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Gen 5 The UU Viability Ranking Thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 1, 2012.

  1. PTJon7

    PTJon7

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    Agreed: Qwilfish to B-Rank

    Also, is it pretty much consensus that Rhyperior and Raikou are both A-Rank?
  2. akuto

    akuto

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    I know I'm a newbie but I'm just going to go ahead and nominate Gallade for B-rank

    With an outstanding movepool and access to moves like trick and such gallade is just a monster disguised as as a gardevoir's boyfriend. it can reliably come into a scarf herracross who's moxie boosting with CC live a hit and OHKO it with psycho cut standard scarf herracross +1 vs standard SD gallade 73% - 86% 203 - 239. although gallade can be checked by Cb crobat due to gallade being slower unless gallade packs a choice scarf in which psycho cut is guaranteed OHKO after SR atleast. gallade also having a massive Special Defense stat with bulk up/drain punch allows it to set up on those lowly snorlaxes PREDICTING the upcoming fighting move then forced to switch out. Also having priority shadow sneak being able to OHKO chandelure after an SD and. But his Defense is mediocre giving physical sweepers like krookodile an OHKO with EQ and pretty sure flygon can as well.
  3. Magcargo

    Magcargo That's Onii-sama to you
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    Gallade seems like c-rank pokemon because he is generally outclassed by heracross and mienshao. However, his psychic stab gives him an edge.

    Medicham also deserves C-Rank because he is a great heracross partner, and has enough power to 2HKO the entire metagame.
  4. PTJon7

    PTJon7

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    Yea I'd say Medicham and Gallade fall into the same catagory. Fighting-Psychic typing, not very fast, and outclassed. C-Rank seems about right for both.
  5. SerperiorThanU

    SerperiorThanU

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    Problem is Scrafty just never finds the time to boost because all the common attacks flung around in the metagame ohko or 2hko him. And after a Dragon Dance he's still slower than base 115s. Bulk Up is a bit more effective but moves like Orb Mienshao's Hi Jump Kick still ohkos even after a bulk up and then it's easily picked off. Scrafty just isn't very strong at all. It's base 90 attack is only mediocre, when other attackers like Cobalion can instantly X2 and is naturally fast, Heracross not being weak to fighting, it's just not too good in this metagame. The only thing Scrafty's got going for it is an immunity to psychic which isn't too helpful as most of them carry a fighting move too.

    It needs to predict to manuever around things like Crobat but then again so can anything, at least Cobalion can just spam Close Combat and not worry about a. a ghost type switching in or b. crobat ohkoing next turn. Cobalion can also ohko crobat with stone edge after rocks. It's stab coverage may be good but when it's so slow and not killing anything without a boost (it doesn't even ohko offensive meloetta with crunch who ohkos back with focus blast!!!). I think the Bulk Up set is the most effective, but even then it still lacks speed and killed easily by strong fighting and flying attacks,which UU is filled with. If it runs Moxie, it's wrecked by status (unless lum berry, but then you give up leftovers or life orb),if it runs Shed Skin, it loses the moxie boosts and only has a 30% chance to cure status. Maybe intimidate as a physical checker might work lol but when you're weak to fighting attacks...
  6. Magcargo

    Magcargo That's Onii-sama to you
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    Cobalion cannot hit ghost types that hard, not to mention scrafty has dark STAB to fend off ghost types and zen headbutt to hurt crobat. Even though moxie scrafty is wrecked by status, so are mienshao and heracross.
  7. Warb

    Warb

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    1. Yes but Scrafty is not as fast as Mienshao or Heracross (which is either Scarfed or runs Guts anyways) to threaten status inducers with brutally heavy hits which can OHKO weakened pokes before they can throw their status across the battlefield.
      Nonetheless, I think Scrafty is perfectly fine where it stands, it does have its good niche of being a very bulky Fighting-type that isn't outright countered by Cofagrigus, UU's premier Ghost-type.
  8. ryanr554

    ryanr554

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    I assumed Qwilfish was already B rank considering it could easily switch in on the top threats in the tier like Heracross and Mienshao and get a free layer of spikes as they switch. It's movepool is also very nice as a supporter with things like T-wave, Haze and even Destiny Bond which is viable since it is decently fast.

