The UU Viability Ranking Thread

[Aecor]

I think Qwilfish should be C-ranked. Although it's a great wall, it's mostly due to it's typing. It just so happens that Fire and Fighting tend to be the physical titans of UU, and Qwilfish possess the typing to counter the two--in addition to the ability Intimidate.

It's special bulk is pretty terrible, as it's taken out easily--even with resisted hits, such as scalds from Suicine and such. It does have a pretty awesome support movepool in thunder wave, taunt, and destiny bond (of course T-spikes and spikes); however, it's just a support mon and cannot really function well on its own. Therefore, I suggest C rank for Qwilfish.

 

[PTJon7]

Umm KatsnJase you just gave a pretty convincing argument as to why Qwilfish should be in B-Rank...

Qwilfish is hands down one of the best walls in the tier. Not only does it resist the two most dominant offensive typings in UU, it has access to an ability that shuts down almost any physical attacker it comes up against.

It's base speed puts it ahead of the majority of opposing walls and thanks to Taunt it can easily shut all of them down. Having invaluable support moves in Toxic Spikes, Spikes, T-Wave, Scald, and Destiny Bond, Qwilfish can support a team very nicely. While it does lack reliable recovery, so do a whole lot walls (Cofagrigus, Bronzong, Blastoise, Hitmontop).

The argument that Qwilfish is a poor specially defensive wall isn't really valid, its a physical wall. Just like you don't use defensive Cofagrigus to wall special attackers, or Snorlax to wall physical attackers.

 

[Aecor]

Umm KatsnJase you just gave a pretty convincing argument as to why Qwilfish should be in B-Rank...

Qwilfish is hands down one of the best walls in the tier. Not only does it resist the two most dominant offensive typings in UU, it has access to an ability that shuts down almost any physical attacker it comes up against.

It's base speed puts it ahead of the majority of opposing walls and thanks to Taunt it can easily shut all of them down. Having invaluable support moves in Toxic Spikes, Spikes, T-Wave, Scald, and Destiny Bond, Qwilfish can support a team very nicely. While it does lack reliable recovery, so do a whole lot walls (Cofagrigus, Bronzong, Blastoise, Hitmontop).

The argument that Qwilfish is a poor specially defensive wall isn't really valid, its a physical wall. Just like you don't use defensive Cofagrigus to wall special attackers, or Snorlax to wall physical attackers.

The issue with that is that Snorlax has gigantic HP to sponge some physical attacks, and Cofag has many different uses other than being a wall (Nasty Room). Qwilfish, from what I've seen, is pretty much a One-trick Pony. The only other set I've ever seen was in 4th gen with hyper-offense rain.

Qwilfish is rather easy to play around with since it typically carries one set. I believe it should be C-ranked, but truthfully, I haven't used it enough to make a solid judgement. I leave that decision to everyone else debating; however, from an outsiders POV, I think it should be C ranked.

 

[Bassmaster4]

Keep in mind that Slowbro exists also, and he does the same job of walling Fightings and Fires
Here's a list of pros and cons of each

Slowbro
Pros-
-Reliable recovery in Slack Off
-Regenerator lets him regain even more health
-Better HP,Def, and Sdf (even though you shouldn't be staying in on special attacks) than Qwilfish
Cons-
-Doesn't have entry hazards
-Can be toxiced
-Slow as shit

Qwilfish
Pros-
-Can set up Spikes and Toxic Spikes
-Immune to Toxic, and can absorb Toxic Spikes
-Decently fast for a wall
-Can Taunt walls, because it's very fast compared to other walls
Cons-
-Relies on ability to correctly utilize his bulk
-Many Poison-Types can switch in and absorb Toxic Spikes, while the plethora of Flying-Type and Levitators in the tier make Spikes kinda shit
-Overall really low stats

