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Gen 5 The UU Viability Ranking Thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 1, 2012.

  1. hilarious

    hilarious

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    DO i see a metagame revolving entirely around Snorlax???? No because I hope we would ban it before then lol!! Its not like the metagame revolves around any of the current S tier pokes except arguably Heracross (keeping those Nidoqueen healthy) and even less arguably raikou (keeping those Swampert alive). I see snorlax directly countering a few s threats, Raikou and Zapdos and A threats, Chandelure, Shaymin and Roserade. Somewhat counters Togekiss and Slowbro and Froslass and Meleotta. Do i see it as a potential suspect??? yes but I see everything as potential suspects because you never know!! well it wont sweep any team unassisted obviously but it can support teams without too much assistance because it counters 90% of UUs special attackers even with SR on the field and still a huge majority with one spikes and SR on the field. By which i mean its just not going to be broken by special attackers like Nidoqueen or offensive P2 even with some hazards.

    I dont understand how you got the answer no to all your questions, especially when you ask "can it directly counter s and a threats?" Yes, yes it can unless you are putting forward almost unreasonably unfavorable circumstances for Snorlax (it doesn't counter Zapdos since it might be below 80% and Zapdos might be Modest Specs and Zapdos got up Sr and Zapdos got up one spikes!!!).

    I know lots of people like offensive lax for that pursuit (hehe die xatu, die) but its hard to ignore Snorlax's defensive capabilities which are so enhanced with rest Talk and lets it more reliably counter many many many more special attackers.
  2. Doron

    Doron

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    Snorlax isn't S rank material because BW2 UU =/= GSC OU. Snorlax has unreliable recovery, a weakness to fighting type attacks, is terribly slow and therefore vulnerable to every (most?) physical attacker in the tier. Pursuit isn't unique in the slightest and there are plenty of other pokes that use pursuit just as well even if they don't have Snorlax's bulk.

    The other thing to remember about Snorlax is that it isn't Blissey or Eviolite Chansey. Special attacks can take it down, even without having to setup a handful of Calm Minds. Life Orb Nido can do a monstrous chunk to Lax with Focus Miss and the premier special attackers of the tier can wear Lax down quickly with LO/Specs TB or (usually when I use Raikou) Volt Switch.

    There's no doubt that Snorlax is A rank due to its ability to support the team and how little support it needs in return, but it just isn't as effective as it needs to be in order to be S rank. The same goes for Cofagrigus. He's not S rank. In fact, from what I've seen he may not even be A rank.
  3. TPO3

    TPO3 Never practice; Always perform.

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    No, but I don't see a metagame revolving around Zapdos, Crobat, or Kingdra either. The metagame doesn't have to revolve around pokemon for them to be s-tier. Sure, it definitely helps, but it's not neccessary. Crobat is S-tier because it beats what the metagame is revolving around (mainly Heracross and company.) Snorlax does much of the same. It takes any special attacks barring Focus Miss and pretty much walls them. CB also keeps Cofagrigus, Xatu, and other stuff in check.

    I'm rather skeptical of this so I did some calcs.
    Show Hide

    252/252 Timid Zapdos Thunderbolt @Life Orb vs 208 HP/176 SpDef Careful Snorlax (aka Standard ResTalk)
    27.68-32.36%- 4-5 hits to KO

    252/252 Timid Zapdos Thunderbolt @Life Orb vs 80 HP/176 SpDef Adamant Snorlax (aka CB/Offensive Lax)
    32.02-38.05%- 3-4 hits to KO

    +1 252/252 Timid Raikou @Life Orb vs 208/176 Careful Snorlax
    38.79-45.81%- 3

    +1 252/252 Timid Raikou @Life Orb vs 80/176 Adamant Snorlax
    45.52-52.64%- 2-3 hits to KO


    Factoring in Levtovers, +1 Raikou fails to 3HKO Snorlax, and the CB one is 2 shotted with a couple of max calcs... of it needs a turn to set up, which means Snorlax is just going to nail it with Earthquake. Zapdos is rendered basically useless. Oh and this is, of course, assuming that both of these pokemon are @Life Orb instead of Leftovers or Specs. (Remember, +1 boosted by life orb is better than just regular +1.) These are two of the premier special attackers in the tier, and they both get walled. The only special attacks that can really brings Snorlax down are the obscenely boosted ones, like Sheer Force Life Orb Focus Blast (which doesn't even OHKO), or +1 Kingdra Hydro Pump in the Rain. It's definitely not Blissey, but it's still pretty bulky if you ask me.

