The UU Viability Ranking Thread

But the fact that Flygon has base 100 Attack, and needs to lock itself into Outrage, which makes it easily revenge-killable, can't be forgotten. When I run a Scarfer, I want something that can OHKO frail threats. Flygon doesn't even do that sometimes, and if something resists EQ, it's forced to Outrage, and almost always be picked off by the ever-so-common Scarf Mienshao. Especially in a tier where Scarfers are near forced to run Jolly, stacked with 100 base Attack means it's just weak overall. And so what if Mienshao fears Cofagrigus? It's not like Flygon can stay in and fire off low-powered Earthquakes and plan on killing Cofagrigus, along with the fear of being Burned if he uses Outrage. Flygon just doesn't do enough damage output in order to be A-Rank.
 
A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.

At the risk of sounding clichéd, this seems like Flygon to me. Choice Scarf Flygon is pretty good at cleaning or at least doing some damage to very offensive teams. Really I think the better set is Choice Band Flygon, which has very respectable damage output. Outrage + Earthquake + Fire Punch gives it everything it needs to hit any UU Pokemon hard, while U-turn is a great move for any Choice user. As an A-Rank reference point besides Flareblitz's guideline, Flygon is on a similar level to Heracross and Darmanitan. While the latter two are much more powerful, Flygon makes up for this by being less easily walled by anything.
 
Flygon just doesn't do enough damage output in order to be A-Rank.
I find it perculiar that you claim a Pokemon with maybe 3-4 solid defensive counters in the entire tier "doesn't do enough damage". Perhaps you have only tried the scarf set - I agree, it's pretty sub-par, and very difficult to consider for a teamslot over Mienshao. Choice Band Flygon, however, is a whole different ball game. There are basically 4 viable steels in UU - Cobalion, Bisharp, Empoleon and Bronzong. Of these, the middle two are effortlessly OHKOd by EQ and can easily take over 50% from Outrage if they are running offensive sets (so all the time for Bisharp). Cobalion survives EQ only if it is the utility set, and even then has a pretty good chance to die if there are any hazards on the field. That leaves Bronzong, who admittedly walls you to hell and back, but it can't actually do much back and is very easy to U-turn out of into any one of UU's half-dozen threatening Fire-types.

Of course, you don't necessarily have to be steel-typed to wall a dragon. The only Pokemon seen "reasonably often" in UU that can take two Outrages from Flygon with SR up are Physically defensive Porygon2 (the tank set is easily 2HKOd), Defensive Suicune, Tangrowth, Cresselia, Gligar and Defensive Hitmontop with Intimidate. Many of these Pokemon are easily brought into KO range by a little spike support, leaving Tangrowth, Cresselia and Gligar as the only really solid answers. Granted, Flygon can't really get past these unless they have already come in earlier in the match, but the first two are pretty damn uncommon. Flygon's access to U-turn (which both Cresselia and Tangrowth are also weak to) makes it pretty easy to come right out of them as they switch in. Not only that, Gligar, probably the most reliable of the three, can't actually do a whole lot back besides stall for Outrage confusion or hit you with Toxic - if it does choose to Toxic you, it also chooses to get 3HKOd, so realistically it's just going to end up spamming Roostto avoid an untimely death. Even if you don't U-turn this makes it pretty easy to bring something like Kingdra in (who happens to be a fantastic offensive partner) and force it out.

Pokemon without solid bulk are usually easily OHKO'd, and even bulkier stuff like 252 HP Zapdos and Victini can be OHKOd after SR. Honestly if you've never used Flygon's CB set I don't think you're qualified to comment on it as a Pokemon. It has a unique combination of nigh-unresisted STAB, raw power and practical hazard immunity that makes it incredibly tough for slower teams to deal with.

That said, it doesn't quite have the movepool and stats to be an S-ranked Pokemon. It struggles a bit more against very fast teams and generally isn't that durable, but it's not fragile either and said fast teams will often lose a Pokemon every time it gets a chance to attack. I have very little experience with the LO set (although I keep planning to try it) but I imagine it plays quite similarly but requires more hazard support, so I would say Flygon does lose out in the versatility category.
 
Flygon also has 2 other sets that make it A-ranked, though they are less common than the Scarfed sets, which are Special + Banded Set. The Special set is an effective lure, being able to remove some of Flygon's common counters; however, leaves it vulnerable to new counters, the specials walls of UU.

The Banded set hits so hard. It 2HK's Bold Suicine after 1 switch into SR's. It has a very respectable 100 speed-tier, just outspeeding Jolly Darmanitan and PZ. It has useful resistances, and only a small handful of Pokemon can safely shrug off its attacks.