    It's a pity it takes special hits about as well as Sharpedo.
  9. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    I'm not sure why you keep giving praise to Zen Headbutt when Ice Punch can hit the likes of Crobat and Roserade pretty much just as hard. You may argue that Crobat is still hit by Zen Headbutt even as it Roosts, but if Crobat outspeeds you Scrafty is still kinda boned, or you could nab that 2nd Dragon Dance (if you've got one beforehand) while it Roosts and Ice Punch it anyway.

    It's true Scrafty has issues with its speed, however Scrafty is remarkably difficult to wall, and its abilities make playing around it pretty difficult. Some of the bulkiest pokemon in UU, namely Cofagrigus, Slowbro, Umbreon, Gligar, Bronzong, freakin' Dusclops are all helpless before Scrafty, something no other Fighting-type can boast. Even Sableye cannot stop Scrafty reliably if it is forced to Recover right after Shed Skin undid its Will-o-Wisp. Moxie variants can be a nasty surprise too, as suddenly your one hope, let's say Shaymin, Swampert, Suicune or Zapdos is KOed by an unexpected +2 attack as opposed to +1 as you sacced your poke to get your free switch.

    Outspeeding Scrafty isn't too difficult, but it is arguably the most difficult Fighting-type to outright wall. Doesn't sound good enough for A-Rank, but definitely good enough for B-Rank.
  10. SerperiorThanU

    SerperiorThanU

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    Yeah, I'm also not too sure why the praise for Zen Headbutt when every other fighter can just ohko with stone edge on the switch too. And I don't see how you can even 2hko Crobat as it ohkos with brave bird after a few layers of spikes. And DD Scrafty is just ohkoed no matter what, especially by CB Crobat. DD scrafty is horrendously frail for such a slow Pokemon and gets 2hkoed By Roserade Sludge Bomb and even 2hkoed by Defensive Arcanine. The coverage doesn't really matter as without a boost it still isn't doing much, just 3hkoing Slowbro and Cofagrigus (who ohkos Scrafty with a +2 HP Fighting). And besides those aren't Scrafty's counters. Stuff like Hitmontop is and Heracross is. And it's far too easy to just send in Mienshao or Heracross on an obvious boost and just smash it.

    A +2 Scrafty (as if you can even get that many boosts) doesn't even ohko heracross with Ice Punch and if you have Zen Headbutt you fail to to even 2hko Zapdos. Stuff like Specs Raikou can still outspeed at +1 and do up to 80% damage which Scrafty would've most likely have already gotten hurt 20% by stuff like Bronzong Earthquake. Overall Scrafty is much less hardhitting than other fighting types and very easy to play around.

    Stuff like Cobalion, Meloetta, Yanmega, Nidoking, and Porygon-Z are all B rank because of their flaws, however they're much more hardhitting and rewarding than Scrafty. Scrafty's bulk is even less than Cobalion on the defense side. Hitmontop is even on the same level as Scrafty imo as Hitmontop has about the same amount of defenses without that crippling fighting weak, more base attack and speed, most importantly rapid spin, and even has priority that can be taken advantage of with technician.

    I've used Scrafty before and though it's decent, it just lacks substance, and it's much easier and rewarding to use stuff like Cobalion, Hitmontop, and Meloetta. I've always been quite disappointed with Scrafty even when I outpredict or face against noobs. I never had trouble facing him either.
  11. Magcargo

    Magcargo That's Onii-sama to you
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    You keep forgetting that scrafty has a STAB crunch, which means that not many pokemon wall him. You also make no mention of bulk up scrafty as well. If the foe has a mienshao or heracross a smart zen headbut/ Hi jump kick will be enough to Ko them (Ice punch scrafty is walled by cross). In order to use scrafty properly, you need to know when to setup. If you setup when the foes crobat is still alive, you probably aren't going to sweep the foes team. Like many people have said, scrafty isn't walled very eaily by defensive pokemon, which is why it is B-Rank. Thanks to its type coverage, literally no defensive pokemon can wall it. BU scrafty can also shrug off status rather easily and thank quite a few hits after a bulk up.