    I wouldn't exactly call it vulnerable to every physical attacker in the tier. More calcs.
    Show Hide

    252 Adamant Sharpedo Waterfall @Life Orb vs 208 HP/124 Def Careful Snorlax
    41.12-48.54% - 3 hits to KO

    252 Adamant Flygon Earthquake (Scarf) vs 208 HP/124 Def Careful Snorlax
    41.72-49.32% - 3 hits to KO


    Again, two very common physical attackers in the tier fail to land a 2HKO, while snorlax straight up OHKOs Sharpedo, and threatens to Paralyze Flygon. I'm not saying that snorlax should be walling physical attackers (because it shouldn't), but it's not as vulnerable as people say it is.
  4. Doron

    Doron

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    Hmm. Odd. It always seems that Specs Raikou does more damage to the Snorlax's that I fight. Maybe I'm just imagining things. Also, I was mostly joking about how weak Snorlax is to physical attackers (160/65 is pretty damn impressive, moreso for an offensive poke though) but with both of the examples that you gave it looks both of those attackers have a high chance to 2HKO Lax on the switch-in with SR up. And the second one is an unboosted STAB EQ from 100 base attack, pretty unimpressive.

    Actually, are you sure those calcs are correct? Those are both Adamant natured, and Sharpedo has a LO boosting its' hits (LO Waterfall hits 104 BP not counting stab) and 20 higher base attack. It should be hitting noticeably harder than Flygon.
  5. TPO3

    TPO3 Never practice; Always perform.

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    hmm... one of those calcs is wrong.

    they 2HKO yes, but you shouldn't be switching Snorlax into either of these mons. My point was more to be that Snorlax can tank one hit and still have a decent amount of health left while threatening to nail those two. It can rest later on if need be.
  6. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
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    hint: you aren't switching snorlax into physical attacks. blissey isn't dog shit because it's a bad salamence switch in.

    the point is, leaving in snorlax on a sharpedo or flygon trying to set up on you is totally plausible with his bulk

    the frustrating thing with snorlax for me has always been EVing. even the current analysis does its ev spread somewhat randomly: the CB spread is EVed to hit 500 HP / 300 SpD for no particular reason other than round numbers being cool. i'd be interested to see if any of the posters with more success with snorlax have come up with more clever EV spreads than me
  7. hilarious

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    According to this calculator http://honko.byethost8.com/coverage_calc.html a standard Sharpedo is doing 41.13 - 48.73% to a standard rest talk Snorlax with Waterfall. That same Snorlax will be taking 34.69 - 41.13% from Adamant Scarf Flygon's Earthquake.

    Of course if this was me I wouldn't be using Adamant Scarfgon (JOLLY ALWAYS JOLLY) or trying to sweep with Sharpedo until I know I can get a clean sweep (tho I have lucked out with Waterflinch before) so these are two of the least possibly relevant calcs you could find for lax imo.

    As to what Snorlax ev spread we should be using I think for defensive rest Talkers they shouldn't even be running that much defense, just max hp and spdef is the way to go. extra attack is out of the question imo for defensive lax since you generally aren't aiming to do damage to frail switch ins like Mienshao (who incidentally is a terrible Snorlax counter) and speed is generally useless apart from creeping vs other lax. Having maximum special bulk allows Snorlax to be the best possible switch in to some very strong special attackers which is what i use Snorlax for usually. generally I think its easier to fit defensive Snorlax on a team since it gets more switch ins and does not risk being set up on by attackers (when in doubt, phaze him out). Of course I am being, general. Snorlax I think is one of those Pokemon that should change ev spreads for diffrenet teams, if you are Sharpedo weak then you can try to buff up Snorlax's physical defense. Or if you need to nab something on the switch you can use an appropriate amount of attack. For now 252 hp/252/spdef is the way for me to go.
  8. TPO3

    TPO3 Never practice; Always perform.