And I think the most important trait to stress is the fact that it has levitate and it's a ground type. That grants it 2 immunities under normal circumstances (no soak + gravity), and it isn't SR weak. Scouts would kill for that...namely Mienshao, Victini, etc. It has little cost in terms of bringing it into battle. I do not see how Flygon is anything below A-ranked. It certainly isn't S-ranked, but it's quite appropriate to be in A rank.
 
Why would you use something with base 80 Spa as a special attacker? And if it gets rid of the common Flygon counters, i'm assuming the pokemon that counter physical Flygon.... but then you can't run physical Flygon, for you're running special... so it doesn't matter if it kills Flygon counters.

Also, slap a Choice Band onto anything and it becomes a powerhouse. But i'd rather run CB Shao because it still hits harder than CB Flygon and it's faster. Mienshao isn't weak to hazards either, you can run Regenerator to heal him up, and he resists the only hazards in 90% of games, which is Stealth Rocks.
 
Mienshao is susceptible to all hazards...Spikes, T-Spikes, and Rocks. Flygon can spam his STABS without fearing HP loss from missing. Mixed Flygon was something that was heavily used in 4th Gen OU...it's still somewhat viable in today's Meta. Why are you comparing Flygon to an even higher-ranked Poke? We're not saying Mienshao isn't a Powerhouse, we're saying that Flygon can act accordingly--either an avenger or a power-house. It's clearly not better than Mienshao which is why it's in A rank.
 
Why would you use something with base 80 Spa as a special attacker? And if it gets rid of the common Flygon counters, i'm assuming the pokemon that counter physical Flygon.... but then you can't run physical Flygon, for you're running special... so it doesn't matter if it kills Flygon counters.

Also, slap a Choice Band onto anything and it becomes a powerhouse. But i'd rather run CB Shao because it still hits harder than CB Flygon and it's faster. Mienshao isn't weak to hazards either, you can run Regenerator to heal him up, and he resists the only hazards in 90% of games, which is Stealth Rocks.
No spikes in 90% of games... I'm sorry, are you even playing UU? If I had to take a guess I'd say at least 60-70% of the teams I see are running a Spiker... there is pretty much no reason to ever not use Spikes since it's basically impossible to make a team that doesn't mind them... Pokemon like Chandelure with very few non-grounded checks really disrupt that plan - of course the Spikers we have don't fit on every team, but there are plenty of them and they certainly fit on most.

I think your point about Mienshao being stronger is just demonstrating a misunderstanding between what we're arguing. Fighting types are really great in UU, so every competent team has, at the very least, two fighting resists. A very large fraction also run ghosts, because they are generally pretty good in UU, and because they protect the aforementioned spikes from Rapid Spinners. This means Mienshao has a whole ton of obstacles to deal with before it can safely spam its STAB. In contrast, UU has two good dragons, and neither particularly fears UU's few steel types. Flygon will often go into a game with no resists to deal with. This is a huge deal. Additionally, Flygon has a secondary STAB, which means it can quite easily deal with all but one of those dragon resists. What does Mienshao have to hit bulky ghosts? Neutral unSTABed Stone Edge? You say that Mienshao can use Regenerator to mimic Flygon's hazard immunity, but if you do you now have to deal with bulky poisons as well. You'll struggle to 4HKO Gligar, a Pokemon notoriously hard to wear down, whereas Flygon hits it for nearly half. For what it's worth, I should point out the all of Flygon's common moves are 100% accurate, whereas Mienshao is very prone to missing at crucial moments.

I should clarify that I'm not saying Mienshao is bad, although I would question the merit of a CB set. Mienshao is certainly a lot stronger in a hypothetical metagame where there are no resistances. UU isn't a metagame with no resistances, though. Flygon's strength comes from the fact that even its best answers are not really very good answers - at worst, they are probably getting 3HKOd. Additionally, there are very few good answers to it - steel types are rare, and very physically bulky Pokemon are usually not hugely difficult to wear down. In contrast, UU is filled with ghosts and bulky fighting resists, and Mienshao's best answers are really good answers. The lack of Flygon's complimentary STAB means it has to lock itself into weak coverage moves to beat checks. Sure, you can use HP Ice to beat Gligar, but if you do you just let your strongest attacker become setup fodder. Granted, EQ isn't that hard to abuse, but a weak HP Ice off uninvested base 90 is still far easier. I honestly don't think they're really comparable - Mienshao is certainly going to clean more effectively lategame, after its counters have been removed, but I don't think that's really what a CB attacker should be doing. It should be smashing walls earlygame by 2HKOing almost the entire tier. And Flygon does that job a whole lot better.

