The UU Viability Ranking Thread

Discussion in 'BW UU' started by PK Gaming, Oct 1, 2012.

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  1. Magcargo 2

    Magcargo 2 ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つDruddigon
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    I feel that C-rank is a bit too low for golurk. Golurk is the premier counter to physical fighting types because of its resistence to stone edge and his ghost typing. Golurk only loses to virizion and scrafty (who I believe is A-rank, but I will explain that later). Also, golurk has a big niche in the tier because he has the ability to setup SR and spinblock at the same time. He has good coverage with his attacks, only being walled by gligar. He also has the ability to 2HKO physically defensive slowbro. His 89/80/80 defenses aren't shabby and allow hit to tank hits from the likes of cobalion. All in all, golurk deserves to be B-rank imo.
  2. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming The truth is in my hands
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    Gligar down from B-rank ==> C-rank
    Mew down from S-rank ==> A-rank

    Gligar: I got caught up in the "counters Heracross & Fighting-types hype" when I initially bumped it up to B-rank, but I know better now. There's no doubt it in my mind that Gligar isn't B-tier. It has trouble countering pretty much every other Fighting-type in the tier, bar Heracross (who sometimes has his way with Gligar's that don't have Aerial Ace) and generally isn't a very good Pokemon.

    Mew: It's not the uncounterable super god we all thought it was, but Mew is still really good. Not much else to other than its surprisingly hard to fit Mew into offensive teams.

    Any more thoughts on moving Togekiss to S-tier?
  3. hilarious

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    if s tier=bannable tier then yes i support togekiss for s-tier. it bird poops on the majority of defensive cores and even defensive teams so yeah sure stier go for it!!!
  4. Nine Inch Punch

    Nine Inch Punch

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    If Rotom-Frost is B rank soley for hail (which i'd imagine it is) then why is jynx not even mentioned? Lovely kiss, Nasty Plot, Dry Skin, high speed and special attack make it (I think) very good... especially in hail. It has the problem of relying on sub to take hits and some of its favorite moves (Blizzard w/o hail, Focus Blast, and Lovely Kiss) have lower accuracy, but I still think it's a solid B-tier threat.
  5. SmashBrosBrawl

    SmashBrosBrawl

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    Sharpedo shouldnt be A-Rank. No way to boost its offense, reliance on 80 power base stab moves, no bulk to switch in or take a hit making it EXTREMELY vulnerable to priority, needs protect to get that speed boost etc. In all honesty i'd rather use the bulkier, stronger and with acces to dragon dance and superpower crawdaunt. Sharpedo is really too overhyped. I cant see it in the same rank as Heracross, Roserade, Chandelure, Victini and other great mons. B-Rank or even C-Rank would suit it better.
  6. Warb

    Warb

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    If your opponent gets up SR, at least 1 layer of spikes and has weakened your bulkier pokes for a bit, sharpedo WILL sweep you.
    Sure, priority poops on it, but without that weakness, it'd be literally unstoppable once the conditions are cleared. And its setup conditions aren't as atrocious as other frail sweepers'.
    Also, Crawdaunt's "superior" bulk is still not good enough to take hits (63 base HP and 85 base Def are not good in UU) and it needs 3 (THREE) DDs to outspeed Scarf 90s (+2 Crawdaunt reaches 458 speed, scarf P-Z has 459). That thing is harder to set up than Weavile, while Sharpedo needs nothing more than 1 or 2 turns of protecting to reach dangeruous levels. Speed Boost matters THAT much, because it generates free setup without wasting turns (look at Blaziken)
  7. Machi

    Machi

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    He has immediate power helped especially by the STAB coverage of his moves, if you notice a lot of the mons you mentioned are quite easy prey to Sharpedo either because of SE coverage or just having low defense, which allow him to sweep the tier with ease provided very little support. By minimal SR damage already helps him to facilitate a very clean late game sweep, you can go for spikes but for most part I find SR already helps enough to help him with sweeping course it does depend on the team but from experience most teams are not THAT defensively oriented while bulky offense teams tend to have issues with Sharpedo's coverage hitting them hard.