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    Yeah, cim pretty much hit the nail on the head. You don't switch it in, but leaving it in is plausible.

    Also I realize Sharpedo and Adamant Flygon are not the most common physical attackers, but they hit kind of hard. I was making a point of how Snorlax can tank at least one powerful physical attack. I could have done calcs for more common stuff, like Jolly Flygon's Earthquake (which does less than 40% according to your calc.), Swampert's Waterfall, or Crobat's Brave Bird, but they would not have proven the point to the same extent that Adamant LO Sharpedo's Waterfall does.

    I wouldn't say extra defense should be completely out of the question for Snorlax I wouldn't Max/Max with Bold or anything silly like that, but 124 defense basically prevents some pkmn (like Flygon, Crobat, Sharpedo, etc.) from 2HKOing it. I mean base 160 HP/110 SpDef with a + SpDef nature doesn't really need the 252/252 spread. Thunderbolts and stuff are not going to do enough damage to justify leaving Raikou in to risk Paralysis. Sheer Force Focus Blast and stuff are always going to 2HKO. The only benefit I see is for stuff like Specs Hydro Pump in the Rain, which isn't very common. I'd rather run the Defense EVs for mons like Flygon.
  9. Salem1

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    I strongly disagree with Zoroark being B rank.

    1) You need to give it a focus sash and keep the field free from hazards if you want it to survive more than one hit from just about anything. Consider other special attackers such as Nidoking, who actually have meaningful resistances or immunities - for example Nidoking can come in after Heracross kills something and force it out, Zoroark just dies. When was the last time you were unrelentedly swept by a Psychic move?

    2) It's fast enough to outspeed a lot of things, but it will rarely OHKO anything - which means that if you use Zoroark before your opponent's team is half-dead, it'll just do some damage and then die from the return blow. This is not a problem for mons like Machamp that have the bulk to take a few hits, but it is a problem when you might as well get your defensive stats exchanged with Shedinja's. This is different from point one because point one deals with getting outsped, point two deals with when Zoroark outspeeds.

    3) Its STAB of which it only has one is rather poor. Dark is only super effective against Ghost and Psychic, the ghost effectiveness is particularily insignificant as Chandelure and Mismagius's defenses are poor to begin with anyway - and being good against Psychic lets him hit... Slowbro? Dark is however a quite strong type on powerful mons because just as it hits few types super effectively it is also resisted by few types, and Zoroark carries coverage against enemy Darks and Steels. However Zoroark is just not powerful enough to put Dark's neutral coverage to use due to lacking both crucial bulk AND a second typing that gives it key defensive immunities/resistances - because of this it's all too easy to quickly faint it one way or another.

    4) Priority with & against - Sucker punch is rather ineffective, as threats that outspeed it such as Coballion, Heracross etc. typically resist it. Putting sucker punch on your set also means that you will not have nasty plot without losing vital coverage and if you don't use nasty plot you lack needed hitting power. In return, Zoroark is a free kill for pretty much every priority mon there is as it either lacks super effective coverage (Azumarill) and/or is KOed before it can do anything (Hitmontop, Mienshao, Ambipom...).



    It's not a bad mon on paper but the realities of the meta work against it - it is infested with all the wrong pokemon for Zoroark. There are plenty of mons that are more powerful and faster, faster, slower and bulky enough to survive a hit and ohko or have priority - if Zoroark was a ghost type it would be like a Mismagius with another ability, but unfortunately for it Mismagius simply outdos it as it is immune to key moves like fake out, mach punch, close combat etc. and resists instead of being vulnerable to megahorn/u-turn, also coming with a neat ground immunity, actually letting it switch in on things in stark contrast to Zoroark. In addition, whenever an argument is made around Zoroark being good for anything other than using Illusion for counter removal, a mistake is made as there are mons that are better at whatever you want it to do except its unique reason for being on a team.