Conclusion- Slowbro's access to reliable recovery in Slack Off, and the ability to recover 1/3 of its health when it switches out already make it near impossible to wear down. The only thing that he lacks is hazards, and the hazards that Qwilfish provides aren't too useful for the reasons listed above. The reason why I bring up the Slowbro argument it because a C-Rank pokemon is classified as a Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are typically inferior to the Pokemon in the above ranks. Qwilfish is like an inferior Slowbro, and he should only really be used to stall teams, where spinblockers are abundant. This is why Qwilfish should be C-Rank.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Qwilfish isn't typically inferior to Slowbro tbh. Qwilfish actually full stops Heracross because it resists Megahorn while Slowbro is weak to it. Setting up Spikes is a big thing in Qwilfish's favor; you're underestimating the fact that UU is a Spikes centric metagame, especially with Froslass running amok in the tier. Qwilfish checks a lot of important threats, including the best Pokemon Mienshao, as well as Victini, Darmanitan, and others. Qwilfish is not just for stall teams; he is for teams that want not only Spikes support, but need a Mienshao or Darmanitan check but cannot afford Froslass at all. It is also noteworthy that Qwilfish also has Destiny Bond to take down an opponent, while Taunt makes sure opposing Pokemon don't set up on it. Qwilfish has a lot of support options, while it can check threats, giving it opportunities to set up what it needs to get up. Qwilfish is overall a very useful Pokemon in UU and definitely deserves B-Rank. For the record, if you haven't seen the B-Rank definition:

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outclassed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category

Qwilfish fits this definition to a T imo. He does fulfill a given defensive niche; a check to many physical threats that also reliably sets up Spikes.

 

[Exbo]

Sorry to deviate from the current topic (Qwilfish)

How come Dusclops is E rank? It should be AT LEAST D rank, if not C.
It has amazing bulk with Eviolite, recovery with Pain split, cripples physical attackers with Will-O or walls with Toxic, and really only fears TrickSpecs or something. Its typing allows for very good defensive synergy with many pokemon like Registeel, Hitmontop and Snorlax.

Speaking of which, mixed sets like SF+LO Nidoking with 3 S.attacks and Superpower demolish SDef Snorlax. It's horrible uninvested Def makes it A rank at best imo.

 

[spuds4ever]

Dusclops' problem is that it is firstly horribly outclassed by cofagrigus and secondly that it fails to do anything at all significant offensively. Relying on seismic toss and toxic as your main forms of damage is really not ideal as many teams can just switch in frosslass or roserade and get free spikes up or start setting up with BU scrafty or curselax if it's a bulkier team.

In short, it's really held back by it's one dimensionalness (that's a word now), making it predictable easy set up fodder.

Snorlax is the best Pokemon in the tier at the moment in my view even with all the fighting types about. Its offensive set is basically guarenteed a kill every game unless the opponent is running slowbro or mono physical team. Because it can switch in on nearly any special attacker in the tier and abuse its great coverage. I could elaborate but i don't think it's necessary, s is where it should stay in my view.

 

[Aecor]

I think Dusclops should be D-ranked. It's incredibly bulky and is hard pressed if you don't have any extremely hard-hitters...but lack of reliable recovery, susceptible to hazards, and little to no offensive presence makes it D ranked, in my opinion. Has a niche as a defensive spin-blocker and a defensive pivot, but it really is outclassed by Cofag.

 

[Bassmaster4]

As a person who hasn't used Dusclops much, I can't really vouch for it being good. The only reason why I think it's it E-Rank is because players love to shit on random things for no reason. Dusclops does have incredible bulk with Eviolite, but it has absolutely zero offensive presence, which makes it setup bait for so may Pokemon. Also the fact that Cofagrigus exists, who has a decent Spa stat, access to Haze, and the OTR set already makes Dusclops inferior. That being said, I don't think Dusclops should be E-Rank, just put it up to D-Rank, because it does fill a very small niche of bulky af Ghost. It's not like going from E to D will make much of a change anyway...

 

[Exbo]

I don't really see how a pokemon can "easily setup on" Dusclops between Will-O and Pain split... And seriously, Night shade is only so that you aren't Taunt bait. Nobody expects you to directly deal damage with a Dusclops.