    Protect is far more useful than you give credit since it allows him to scout as well as provide protection in netting a second speed boost against scarfers if he is already in play with one boost, at two boosts none of the scarvers will be able to outspeed him. Put another way its a far more reliable move in helping him set up so to speak. Incidentally, it also protects him against the rare fake out.

    Moreover outside of priority Sharpedo can be quite difficult to revenge kill, which to be honest isn't all that common or quite easily stopped, due to speed boost making scarf users quite shaky depending on whether they've already allowed him to net a second boost or not.

    I'm more confused as to why you'd even mention Crawdaunt since even with a Dragon Dance he is quite easily revenge killed by scarf users due to his low speed. In addition has difficulty setting up in this metagame because opportunities are few given his typing defensively is actually disadvantageous, at least with protect Sharpedo gains a safe set and efficient way of creating a set up opportunity. Late game sweeping is his forte and can easily hold his ground against the other offensive mons in that tier once you see him in action. He may seem off putting at first because of his lack of ability to boost his power but Dark/Water coverage as well as high base Atk you'd be surprised how much immediate power he has, and Earthquake just rounds off his coverage well. His frailty is quite negligible as most things won't be able to touch him due to his speed. Best part about Sharpedo is that unlike the other late game sweepers he doesn't need to rely on a scarf to outspeed and sweep giving him the flexibility to select moves making walling him late game quite difficult.
  8. Celever

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    12:33 celeverr !usage hitmonlee, UU
    12:33 TIBot #70 in UU | Usage: 1.46224%

    As you can see Hitmonlee is definitely used enough in this tier to deserve a rank, and it is very good late game. However it is quite easily walled in UU, so I am going to say B:

    B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outclassed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

    Heracross is a better late-game fighting type sweeper, who is A rank, so it fits the last category. He fulfills an offensive niche by being fast and strong with the endure + liechi set, but that means he is taken out by priority. He can also run normal gem fake out, substituting a little added power for a little added bulk, once again fulfilling a niche of slightly weak but incredibly fast, fitting onto a hazard team very well.
  9. SmashBrosBrawl

    SmashBrosBrawl

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    And i can say this about any attacker. The difference is that A-Rank attackers like Darmanitan, Victini or Heracross need very little support other than probably a layer of rocks to destroy teams with their stab moves. Sharpedo isnt fit to their rank.
  10. Reaver12

    Reaver12

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    Speed boost, coupled with good attacking stats and decent STABs make Sharpedo A Rank. The thing that sets him apart is in the late game, if you let him come in and KO a weakened wall it's pretty much over. He'll protect as your scarfer (who would have saved you from other A and S rank threats most likely) tries to KO, then proceed to outspeed and win the match. There are very few things that can sweep as easily as Sharpedo. He can't do it from turn one of course, but nothing can. Let your walls take some hits OR rack up hazard damage and watch yourself fall to Sharpedo.

    What's keeping him from S-Rank are his low power STABs, and weakness to priority (despite the fact that it's pretty rare, discounting Fake Out which is easily blocked by Protect). Speed Boost is that good. Remember it took Blaziken, who was once NU as I recall, all the way to Ubers.

    EDIT: Not in any way saying Sharpedo is close to S-Rank. Just saying the flaws that you've pointed out are what keep him IN A-Rank.
  11. hilarious

    hilarious

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    one major problem with pedo is that a few pokemon you think that should crumple to it end up living like gligar and thats a problem when you have 14 base defenses. i toyed around with ice beam on physical pedo but it was really only good when hydregion was uu on po, wasn't good anywhere else (unless you are really flygon gligar weak i guess). generally 1 spikes + sr is all pedo needs to kill most offensive things (heracross, mienshao, opposing pedo) but a few bulkier things can survive (machamp) and kill back so i dunno if sharpedo is a it is barely a rank.
  12. Magcargo 2

    Magcargo 2 ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つDruddigon
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    Hitmonlee doesn't deserve to be ranked. It is completely outclassed by mienshao, who is faster and stronger, and faces competition with heracross. Usage means nothing. At best hitmonlee should be low D-rank.