    And that is why I think it should be C rank. There is no excuse for Mismagius being C rank when Zoroark is B rank. It only has any advantage over it when the other player falls for Illusion and that lets it remove a counter, but that is not relying on the mon being good - it is relying on the mistake of your enemy.
  10. cim

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    I agree with your whole post except for this part. A STAB Psychic in UU is almost criminally safe. Hits every big threat for at least decent (and often SE) damage, and is mainly walled by Bronzong and Darks, which are both a bit stunted with the prevalence of Heracross. Several times I've been in a battle and realized that after eliminating one Pokemon or less, a Choice locked Psychic attack would always hit hard.
  11. Salem1

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    I agree with you about that, I just wanted to note that Psychic attacks are at least in my experience not very common (I do believe they could be on the rise though, it's just a matter of how players make the meta shift). A scarfed psychic attack coming off a great special attack is indeed a good thing to have right now. However, despite this, they are currently rare at best, people like you who realise their use excepted.
  12. IstheCakeReallyaLie

    IstheCakeReallyaLie

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    Could the party sprites be added next to the Pokemon for increased visibility?

    Ambipom for D Rank.
    List all of the things Ambipom can do. Do you have "mediocre sweeper", "lead with no hazards" and "death fodder" down? Because if you don't, that's basically all it can do. It goes down in one hit to any STAB'd attack. It has a niche, but it's not that great at it. (That's the entire reason for D Rank, right?)
    Magcargo likes this.
  13. Bent1ey

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    Actually Ambipom in C sounds good for me. He's fast, he hits for decent damage and has good coverage, it outspeeds Tornadus which is nice. He's certainly not a reliable sweeper and it doesn't deal enough damage to punch holes in your opponent's teams, it cannot really switch into much considering it's terrible bulk.
  14. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
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    ambipom is used by shitty battlers in shitty ways, but with the right set and a decent battler it's actually okay, hence why it's better than D-rank. C is really fitting especially with his newfound utility versus tornadus
  15. hilarious

    hilarious

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    I think Slowking should go down to C from B

    What role does Slowking fill? not offensive but defensive, correct? Slowbro is generally speaking far superior to Slowking physically correct? There is only physical and special defense in Pokemon so Slowking must be good in special defense correct? But Slowking has a typing that opens up weakness to Giga Drains, Shadow Balls, ThunderBolts, Bug Buzzes, Dark Pulses, Seed Flares etc etc, corect? In fact if you look at the UU list you will see every single UU special attacker has a move SE against Slowking or can set up on Slowking - easily 2hkoing or setting up a sweep - correct?

    Of course I am correct.

    So Slowkings only niche is being a full stop to Kingdra correct?

    Well thats actually incorrect since DD Kingdra can 2hko even if it gets phazed kingdra would win one on one if Kingdra was the last poke.

    If you think having a special wall lose to every single UU special attacker one on one is worthy of B rank solely because it is a fairly good Kingdra counter then fine, but I think Slowking really deserves C rank only.

    I also think Machamp should go down from B rank to C rank.

    Machamp is not very bulky as it still is getting KO'd by the strongest attackers like LO Darmanitan and 2hkod by only moderately powerful attacks like Outrage Scarfgon so its bulk in the long run means little. It has way too little speed so once its health falls below 50% or even 60% it becomes, as its analysis in last gen put it, nothing more than speedbump for most attackers. Because Heracross has become so powerful Heracross counters and checks are very prominent and by extension Machamp counters are too. It is C because it is typically inferior to Heracross and Mienshao and sometimes Virizion and Scrafty.

    I want to see Drudiggon move to C as well from B because frankly its not all that bulky (Kingdra is statistically bulkier if given an equal EV spread) and its niche is...it can hurt your opponent if it gets hurt itself (Rough Skin). I dont like having my tanks having to lose health to do their job. SR and a phazing move on a Dragon is cool but that means you are doing less damage with brute force, or hehe, sheer force (which I know is bad on him), so you are wasting perfectly good attack stat. He doesnt even beat most physical attackers since they can deal loads of damage while taking relatively little back.

    Gligar definitely in my opinion is C rank at best.
    I make my points pretty clear here and here. I do not think gaining immunity bumps it up a notch since nobody even uses Toxic except randomly on registeel and Umbreon. If they use Toxic you know your opp prolly sucks and you will win anyways.

