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The Weather's Nice and Warm (BW OU Sun Team RMT)

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by shofly12, Jul 2, 2012.

  1. shofly12

    shofly12

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    160
    The Weather's Nice and Warm:

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    Introduction:


    Welcome to my first RMT guys! That being said, I've been in the competitive battling scene for a while, starting a little over a year ago. Anyways, I lurked in NU for most of the BW scene, although I played some DW OU at the beginning of the round. I found the BW2 metagame pretty interesting and decided to come back to OU. I've always been a big fan of sun and in such a rain/sand infested metagame, sun caught my attention as being a different team style. Anyways. enough about me.

    The team is an attempt at balanced sun offense. I'm not a huge fan of HO, but stall isn't really my thing either, so this is an attempt at sun somewhere in between. Sun really needs to keep its members alive in order to fight against rain and sand threats, but I've found that I also need to be ready to sacrifice team members in order to gain an edge, and this team tries to do just that. The team relies on careful switching, sacrificing, and gradual wearing down of the other team before one member can clean everything up.

    Now that that's said, onto the team!

    Team Building Process:

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    I wanted to make a sun team, so ninetales was a given.
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    The first thing I did was select my chloro mon. Gotta take advantage of that sun. I went with classic Venusaur first since he's a sun favorite. Also, Kanto rocks.
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    Next, I selected my fire type sweeper. Volcarona looked beastly. Quiver dance, boosted fire STAB, and the new giga drain for recovery? Beast.
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    Now that I had my main sun abusing core down, I wanted to get supporters who could back them with the support they needed. Of course, I thought of Forry. I had used him in the past, and being able to both spin and set up hazards was amazing. Volt switch was also nice to give Venusaur or Volcarona a free switch in.
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    At this point, I decided to add a Dragon to my team. They're always nice to have, and they provide a lot of useful resistances. Multiscale Dragonite is one of the best bulky dragons out there so it quickly found a home on my team.
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    Finally, I noticed that everything on my team really appreciated wish support. Thus, I added the newest member. Vaporeon. Baton passing wishes and subs is always nice, and to add onto that, it gets a nice ice beam to abuse. Also, it served as a water-immunity.

    OK. First round of team building done! I went out and took a spin with this team and....it sucked. I couldn't deal with opposing fire-types at all. Anything with a strong fire type move basically spelled death for me, especially heatran, and I still ran into problems with rain teams. Dragonite's burden was way too heavy, and I realized Vaporeon's Ice Beam was weak as heck and served almost no legit purpose. Also, I was having problems with fast dragons. I had to rely on revenge killing them with Dragonite at full health, but since I was relying on Dragonite's resistances so much, I couldn't even always rely on him either. So, back to the team!

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    I'll save you the details. (I tried different versions of vaporeon to no avail. Then Blissey, from CM Blissey to cover my chandelure weakness to standard WishBliss). Finally, I arrived at Jirachi as my support mon. It actually worked out pretty nicely. It had T-wave, Iron head for flinch-haxing, Fire Punch for sun abuse. A nice glue for the team.

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    I also found Forry's spikes support to be less useful than I had thought it would be, since it didn't affect a lot of mons giving me trouble (Latios, Latias, Rotom-W, the new Therians, etc.) A lot of things were also using my Forry as set-up fodder which I did not like. Ferrothorn would also always end up with another layer of hazards as I ran away, so I switched Forry out for a Donphan. It's what a lot of sun teams run, and it seemed to wall physical threats pretty effectively as well. Priority Ice Shard was also really nice.

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    All those changes later, and I realized I had just as much of a problem Fire-types as I originally had! (more actually, due to Jirachi). Volcarona was also not pulling its weight on the team. As hesitant as I was to leave it, I replaced it with Heatran, giving my team a nice Fire-type immunity. The steel typing was also really nice, providing a SR neutrality.

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    Oh Venusaur. How all those Kanto trainers love you. Alas, Venusaur was not carrying its weight. It wasn't bulky enough to take a hit, not fast enough outside of sun, and it had absolutely terrible coverage for a sweeper (OK. not terrible, but it struggled a lot against Dragons). While it doesn't seem like Lilligant would solve the problem, I found that Lilligant actually provided a lot of really decent team support with a fast Sleep Powder (decently fast even outside of sun).