    And its not like nidoking, yanmega and porygon-z are going to take those hits you mentioned better.
  12. SerperiorThanU

    SerperiorThanU

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    Yes, and I've my point that it's not too useful when it's base attack is so mediocre for a supposed sweeper. I mentioned that Bulk Up Scrafty is definitely more effective but it still shares a lot of the same problems, slow, needs a few boosts to do much damage, frail for such a slow pokemon, and weak to the most common attack in the meta, fighting (and not having a bug resist to boot so a +1 Hera can stay in with a locked megahorn). Yeah, smart predicting can go a long way but then everything can be good then, Bisharp should be B. Also without Ice Punch Scrafty just dies to Zapdos, Gligar, etc. The main argument for him is that the main defensive walls have a weakness to one of his STABs, well then don't send in a ghost type into a dark type. Use a Suicune or something or even Venomoth. Or you can just outpredict it and send in a heavy hitter.

    This is also all assuming Hi Jump Kick even hits, I've actually been lucky with him and have had it miss less often then Air Slash. But when it does, that thing just breaks Scrafty, as unlike Mienshao it doesn't have Regenerador.

    And while you're right about the B rank Pokemon (at least Yanmega can tank a close combat/hi jump kick and Nidoking resists the common rock/fighting coverage) they can hit much much harder off the bat and faster too.
  13. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    Well no shit, but you've also missed the point that Scrafty can switch in on the aforementioned defensive pokemon that most other setup pokemon wouldn't dream of doing. You don't know the ability Scrafty is running until it is usually too late, most of the time giving it a free boost. Its numerous coverage options also mean that your offensive counters aren't safe 100% of the time, especially when considering Scrafty doesn't need to boost to nail them hard (I admit to looking down on Zen Headbutt, as hitting Scarfcross on the switch is pretty big). Your Suicune may well be maimed by a +1 Hi Jump Kick while you are forced to Roar if you have not determined is ability yet (meaning Scald isn't an option). What the hell's Venomoth gonna do? If Scrafty has Shed Skin it is mere setup fodder, and even then DD variants can still beat you down, especially after SR.

    Scrafty can't really setup on most offensive threats, but can still go toe to toe with them without boosts. It can get pretty nightmarish for defensive teams, I'll give you that much.
  14. SerperiorThanU

    SerperiorThanU

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    No, (DD) Scrafty CAN'T switch in to Cofagrigus because +2 HP fighting ohkos after rocks while Scrafty needs 2 boosts to ohko. Scrafty fears switching into slowbro's scald too in case of a burn. My argument so far has been that Scrafty does not hit hard without a boost, barely 3hkoing standard slowbro, while slowbro can fish for a burn and then switch out to zapdos, crobat, or heracross. Milotic can just use haze to take away the boosts as +1 Hi Jump Kick doesn't even 2hko and then use a combo of scald/recover to heal. Its actually pretty easy to see what set its running because most players go for the boost first and even if they didn't, all you have to do is see how much damage your attack hits, as DD Scrafty takes hits worse than Meloetta. While venomoth can't do much, Shed Skin only has a 30% chance to occur, so it isn't reliable.

    I guess the thing we can all agree on is that Scrafty can handle defensive teams ok but when UU is so offensively based with Hera, Darm, and Chandy everywhere...
  15. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
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    CB scrafty is legitimately the best set it can run, and honestly it's pretty good but not stellar

    what you guys need to realize is that pokemon in B / C rank are not terrible / useless!! it just means they are harder to use, have a lower effectiveness ceiling, etc. etc. i think we need to put this in big bright letters in the OP so people stop being outraged when their personal favorite isn't more highly ranked because they've won a few battles with a team built around it

    like seriously, take medicham. one of my personal favorites, has won me many matches, yet I know and accept that it's a C / D rank Pokemon. (I think we should slightly tweak the definition of D rank - as written if a pokemon has any niche it's automatically C rank which is just dumb)

    also qwilfish is super good, just not incredibly popular, definitely B rank
  16. exotic

    exotic

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    I agree with this statement. Qwilfish is a very good spiker because it has the ability to set up on popular pokemon, like heracross, mienshao, Darmanitan and Victini (both locked in their STAB/spam move). Also, Intimidate is an wonderful ability.
  17. TPO3

    TPO3 Never practice; Always perform.