    I seriously doubt Galvantula is B rank worthy but I never see it used or use it myself so whatever I guess it can stay if others feel like it should be B.

    yeah people seriously uu includes many pokemon but B tier pokemon are supposed to be pretty great still right? there definitely arent that many b ranks here

    Its nothing but Cryogonal is spelled wrong on the list. No e in it. And maybe Cryo deserves C rank but low C rank since its a spinner that is actually offensive somewhat and works better for teams that hate spikes but are ok with SR.

    I honestly think Dusclops deserves D rank because it has insane defense, that just can be argued with. Its one of the few Pokemon that cannot be OHKOd at 100% health by any move in UU with a proper ev spread (fun fact). With max defense and HP Dramanitan cannot 2hko even with Life Orb and SR unless it gets two high rolls. Those are fun facts but they help illustrate Dusclops essentially unrivaled defenses.

    More seriously it fufills a niche few other UU Pokemon can do for stall teams, it beats up last poke set up sweepers with Curse while being a spinblocker that blocks all the spinners unless they foresight you. And to be fair, if they Foresight you they would spin on you no matter what unless you were a specs Chandelure. It still maintains unrivalved defenses. It is also not set up fodder for lots of guys even though it lacks offense because nobody wants to set up on a wow unless you are like Houndoom which frankly is pretty ineffective with NP. Scrafty is one of the few who can set up and only if he runs Shed Skin.

    Dusclops is mediocre? Yes. Very mediocre? Maybe. Aggresively mediocre and the worst of the worst? I dont think so.
  16. TPO3

    TPO3 Never practice; Always perform.

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    Well first off, yes. Slowking is same as Slowbro, except with the Defense and Special Defense swapped. So... correct. <__<

    You make a good point in pointing out that almost every special attacker in UU has something super effective on Slowbro. However, Slowking's role is not to be an all-out special wall. If you are looking for that, something like Umbreon, Snorlax, or even Pory2 would be much better suited for that role. Slowking's "niche" isn't that it's a full stop to Kingdra. I really don't think any full stops to Kingdra exist. Slowking's "niche" is the better matchup against Kingdra while also stopping physical attackers, just like Slowbro. Not to the same extent, but with an EV Spread of 248 HP/12 Atk/248 Def, Slowking is a very good physically defensive pokemon thanks to its typing. Again, not an all out physical wall. That would be Slowbro or Cofagrigus. Slowking has the advantage of being able to stop a mixture of both attacks while giving the team a better matchup against Kingdra. Does it lose 1 on 1? Yes. But Slowking's role isn't to take Kingdra on 1 on 1. It comes in and phazes it away, or Thunder Waves it while crippling it, and letting teammates finish it off. Not to mention Kingdra's only way of beating Slowking has MAJOR drawbacks. It either has to be Specs HP Electric, or lock itself into Outrage, which makes Kingdra much more susceptible for the team to finish it off.

    Machamp going down to C I could agree with. Cryogonal being a C rank I could agree with. Druddigon going down I could agree with. I don't have enough experience on Galvantula to comment.

    Dusclops is E-rank IMO. I don't see any reason to use it. Sableye has Prankster, Cofagrigus has higher Defense, leftovers recovery, Mummy, and the ability to sweep. Froslass sets up Spikes. Mismagius has Taunt and Nasty Plot. Dusclops just kind of sits there, and its setup bait for quite a few pokemon, including but not limited to: Roserade, Suicune, Meleotta, Mew, Guts Heracross, Scrafty, and Zoroark. I really can't see it moving up past E-rank.
  17. hilarious

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    Please bear with me, I dont understand your position are you defending or attacking Slowking because the way you put it its not clear to me. You told me

    "You make a good point in pointing out that almost every special attacker in UU has something super effective on Slowbro."

    This is very very bad. I know you say Slowking is not a special wall and I hear you when you say it cannot stop Kingdra 100% and you're still saying its a B rank? Its not physically bulky at all even with your EV spread, its a very very bad thing if your bulky water cannot reliably switch in 252 att Rhyperior EQ with SR up. The following Megahorn will KO 85% of the time. That is accounting for the miss chance...Bulky Waters should be allowed to switch into Darmanitan (LO Flareblitz followed by U-turn is a KO). Arcanine can 2hko with Wild Charge or Crunch easily. You stand no chance if you want to switch into CB gon and little chance if you switch into even Scarfgon if you're not at 85%+ health.