EDIT: I forgot to mention, mixed Flygon is a pretty bad set unless you are desperate to get rid of Gligar beacuse it doesn't actually really beat anything CB Flygon doesn't, other than putting a much bigger dent in Gligar and Slowbro.
 
Why Flygon is A-Rank
A through and through thoughtfully prepared analysis by Warb
("it took me more than 2 minutes to write it down I swear")

  1. Dragon / Ground
  2. STAB Outrage / EQ
  3. U-Turn
  4. 100 Base Speed
  5. 100 Base Attack
  6. Dragon / Ground
  7. STAB Outrage / EQ
  8. Levitate
  9. U-Turn
  10. Gets a Same-Type-Attack-Bonus on Dragon- and Ground-type moves
  11. U-Turn
  12. Has more then 95 Base Speed
  13. 100 Base Speed
  14. STAB Outrage / EQ
And this concludes my presentation, any questions?


Trolling aside, Flygon has nearly unresisted dualSTABs, a very good speed tier and access to U-Turn. Base 100 atk may not be much compared to UU's other offensive powerhouses, but the combination of high base power plus STAB, as well as the amazing coverage of Dragon / Ground, makes it a fearsome attacker in its own right. Equipped with a Choice Band, your opponent has to think very carefully about what to switch into its attacks.


If you really want to compare CB Mienshao to CB Flygon, here's some food for thought:
Off the top of my head I can think of 3 Pokemon that can fearlessly switch into any of CB Mienshao's attacks (Golurk, Gligar and Cofagrigus, although OTR cofagrigus takes a buttton from banded adamant Stone Edge, it still fails to 2HKO.
Thinking about Flygon, there is literally NOTHING you want to switch into a CB Outrage that is not totally demolished by EQ, while only the most defensively invested Bronzongs avoid the 2HKO from Fire Punch.


Dragon is a fantastic offensive typing in UU, Dragon / Ground is an even more fantastic offensive typing. Now throw in U-Turn, decent base ATK and more than decent base speed and there you go.

This fact alone makes Flygon an A-rank pokemon without any doubt, that that was just the tip of the iceberg.

 

TPO3

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...I'm a bit lost at what is being argued at this point. I saw a post mentioning that Flygon should move down to B-rank, and I /think/ that's still the point? However, CB Mienshao (lol wut?) and Spikes have been dragged into this, and I'm still trying to decipher everything. If somebody can respond to this post and let me know if I'm doing it wrong, that would be great. Hiding the first part of this because it has to do with FastFlygon's paragraph on spikes, as well as CB Mienshao, both of which have absolutely nothing to do with the question of where Flygon should be tiered.

Anyways, @FastFlygon: I realize you're trying to make a point about spikers, but let's not over-compensate please. 60-70% of games? lol. The most popular spiker is Roserade which A) isn't even used in one-third of the total amount of the games you would suggest and B) Has 2 extremely useful moves that are incompatible with Spikes (see: Leaf Storm, Sleep Powder), so it very rarely is actually using them. The most common spiker is probably Froslass, which doesn't even make it to one in ten teams. There are also /several/ reasons not to use spikers on your teams, including the fact that there's not very many of them, they give up free turns, and many cleaners or sweepers don't benefit from them. If you're running a Scarf Heracross or Mienshao as a cleaner, there's no point in laying down spikes when your main roadblocks are either Pursuit bait or Flying-types. However, I don't even understand why you two are arguing spikes, since it has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Flygon is immune to them, and while Mienshao isn't, it has Regenerator, so it shrugs off even 3 layers of spikes in addition to Stealth Rock just by clicking "u-turn."

As for CB Mienshao, lolwut. That is a really dumb set. Honestly, if you want Mienshao to hit harder, just use Reckless. You 2HKO almost everything you want to (Nidoking, Offensive Zapdos, etc.) and you don't give up the awesome speed that Scarf Mienshao can possess. I mean, you're going to be locked into an attack anyways. The only thing you lose is Regenerator, but honestly, if you're letting Mienshao take multiple hits, or multiple turns of multiple layers of Spikes damage, you're playing the game wrong. If you want a CB Fighting-type, use Guts Heracross or Intimidate Scrafty.


Trying to compare Scarf Flygon to Scarf Mienshao is not going to get us anywhere. While they might generally serve the same purpose (cleaning up) they both require very different kinds of support. One likes to have a Pursuiter while the other requires significantly more residual damage before cleaning. One can run Reckless and nuke things while the other has to bide its time. One has an _almost_ unresisted STAB while the other doesn't. Arguing these two serves no purpose, because they both have very different perks and very different weaknesses. If you want to determine where Flygon should be, you need to look at Flygon individually, not the other scarfers in the tier, since the other scarfers just don't work in the same setting.

