral Mienshao Hi Jump Kick, x4 makes no difference. Weavile is great because of that offensive typing and coverage. Dark, while plagued by low base power, is a great offensive type because none of the main physical walls resist it, and Cofagrigus and Slowbro even sport a weaknesses. You're basically relying on your (non-Slowbro) bulky Water-type to tank hits, and they cannot do that forever. Now give it a great second STAB in Ice, and a coverage move capable of dealing with Steel-types and you have a monster. A high risk monster, but a monster nonetheless. It takes a little support, as is acceptable of an A rank, but it can easily tear through a lot of the metagame.
  22. Magcargo

    Magcargo Okay
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    Weavile is defeated by common pokemon such as Heracross. It is also afraid of residual damage and needs a rapid spinner to get rid of rocks. it's stab moves are so weak that evire hit's harder with T-punch. So many common Fighting, fire and to the lesser extent steel types will force it out. Access to swords dance is a boon but weavile will often find it hard to set up. It's not easy to stay alive either as low defenses mean that even neutral hits will take it down.

    I don't have an opinion on empoleon since I've never used it. I'll try the sub + petya berry set.
  23. Ace Emerald

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    I will reiterate. Weavile is not a denfesive Pokemon. Yeah, Scarf Cross can generally beat him. So can Scarf Chandelure and a lot of scarf Pokemon. Neither wants to switch into an all out attacker set. Getting revenge killed isn't a fault of the Pokemon, almost every sweeper is subject to it. Weavile deserves to be A rank because there aren't many Pokemon that can switch into him without worry. Bronzong or a bulky Water-type are your best bets, and they can't take repeated Night Slashes or a small bit of support, as is defined acceptable in the definition of A rank. He may be a little tricky to get in, but double switches and switches after a KO are the only way to bring in many frail, powerful Pokemon, like the S ranked Mienshao. It isn't hard to grab an SD boost, the threat of CB forces out many common Pokemon like Crobat, Zapdos, etc. You don't even need to run a rapid spinner, just keep the offensive momentum and stifle their SR user, and if rocks do go up it's not like he's deadweight, just crippled. Considering the small amount of support he takes and his sheer sweeping prowess, I again stand by my analysis of Weavile as A rank.
  24. cim

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    blah blah blah i invented subpetaya empoleon and he is really frustrating in UU.

    he worked in DPP OU very well because (1) few > base 90 Scarfers were popular and (2) every counter to surf / gk empoleon was generally weak to pursuit and toxic spikes. In BW UU, Scarf Flygon and Mienshao destroy Modest Empoleon, Snorlax needs to be weakened, and there are a lot of reasons to run both Ice Beam and Grass Knot. (You can't easily beat Suicune and Roserade, or any WG core)

    also, please stop using hydro pump sub empoleon, please, seriously don't, that's terrible, anyone who says it's a good idea has never used sub empoleon

    that said i really like him as a defensive / specs user, and the subpetaya set is "good but not great" so i'd be fine with b or a rank
  25. Magcargo

    Magcargo Okay
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    Weavile requires a TON of support to be effective. First you have to weaken the foes Fire, Fighting and Steel types so it can sweep. You also need spikes and SR support to make sure that weavile obtains those KO's. Also, because crobot is faster than weavile, it can heavily dent it with brave bird and weavile can only hit it first with the weak ice shard. Also, the rare Technitop can KO it with mach punch. Also brozong only takes 34.3% - 40.8% from a life orb night slash and can retaliate with a powerful STAB gyroball. Two useless abilities don't help weavile either.

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