    And all this for what? Taking only 100% from an attacking Zapdos instead of taking 130%? Its just not worth it with Slowbro aroun. Oh dont use Cofagrigus as a physical wall by the way it lacks the resists to switch into most things but Fighting types. Defensive cofag might work better but I want my walls to have something on fire types which Cofag doesnt really.

    Speaking of Cofag you mentioned he had higher defens than Dusclops which just isnt true. assuming they both run max hp max defense with bold Dusclops hits something like 280/590/440 defenses compared to 320/430/250 defenses. And I even made the rounding favorable to cofag. At the very best Cofagrigus is almost as bulky as Dusclops if you were to factor leftovers. Since you said "ability to sweep" I could have took it that you meant otr cofagrigus which is absolutely frail compared to Dusclops with 100 less defense points than defensive Cofag and about 250 less defense points than Dusclops.

    Yes Sableye has prankster but it is far less defensive and does not have access to Curse i believe, Crocune could beat it if it gets a boost and an early Scald burn.

    Missy and Froslass lack defenses and curse too while they have other roles completely.

    Yes Dusclops may allow things to set up on it but if you're running a defensive team which is where I said Dusclops should be used then you have many passive Pokemon and you should be able to respond to set up attacks and have a spinner for hazards.

    And did you see my Gligar suggestion (you responded to all parts of my post but that one)?

    Lastly I want to say I doubt Meleotta is A rank but I never use it and rarely play against it so um whatever I guess.
  18. WaterBomb

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    Did Registeel drop to RU? I thought it was UU still but it's not on any of these lists. Also Nidoking is WAY too low. It should be A Rank at least, possibly even S Rank due to it's amazing coverage and damage output.

    If Registeel is in fact still UU, I'd suggest B rank for it. It's an amazing wall (and in my opinion underrated), but lack of offensive presence makes it dead weight on some teams.
  19. Worldtour

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    Just wanted to say that Registeel is still UU, but I think it should be C-Ranked. I find it pretty weak, but it always gets its job done. It is nearly impossible to KO and thus will almost always Paralyze, Poison, or do something else disruptive toward the foe. I faced one earlier - from my bad luck I got two Pokemon that depended on their speed paralyzed (one actually lost a fair chuck of its health), and this was mainly because Registeel was just to bulky to do anything against, and without a Super effective STAB it just really stays around for a while. While it is fairly weak and not versatile at all, it rarely needs support to do its job, and at the very least I believe it is a lot better than Claydol.
  20. kokoloko

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    @ Slowking vs Slowbro - Slowbro is undoubtedly better on full stall teams and it should be obvious why. You want reliability over versatility on stall. Slowking essentially exchanges Slowbro's ability to be a full stop to almost any physical attacker for a ton of versatility (and by extension, the ability to better handle threats that can attack from both sides). I would even go as far as saying Slowking is better than Slowbro on most balanced teams, not just a few.

    @ Registeel - Yeah its still UU. Its just kinda outclassed by Bronzong and other, more reliable, walls. Steel-typing is fantastic with those defenses, but the metagame is way too offensive atm to give up as much momentum as Registeel does.

    @ Nidoking - Its honestly too slow and not bulky enough. We've been over this earlier in this thread--Nidoqueen is better most of the time.

    Meloetta is really bad with Mew around, I'd move it down to B or even C.

    Dusclops is shit. Its honestly worse than Ambipom. I wouldn't even list it if it wasn't UU lol.
  21. Nas

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    Meloetta and Virizion should be moved down to B rank. Neither of them have had as much of an impact as expected and I think they were tiered far too hastily. Tornadus is questionable, but I think it's low A tier material at best.
  22. Worldtour

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    Yeah, Meloetta and Virizion are pretty rare and somewhat ineffective, I'd agree about them being B-tier. Heck, I'd call Meloetta a C-Tier Pokemon, as I see very little reason to use it over Mew.