Now, Flygon's A-rank has been brought into question. I feel A-rank is the appropriate place for Flygon, and there are a few reasons for this. First of all, Flygon's CB set is absolutely ridiculous. It literally just switches in and nukes things. Even Bronzong, which "walls" Flygon takes a hefty amount from a CB-boosted Fire Punch, and the rest of Flygon's "counters" like Slowbro and Suicune get 2HKO'd with Stealth Rock up. So unless you're one of those cool people that uses Eviolite Piloswine, every time you face a CB Flygon, something is going to die. Secondly, While Flygon might be "frail" (if 80/80/80 can really be considered frail), it has a ton of great resistances and immunities. It's immune to Thunderbolt and Volt Switch, it's immune to Earthquake and Earth Power, it resists Stone Edge, and it resists V-Create, Flare Blitz, and Fire Blast. Flygon can actually switch in at least once, if not multiple times if pulled off correctly. Thirdly, base 100 Speed on a Scarfer in UU is GREAT. It is the third fastest scarfer in the tier, which means that it serves as a valuable check to fast pokemon, such as Scarf Heracross, Scarf Darmanitan, +1/+1 Kingdra, and Agility Empoleon. B-rank is "Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche." I think the points I brought up show that Flygon is definitely more than this.

That leaves us with the choice of A and S-rank, and I think there are a couple of things that prevent Flygon from being S-rank. S-rank pokemon need very little support, and Flygon definitely needs more than "very little." Flygon has just a few flaws that keep it out of S-rank. First off, base 100 is really disappointing if you aren't using CB. If you try to just come in and sweep things with the Scarf set, you're doing it wrong. You need to wear down your opponents' walls first, and you have to wear the especially defensive ones down pretty well. Second, Flygon's STAB attacks all have huge drawbacks. One is Earthquake, which fails against Flying-types and Levitaters, one is Outrage, which locks you in place for 2-3 turns, and one is Dragon Claw which is rather pathetic as far as damage output goes. Since Flygon is most likely using a Choiced item, you have to play pretty carefully. If you click the wrong move at the wrong time, you just might get screwed. Thirdly, it's especially susceptible to priority. It resists little (if any??) priority attacks at all, and one of its attacks locks it in place. It's like sticking a giant target on Flygon that says "KILL ME WITH PRIORITY." As long as there's a Steel-type or a Priority attacker on your opponent's side of the field, you can't just spam Outrage, even with a CB set. You might lose your Flygon too early. And honestly, let's face it. Even if you do run a CB set, no matter how hard you try, Gligar and Porygon2 always can and always will shit on you. Even though Flygon has these few shortcomings, they can be played around, whether it's through U-turn, the extremely rare Magnet Pull/Arena Trap/Shadow Tag, or a spot-on sense of prediction. This is why Flygon deserves to be A-rank. Because it can KO a very large portion of the metagame, but it needs a bit of support to work off of to do so.
 

kokoloko

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hi

i have a question

why is CB mienshao even being mentioned, given that is isn't (and should not ever be) a thing? why in the world would i lock it into its attacks when it can just use regen to gain the LO recoil back? sure CB reckless HJK does shit like 2hko slowking with sr and spikes but fuck that is a horrible tradeoff if you have to predict that much.

ps. you really do want regen on the lo set so you can afford to throw hjk around even when there's ghosts around. otherwise you're handicapping yourself too much.

moral of the story: shut the fuck up about cb mienshao; it doesn't exist.
 
We might as well rank each pokemon individually.
I don't think further tiering is necessary, especially since there are categories with 1 to 3 pokemon and others with half the tier. That's just my opinion.
Anyway,
I didn't see Floatzel anywhere in the ranks. Floatzel is a viable swift swim sweeper on manual rain teams with any combination of Life orb/CB and Waterfall/Aqua jet/Ice punch/Crunch/Return/Rain dance/Switcheroo.
However, it has many checks and counters, the worst ones being Shaymin, Blastoise, Milotic and Suicune.
Nominating Floatzel for E-rank! Who's with me? :D
 

