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The Vacuum of Stall - A UU Stall Team

Discussion in 'Past Gen Teams' started by Eo Ut Mortus, Aug 30, 2009.

  1. Eo Ut Mortus

    Eo Ut Mortus Elodin Smells
    is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Jun 3, 2007

    This phase of UU has been, in my opinion, one of the, if not the most, volatile stages. The metagame is currently extremely diverse, and while standards have developed, it seems that new and innovative ideas keep popping up. What were previously dismissed as gimmicks suddenly become mainstream. Strategies that were ineffective before are now much more viable. Pokemon like Nasty Plot Toxicroak, Swords Dance Leafeon, and Charge Beam Rotom, completely smothered by the presence of Crobat and Shaymin prior to this stage of UU, have risen dramatically in usage. Some would call this new metagame fresh and new; others might describe it as chaotic and unstable.

    With the removal of Crobat, and to a lesser extent, Shaymin and Umbreon, it has become a lot harder to cover every single threat with stall and still retain the basic components of a stall team. Despite this, stall has remained a very effective style of play. This period of testing is slowly drawing to a close, so in anticipation of the next phase of UU, I have decided to post my team to see if it can be honed any further.

    At a glance...



    Roserade (M) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP/120 Def/136 SDef
    Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Spikes
    - Energy Ball
    - Synthesis
    - Extrasensory

    When it came to choosing a Spiker, two options came to mind before anything else: Roserade and Omastar. Other Spikers were simply too fragile for my tastes or bore an annoying weakness to Stealth Rock. Ultimately, Roserade won me over for a variety of reasons. It has access to (somewhat) reliable recover, it can deal with specific threats, such as Charge Beam Rotom and opposing Roserade, and it easily beats Omastar leads one on one.

    Spikes are the fuel of a stall team. They are extremely helpful in retaining the momentum of a battle, and if one chooses to forego them, it is much harder in wearing down the opponent's team. While Sludge Bomb has much better neutral coverage in UU, Energy Ball is necessary to avoid being trapped and killed by Dugtrio, and it also helps to deter Omastar and Donphan. Synthesis is Roserade's form of recovery, which I much prefer to Rest so it can set up more easily on Pokemon like Chansey. Extrasensory fills the last slot. It is an odd choice, but it is mostly for Nasty Plot Toxicroak, who is an extremely irritating Pokemon for my team to face. Extrasensory also hits most of the Poison-types that Energy Ball fails to cover, such as Venusaur, Roserade, and Muk. I admittedly have had not seen any Nasty Plot Toxicroak as of late, though.

    The EVs, courtesy of august, allow me to survive anything Dugtrio throws at me at full health. As with Toxicroak, I have not been seeing many Dugtrio as of late, though.

    I'm considering...
    running more Speed on Roserade and throwing Toxic on it somewhere. The main purpose is to get rid of Taunt Mismagius, who is one of the largest threats to this team.

    Registeel @ Shed Shell
    Ability: Clear Body
    EVs: 252 HP/100 Atk/156 SDef
    Careful nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Iron Head
    - Ice Punch
    - Shadow Claw

    I heavily dislike using this Pokemon. Its lack of offense and reliable recovery is really frustrating. However, my desire for Stealth Rock, an additional check to Roserade, and a resistance to Flying-typed attacks ensure that Registeel is probably here to stay.

    Stealth Rock is quite self-explanatory; the more entry hazards, the better. Registeel isn't as reliable at setting them up as, say, Chansey, but it is basically the only Pokemon that has enough available moveslots to accommodate it. Iron Head is for STAB. Ice Punch is mainly for assorted Flying- and Grass- types. Shadow Claw rounds off the set; it seems like an extremely odd choice, but it is Registeel's only "answer" to Substitute / Charge Beam Rotom. It also hits Mismagius, Claydol, Uxie, and Mespirit slightly harder than Iron Head. Shadow Claw isn't too applicable, though, as whenever I switch in Registeel, I never seem to be in good enough condition to take on SubCharge Rotom.

    The EVs are your standard fare. Shed Shell is so Registeel can escape the clutches of Dugtrio and Magneton, the latter of which I am starting to see more often than the former.

