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Discussion in 'UnderUsed' started by PK Gaming, Oct 1, 2012.
But Togekiss in S-Tier already, damnit!
Well, I'm happy scrafty isn't dropping down.
I've been experimenting with heracross and I think it deserves S-Rank. I'm not talking about the predictible Choice Scarf heracross, but rather Choice Band heracross. Choice band heracross has amazing power, beng able to 2HKO offensive cofagrigus with night slash and OHKO standard 100 hp nidoqueen with earthquake. And by constantly switching in and out, Many people will believe that you are scarfed, meaning that stuff like weavile, who is scared of scarfed heracross, will atuomatically switch out. You can even run moxie on this set to further bluff a choice scarf. Choice band Heracross deserves S-Rank because of all of the feats mentioned before.
EDIT:Noob question: Why is venemoth A-Rank and why is galavantula B-Rank?
Venomoth's role in UU is quite different from Galvantula. Venomoth is primarily a Quiver Dance Baton Passer/Sweeper while Galv is a Life Orb sweeper.
Venomoth's ability to put things to sleep and pass a very good boost to special attackers and at the same time not be taunt bait or really frail (Smeargle) makes it one of the best Baton Passers in the tier.
Ok thanks. However, I'm not comparing galvantula to venomoth, but wondering why galvantula is B-rank when there are many better electric types like raikou, while wondering why venomoth was A-rank at the same time..
Firstly, Galvantula has two great STAB attacks (Thunder and Bug Buzz) that complement each other really well. It also can beat Ground types and recover with Giga Drain.
Galv's good base 108 speed lets it outspeed all the base 100 and 105 pokemon in the tier (Shaymin, LO Mienshao, Mew, Zapdos to name a few) and also speed tie with Cobalion and Virizion.
Its general frailness and weakness to Stealth Rock does hamper it, but I still think its very worthy of B-Rank.
Personally I feel like Galvantula is honestly really weak. Looking at 97 base SpA, that is only 3 points more than Ferrothorn's attack! Despite the great design, it's so outclassed in UU by Raikou and Zapdos, I honestly see it as C rank. Gigs Drain is very weak coming off 97 spa and non STAB, so that's not that great of a move for it. Imo Galvantula for C rank.
I think you're underestimating how powerful Thunder is. The huge increase in BP over Thunderbolt is really significant, and helps make up for its SAtk stat, which I will admit isn't that high.
It also doesn't have to rely on HP Ice to deal with Grass types like Raikou does, it can fire off a STAB Bug Buzz instead.
Thunder is quite strong but the ubiquity of snorlax really makes galvantula lesser. If you want a strong electric type just use raikou. Also the paper thin defenses are very unattractive. If only galvantula had ~10 higher base SpA it would be a lot better, but B rank is by no means bad. Bronzong and qwilfish are an excellent support duo or alone and they find themselves in the B rank due to how common certain pokemon are. B rank doesn't mean something is bad, it just means it is not always a top choice. Any team in UU can pretty much use snorlax well, but not every team can fit in a galvantula or qwilfish well. I know snorlax is S and those mons are B, but the A mons are defining factors of the UU metagame (heracross, chandelure, flygon) which galvantula is not unfortunately.
I definitely agree that Galvantula is B-Rank, I was just defending its position.
galvantulas coverage covers alot of the UU metagame but he does have mediocre defensive stats and hes hit super effectively by the more common moves in uu so i would say C-rank.
Victini should be moved up to S-Rank. The only Pokemon that can really switch into it is Snorlax, everything else just gets butt raped by the set below:
Victini @ Charcoal
Even with minimal Attack investment, V-Create still hits like a morherfucking bitch because of its awesome base 180 power and a 20% boost from Charcoal. Defensive Zapdos gets fucked by Blue Flare; specially defensive Zapdos gets fucked by V-Create. It can't survive two hits no matter its side of bulk. It's usual "counter," Rhyperior, gets a KO from Grass Knot. Roserade, Bronzong, Togekiss, Nidoqueen, Nidoking, Hitmontop, Claydol, Qwilfish, Blastoise, and almost the entire UU tier is OHKO'ed or 2HKO'ed at most with just those four moves alone. He has no hard counter at all, except Snorlax, like I mentioned earlier. But with the plethora of powerful fighting Pokemon like Heracross and Mienshao dominating the tier, just pairing one of them with Victini would cause all kind of havoc.
Something so powerful should be S-ranked.
You may have noticed a significant amount of undocumented changes several to the tier list. In an attempt to make this thread more accurate, I asked several top UU players for ways to improve the tier list. The biggest complaint was that B-tier was too big, and filled with Pokemon that weren't deserving of that placement. I asked those players send their own versions of what "B-tier" should look like, and compile a master list of my own.
That said, because being good at the game isn't the same as knowing what's best for it, I took the liberty of selectively implementing their suggested changes. Prior to this change, there was too big of a disparity between the Pokemon in B-tier. I wanted to be to optimistic, but there was just too many Pokemon in B-tier that competitive players didn't even actually use/would never use, so changes had to be made. C-tier is no longer tier filled with "mediocre Pokemon" but now a tier filled with "niche(as in, niche in a competitive environment)" pokemon.