Speaking of Taunt, yeah, it would hurt. But I don't see many Froslass surviving more than 4-5 rounds of play, whereas Dusclops' time to shine is mid-game.

And you wouldn't switch your physical wall on an Azelf anyway. Unless it was banded. In which case it would not carry Taunt. So there. As for Azelf switching in on you, well, there are 2 types of Azelf. Support and All-out attacker. The former cannot hurt anything on your team and the latter will eat a tasty Toxic in the face, 1 turn protect, switch to your special wall. Done.

Point is, Dusclops' main job is crippling stuff and outstalling more stuff. Not dealing damage. Sableye is the same thing except Prankster and no weaknesses though less bulk. Dusclops is really underrated, because it has way more bulk than Cofagrigus. Don't compare them, they just aren't the same.

Sure, I hate stall too, I hate Eviolite and I hate Hoenn (a little). And even if Dusclops is outclassed by Cofagrigus (read: not in ALL aspects) this is no reason for the one to be A and the other E-rank.

There are way worse pokemon that could be E-rank anyway... Who died and made Ambipom C and Cryogonal D-rank?

PS: I insist that Snorlax be moved to A-rank. Sure, Snorlax, <bulky ghost> and <bulky levitator> make for an unbreakable defensive core, but that is the defintion of A-rank (1-2 extra walls is not "little to no", it is some support).
Mixed sets with Superpower (for example) destroy arrogant Snorlax who wait until they are below 50% HP and statused to Rest. It is just a matter of timing. And RestTalk is unreliable. You rely on hax, period.
And the CB Snorlax set is just a matter of predictions, too. As is ANY choiced set on ANY pokemon.

 

[Trainer Au]

No solid way to boost its stats along with the fact that it doesn't have any one amazing bast stat to work with makes it for the lack of (for example, Zapdos have 125SpA makes it OK to run an Agility Set) makes it an A ranked Poke.

With the other person saying the speed tier is crucial, I agree with him completely. He's right, the speed tier is certain. The offensive variants of Shaymin, Mew, and Zapdos need to speed tie with opposing Victini so they don't lose out 100% of the time. You're saying Shaymin will NEVER switch into Victini? It doesn't have to be INTO Victini, but rather vice-versa. If Victini switches into Shaymin to take the predicted Seed-Flare/Giga Drain/Leaf Storm as a pivot-switch, and it's one of the only pokes that can retaliate, being Timid/Jolly is imperative towards victory.

It's only slightly above speed tier, weakness to hazards in a Meta where Spinblockers are actually good, need for +Spe Nature, and nasty draw-backs from its main set causes Victini to remain A rank.

More needs not be said. Your worthless argument of Mienshao need Jolly to outpace +100, what if ALL of the 100s were to do +Spa/Atk Nature because they "appreciate the extra damage output," would Mienshao be "forced" to run Jolly? I don't think so.

If you rely on Victini to come in on Shaymin, then idk what you're doing. Btw Shaymin will not stay in when Victini comes into it. And hey man, if you think Meinshao shouldn't be +Spe, then you can go ahead and follow your own advice and run a adamant CB Mienshao team and see how far you get =].

 

[shadowpandax]

lol Snorlax in A. Snorlax should stay in S, because of its ability to check many special attacking threats, ranging from OTR Cofagrigus to Chandelure. Mixed Specially Based Attackers? There's not a lot of them from what I've seen. Only things like Tornadus are mixed attackers that can dent Snorlax. I've used CB, and its very good at checking many special attacking threats. Need to have something check a Chandelure? Snorlax Pursuit traps SubSplit / Scarf Chandelure (most common variants on the ladder). Snorlax is a Pokemon that is very easy to put on a team, and it won't drag your team down more cases than not. "Some support" isn't necessarily just 1 Pokemon along with Snorlax. I consider that to be "little" support, and looking at all the Pokemon in S rank, all of them need to have some support to be able to reach their full potential.

From my experiences with Snorlax, its solid S rank and nothing more. Trying to move it down is absurd.