    I'm considering... Changing Iron Head. Its main purpose is to hit Ambipom...I think. In all honesty, I cannot remember what it is good for, and I should probably replace it. Earthquake to hit Drapion and Blaziken or Hammer Arm to still hit Ambipom, Kabutops, and Kangaskhan are worth considering.

    Tangrowth (M) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/6 SpA
    Relaxed nature (+Def, -Spd)
    - Leaf Storm
    - Earthquake
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Synthesis

    I love this Pokemon. One, because it's not bog standard. Two, because it walls about the whole physical side of UU. Name me another Pokemon that can wall Torterra, Kabutops under rain, Absol, Drapion, and Altaria. Mojonbo is an extremely cool UU Pokemon, and if you are in need of something to counter the mass of physically-based Grass-types that have suddenly been regurgitated all over UU, I urge you to try it.

    Leaf Storm is the STAB move of choice here. The principle behind it is similar to that behind Draco Meteor on OU's Bulky Salamence; use a move with high base power to make up for the lack of attack investment. Leaf Storm OHKOes Absol with a bit of residual damage (which can be accrued from Life Orb recoil) which is something that Energy Ball cannot do. Earthquake covers Drapion and Toxicroak, along with unsuspecting Houndoom, Arcanine, and Typhlosion who switch in expecting to sponge a weak Grass attack. Hidden Power Ice hits Altaria and Grass-types such as Venusaur and Leafeon. It can also easily catch the ubiquitous Yanmega switch-in by surprise. Synthesis is Tangrowth's obligatory method of recovery.

    I'm considering...
    Special Attack investment. At the moment, I'm worried about the bulkier of Leafeon setting up multiple Swords Dances on me and effortlessly pulling off a Baton Pass. However, maximum HP and Defense is needed to contain Kabutops as much as possible.

    Chansey (F) @ Shed Shell
    Ability: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 Def/16 Spd/242 SDef
    Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Seismic Toss
    - Toxic
    - Softboiled
    - Aromatherapy

    The best special wall of UU. Chansey keeps the majority of specially based threats of UU in check, something that is essential to a stall team. Without it, this team would probably crumble in the face of Choice Specs Yanmega, who is arguably the biggest threat of the present metagame.

    Seismic Toss, Toxic, and Softboiled are your standard fare on Chansey. The first two moves are Chansey's best ways of dealing damage, and Softboiled is, naturally, recovery. Aromatherapy rounds out Chansey's moveset. The freedom to let my other Pokemon take status is something I really enjoy. I can let Milotic be Toxic'd by Lead Arcanine. I can have Registeel set up Stealth Rock without being permanently bothered by Uxie's Thunder Wave. I can refrain from berating my opponent when his Azumarill freezes my Tangrowth with Ice Punch. For all these problems (and more) will be solved by Aromatherapy.

    Milotic (F) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Marvel Scale
    EVs: 252 HP/242 Def/16 Spd
    Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Surf
    - Recover
    - Hidden Power [Grass]
    - Haze

    Milotic picks up the remaining pieces; some would call it "the glue" of the team. Its main purpose is to cover Fire-types, Honchkrow, and bulky stat boosters such as Curse Registeel. Milotic is also a sort of "back-up check" for a variety of Pokemon. It can take on physical Water-types if Tangrowth is not healthy enough to do so, certain special threats like Yanmega if Chansey is in bad conditon, and even Swellow in dire cases, such as if Registeel is asleep.

    Surf and Recover need no explanation, but the last two moves might. Hidden Power Grass is for Water-types since I don't care too much about hitting Grass-types. Haze is necessary in order to allow my team to deal with stat boosters like CM Spiritomb and Curse Registeel, whether through outstalling them or using Donphan to take them down.

    Donphan (M) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP/252 Atk/6 Spd
    Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Earthquake
    - Assurance
    - Rapid Spin
    - Rest

    Rounding out the final spot in my team is Donphan, whose ability to Rapid Spin is a necessity lest I wish to get decimated by opposing stall teams. This is (unfortunately) probably my best answer to Taunt Mismagius and Charge Beam Rotom, which is why I am using it over Hitmontop. Rest is there so Donphan has a form a recovery, and it's not so bad without Sleep Talk since Chansey has Aromatherapy.

    EVs are still undergoing testing. There is apparently a spread that is more efficient in terms of Defense; however, I want to first see if it outweighs the benefits of slightly more Special Defense.