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    Just because a move is super effective does not mean it will kill something, I realized. Donphan's Ice Shard did pittance against Dragons, and by the time it fought down a Dragon, its life as a physical wall was over. Enter Mamoswine! The original dragon slayer. It also gets access to SR, which is awesome.

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    Unfortunately, the loss of Donphan meant the loss of a spinner, which hurt my team. A LOT. As much as I hated to do it, I had to send Jirachi away in exchange for Starmie. The original, and best, Rapid Spinner! It's super speed was also really, really nice, as well as its coverage.

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    Lilligant just wasn't holding up enough for me. It wasn't powerful enough, couldn't pull out a Healing Wish enough, wasn't bulky enough, was definitely FAST enough, but I found that it just wasn't as useful as I thought it would be. So I replaced it with Breloom, who offered more offensive presence while also handling opposing weather inducers nicely.

    And that is the long and ridiculous way I got to my team. Now, onto the team!


    THE TEAM

    changes marked in red
    NOTE: PLEASE READ THE LAST POST IN THIS THREAD. (by me) IT HAS IMPORTANT POSSIBLE CHANGES TO THE TEAM THAT I'M CONSIDERING. THANKS! :D

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    Ninetales @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 136 HP / 120 Spd / 252 SAtk
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Flamethrower
    - SolarBeam
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Sunny Day


    Ninetales, the beginning of sun. It sucks. Terribly. But with Drought, there's a reason to use it. It's an indispensable member of the team since it provides eternal sunshine. Thus, I have to focus a lot on keeping it alive, and keeping my weather going. The Sunny Day set has worked out best for me. Not a lot of people expect Ninetales to carry Sunny Day on it (since it's a bit repetitive with Drought) and switch their Politoeds straight in, thinking it'll be a safe switch, only to have their weather negated and face a threatened Solarbeam in the face. I use Flamethrower because Ninetales really can't afford a miss. The EVs are standard for Sunny Day Tales. I'm considering switching up the EVs to give better bulk though and switching out Solarbeam for Safeguard or another support move since Ninetales isn't doing much damage anyways (although with 252 SpA, he can 2HKO Thundurus-T).

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    Breloom @ Life Orb
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 4 HP/ 252 Atk/ 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Spore
    - Bullet Seed
    - Mach Punch
    - Low Sweep


    Say Hello to my replacement for Lilligant! I was re-evaluating the team after Blue Wooper's suggestions and I realized I wanted something that could completely kill T-tar and Politoed while still offering a good fighting chance outside of those two niche roles. Lilligant did check things like SS Cloyster, Jellicent, etc. However, I realized that the main reason I was using Lilligant, Healing Wish, was not actually helping my team that much. I didn't normally play recklessly and while it helped once in a while against surprise factors, I was usually left wishing Lilligant had done more. So, goodbye Lilligant. Now I had to find a Pokemon who could still keep my weather going, fight like a pro, and counter water types. The whole "must counter these specific Pokemon while not sucking terribly" train of thought didn't leave me with many options. But, I found a Pokemon that seemed just perfect: TechniLoom.

    Mach Punch is awesome. Just, awesome. Having the same power as Scizor's Bullet Punch but better Typing. I was actually debating between Scizor and Breloom for this spot, but Breloom won thanks to its Rock resistance. Mach Punch takes care of Terrakion, SS Cloyster, T-tar, and puts serious hurt on most other things. Even resisted, Mach Punch will still pack a punch (pun...pun...punny....)

    Bullet Seed is there to help me: 1. kill Gliscor. 2. Kill Politoed. 3. Kill T-tar. 4. Kill Water-types. 5. Hurt things in general. With Technician, Bullet Seed is capable of being more powerful than Focus Punch. With STAB added to that, it's deadly. I keep it on Breloom to hit things hard on a switch, or shoot down Politoeds and other Water types. Apart from that, its mainly just there to continue to weaken the team until either Starmie can use its coverage to clean up, or Dragonite can just cleanly sweep. Notably, Breloom can handle Gliscor and Ferrothorn (under rain), two things Dragonite absolutely detests.