 

[Bassmaster4]

I agree with what you said about Dusclops, but i'm pointing out that my reason stated in my previous post, and the fact that the playerbase loves to hate on Dusclops is why it's in E-Rank. I agree with Exbo, and I think that Dusclops should be D-Rank, but it's not much of a difference.

Although I agree with you on Dusclops, I, and about 99% of UU players, disagree with you on Snorlax. Snorlax walls almost every special attacker in the tier with ease. With the Spd Rest set, he can take special hits for days, rest off the damage, and use a moderately powered Body Slam to fish for parahax. Yes, Snorlax is weak to Fighting, but he has five other teammates to keep that weakness under control.

The Choice Band set, or any offensive variant of Snorlax, hits like a goddamn truck. His Pursuit puts a screeching halt to all Choice Chandelure variants, which is 99% of them, and he has an insanely high powered Return, along with good coverage with the elemental Punches, Earthquake, and Crunch. The fact that Snorlax can perform those two very useful roles, and do them damn well, is the reason why Snorlax should stay S-Rank.

 

[Exbo]

Hide

lol Snorlax in A. Snorlax should stay in S, because of its ability to check many special attacking threats, ranging from OTR Cofagrigus to Chandelure. Mixed Specially Based Attackers? There's not a lot of them from what I've seen. Only things like Tornadus are mixed attackers that can dent Snorlax. I've used CB, and its very good at checking many special attacking threats. Need to have something check a Chandelure? Snorlax Pursuit traps SubSplit / Scarf Chandelure (most common variants on the ladder). Snorlax is a Pokemon that is very easy to put on a team, and it won't drag your team down more cases than not. "Some support" isn't necessarily just 1 Pokemon along with Snorlax. I consider that to be "little" support, and looking at all the Pokemon in S rank, all of them need to have some support to be able to reach their full potential.

From my experiences with Snorlax, its solid S rank and nothing more. Trying to move it down is absurd.

Please tell me what the hell can Snorlax do mid-late game if you have a scarfed Mienshao/Heracross/Flygon.
Please tell me what can Snorlax do if you have a banded Darmanitan.
Please tell me what Snorlax can do against Dusclops/Sableye/Cofagrigus.
Please tell me what Snorlax can do against Registeel/Cobalion.
Please tell me what Snorlax can do against Tangrowth/Amoonguss.

But... <insert coverage move here>!!!

Yes but how many coverage moves can it have? EQ and Pursuit and Crunch? And a defensive spread to take hits better? And RestTalk? And a CB to deal awesome damage?

Come on, there has GOT to be something on your team that can counter (right, not merely check, but counter) a slow Pokemon with one immunity and some defense. All you have to do is scout it, and weaken it along with its supports.

Ninjask'd, there are too many of you. I'm just leaving my last rant here if anyone is interested and I'll stop insisting..... Let's just talk about Qwilfish and Dusclops.

 

[dwarfstar]

Exbo, I just want to point out that just because a Pokemon has counters doesn't mean it isn't fantastic and deserving of an S ranking. If it had no counters, it would be banned.
Looking at OU (most of my experience is there), all four of the S-ranked Pokemon (Politoed, Terrakion, Keldeo, and Landorus-I) have hard counters who can either wall them cold or shred them. That doesn't make them any less viable in the metagame. Snorlax is in a similar situation here.

 

[shadowpandax]

@Exbo Why the in hell would you keep your Snorlax in on all those physical attackers. None of them can easily switch into Snorlax, as they fear either Body Slam paralysis or getting OHKOed by Return. I dunno what makes you think Amoonguss walls Snorlax considering:
252+ Atk Choice Band Snorlax Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 220-259 (50.92 - 59.95%) -- 85.55% chance to 2HKO

Ghost types are somewhat annoying, as well as Steel-types, but that's what partners are for. Do you think people would stay in if their Cofagrigus got hit by a Crunch? No, so you should naturally switch as well. It's your fault for staying in with your Snorlax and making it dead weight against a certain thing. Snorlax is meant to handle special attackers, not physical attackers, so stop acting like its a physical/mixed wall. You also act like Snorlax is ridiculously easy to counter, when switching into it isn't an easy task. I don't see Snorlax as much as a special wall as much as a good offensive Pokemon that can check many a whole variety of special attackers without much trouble, which no Pokemon I know of is easily capable of doing as much as Snorlax.