    Additional Notes
    • I am considering Altaria over Milotic. It undoubtedly helps with Clefable, Rotom, Fighting-types, Leafeon, and Blaziken more. However, the Stealth Rock weakness is unappealing, and I will lose security against Feraligatr, Honchkrow, and Azumarill.
    • You might be wondering about the absence of a Ghost-type. I can't find a spot to fit it in. Lack of a spin blocker doesn't bother me much, as I can just lure my opponent's Rapid Spinner in and play aggressively to drive it out. Lacking a Fighting-resistance hurts, though. The most viable switch I could make to amend this is currently Rotom over Registeel.
    Team Building Process:
    • I started out with the combination of Chansey and Milotic. Chansey earned its spot because of the threat of Yanmega, and Milotic was chosen because of its overall defensive capabilities, its relatively decent synergy with Chansey, and its ability to deal with Honchkrow and Blaziken.
    • Rotom was added soon after to cover Flying-types such and act as a spin-blocker. I tested out three offensive Pokemon in the last few spots- TechniTop, Life Orb Roserade, and Dugtrio. This team did not start out as a stall team, but a balanced team. I was relatively successful, but I soon noticed that I had a terrible weakness to both physical and specially based Grass-types, Torterra and Roserade in particular.
    • Registeel replaced Rotom to help remedy my Roserade and Venusaur problems. Torterra was still an issue, so I replaced Dugtrio with Tangrowth. Even then, Substitute / Leech Seed Roserade was still giving me problems, so I replaced Hitmontop with a somewhat defensive Torterra. This was the team that I used in the Smogon Tour semifinals.
    • I decided that this team was becoming pretty defensive, so I made Roserade a Spiker. All was well until I started facing a number of stall teams on the ladder, whose access to a spinner ensured that they always had the upper hand.
    • I finally ended up replacing Torterra with Donphan, figuring that my own Roserade would be good enough to cover SubSeed Roserade, and that was the last change I have made to date.

    I feel that this team is an ongoing work-in-progress; there's definitely a lot of things that need to be tested and toyed around with. So please rate and suggest changes!

  2. Eo Ut Mortus

    Eo Ut Mortus Elodin Smells
    is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Jun 3, 2007
    Threat List

    Roserade -
    I have Registeel take the Life Orb versions' Sleep Powder and then switch in Chansey. Spikers allow me to set up my own Spikes, which is not the most ideal situation, but I can't really do any better. SubSeed, especially with Spikes, is extremely annoying. All I can do is use my own Roserade to deal with it, hoping that Sludge Bomb doesn't deal enough damage to prevent it from doing so.

    Registeel -
    Donphan spins away Stealth Rock and Earthquakes the standard versions. Milotic Hazes away boosts from the Curser, and Donphan can then handle it with ease.

    Mismagius - Registeel handles Calm Mind / Substitute versions, as does Milotic if they do not have Thunderbolt. Chansey handles any Mismagius without Substitute or Taunt. Taunt Mismagius is possibly the biggest threat to my team. Calm Mind / Taunt can be dealt with by Registeel, but Taunt / Will-O-Wisp usually requires that a sacrifice be made.

    Milotic - Roserade sets up on the standard versions. Chansey deals with Life Orb versions.

    Uxie - Registeel walls standard versions. Chansey can poison it and deals with Calm Minders.

    Yanmega - Chansey walls all sets, and Registeel and Milotic can deal with it in a pinch.

    Blaziken - Milotic handles it quite well normally, but with enough residual damage or an unlucky critical hit, I am basically sunk, especially if I am facing a Mixed set. SD Superpower, though literally unseen, is basically "gg" as well.

    Hitmontop - Tangrowth and Milotic can handle TechniTop. I cannot stop Rapid Spin versions from removing my entry hazards, but asides from that, they aren't very threatening. CB versions can be problematic.

    Ambipom - Registeel, Tangrowth, and Milotic all wall the normal physical set. Milotic can Haze away boosts from a Nasty Plot / Baton Pass set. Some prediction is needed if they have Taunt.

    - Tangrowth walls it, as does Milotic.