    Also to c/p my other post about Tornadus

    Also want to add that the Rain Dance set does work, but it is pretty easy to revenge kill with a Choice Scarfed Pokemon, and Tornadus in general has some huge problems with bulky Steels, especially Bronzong which is the most common Steel in the tier. Snorlax is also a pain - Focus Blast won't OHKO but CB Snorlax will.
  23. Forsety

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    If you'd do more than some selective reading you'd find I already said that. I have honestly never seen a Snorlax which couldn't be eventually broken through, it's used practically in the same way Pory2 is except with less versatility.

    No, wrong. It can do both.

    Slowking has two major tricks over Slowbro. First is it can phaze as it has access to Dragon Tail something all bulky mons like as a option. Second is it learns Nasty Plot letting it pull off a better Trick Room sweeper set and if anything makes Slowking the more offensive of the two.

    Virizion is definitely B rank, I always wanted to hold off judgement on it but I'm pretty sure it's not too great. It just has the problem that there are far too many fighters in UU and Heracross near outclasses every single one.

    Meloetta on the other hand I'm mixed on, Mew's very presence alone kills off any use Step form could get. On the other hand I find a Spec/Scarf set extremely dangerous, it just about takes any special attack under the sun and can dish back a extremely lethal Psyshock, Thunder or Hyper Voice back. It's also quite good in other roles as a special sponge, mixed or as part of a volturn setup. I actually find it still has enough to keep it just barely in the A rank range but people just aren't bothering to try it out.

    Tornadus however I just thoroughly don't see it as anything other than A rank. In the end it's still a disgustingly powerful sweeper, setup and among other things.
  24. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

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    ====
    update
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    Snorlax up from A tier ==> S tier
    Weavile up from B tier ==> A tier (could have sworn I did this before)
    Meloetta down from A tier == > B tier
    Virizion down from A tier == > B tier

    On Snorlax: I should have moved Snorlax to S-tier a lot sooner>_>. EVERYONE USES SNORLAX, it's a downright constant in UU. You kind of have too in this kind of metagame (hail not included!) because its a full stop to Chandelure (which is a pain for most teams) and can check all of those pesky Special Attackers. Why "shouldn't" Snorlax be S-tier? On an objective level, there's no reason NOT to run Snorlax on your typical team since it checks so many threats.

    On dropping Virizion & Meloetta: Can do! I personally still see Virizion as a huge threat, but it needs to set up before doing any real damage because its naturally very weak. As for Meloetta: You're right in that Mew's existence in UU gives users less of a reason to use Mew, but even with the existence of Mew it's still good enough to warrant use. No i'm not talking about its relic dance sets (they're poor) but more along the lines of its CM sets, which are pretty damn hard to take down once it gets going. But yeah i'll admit I overrated its effectiveness a tad though, A tier is too much for it.

    On Druddigon's tiering placement: It's definitely B tier. I think you misinterpreted Druddigon's role hilarious. It's not a tank, but more of an attacker or a nuke; CB Druddigon is absurd. If you don't have a Steel-type (likely, given their scarcity in UU) you're guaranteed to lose a Pokemon if it comes in on something that can't threaten it. It 2HKOes practically every single physical wall in UU barring Slowbro, who's somewhat vulnerable to Crunch. It's not even borderline like Flygon, it's flat out OHKing / 2HKOing pretty much everything in the game (typically OHKOes that Pokemon that outspeed it / outspeeds the Pokemon that are not OHKOed) There's a reason why Magneton + Druddigon teams were seen during the Smogon UU open, because it's a legit strategy because Druddigon will tear you up when given the opportunity.

    On Machamp's tiering placement: Ordinarily i'd agree with you, but when I take No Guard Dynamic Punch into account i'm inclined to disagree. Confusion hax will always play a part in a match; whether minor or massive, it can't be ignored unless you're running a ghost-type. You can usually check Fighting-types offensive checks like Zapdos which can check things like Heracross, but you would never get away with that with Machamp; 1. Because you can't OHKO with Zapdos, ever 2. If you get confusion haxed, Machamp will come out on top(same with Crobat actually!!!). It's not that big of a deal that Machamp isn't bulky. (rather, the fact that it's naturally bulkier than the likes of Heracross, Mienshao ON TOP of being allowed to run 252hp is something you should be consider). Overall inferior as a Fighting-type choice in comparison to Heracross? Sure. But I would never say its outright outclassed; Dynanic Punch won't allow it.