    Spore is there because spore is sleep support and that is practically an OHKO with BW mechanics.

    Low Sweep is probably the move I'm least sure about. I originally had SD but SD Breloom, while powerful, had to take a turn to set-up, and I already had a set-up sweeper in Dragonite. I'm still open to suggestions about it though. The reason I chose Low Sweep is because it slows the opponent down. If it doesn't hit something hard, then one of my other Pokemon can come in and do the job. Alternatively, Low Sweep can allow Breloom to outspeed and kill. This is more important hitting things like CS Politoed, or Landorus, or even Tornadus-T on the switch. It slows the threat down enough so that Breloom can kill them, and if Breloom can't, then someone else can. This also makes Mamoswine's job easier, as it's no longer the only one who has to deal with opposing fast threats.

    The Liiligant this beast replaced is below:

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    Lilligant @ Life Orb
    Trait: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 192 Spd / 64 SDef
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Sleep Powder
    - Leaf Storm
    - Healing Wish
    - Heal Bell / Hp Fire


    I first got the idea of using Lilligant from Kiritana's (Prelude of Sun) which is a BEAST team. Anyways, this is slightly altered, going for max speed, max special attack, to smack people in the face with a Leaf Storm. Most people expect a Quiver Dancing Lilligant and see no harm in leaving their T-tar or Politoed in. Too bad. Lilligant can OHKO offensive variants with a Leaf Storm and can nearly OHKO defensive variants as well. Leaf Storm is also a guaranteed OHKO on uninvested Conkeldurrs who would otherwise give me a lot of problems.

    The super-fast sleep powder has also been insanely useful, putting dangerous sweepers to sleep, or allowing Dnite a chance to set up. Sleep is ridiculous OP in BW, and Lilligant is perfectly able to capitalize on that. Healing Wish is basically a reset button. If I'm on the losing side of a weather war, it allows me to get Ninetales back in. If I really need Dnite, but it's taken a hit, Lilligant gets it back into commission. Basically, it takes deathfodder and makes is useful. Heal Bell is actually mostly filler. It's come in handy when my entire team (minus Starmie obviously) had annoying status. Also, it comes in handy if I get an unlucky Scald burn on Dnite or something of the like.

    The new EV spread is thanks to Expert Physics. More efficient, and Lilligant isn't speed-tying with a Modest nature anyways.

    Also, currently testing Hp Fire over Heal Bell to watch out for Nasty Plot Celebi, thanks to DestinyUnknown's suggestion.


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    Heatran @ Leftovers
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 192 Spd / 64 HP
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Fire Blast
    - Earth Power
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Stealth Rock


    Heatran is absolutely essential to my team. He's the only Dragon resist on the team, he absorbs fire moves, and can pummel away with a ridiculously powered Fire-Blast. He's also a really good lure for Ground-type moves that D-nite can switch in for free on. Heatran also takes on a lot of threats that my team would otherwise have problems with.

    Chandelure is not doing anything to him with any of its moves while Heatran can OHKO back with an Earth Power. It can switch onto CB Victini, CS Darmanitans hoping to get the sun boost and fire back Earth Powers, nabbing a KO on the way. Earth Power also hits both Politoed and T-tar pretty hard, and can also destroy opposing Heatran trying to switch in on a Fire Blast.

    Dragon Pulse is mostly filler, but its useful against Dragons locked into Outrage that I can blow away. Roar is useful for last-ditch phazing out of threats that have gotten out of hand. It's come in handy to save my butt against set-up sweepers and also is just useful for racking up some SR damage.

    The EVs were changed due to mklo's suggestion. I moved 60 Spd EVs away from speed and into HP. This allows me to outspeed max speed Brelooms, survive an unboosted Mach Punch, and hit back with Fire Blast. Also lets me outspeed other max speed base 70s while retaining maximum firepower.

    Roar was switched out for Stealth Rock at the suggestion of Blue Wooper since Heatran has more opportunities to set it up and given a free turn, Mamoswine is probably better off using Substitute.