    Rotom - Roserade can take the Trick from Scarf versions. Chansey can then handle it. Rest / Sleep Talk versions can be dealt with by Roserade. Substitute / Will-O-Wisp is annoying, but is handled, to an extent, by Donphan and Roserade; if worse comes to worse, I can try and outstall it with Chansey. Substitute / Charge Beam is one of the biggest threats to my team, especially combined with Spikes. Roserade is my best bet against it, followed by Registeel and Donphan.

    - Tangrowth and Donphan dispatch it with ease.

    Clefable - Life Orb variants are rare, but I hardly have any way of defeating them; essentially, I have to sack Roserade or Milotic to have a chance at doing so. Calm Mind versions are not as threatening, but my only way of defeating them is oustalling with Haze from Milotic or with Chansey. Seismic Toss / Encore / etc. is set up bait for Roserade, but also has to be outstalled.

    Spiritomb - Milotic Hazes away boosts from the Calm Minder, and Donphan can 3HKO it with Earthquake, I believe.

    Steelix - Donphan spins away Stealth Rock, and Milotic easily wins with Surf.

    Arcanine - Milotic can take anything short of a Choice Band Thunder Fang, which can be redirected to Donphan or Tangrwoth.

    Absol - Tangrowth survives a boosted hit and OHKOes with Leaf Storm + Life Orb recoil.

    Torterra - Tangrowth HP Ices it to death.

    - Chansey kills it with Toxic.

    Toxicroak - Roserade and Chansey can handle the Nasty Plot set to an extent, but can still be a bit of a pain. Tangrowth can handle Swords Dance versions; Donphan can too if they are Jolly.

    Claydol - Roserade and Milotic threaten super effective hits with their STABs; Chansey can poison it.

    Swellow - Registeel walls it; Milotic and Donphan can handle it in an emergency.

    Chansey - Roserade sets up on it. Donphan and Chansey can force it out with Earthquake and Toxic, respectively.

    Altaria -
    Tangrowth handles Dragon Dance variants, as does Registeel. Chansey handles special variants. Roserade sets up on defensive Altaria.

    Moltres - Milotic, Chansey, and Stealth Rock ensure that Moltres will have a hard time doing anything to my team.

    Espeon -
    Chansey counters it, as do Registeel and Milotic if need be.

    Sceptile -
    Registeel is a good initial switch into most sets. Roserade beats SubSeeders, Tangrowth beats Swords Dancers, and Chansey beats Specs sets, with Roserade taking any boosted Focus Blasts.

    Venusaur -
    Against the Swords Dancer, Registeel takes the initial Sleep Powder, and Tangrowth takes over from there. Roserade sets up on special based sets.

    Hitmonlee - Tangrowth can somewhat handle the Life Orb variant...but Choice Banders usually require a sacrifice, as everything on my team is 2HKOed by a Choice Banded Close Combat.
    Houndoom - Milotic usually wins against Nasty Plotters; Chansey can provide support if the need arises (and Beat Up is absent).

    Feraligatr - Tangrowth walls it, and Milotic beats it one on one.

    Weezing - Milotic's Surf deals a number to it; Roserade can set up on it.

    Ludicolo - Tangrowth deals with Swords Dancers, and Chansey deals with special variants.

    Dugtrio - Tangrowth decimates it, Registeel and Chansey have Shed Shell, and the rest of my team can take a hit or two and beat it.

    Regirock - Donphan spins away Stealth Rock; Milotic Hazes away Curse.

    Hariyama - Essentially Hitmonlee, only slower. Choice Banders are threatening, but I can outstall defensive variants. SubPunch isn't too harmful to my team.

    Lanturn -
    Chansey eats it; Roserade sets up on it.

    Kabutops -
    Tangrowth survives a +2 Stone Edge and OHKOes with Leaf Storm.

    Blastoise - Roserade scares it off and Chansey can poison it.

    Tangrowth -
    My Tangrowth destroys all.

    Scyther - Registeel and Milotic, to an extent. It would be more problematic if people used it more.

    Mesprit -
    Chansey poisons it.

    - Haze away Curses, poison it if it lacks Heal Bell. Miltank is mostly beaten through outstalling.

    Donphan -
    MOJONBO rules here. And Milotic.

    Nidoking - Milotic can take a Thunderbolt and OHKO with Surf. Donphan handles pure physical variants.

    Typhlosion - Milotic and Chansey beat it with ease.