 

[666lumberjack]

Exbo, I don;t have time to write a full response t your post right now, but I just wanted to clarify the "Scarf Flygon vs. CB Snorlax" situation. I'll tell you exactly what happens. Flygon Outrages for about 50%, because scarf Flygon is a really mediocre set and very rarely worth using (and I say this even though Flygon is my favourite Pokemon) and Snorlax almost always OHKOs it in return with CB Return.

If you ever find yourself using Scarf Flygon, people, think long and hard about whether it's truly doing a better job than Mienshao, because the answer is usually no.

 

[Shy Glizzy]

Snorlax almost always beats Cofag 1v1.
252+ Atk Choice Band Snorlax Crunch vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Cofagrigus: 184-218 (57.68 - 68.33%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Cofagrigus Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 200 SpD Snorlax: 104-124 (22.55 - 26.89%) -- possible 4HKO
+2 252+ SpA Cofagrigus Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 200 SpD Snorlax: 208-246 (45.11 - 53.36%) -- 32.03% chance to 2HKO

If they switch in, you outspeed and 2HKO.
If you come in Trick Room, Shadow Ball then you win with about 50%. Come in on HP Fighting you win with around 25%. If you come in on Nasty Plot, then you win 68% of the time.

 

[Exbo]

There are too many of you and I'll stop insisting

Get a hint, everyone.
I'm just going to reply to what makes me think you DIDN'T READ AT ALL

Flygon Outrages for about 50%, because scarf Flygon is a really mediocre set and very rarely worth using (and I say this even though Flygon is my favourite Pokemon) and Snorlax almost always OHKOs it in return with CB Return.
[...]If you ever find yourself using Scarf Flygon, people, think long and hard about whether it's truly doing a better job than Mienshao, because the answer is usually no.

I said mid-late game... implying that the opponent's pokes are weakened...
Plus I did mention Mienshao.

Snorlax is meant to handle special attackers, not physical attackers, so stop acting like its a physical/mixed wall.

Don't tell me, tell all the Snorlaxes I've OHKOed. Plus nobody expects Nidoking to carry Superpower, and even an expected one from a Tornadus isn't greatly appreciated.

Snorlax almost always beats Cofag 1v1 [calcs]

Good. What about BRNlax?

This is my last post on Snorlax, like really this time. Let's move on...

 

[shadowpandax]

I read your entire post, but i found it full of inaccurate information that i might as well reply. Also, I don't get the point of of Superpower Nidoking when Focus Blast hits Snorlax harder. I guess accuracy, but considering how little it does from a 4 Attack neutral attacking Nidoking, I would never use it also considering the attack drops.

 

[Bassmaster4]

So... With all that talk about Snorlax done, I think we need to talk about Flygon. I don't think that it deserves to be A-Rank. Its below average stats of 80-100-80-80-80-100 make almost every set it uses to be not threatening.

The most common set, the Choice Scarf one, is done by Mienshao, but better, and Mienshao doesn't have to lock itself into an Outrage-like move when it feels like doing something useful. Also, Flygon is outclassed as a Scarfer by Darmanitan and Heracross, too. Sure, Flygon has a good movepool, but its stats are just too low to make good use of it, especially when Flygon is almost required to run Jolly Scarf due to its competitive Speed tier.

The other common set is the Choice Banded, and I feel like it's outclassed there too by Heracross. Heracross's superior Attack stat and great abilities make it able to sweep through whole teams, while Flygon's low Attack stat make it a little bit of a threat, but can also be easily outsped, especially if it runs Adamant.