So without further a do:
Crobat down from S-tier ==> A-tier
Abomasnow down from A-tier ==> B-tier
Arcanine down from B-tier ==> C-tier
Durant down from B-tier ==> C-tier
Galvantula down from B-tier ==> C-tier
Krookodile down from B-tier ==> C-tier
Liligant down from B-tier ==> C-tier
Milotic down from B-tier ==> C-tier
Rotom-F down from B-tier ==> C-tier
Walrein down from B-tier ==> C-tier
Slowking up from B-tier ==> A-tier
@Abomasnow & Crobat: The general consensus was that neither of these Pokemon were deserving of S-tier and A-tier respectively. Crobat is still a damn good Pokemon, but hardly a S-tier thread. I personally opposed to dropping Abomasnow, but I'll admit that I may have overhyped it based on "OMG HAIL."
@Slowking: It's practically interchangeable with Slowbro. What it loses in physical bulk, it gains in added special bulk and dragon tail, and there's Regenerator is an extremely good ability.
Remember, there are still plenty of changes to be made, and they aren't absolute!
@Whitequeen: I may do that, Victini is obscenely powerful.
yea he is, pk. and I'm talking the mixed set. With a choiceband or maxed attack, even thick fat Snorlax wouldn't be able to survive two vcreates. He seriously has no counters at all. Empoleon can take anything kingdra (an s-ranked Pokemon) throw at it. Vcreate flat out ohko empoleon too
I second moving victini up to S rank: It has an insanely powrefull choice band set, it can revenge kill with the scarf set(still hits hard with V-create-Bolt strike) AND can run mixed set to lure his "counters", i personally run this set:
This set makes it so easy to lure things: you can easily bluff a banded set and then BOOM your counters are dead form grass knot/HP ice, even at -1 speed victini will outspeed common walls such as swapert, rhyperior, gligar, no spd investment empoleon, etc and hit them with the appropriate move for a free kill. The SR weakness might hurt but it just needs spin support, not like with hitmontop/blastoise it will be too hard to get a spin.
This, imo, is enough for victini to deserve S-rank.
Now I disagree with this change. Arcanine is a pretty good pokemon and although he isn't the best fire type, he is worthy of B-Rank. Although many view him as an inferior Darmanitan/victini, he has quite a few strong points over them. Thanks to extremespeed, arcanine is harder to revenge kill than his fire type bretheren. Arcanine also has access to reliable recovery in the form of morning sun, allowing him to recover from SR damage and life orb recoil. He also has 2 great abilities in fire flash and intimidate. The former makes his flare blitz just as powerful as victini's V-Create, while the latter allows arcanine to tank physical hits better. At the very least, arcanine deserves low B-Rank because he has quite a few valuable assets over his bretheren.
I don't think Crobat should be A-Tier, I think it should be moved back up to S because it has the perfect combinations of movepool, typing, and stats. It's movepool is excellent because it can come in and land a very fast Taunt as the opponent fails to cripple it with status or anything else that doesn't damage, it can then U-Turn out and gain momentum. It also has reliable recovery in Roost, which also lets it evade a super-effective attack from slower Ice, Rock, or Electric attacks (which is any attacker in the tier than isn't scarfed). Brave Bird also lets it hit fairly hard.
Its typing lets it counter SO many pokemon in UU. Lets list some common pokemon that Crobat walls: Heracross (beware of Stone Edge), Roserade, Meinshao (same as Hera), Shaymin (SpD drops are annoying), Hitmontop, Scrafty, Virizion, and Yanmega. Those are just some of the common ones. Its stats are really good as it is the fastest pokemon in the metagame, only outpaced by Ninjask and Accelgor (correct me if I'm wrong here), both of which it walls and OHKOs. Its attack, although not great, isn't necessarily bad for a more support-oriented pokemon. Choice Band can also give it the potential to punch some holes in the opponent's team. It has some flaws, but not even Arceus is "perfect".
As you can see Crobat is more than deserving of being in S-Rank.
I just can't see Slowking in A rank to be honest. It may have the same stats except the switched defenses as Slowbro, but it's vastly inferior in this metagame and the two of them should not be sharing a rank.
Slowking is great in RU. It's a great stop to the majority of special attackers in that tier. But UU is dominated by special attackers that have super effective STAB moves to destroy it with. Zapdos, Raikou, Chandelure, Shaymin, and Yanmega to name a couple off the top of my head. If you're using Slowking as your main special wall/tank, (as people often use Slowbro as their main physical wall/tank) you're missing out on walling a significant portion of special attackers that you easily could have beaten with Snorlax or Umbreon.
Slowbro is A rank because it hard counters a fairly large portion of physical attackers in UU. A physical attacker has to predict perfectly to have a chance of getting past Slowbro. Slowking on the other hand cannot stand up to a good chunk of special attackers in UU, and should not be on the same level as his brother.