    Electrode -
    Tangrowth and Donphan can take Thunder(bolts), and Registeel can take the Explosion.

    Drifblim -
    Milotic Hazes away any boosts it has accrued and can outstall it if need be.

    Ursaring -
    Tangrowth, I imagine. I don't see this enough for it to be a problem.

    Nidoqueen - Donphan spins away its hazards and threatens with Earthquake.

    Kangaskhan - Tangrowth can take anything from this; Registeel is best at taking CB Returns, though.

    Porygon2 -
    Chansey poisons it.

    Lopunny - Registeel and Tangrowth take its attacks; Milotic can Haze speed boosts away.

    Magmortar - Milotic can take a Thunderbolt and KO with Surf. Blissey handles any version without Cross Chop or Focus Punch.

    Charizard - Milotic switches in and Hazes away the Belly Drum.

    Medicham -
    Tangrowth annihilates it.

    Gardevoir -
    Chansey and Registeel deal with it.

    Jumpluff - Walled by Tangrowth and Roserade.

    Muk - Donphan devours it.

    LickiLicky - Registeel takes its hits, and Chansey can poison it. Milotic Hazes away stat boosts.

    - Milotic and Tangrowth beat it.

    Ninetales - Milotic and Chansey beat it.

    Primeape - Milotic and Tangrowth

    Sandslash -
    Milotic and Tangrowth

    Linoone - Ctrl-V.

    Honchkrow -
    Milotic can take it if it doesn't get a critical hit.

    - Milotic and Roserade.

    Leafeon - Tangrowth can 2HKO it with Hidden Power Ice, and Leafeon can do nothing back. However, Leafeon can just pass the boosts to something, so I have to predict flawlessly in order not to get swept by a +2 Hitmonlee, Arcanine, etc.
  3. Brass


    Aug 11, 2009
    Wow a very good team as you have created. It looks very well done. However as you say there is always room to progress.

    The most important thing I can recommend is a ghost to block spins. As your team is a stall team rocks and spikes are a primary player in you team as such you don't want somethink able to spin them away with no cares. For this spot I recommend replacing Steel with duclops or just someone with a ghost type. Duclops just like registeel is a great wall. However dusclops can WoW physical sweepers that you say your team has trouble with. Rotom can also be used to a lesser extent IMO. Overall stopping the spin is very important. However Dusclops seems better having great defenses compared to rotom.

    The next big issue I see is that your team has a large fire weakness. Although chansey can handle houndoom. He can run wild without her especailly the nasty plot variants. But she is no match for houndoom's physcical counterpart Arcanine. The CB Flare Blitz wrecks your team as nothing wants to take it or switch into it even Donphan and Milotic don't take it great. And with a large fire weakness Arcanine is doing damage. Your fire weakness is furthered in the form of Blaziken who mixed also does alot of damage to your whole team, while your lack of speed allows him to do work. Arcanine can only be worn down with the current team with smart work. However I think a switch for something to take hits would be a good idea. Seem with blaziken. Overall your team shouldn't play with fire. Ironnically i think a bulky arcanine could work well in this team absorbing fire hits or lowering attack. Hitting the grass foes like leafeon. Wisping or Toxicing just overall helping the stall and help covering your fighting weakness. And with donphan to spin arcanine doesn't take the rocks damage that would hinder his bulkiness.

    Your speed issue mentioned earlier is no joke. I recommend you do give roselia some speed. Or do something as slow strong sweepers will have alot of fun on this team.

    Okay that is basically all I got for now if I think of anything else I will come back and rerate. All and all looks like a good team. But with some touch ups it can get even better.
  4. d2m


    Apr 18, 2009
    I hate this team. I think the only time I beat it was when I critted Tangrowth with something or the other. This is really what stall is about.

    I also think I might be the one responsible for the "+2 Hitmonlee or Arcanine" comment <_<.

    You might consider Shadow Ball over Extrasensory on Roserade. It would allow you to beat stallbreaker Mismagius and Rotom easier as you already have multiple checks to the listed poison types anyway.