    On Registeel's tiering placement: It's actually D rank, though that seems a bit too low. Anyone have a problem with me moving it to C tier? Sure it invites a bunch of nasty Pokemon to switch in, but that typing & defenses allow it to pretty much check anything at max health with Thunder Wave. What do you say?

    EDIT: What Swamp-Rocket said hehe.
  25. hilarious

    hilarious

    Joined:
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    PK Gaming have you just not decided on Zoroark yet or have you decided its B rank? If undecided try using Kingdra+Specs Zoroark and watch as all bulky waters get mauled with Grass Knot and steels eat Flamethrower. Fun fun fun they never see it coming, especially if you lead with "Kingdra" against Swampert leads. hopefully would be victims wont read this post.

    Also have you decided on Gligar and Dusclops and Galvantula and Ambipom and Cryogonal and Slowking (all of which were touched on in earlier posts)? It would be a shame if the best opposition to my arguments were "Dusclops is shit. Its worse than Ambipom." To be fair Ambipom is C rank and I am arguing Dusclops for D rank so I never even argued it was better kokoloko.

    Speaking of which kokoloko you said Slowking in general could be better because it is more versatile. I dont understand how a defensive Pokemon failing to counter the vast majority of the tier adds to versatility. I wasnt talking about stall at all so I am not sure why you brought that up but in my experience Slowbro is only decent for stall teams since it adds little in terms of roles...all it is a physical wall. Cannot phaze or wish support or cleric or spinblock or set up hazards or spin. Generally on stall you want as many roles as possible on your team. You make a reference that Slowking can better take on mixed attackers (things that can attack from both sides). Well barely any of these even exist in UU but lets look at them anyways. Cobalion can attack from two sides sd, cm and maybe work up mixed or something. If the slowbro switches into SD Cobalion it almost always wins, Slowking can win but maybe just a little less of the time. Both lose one on one if they switch into cm Cobalion unless Scald gets a first turn burn where Slowking can win but Slowbro would still lose (assuming HP Ghost). And of course both could deal with a mixed set easily although i have no idea what would go on a work up set (ok seriously who uses that?). In fact barely anyone uses CM Cobalion either so Slowking is rarely more effective and usually more ineffective against this mixed attacker. Virizion creams slowbuddies both with any set physical or special or mixed. Meleotta is usually special and beats them no matter what with sub cm and if physical has a harder time against Slowbro. If mixed Slowbro loses more often (assuming it has Tbolt). Victini can actually beat Slowking much more easily than Slowbro with a CB set although both usually beat CS sets. Lure victini beats up both of them with thunder/grass knot but Slowbro is much more likely to die. Still Slowking wil not win one on one, both can 2hko each other but Victini is faster. Mew rapes everyone no matter what because its Mew but it rapes Slowbro more with a NP set. Still if you come in on a NP you should know to go away and if you come in on a Giga/Tbolt you have enough health to run away and regenerate. You are in a far better position with Slowking though because you can stay in and not die instantly. Tornadus is the last mixed one and Slowking loses to physical sets while Slowbro doesn't always lose and can at least cripple him with Twave while RD sets hurt Slowbro much more than Slowking although both will not be 2hkod by LO Hurricane and both can deal serious damage back with rain boosted Scald. And Slowking beats Kingdra much better yadayadaya although it still loses one on one to DD versions. Frankly going over this I am not even sure who is better vs potentially mixed attakers and thats not even mentioning Slowbro beats a whole helluva lot more physical attackers while faring only a little worse against special ones (they both lose to most special attackers).

    Since Snover just came in with Snow Warning I think it should be given a ranking. And Walrien. I dont really know how to rank a weather inducer/abusers though so um have fun with that.

    I guess you're right on Druddigon I was clueless to even what set made it B rank.

    For machamp hax will not always play a part, I would say this is about in a quarter of all matches. Thats confusion doing nothing for two turns which is entirely possible and allows you time to murder machamp. If you think the pretty good but not pretty great bulk in conjunction with Dpunch usually helping out because a wide movepool makes it B rank then thats ok I guess.

    Registeel looks good in C rank to me if its at the very bottom of C rank (you should NOT be giving Chandelures and Heracross and Mienshaos semi free openings).

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