CoolStoryBrobat

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We might as well rank each pokemon individually.
I don't think further tiering is necessary, especially since there are categories with 1 to 3 pokemon and others with half the tier. That's just my opinion.
Anyway,
I didn't see Floatzel anywhere in the ranks. Floatzel is a viable swift swim sweeper on manual rain teams with any combination of Life orb/CB and Waterfall/Aqua jet/Ice punch/Crunch/Return/Rain dance/Switcheroo.
However, it has many checks and counters, the worst ones being Shaymin, Blastoise, Milotic and Suicune.
Nominating Floatzel for E-rank! Who's with me? :D
lol trollin hard I see. I'll take the high road and make a serious response...It's outclassed by Kabutops as a Swift Swimmer in UU, who even finds itself having trouble with the same Pokemon. Floatzel is surprisingly frailer, with those 85/55/50 defenses compared to Kabutops' 60/105/70 ones. Offensively it's fair to say that Floatzel does outspeed and has just 10 less Atk, and has access to Waterfall and Aqua Jet as Kabutops does, however Kabutops has that STAB Stone Edge which is more useful for its coverage alongside the superior boosting move in Swords Dance, which when paired with Aqua Jet, makes Kabutops a potential threat both inside and outside of rain. On top of that, Floatzel has coverage almost identical to Sharpedo's in terms of the sets it'd most commonly run.

Don't get me wrong, I do think Floatzel's a cool Pokemon, but I don't think he's got much credibility in UU due to Sharpedo and Kabutops who can both do its job equally well, in rain (though Sharpedo can do it out of rain once you factor in Speed Boost).

And while we're at it, I nominate Kabutops for C-Rank, as someone else mentioned earlier in the thread. I don't think Kabutops is the best spinner in UU, as it's pretty frail, but it can easily pull off an offensive rapid spin set. In my opinion though, Kabutops is in full form when it's sweeping in rain. I've used it on a rain setup and was just mindblown at the amount of power it has at +2. The potential it has to sweep is really dependent on A) Rain, B) Risking a Swords Dance off its frail uninvested bulk, and C) Sometimes landing a Stone Edge. It has a lot of power but many flaws like these are what I think would hold it back to at least C-Rank.
 
lol trollin hard I see.
Not at all.
I'll take the high road and make a serious response...It's outclassed by Kabutops as a Swift Swimmer in UU, who even finds itself having trouble with the same Pokemon. Floatzel is surprisingly frailer, with those 85/55/50 defenses compared to Kabutops' 60/105/70 ones. Offensively it's fair to say that Floatzel does outspeed and has just 10 less Atk, and has access to Waterfall and Aqua Jet as Kabutops does, however Kabutops has that STAB Stone Edge which is more useful for its coverage alongside the superior boosting move in Swords Dance, which when paired with Aqua Jet, makes Kabutops a potential threat both inside and outside of rain. On top of that, Floatzel has coverage almost identical to Sharpedo's in terms of the sets it'd most commonly run.

Don't get me wrong, I do think Floatzel's a cool Pokemon, but I don't think he's got much credibility in UU due to Sharpedo and Kabutops who can both do its job equally well, in rain (though Sharpedo can do it out of rain once you factor in Speed Boost).

And while we're at it, I nominate Kabutops for C-Rank, as someone else mentioned earlier in the thread. I don't think Kabutops is the best spinner in UU, as it's pretty frail, but it can easily pull off an offensive rapid spin set. In my opinion though, Kabutops is in full form when it's sweeping in rain. I've used it on a rain setup and was just mindblown at the amount of power it has at +2. The potential it has to sweep is really dependent on A) Rain, B) Risking a Swords Dance off its frail uninvested bulk, and C) Sometimes landing a Stone Edge. It has a lot of power but many flaws like these are what I think would hold it back to at least C-Rank.
Bear in mind that Floatzel is only viable with Rain, in which case opposing Kingdra are very serious threats.
And Floatzel does outspeed the fastest Kingdra in the rain with about 140 speed EVs, the rest can be 110 HP and 252 atk, so it is also a tiny bit bulkier than you thought.
Kabutops' options are to tank a hit (LOL) and either retaliate with quad resisted moves (lol) or Stone miss.

And still, I didn't say A-rank... I said E-rank. That's not TOO farfetched. I do realise Sharpedos outclass it in some areas (though Sharpedo is hard to manage in Rain because he has to kill rain turns to get his boosts)

However, with Kingdra/Ludicolo out of the picture, things are different. I agree with Kabutops on C-rank, he does well.
 

TPO3

Never practice; Always perform.
Not at all.
Bear in mind that Floatzel is only viable with Rain, in which case opposing Kingdra are very serious threats.
And Floatzel does outspeed the fastest Kingdra in the rain with about 140 speed EVs, the rest can be 110 HP and 252 atk, so it is also a tiny bit bulkier than you thought.
Kabutops' options are to tank a hit (LOL) and either retaliate with quad resisted moves (lol) or Stone miss.