    About Sharpedo, it is best used as a late game cleaner, and many things like mienshao are screwed over by protect.

    Oh and this is my 300th post so yah.
  13. Celever

    Celever

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    Lets see...
    Hitmonlee has earthquake and blaze kick.
    It doesn't take consistent life orb damage.
    The attack boost on the liechi berry set makes it stronger than mienshao, and without the boost a normal gem fake out has it 5 base stat points below mienshao, while it is much faster.
    After unburden Hitmonlee is way faster than mienshao. Even faster than crobat, in fact.

    And I put the usage there because we're not going to give, say, watchog a rank because it is never used in UU, it could have a niche though you never know. (It was just a random example, I'm not saying he should have a rank if you didn't understand.)
    Also LOW D-RANK? You should keep out of business if you have no idea what you are on about!
    "Reserved for Pokemon who are simply not very effective in the current metagame."
    But Hitmonlee IS effective. And you wanted it closer to:
    "Reserved for Pokemon that are aggressively mediocre. The worst of the worst."
    What? The only thing there is dusclops, which, by the way, is taken out easily by hitmonlee. I mean you seriously have no idea what you are on about with hitmonlee.

    Also "Oh and this is my 300th post so yah."
    Did you typo yay? Because that sounds like it was supposed to be a point when I already have more than double your post count. And even if it was a point (it isn't by the way) most of your posts have just been countered by someone who knows pokemon better and the post is pointless (like lol D rank heatmor).
    Just to let you know post-count doesn't matter.

    Oh, and next post is my 700th post so yah.
  14. silenced

    silenced

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    Just to back up a point, by no means is hitmonlee D-Rank. It can afford to run an adamant nature for one thing, as after an unburden boost, it will outspeed everything, including jolly scarf mienshao, arguably the best scarfer (and fastest scarfer of the best) that there is. An adamant nature, freedom to pick its moves after boosting, and perfect neutral coverage depending on moves picked, is pretty damn good for a physical sweeper.

    C-rank is probably fairer for hitmonlee. It cannot stand priority except for fake out (since endure can reactivate at 1 hp, thus negating being revenged by fake-out users). It would also be preferable to remove/weaken bulky flying types (stone miss helps, but more reliabilty would be better), bulky psychics (mew and slowbro being the most notable) and some ghosts (especially sableye and cofagrigus removed). Once conditions are met though, its sweep is not being stopped.

    Edit: Would agree with togekiss for S-Tier. Reasons have already been stated, so not going to rehash. One thing of interest is that togekiss does get access to bodyslam making faster ground types and (when released), DW abilities for raikou and zapdos still not safe to switch in.
  15. Celever

    Celever

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    I'd just like to note the normal gem fake out set also makes it extremely fast, and has a bit more bulk with the expense of being a little bit weaker. It could help if you don't like the priority.

    Also blaze kick can be for the flying type more than focus miss, the main issue for hitmonlee is ghost types... but then thats the same with all UU fighting types!

    I also agree togekiss for S rank, it is incredibly bulky, fairly powerful but serene grace means it is almost definitely taking out or weakening 2 pokemon severely on your opponent's team!

    Also woot! 700th post when I joined 6 months ago... I post too much don't I...
  16. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest all hail Greninja
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    Ahem.

    In regards to Hitmonlee, I think C-Rank fits him perfectly. Hitmonlee has Unburden, which allows it to be a fast sweeper, which while it struggles with Ghosts and Psychics, Krook/Weavile can be optimal teammates. Hitmonlee is deadly in the right conditions though, and EndureReversal+Liechi can also be a funny gimmick. It's outclassed, sure, but that's C-Rank.