    Changing Iron Head to Earthquake would let you cover NP Toxicroak (most carry Vacuum Wave as their fighting move, and it's too weak to 2HKO Registeel even after a NP, if they carry anything else they probably don't carry Sludge Bomb and are thus dealt with by Tangrowth) and hit unsuspecting fire types (like Blaziken) that like to switch in on Registeel.
  5. Lemmiwinks MkII

    Lemmiwinks MkII

    Jun 14, 2007
    This might well be insignificant, but I can see that your team is rather weak to Hail stall teams. I know this because I've been using one recently and ToF has a similar stall team that experiences big problems with it. Registeel, Milotic and Chansey are easily stalled, Roserade and Tangrowth have their recovery nerfed, whilst Donphan rarely gets an opportunity to spin, whilst opposing Cloysters get free Spikes + spin on two-thirds of your team.

    I suspect there is no easy solution to this, as it would probably require a spinner that isn't weak to Ice, but like you said Donphan is your only good check for Rotom and Missy. Using Omastar as a Spiker with Rest could help somewhat, but that would probably mean you have to replace Milotic with Altaria to avoid a major Grass weak, which in turns causes further problems.

    Sorry I can't be of any more help right now. I just want to remind you of the threat of Hail as it does kinda walk over your team atm.
  6. Nas

    Nas Banned deucer.

    Oct 19, 2007
    Well your stall team is almost exactly the same as mine, the difference being that I don't run Tangrowth. Anyways, your lack of a spin blocker disturbs me. I don't see how you can hope to defeat opposing stall when they can repeatedly come in and spin away your spikes while blocking yours with their ghost. My suggestion would be to replace Registeel with a Spiritomb, as Registeel isn't really walling anything that isn't already covered by something else. As for SR, it can go on Chansey in place of Aromatherapy, and you could use Roserade as your cleric. You'd have to lose Extrasensory though, which isn't really a loss since NP Croak is so rare as it is.
  7. Eo Ut Mortus

    Eo Ut Mortus Elodin Smells
    is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Jun 3, 2007
    One of my biggest concerns, as both an ex-C&C moderator and a tournament player, has been and still is bridging the gap between players and contributors. This concern is reflected in both some of the responses in this thread and concerns voiced over IRC. I know players, including myself, have issues with the environments of C&C, RMT, DST (now OU), tiering/ladder etc. On the other hand, at least one person has noted in this thread how the culture of secrecy that surrounds tournaments makes it difficult for anyone not already in the scene to become familiar with the tournament metagame. I also believe that this contributes to this gap.

    I believe this rift extends to several areas of Smogon; however, I will focus on C&C since it is the area with which I am most familiar. As far as I know, in many, if not in all, of the lower tiers, its best players also happen to be some of its biggest contributors. This is ideal; however, this is not the case in OU for a number of reasons. As evidence of my concerns:


    I talked to several reputable players on IRC, and they all agreed that the last two sets on the Virizion set were not viable. In fact, Shrang, author of this revision, agreed that they weren't viable and was supported by several people who posted in the thread. These concerns were, however, dismissed by a simple, unjustified exercise of Quality Control authority. Things like this deter people from contributing.

    Though irrelevant to my overall argument, I will justify my claim by saying these sets see little use on the ladder and absolutely no use in high tournament play. The dual screens set is not viable because very few playstyles require the use of dual screens, and any that do use better screeners than Virizion. Work Up is a mediocre version of the Swords Dance set; its only reasonable advantage is that it can use Giga Drain while burned.

    For the record, this is not the only analysis that is currently advocating out-of-date and/or nonviable sets. For example, Hypnosis is still the first slash on Politoed, and Life Orb is still the first slash on Alakazam, but most people have moved onto Perish Song / Focus Sash, respectively. It goes without saying that we want our analyses to be as good as possible, and that accomplishing this is likelier the more that competent players are able and willing to contribute. Here are a few changes I think we should make to encourage this:

    Reducing the Stagnancy of the OU Quality Control Team

    People who hold positions should be qualified for those positions. This is a stance I have taken and held ever since I participated in C&C. When I was part of QC, I quit when I felt that I was no longer able to contribute. This is, as far as I know, common sense and accepted as a basic tenet.