And still, I didn't say A-rank... I said E-rank. That's not TOO farfetched. I do realise Sharpedos outclass it in some areas (though Sharpedo is hard to manage in Rain because he has to kill rain turns to get his boosts)

However, with Kingdra/Ludicolo out of the picture, things are different. I agree with Kabutops on C-rank, he does well.
Why on earth would you ever tank a hit with Kabutops? With rain up, it's just going to outsped almost everything and start KOing stuff. While Kabutops might be slower, under Swift Swim, it's not really relevant. Even while rain isn't up, base 80 speed still isn't terrible. Kabutops also has higher attack, swords dance, and higher Defense which is important for opposing Priority attacks, such as Extreme Speed or Sucker Punch. Sharpedo also does the same exact thing as Floatzel, but it has Speed Boost, so it can literally just start setting up for the kill at any point during the game. So while Floatzel might be workable under the Rain, there's no point when Kabutops and Sharpedo can do the same exact thing with less support and more success.
 

atomicllamas

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From what I understand, the only pokemon that are listed in E rank are those that have enough usage to be UU, but definitely shouldn't. You should only nominate E rank pokemon who are in UU or BL2. As much as I love Floatzel (its on my NU team), it doesn't deserve to be D rank, and therefore doesn't belong on the thread. Both in the rain and outside of it, Floatzel is outclassed by Kabutops, Kingdra, and Sharpedo as a physical sweeper. Outside of the rain it is outclassed by what has been mentioned, plus almost anything that has good physical offense and decent speed, Azelf works better as a choiced trick pokemon (so do many others, thats just my first thought), the only conceivable niche remaining for Floatzel. Floatzel should not be listed.
 

ScraftyIsTheBest

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Floatzel just isn't good in this metagame. There are too many dangerous threats that can take advantage of Floatzel's presence. It's bait for Raikou and Kingdra, two S-Rank threats, and it is easy to deal with in general. Kabutops and Ludicolo (and Omastar too) are better rain sweepers. The E-Rank is there for unviable Pokemon that are technically in the tier, like Munchlax in RU. Don't rank Floatzel.

I agree with Kabutops for C, also I still would nominate the RU Bug Three of Spiking (Accelgor, Scolipede, and Crustle) for C for reasons explained before.
 
Why on earth would you ever tank a hit with Kabutops? With rain up, it's just going to outsped almost everything and start KOing stuff. While Kabutops might be slower, under Swift Swim, it's not really relevant. Even while rain isn't up, base 80 speed still isn't terrible. Kabutops also has higher attack, swords dance, and higher Defense which is important for opposing Priority attacks, such as Extreme Speed or Sucker Punch. Sharpedo also does the same exact thing as Floatzel, but it has Speed Boost, so it can literally just start setting up for the kill at any point during the game. So while Floatzel might be workable under the Rain, there's no point when Kabutops and Sharpedo can do the same exact thing with less support and more success.
Because Kingdra has base speed 85 and Kabutops has base speed 80 and Floatzel has 115. On this earth.
Jesus christ does anyone even read?

And Sharpedo is going to lose the rain boost if he wastes too many turns switching in, protecting and boosting speed.
But you didn't read that either.

And the priority argument is semi-invalid because the Floatzel set I suggested (85/55/50 base, ~140 HP EVs) has more bulk than Sharpedo's lulzy (70/40/40 base, uninvested).


From what I understand, the only pokemon that are listed in E rank are those that have enough usage to be UU, but definitely shouldn't. You should only nominate E rank pokemon who are in UU or BL2. As much as I love Floatzel (its on my NU team), it doesn't deserve to be D rank, and therefore doesn't belong on the thread. Both in the rain and outside of it, Floatzel is outclassed by Kabutops, Kingdra, and Sharpedo as a physical sweeper. Outside of the rain it is outclassed by what has been mentioned, plus almost anything that has good physical offense and decent speed, Azelf works better as a choiced trick pokemon (so do many others, thats just my first thought), the only conceivable niche remaining for Floatzel. Floatzel should not be listed.
And I didn't even say they are equals or nominate it for D rank. I nominated Floatzel for E rank, the "worst of the worst".

Except if each pokemon listed has to have above a certain % of usage in UU. Floatzel has 0.1% for April which is, admittedly, too low.
 
Yea Kabutops, Accelgor, and Crustle for C-Rank are all things I could get behind. I honestly don't think Scolipede has enough of a niche over those two to constitute getting listed however. Accelgor is faster, Crustle has Sturdy, and Scolipede is actually weaker than both Accelgor and Crustle.

Why the heck are we discussing pokemon to be added to E-Rank. Honestly it's just a waste of time. There is no reason to use Floatzel in UU over so many superior Rain sweepers.
 