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    I'd just like to add that Qwilfish has a decent recovery option in Pain Split, so it's not just a one-and-done deal. Qwilfish also has the ability to Thunder Wave some common switch-ins, who think they get in for free on a Spikes. Stuff like Zapdos, Raikou, or Nasty Plot Mew might come in thinking they get a free turn, only to be crippled for the remainder of the match. This in addition to being one of the few reliable Spikers, as well as switching into common physical threats makes it a great pokemon in the tier.
  18. czechm8

    czechm8

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    I'd like to make a case for Glaceon for C-tier. I've been using it on my hail team with a set of
    Ice Body
    Modest @Leftovers
    208 HP / 44 Def / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
    Substitute
    Protect
    Blizzard
    Hidden Power Electric

    He plays basically like a Stallrein, but a stallrein with the most powerful non-uber blizzard (tied with Kyurem). He's obviously not perfect, being slow and weak to fire and fighting, he also requires something to remove toxic spikes, and to ideally place toxic spikes for easier wearing down of opponents. Therefore, I normally pair him with Qwilfish as he fulfills all of those roles. As I've said he requires some support, but once he has a sub he's very hard to stop. Since unlike Stallrein he has much more offensive presence. He can also beat Bronzong 1v1 as he can easily stall out gyro ball, earthquake fails to break his sub, and he can chip away with HP Electric.

    This set's biggest problem is taunt users, however most common taunt users do not appreciate STAB Blizzards coming of 394 special attack.
    Some Calcs (all calcs include stealth rock)
    To some notable bulky mons
    252+ SpA Glaceon Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 216-255 (53.46 - 63.11%) So mew can taunt you, but dies before it can break your sub assuming that you attack on the taunt
    252+ SpA Glaceon Blizzard vs. 176 HP / 4 SpD Crobat: 516-608 (145.35 - 171.26%) Crobat taunts and dies
    252+ SpA Glaceon Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 129-153 (32.74 - 38.83%) 3HKO but after some TSpikes damage he falls (unless he has heal bell)
    252+ SpA Glaceon Blizzard vs. 72 HP / 184 SpD Thick Fat Snorlax: 84-100 (17.53 - 20.87%) (he easily toxic stalls CB Lax)
    252+ SpA Glaceon Blizzard vs. 72 HP / 184 SpD Snorlax: 169-199 (35.28 - 41.54%) (if no thick fat)
    252+ SpA Glaceon Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Cofagrigus: 205-243 (64.26 - 76.17%)
    252+ SpA Glaceon Hidden Power Electric vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blastoise: 160-190 (44.19 - 52.48%)
    252+ SpA Glaceon Blizzard vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 235-277 (58.6 - 69.07%)
    Glaceon taking hits
    0 Atk Bronzong Earthquake vs. 208 HP / 44 Def Glaceon: 58-69 (17.95 - 21.36%) (After stalling GyroBall he can't break the sub)
    4 Atk Scrafty Drain Punch vs. 208 HP / 44 Def Glaceon: 134-158 (41.48 - 48.91%) (assuming Scrafty came in on you)

    So yeah those are some examples of Glaceon; as I've said he needs some support to keep off T-spikes, and maintain hail, but once he sets up his first sub he has the stalling abilities of Walrein, and the raw power of Kyurem's Blizzard. He's not perfect, but he does his jov well.

    (sorry for text wall)
  19. SerperiorThanU

    SerperiorThanU

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    Yes, that was my point. Scrafty can definitely show his strength but needs a lot of support, is harder to use than say Meloetta or Cobalion, and doesn't give out as much of a reward when used properly. Thus, while it does have a great niche, I believe it just doesn't do it too well thus being C rank. And I've built a set around Scrafty, it definitely needs more support than stuff like Yanmega.
  20. Magcargo