The only real thing going for Flygon is his typing, which offers him two excellent dual STABs, but that's about it. Flygon is also very predictable due to its ability to only run two viable sets. All of my reasons given above should be enough reason to drop Flygon down to B-Rank

 

[PTJon7]

You're discounting the fact that Flygon is a Dragon type. There are two in UU, and only 3 pokemon in the tier that resist Dragon. This makes Flygon one of the best clean up sweepers in the tier, thanks to its base 100 speed it outspeeds/ties with every Scarfer besides Mienshao.

Flygon is not outclassed at all by Darmanitan or Heracross as a Scarfer. First of all Flygon is faster, which is huge when it comes to Scarf users in UU. Darmanitan's typing and main attack in Flare Blitz also makes it much more frail than Flygon, and Heracross' wide spread use means most teams have solid ways to deal with it.

Flygon also doesn't have to scurry in fear of Ghost types or users of Protect like Mienshao does, and is a whole lot less frail than Mienshao in general. Saying Flygon is predictable isn't really valid, Darmanitan, Swampert, Shaymin, Sharpedo, and Heracross are all just as predictable as Flygon.

How does Heracross outclass Flygon as a Band user? They have completely different move sets and Heracross is significantly slower. Flygon can freely spam Outrages much easier than Heracross since as I said before: only 3 things in UU resist Outrage.

 

[atomicllamas]

On top of what PTjon7 said it is also immune to spikes/t-spikes and resists stealth rocks while having access to U-turn. This is actually the most wonderful thing possible for a choice user. Because of this and Flygon's decent 80/80/80 defenses Flygon can switch in multiple times throughout the match and spam earthquake/outrage/u-turn as only Bronzong resists the combination of Flygon's STABs (I think). Definitely an A rank mon Imo.

 

[Aecor]

If you rely on Victini to come in on Shaymin, then idk what you're doing. Btw Shaymin will not stay in when Victini comes into it. And hey man, if you think Meinshao shouldn't be +Spe, then you can go ahead and follow your own advice and run a adamant CB Mienshao team and see how far you get =].

Why waste my time on someone who insists that running a +Atk/Spa nature is more essential when said poke is in a very sensitive 100 Base tier.

I'm sure you don't read, seeing as your logic isn't quite sound, but here's a quote I'll leave you with, "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."


@ Flygon Post:

It has solid dual-typing, crippled only by Ice-Shards from Piloswine and Weavile. Levitate allows it to enter the field with little costs (SR resistant, immunity to spkes). It can spam either of it's high power-STABS so long as you think (What I'm saying is, Mienshao cannot break through Umb safely due to protect). And the best part of Flygon is that it maintains momentum via U-Turn. Plus, base 100 Scarfers are pretty good, outspeeding Scarfed 90's and 95's, granted you use +Spe Nature--which you should always do for hit and runners.

And by the way, you misinterpreted the post before...you were saying Mienshao needs +Spe to outspeed +Spe 100, if every player were like you (run +Spa/Atk nature on Base 100 (((example being Victini))), wouldn't you be able to run +Atk/Spa nature on base 105 Pokes? I think you should brush up on your comprehension skills. ^^^^ Above quote, please look it up.

 

[relaunched]

Why waste my time on someone who insists that running a +Atk/Spa nature is more essential when said poke is in a very sensitive 100 Base tier.

I'm sure you don't read, seeing as your logic isn't quite sound, but here's a quote I'll leave you with, "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

Come on man, just cut it out. You're being a tool to others by disrespecting them and often ignoring what they have to say. I've also got to disagree with that quote you posted. If people never say stupid shit and instead keep their opinions to themselves, they are much less likely to learn that their beliefs are in fact stupid. Plus this advice is hard to follow except by being silent in general, because if one believes something stupid, they probably think it's smart. Probably the closest true parallel to your quote is the fact that when you're new to an area you should probably be listening and asking lots of questions rather than forming too many solid opinions yet, but that's still not keeping your mouth shut.

In such a vast and mysterious world, every human is a fool, and there's no point in trying to hide it, because it's already obvious.