Molk

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Scolipede is actually weaker than both Accelgor and Crustle.

I dont really play UU much so i dont really have any experience with Scolipede (or Accelgor and Crustle) in the UU metagame but i just wanted to note that Scolipede actually hits harder than Accelgor despite its lower base Attack stat due to the significantly higher base power of Megahorn, as proven in the calcs below.

252 SpA Life Orb Accelgor Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 320-377 (93.84 - 110.55%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Scolipede Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 398-471 (116.71 - 138.12%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I dont really have enough metagame knowledge to say anything further on the matter, though, just wanted to point that out.
 

Chou Toshio

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I don't even know why we're talking Floatzel as swift swim sweeper-- as mentioned, Kabutops is completely superior, and the tier has Kingdra too.

The only reason I'd even think to use Floatzel is its stupid high Speed and access to Bulk Up and Baton Pass. It's got enough power to hurt stuff with a boost, and its Speed makes it easy to set up. Bulk Up softens the blows coming in. Floatzel's defensive stats are crap, but at least physical grass and electric attacks are relatively few and far between.

All in all, if you needed a Speedy bulk up passer, you'd probably just use... Mienshao. Durand and Scollipede are also really fast and have the physical bulk to set up and pass an SD without relying on bulk up's defense boosts.

As others mentioned, Floatzel is an inferior choice overall, but if I had to try to think of a niche for it, it wouldn't be as a pure sweeper. Any Floatzel set that didn't have Baton Pass would weird me out-- like, why Floatzel then?

Taunt and 115 Speed are pretty cool too-- but not having SR or Rapid Spin or any sort of bulk without bulk up boosting first makes it pretty pointless. Lead games are better left to Azelf.
 

TPO3

Never practice; Always perform.
Because Kingdra has base speed 85 and Kabutops has base speed 80 and Floatzel has 115. On this earth.
Jesus christ does anyone even read?
If you're going to ask if I can read, at least read yourself, lol. Kabutops isn't tanking hits because despite its "slow" speed, we're debating swift swim sweepers. Once rain is up, Kabutops outspeeds everything anyways. You don't need to tank any hits. Your point on kabutops's base 80 speed is obsolete because its speed is doubled. If you're trying to make the points that Kabutops takes hits from other swift swimmers like Kingdra or (god forbid) Floatzel, then that point is also irrelevent. If I'm using Kabutops, I'm not going to be dumb enough to set up Rain Dance when my opponent has a Swift Swimmer alive on their team.

And Sharpedo is going to lose the rain boost if he wastes too many turns switching in, protecting and boosting speed.
But you didn't read that either.
You waste one turn. One. Not that Sharpedo even needs the Rain anyways, because Base 120 Attack and the ability to run Adamant instead of Jolly is just stupidly powerful before factoring in Weather.

And the priority argument is semi-invalid because the Floatzel set I suggested (85/55/50 base, ~140 HP EVs) has more bulk than Sharpedo's lulzy (70/40/40 base, uninvested).
Once again, if you're going to lecture at me to read, please waste 20 seconds of your time to read my post. If you did read, you'd notice that I was saying Kabutops fares much better against all priority (except Mach Punch obviously.), since it has base 105 Defense as well as the fact that it resists Extremespeed. I said nothing whatsoever about Sharpedo doing good against priority. If your opponent has a priority attacker alive and you're sweeping with Sharpedo, you're doing it wrong.
 

atomicllamas

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Look at the OP, there are many pokemon not in UU even as high as A rank (Slowking)
Yes, because Slowking is viable in UU, unlike Floatzel, what is the point of putting something in E rank, that isn't in UU? The E rank says, "Don't use me! I am the worst of the worst." It doesn't even need to be said about Floatzel when its usage is ~.1%, we don't need to rank everything, especially unviable mons that are sitting in NU, that just makes the list cluttered and confusing.

TL;DR: There is no point in putting a non-UU or BL2 pokemon as E rank unless we are going to rank every single mon (which we aren't doing).
 

CoolStoryBrobat

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So in order to derail the ceaseless arguments flying around, what is you guys' take on Poliwrath? This quote from Grim Gregg pretty much says most of what I could say on it. His was a suggestion on Poliwrath for C-Rank which I agree with, though it doesn't seem anybody really replied, so I'm taking the liberty of bringing it back up.