    "Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the higher ranks"

    Sounds like Hitmonlee to me.

    Regarding Sharpedo, it should not in any way be B-Rank or even C-Rank. Sharpedo is fucking broken/ one of the best late-game cleaners around. With hazards support, Sharpedo can decimate whole teams to pieces. His STABs have good coverage together, iirc only missing out on Ferroseed, who sucks in UU, and Empoleon, who is decimated by Earthquake. His Speed can reach nigh unmatchable levels, and it's relatively easy to get fast. 95 Special Attack is usable as well, so specially offensive can work as well, and mixed too. If Sharpedo had more power, I wouldn't hesistate to say it was S-Rank. But as is, Sharpedo is the perfect example of an A-Rank Pokemon.

    I already spoke on my opinion on Togekiss.
  17. Warb

    Warb

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    Virizion and Hitmontop are the only pokes that can switch into physical Sharpedo, anything else risks getting 2HKO'd by its dual stabs or EQ.

    Yeah Hitmolee is scary, especially agains offensive teams without many bulky pokes. It can even use Mach Punch to deal with opposing frail priority users which is a big plus (because usually Rock + Fighting is enough)
  18. LonelyNess

    LonelyNess PK FLASH
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    Uh... what? The list of Pokemon that can avoid a 2HKO from Crunch or Waterfall is far larger than just Virizion / Hitmontop. Physically defensive Zapdos doesn't even get 2HKO'd by Waterfall with Stealth Rock. Not to mention Suicune or Milotic or any other bulky water not named Slowbro. There are plenty of things that can avoid dying from two consecutive Sharpedo hits... and pretty much any return attack is going to kill, easily. Sharpedo is good, really good in fact. But uncounterable? Hardly.
  19. Magcargo 2

    Magcargo 2 ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つDruddigon
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    I honestly don't see what hitmonlee has over other uu fighting types, but since many people want to put it in C-rank, then put him into C-Rank. Sucker punch allows him to hurt ghost, Double Edge does good damage to phychic types and umburden can make him a great revenge killer. he gets close combat too, which gives him an edge over mienshao.
  20. hilarious

    hilarious

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    fact checker!

    252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Zapdos: 142-169 (37.07 - 44.12%) -- 67.19% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    which is increased even more with the crit chance and flinch chance to something like 80% or so. so no zapdos cannot actually switch in sharpedo most of the time with sr up, but it can almost always without sr up.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 148-175 (37.65 - 44.52%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    which might look nice for milotic but you have to remember most bulky waters can only 2hko back with scald (with lo and sr damage and shitty sharpedo defenses) so milotic will have to recover and hope for no defense drops which after two turns has like a 40% chance to happen, factor in crits and milotic loses half the time if she switches in.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Crunch vs. 248 HP / 196 Def Milotic: 172-203 (43.76 - 51.65%) -- 69.53% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock


    and she's pretty much a goner if she tries to switch in crunch without maxed out physical defense as seen here.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Suicune: 156-185 (45.74 - 54.25%) -- 97.66% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    so offensive cune is out and most people i know consider even offensive cune a bulky water but she cannot really counter sharpedo at all.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 117-138 (28.96 - 34.15%) -- 7.62% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    she's a pretty much safe bet though.

    however all of these guys can probably be considered good checks at least, even slowbro because slowbro will never get ohkod by crunch because slowbro always is at like 85%+ or something like that (unless you are talking specs bro, thats different).

    you don't really NEED to counter sharpedo just have a few sturdy roadblocks and he won't sweep, not to mention extremespeed arcanine and even sucker punch from honchkrow can do at least 70 or 80% to sharpedo.