    Unfortunately, people don't like giving up positions. I know that the parsimony regarding badges has been brought up as a problem in this very thread. This is different. When positions bear responsibility, especially when there are a limited number of positions, the people holding these positions should recognize when they are no longer qualified to hold them, and the people responsible for moderating these positions should be obligated to recognize when replacements are needed. This was a problem that I had when I led OU Quality Control, when I was strong-armed into including someone who was barely qualified in the first place and soon stopped doing anything altogether. He refused to yield his position, and due to ridiculously stupid politics, I had a difficult time (in fact, I never actually did myself) relieving him of his position.

    Furthermore, the people on the Quality Control team are not always the most qualified people to approve sets. This is not necessarily a call-out. It's just a fact. There is no guarantee that seven people who were good at one stage of BW will be as good or as motivated or as in touch with the metagame a month later.

    Honestly, I don't know the optimal way to solve these problems, but I do think they are problems. I think a good start would be the following:

    a) To put it bluntly, make sure the members of QC actually know what they're talking about. The highest metagame of competition is currently located in tournaments. The opinions of QC members should be in concordance with those of good tournament players. If not...

    b) ...they shouldn't be on QC. As I alluded to earlier, the metagame fluctuates a lot, and with it do people's grasp on it--not necessarily inherent skill, but rather, their familiarity with what works and what doesn't. The QC team should be fluid

    c) The QC team should be able to notice when an analysis is out-of-date (such as in the Alakazam/Politoed analyses that I referenced) and fix it. In gen 4, OU/UU did sweeps to ensure that analyses were up-to-date; these should really be done in gen 5 too, and frequently.

    d) Quality Control should have as many members as there are good players who are willing and able to provide accurate and informed judgments on the metagame, whether this number be nine or twenty. Would a bigger sample size not be more accurate (and more fitting for the largest tier)?

    Give credit and recognition

    Credit people, both for posting sets and for writing the actual analyses, either on the pages themselves or somewhere on the authors' profile (or both). There's a reason why some people insist on listing all of their analyses in their signatures: they want recognition. No-brainer.

    Encourage collaboration

    In C&C's current system, everyone can write analyses as long as they aren't completely stupid, with QC/GP around to monitor them to make sure they don't mess up completely. However, there's occasionally the one writer who's literate to pass the competence test but illiterate enough to cause GP more headaches than it's worth when fixing his writing. These people shouldn't really be writing, and the same should apply to Pokemon competency: people who are bad at Pokemon shouldn't be writing analyses either.

    Instead, I think we should encourage people to collaborate. This already happens when people (me, and I am indeed aware of the ironic context provided by the rest of my post) post a skeleton and end up being too lazy to write the actual analysis, and it works out okay. A player familiar with the Pokemon manages the skeleton; a good writer fleshes out the analysis, working alongside the first person for clarity; the GP team checks it; both people look over the analysis; the analysis is declared complete. Making this common practice would encourage people who are intimidated by typical C&C practices to contribute sets.

    That's all I personally have to say about that. From what I know the rift can probably be bridged in other areas (RMT, discussion forums), although I'm not familiar enough with such areas to comment on them.

    Summary: I think bridging the gap between players/contributors is very important.

    Other, somewhat unrelated things:

    - I support bringing back on-site ladder rankings, like the others who have mentioned it. They were a large incentive to laddering.

    - This is really just a pipe dream, and this idea was first conceived without any regard to the contents of my post. People were talking about how it would be cool if we could use ad revenue as tournament prizes and I agreed. And if that ever happens, it could be used as an incentive for people to post teams (people are required post logs/teams for money-based tournaments). Again, more of a pipe dream than a practical notion.

    - I'm all for trying to reduce the culture of secrecy that surrounds tournaments, but changes like that will definitely not come easily.
  8. dekzeh

    dekzeh B is for BRUTUS
    is a Tournament Directoris a Forum Moderatoris a Past WCoP Champion

    Jul 13, 2007
    Why not run Pursuit Hitmontop then?

    It deals with Sub Charge Rotom and Offensive MissyM better then Donphan due to way higher SDef, and while it has problems with WoW variants of both, it's not like Donphan doesn't have those problems...

    Foresight, Close Combat, Pursuit, Rapid Spin sounds like a decent set for your needs, and can screw up the double-ghost strategy. (Foregisht the MissyM/Rotom and Pursuit as they go to Spiritomb). You do lose the Recover from rest, but I guess it's worth a shot, or you can remove Foresight for Rest (but then Spiritomb becomes a pain).

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