I think Poliwrath is C Rank material. It does have under .5% usage, but it serves an important niche. Specifically this set-
Poliwrath (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Water Absorb
EVs: 132 HP / 252 Atk / 124 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Focus Punch
- Waterfall
- Substitute
- Encore

The purpose is to switch in and force out water types. It can also encore anything that's base 85 speed (no investment) that goes for a non-threatening move. Nidoqueen/King are excellent help here, preventing Toxic/T-wave on Poli while luring out waters. This completely changes the momentum of the match, forcing something to take a stab Focus Punch. Or you can encore whatever breaks your sub, ensuring you'll have a safe switch in next turn. Examples-

Roserade- You can F Punch and do 41-49% on 252hp/120def or encore it into Giga Drain
Raikou- F Punch does 79-93% on 4/0, 65-77% on 128/76
Zapdos- If you have a Ground type, encore it into T-bolt and then F Punch predicting the switch.

If you need an answer to waters, but also need a fire/water/rock/bug/dark resist, he's your man.
P.S. GG Sleep Talk Suicune.
I've used the Sub Bulk Up set, though I customized the EVs a bit to make sure I outspeed Blastoise (and Sub up on a Toxic), and honestly I can say it's been able to net some kills, sometimes even sweep, especially with good paralysis support. Poliwrath's got the niche of being one of the few Pokemon in the UU Metagame with Water Absorb who also has the movepool to abuse it (Sub, Encore, Focus Punch) against the things it switches in on. It's a nice shutdown to CroCune and it likes to take on a good few bulky waters in the tier (Choiced Azumarill, Empoleon lacking Grass Knot, Milotic, etc.) and proceed to do business as it sets up.

Only thing is, even though it can setup on Bulky Waters, it still takes a lot of power before it can start getting kills on them, and Slowbro just laughs at Poliwrath's efforts. Not only that but just as with other waters in the tier, it attracts Raikou, Roserade, Shaymin, and Zapdos very easily, so it usually has trouble finding a spot as a water-type on most teams, especially if it's partnered with other Waters who compound the team's weaknesses. Its speed is also a bit of a letdown, and the only things it can really affordably set up on are bulky Pokemon/walls who it threatens, otherwise it's going to be taking a nice hit or being deadweight.

As I said, I did use this Poliwrath with a bit of paralysis support, so the speed issue was mitigated, but I honestly think it's solid C-Rank material.

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are typically inferior to the Pokemon in the above ranks.
 
A lot of bulky water types have some sort of phasing move--for example: Suicine has Roar, Milotic has Dragon Tail or Haze, etc etc. I think it should be a low-C rank...it can do better than others if played correctly, but it really relies on prediction, something that isn't 100%. I've played against Poliwrath, and it's stupid easy to play against. If I switch in Suicine, I simply double to Roserade or something that can threaten it out.

As for Swift Swim sweepers...Scarfed Timid Raikou outspeeds almost all good swift swimmers since they run +Atk/SpA nature, just saying.

I don't understand why people are suggesting garbage to this thread. I'm not going to suggest Dragon Dance Dragonair because it has Shed-Kkin and Eviolite. Just because a Mon' isn't completely useless doesn't mean it has to be thrown on in the thread. This thread should be a reflection of how Mon's work in the UU Meta.
 

atomicllamas

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I support Poliwrath for C-rank, in addition to the more offensive sets listed, it is also a decently effective physical wall. It has wallish standards such as the ability to spread burn (scald) and the ability to phase (circle throw). Circle Throw also mitigates the raikou/roserade bait problem, as switching is just free damage for me, especially with spikes and rocks.

Its only form of recovery is rest-talk, which is unreliable, however, it can function as a poor man's Suicune with additional resistances to Bug, Dark, and Rock (that's stealth rock too) and an immunity to water (if it has water absorb, which it should). Unfortunately it is also gains weaknesses to flying and psychic, but Scarf Victini fails to 2HKO with Zen Headbut and only has a 3.13% chance to 2HKO a full health Poliwrath with bolt strike. With decent team support (C-rank), you can just switch out to another team mate to absorb the hit if you predict incorrectly. The only physical attackers that can do over 100% damage to Poliwrath, are Flying gem Archeops, Adamant Tangrowth, Flying Gem Tornadus, and Psycho Cut Choice Band Medicham, and none of those are exactly common. <--Not that those situations would ever happen in game, that was just to show that it can be a good wall.

I have been using it on a stall team, and it is a lot of fun, it pairs well with Cresselia (I play RU a lot, and don't miss this combo), Roserade, and a Steel/Rock type. Roserade can set spikes, as well as maintain some offensive pressure even without investment, while Cresselia can sponge all of the hits that Poliwrath can't as well as spread status, and the final member is there to set rocks and absorb the flying type moves at Poliwrath and Roserade.

Poliwrath is definately worthy of a spot in C-rank
 

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