While I can definitely understand your point, even I - someone who regularily slaps Crobat onto every new UU team he makes - have to admit that Crobat's viability dropped a bit over the past months. As it stands right now, Zapdos, Froslass and Rhyperior are everywhere, and Crobat has a hard time dealing with those three. It doesn't really like switching into SR because it gets into coverage Stone Edge's KO range (which means that Roost becomes pointless in that situation) and it can't really do all that much to water types which UU has way too many of anyway.
The lead matchups for Crobat have also become tougher as more and more people actually know what Crobat can actually do so they play around Taunt. Froslass and Bronzong can threaten Crobat with a 2HKO with their respective STABs while it has to waste a turn to prevent SR or Spikes to be set up. Especially PP stalling Bronzong's Gyro Ball becomes iffy as crits (the chances of getting one Gyro Ball crit out of 8 shots isn't THAT bad actually :x) and STAB Psychic (yes people actually run this against Crobat) can deal with Crobat.
What's left are Fighting- and Grass-types (yup Virizion is double screwed LOLOLOL), both of which Crobat excels at checking but leaves it still at the mercy of other common Pokes such as the already mentioned Zapdos, Froslass, Rhyperior and tanky bastards such as Snorlax, Swampert and Blastoise (because getting burned or paralyzed sucks big time). Heck even Umbreon can pretty much force Crobat to Roost twice out of 3 turns if it doesn't wanna die to its own ATK stat.
The thing about Crobat in UU right now is not that it has become worse, but more like that everything around Crobat became accustomed to it and the playstyle behind that Pokemon. I'd say A-rank fits it better than S-rank for the time being.
I completely agree with this.
Slowking has one major niche over slowbro that makes it A-rank: Its movepool. Thanks to its movepool, slowking can do thing slowbro can only dream of. Dragon tail allows slowking to phaze, meaning that setup sweepers like DD Kingdra cannot ruin your day. Slowking also gets nasty plot, allowing it to run a better OTR set (though cofagigus is the better option for this). Slowking's niche isn't being a special wall, but rather a mixed wall since slowking can take a lot of neutral hits even without investing into special defense. While I agree with you that slowbro is better, slowking does deserve low A-Rank thanks to that movepool.
You make some good arguments here. For some reason I'd thought that Kingdra's sub could handle a DTail 100% of the time, but the damage calculator tells me I'm wrong so that's fair enough. Slowking can take neutral special hits decently, but the problem with that is Slowking is naturally weak to the most common special attacks in the metagame. Unless you come in on a scarf fire move you're in serious danger of being 2HKO'd by something you were counting on Sloking to wall. Jolly LO Darmanitan has a chance to 2HKO with FB and U-turn if there are rocks on the field for instance (against a +Def Slowking). Slowking is a good Pokemon don't get me wrong. OTR and Specs are a lot of fun, but you're much better off using almost every other bulky water in the tier if you're not using one of those sets in my opinon.
I'm gonna side with Reaver, Slowking is B-Rank. Slowbro is such a good wall because of the large amount of physical attacking Fire and Fighting types in the tier. Slowking is weak to the STAB attacks of the majority of the most powerful special attackers in UU (Chandelure, Zapdos, Raikou, Shaymin). Slowking does have the advantage of the Nasty-Room combo however, which makes it very threatening. I just ultimately think Slowbro is the superior option in most ways besides OTR.
I support pretty much all the other tier changes however, but I don't know why Galvantula or Lilligant even need to be listed. It just seems kind of unneccesary, since they're both C-Rank.
I have to agree on dropping Slowking to B-Rank.
The competition from other water types for a team slot just doesnt make me wanna use Slowking because his job is often done better by another water type or i need something like Azumarill (for priority) or Blastoise (for spinning) on the team.
Other reasons already have been mentioned so i dont have to put them out again :) I just agree with dropping him down^^
Yeah slowking should be b-rank, it specially defensive set isn't that good because he can't take STABs from raikou, rotom-h, chandelure or offensive roserade. Also it's offensive set is terrible and out classed by most special attackers.
The biggest question why do you use Slowking over Slowbro?
Because it checks the pokemon that Slowbro counters and deal with bulky waters much better thanks to Dragon Tail. That alone makes him the same rank as Slowbro imo.
I think Victini should be S-rank just because of how versatile it is and because it hits like a truck and has no true counters. All of it's checks/counters to the Band or Scarf set all fall to the mixed set. Rhyperior falls to Grass Knot easily so does Swampert. Slowbro and Suicune are 2HKO'd by Grass Knot when they try to switch into V-create. Arcanine, Chandelure, Kingdra and Gligar are 2HKO'd by Psychic while Hitmontop is OHKO'd I believe. I'm pretty sure most Snorlax are 2HKO'd by Focus Blast after Stealth Rock and Houndoom has no chance of surviving. Even without attack EV investment on the Mixed set V-create still hits like a nuke with Life Orb. It's also the fastest Fire type in the tier. It does have some flaws like being weak to Stealth Rock and Pursuit weak though but it's pretty much guaranteed you will get a kill or two with it and that's at worse.