    Magcargo That's Onii-sama to you
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    Yanmega absolutely needs rapid spin support, other wise it will die after 2 SR switch ins. So saying that scrafty requires more support than yanmega is pretty flawed. Scrafty may struggle with crobat and mienshao, but has a few major advantages that make him B-Rank. First, he can get past most ghost types thanks to his Dark STAB and BU variants can shrug off status and special attacks thanks to the special defense investment. Second, he has near perfect coverage that is only resisted by heracross, who dies to a LO Zen headbutt after SR. No other fighting type in the tier can claim to do these things. Futhermore, scrafty an get past mienshao and crobat with Hi jump kick/Ice punch.
  21. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest I Love Goomy
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    Yanmega needs spin support to really work to its fullest potential or otherwise it WILL die quickly. Yes, Volcarona can work in OU without sun, but here's the difference: Volcarona has room for recovery, and actually has nice bulk to take priority, Yanmega does not. Yanmega needs to be paired up with Blastoise as SR is pretty common in this tier (ahem Azelf). No Yanmega is going to run Leftovers. It needs either Choice Specs or Life Orb to be successful, and it has no recovery.

    Scrafty is a solid B-Rank because it has excellent STAB coverage and great boosting moves. And I have no idea where you are coming from about Ghost-types being rare in UU. Chandelure and Cofagrigus are popular and are on almost every single team you run into. They are Top 20 in usage, which also reflects that. Heracross and Mienshao shitting on him should not justify demoting Scrafty. Weavile is A-Rank, and he gets shit on by the two as badly as Scrafty does (hera and Mien commonly run Scarf, so Weavile's speed doesn't matter. Also, Krookodile and Porygon-Z are B-Rank, and they get shit on by Fighting-types all day. Does that disqualify them from being B-Rank threats? No, it does not. So that argument to not keep Scrafty in B-Rank is thrown right out the door. Scrafty has potential to really sweep teams to pieces with DD / HJK / Crunch / Ice Punch and can demolish teams. He has his place as the sole Fighting-type who is not manhandled by the popular Cofagrigus. Scrafty also has a CB set and a BU set, so he's also got some good perks.

    Even with flaws, Scrafty is pretty dangerous and overall has enough perks to justify a pretty solid B-Rank placement.
  22. SerperiorThanU

    SerperiorThanU

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    Getting past Ghost types is its only niche and it doesn't even do it that well as a +2 Cofagrigus can ohko after rocks. Chandelure cleanly ohkos with fire blast so Scrafty can't switch in and not only that, CHANDELURE can switch in as if Scrafty Dragon Dances on the switch, Scarf lure will still outspeed it. It CAN'T get past the ghosts in the tier 1 on 1. All it can do is look for the switch and no good player is switching in a Ghost type on a part dark type. He can't even switch in to ghost types. Not even Mismagius. The near perfect coverage isn't going to work when it's not hitting nearly as nard enough as all the other fighting types can. Using LO and Zen headbutt is completely impractical, lo takes away the recovery that scrafty desperately needs as it's always taking at least one hit and Zen Headbutt means he gives up hitting Birds (other than crobat) and Shaymin. That "no other fighting type" argument doesn't mean anything. There are many things that can do stuff nothing else can do like volbeat, doesn't mean they're B or even C. Scrafty is just such a worse choice than the other fighters, including Cobalion and his only niche is to hit ghost types, and not even that well.

    Scrafty is "dangerous" but so is everything else in the B tier and even in the C tier. Problem is Scrafty isn't dangerous enough,as it needs boosts to hit remotely hard, and its perks aren't rewarding compared to other Pokemon in the B tier. Using CB with base 90 attack is just disappointing. Hell it only has 5 more attack than Bronzong! Scrafty can barely hope to sweep teams. It's only if the opponent is bad.
  23. akuto

    akuto

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    I have to completely agree with serp scrafty can't really do much to the more common ghost types without stat boosting past +1 with dd. And gallade also checks scrafty hard due to justify and typing so both stabs wont help scrafty or the rest of the team. And ghost types are not that common on uu teams. Ghost types u said were in the top <20> which up the ladder i almost never see.
  24. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    No objections to moving Qwilfish up to B-tier for the reasons stated by most of the users in this thread. I'm going to go ahead with my plan of moving Rhyperior to A-tier too, because it's just that good of a Pokemon in BW UU.

    Qwilfish up from C-rank ==> B-rank
    Rhyperior up from B-rank ==> A-rank

    Also consider this a word from god; Scrafty is not dropping from down from B-tier, end of discussion.
  25. LonelyNess

    LonelyNess PK FLASH
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    But Togekiss in S-Tier already, damnit!

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