    The fact check conclusion? Given the scenarios you laid out (even with SR for Zapdos) LonelyNess some of what you said is at best unlikely but only because minor easy to forget details like critical hits and flinches and other secondary effects. you also were quite general about the specific sets of the Pokemon in question - offensive Suicune is vastly different from Crocune. Given this I rate the quoted statement half true to mostly true!
  21. LonelyNess

    LonelyNess PK FLASH
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    in what world is 248 HP / 196 Def Milotic even remotely close to being the standard?

    or that wonky Zapdos spread, either....

    or non-defensive Suicune. -_-
  22. hilarious

    hilarious

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    the honko damage calc world

    but you have a point so i redid the calcs

    252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 142-168 (37.07 - 43.86%) -- 56.64% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    again, factor in the crits and flinches and zapdos is pretty much dead 3 out of 4 times.

    these are the milotic spreads according th efebruary stats

    Spreads |
    | Bold:252/0/252/4/0/0 15.973% |
    | Bold:248/0/252/0/0/8 13.188% |
    | Calm:252/0/0/4/252/0 6.283% |
    | Calm:248/0/196/0/56/8 5.507% |
    | Calm:252/0/4/0/252/0 4.543% |
    | Bold:252/0/252/0/4/0 3.242% |
    | Other 51.265%

    quite inconclusive although they lean towards most people using max max physical; i did put up a calc for that anyways.

    for suicune these are the spreads
    | Spreads |
    | Bold:252/0/252/0/4/0 25.085% |
    | Bold:252/0/252/4/0/0 22.510% |
    | Modest:252/0/0/252/4/0 8.668% |
    | Bold:252/0/252/0/0/4 6.911% |
    | Timid:0/0/0/252/4/252 4.545% |
    | Bold:252/0/4/252/0/0 2.730% |
    | Other 29.551%

    you are pretty much correct almost everyone uses at least max hp although the biggest section is "other" still. and i did put in calcs for both max max and 0/0 already. here is max hp and 0 def

    252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Suicune: 156-185 (38.61 - 45.79%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    cannot technically counter unless it has hp grass or hp electric because if it comes in on crunch it will die to the next two while only being able to 2hko back. still it can pretty much do enough damage to end sharpedos sweep and at least kill off both of them together probably while having the great burn chance from scald (somewhat negated by crunch's defense drop chance however).

    and lastly may i say most of the time sharpedo uses waterfall not crunch so these bulky waters aren't quite as shaky as they may seem which is why i gave you a "half true to mostly true" rating!
  23. LonelyNess

    LonelyNess PK FLASH
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    Alright then yes, if you use bad sets / spreads that are 2HKO'd by Sharpedo for your argument, then Sharpedo gets 2HKOs on the aformentioned Pokemon.
  24. Boorego

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    I don't agree with togekiss being promoted. I'm assuming the reasoning for his promotion is his combination of bulk and power as well as the ability to abuse flinch hax to come out on top of some would be checks. But Mew has a similiar thing going on(minus the flinch hax) and was just DEMOTED to a, heck in comparison to mew togekiss is slower,sr weak, unable to go mixed thanks to a lack of psyshock-like attacks and doesn't even have the luxury of being able to be customized to get past any of his checks that can't relibly be flinch-haxed to death(zapdos,etc).

    I don't see how air slash hax and a slighty better typing(which still not that great, having issues with being weak to rock, electric and ice) could be promote an A rank mon to S. Especially considering that togekiss isn't exactly the fastest pokemon in the tier and has a lot of dangerous pokemon outspeeding him.

    Keep Kiss in A.
  25. Rohail

    Rohail Vaporeon <3
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    I would like to bring back my point of moving Tangrowth to B-Rank. This is because Tangrowth is REALLY bulky on the physical side and is capable of countering many threats; such as Rhyperior, Swampert, Sharpedo, and almost every other physical pokemon that doesn't have a SE STAB to use against Tangy (some of which it can still survive o.o).

    Oh and remember talking about Cofagrigus moving to S-Rank? The reason we all have already discussed, if anyone disagrees then please go ahead and give a reason to why? Just throwing this back out there :l

    That is all :)
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