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    Mamoswine @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Thick Fat
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
    Jolly Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Ice Shard
    - Icicle Crash
    - Superpower


    Mamoswine is also an absolute necessity for the team. It threatens opposing Heatran out, and can set up SR on the switch before getting out. Its Ice Shard is also a lifesaver. It's guaranteed to OHKO Landorus-T, has a good change at the OHKO on Thundurus-T and can OHKO Tornadus-T (guaranteed after SR damage). It's always getting the OHKO on Salamence (even with Intimidate), can OHKO Dnites after SR, has a good chance at OHKO-ing Latios after SR, and same thing with Haxorus, making it an absolutely BEAST revenge killer.

    EQ is obligatory STAB, and is gonna hurt massively coming of of Mamoswine's 130 Attack stat. Stone Edge is mostly filler, but completes the QuakeEdge Combo and can hurt the occasional Kyurem that I've seen floating around. It's also a stronger attack against Flying-types that switch in (compared to Ice Shard) if I predict correctly, although the accuracy absolutely sucks.


    With Trinitrotoluene's suggestion, I have given Mamoswine Superpower and a Jolly nature in order to better check opposing Mamoswine and Balloon Tran, which were huge threats to my team.

    OK. So a bit of an explanation on this change. The main problem I had with Mamoswine with Substitute was that it lost health too fast. A Sub+LO damage was already 35%. I couldn't even do that three times. Also, Mamoswine wasn't meant to power through a bunch of my opponent's team. It's meant to systematically taken down opposing threats: dragons, therians, Techniloom, etc. However, it wasn't amazing at its job since it was SO SLOW, relying on Ice Shard to damage most Dragons when LO Ice Shard isn't a clean OHKO on a lot of them (it'll dent them for sure). It also meant that against things like bulky Celebi, I was doing nothing while getting seriously hurt by Giga Drain. So in comes Choice Scarf! Most people don't expect a Choice Scarf, and will leave their Dragons or such sitting nice and pretty, preparing to fire a Draco Meteor while I get off an Icicle Crash. It's been helpful in a lot of games, outspeeding opposing Mamoswine, Heatran. It even outspeeds SD Terrakion, giving it a swift Superpower in the face.


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    Dragonite @ Leftovers
    Trait: Multiscale
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4SDef / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Dragon Dance
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Punch
    - Dragon Claw


    Multiscale Dragonite. Probably one of the most broken Pokemon ever. He and Ninetales are the only members of the team that stayed with me through the whole process, with reason. Dragonite provides a lot of useful resistances that a sun team needs. It gives me another fire-resistance in case my Heatran is in some trouble, can take the fighting attacks that Heatran attracts, provides a water resistance (quadruple resistance underneath the sun), and a Ground-immunity.

    Multiscale also gives Dnite the chance to set up on virtually anything. For instance, Dnite can come in to revenge Latios. Even if Latios didn't use Draco Meteor the first turn, he can't OHKO through Multiscale. On the other hand, Dnite can use DD, boost up to 426 speed, proceed to outspeed, and OHKO with Dragon Claw. Dnite also serves as a beastly check to Scizor, coming in with Multiscale, then taking around 30% from Bullet Punch and OHKOing with Fire Punch, which gains psuedo-stab under the sun.

    Dnite comes in a lot as my clean-up towards the end of a match. It can set up on almost anything and then proceed to run through the opposing team. Its natural bulk also gives it good insurance against priority. The moves are pretty standard. I chose Dragon Claw over Outrage since I don't like being locked into a single move. Fire punch gains STAB under the sun and is awesome for breaking Steel-type Pokemon. EQ provides a nice OHKO on Heatran, and other Fire-types. Extremespeed would've been cool, but I only have four move slots. :(

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    Starmie @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 4 HP/ 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SAtk / 30 Spd
    - Ice Beam
    - Thunderbolt
    - Psychic/Psyshock
    - Rapid Spin


    And the last, but certainly not least, member of the team: Starmie! It's been OU since Gen 1, and for good reason. It provides my team with the much-necessary Rapid Spin support (keeps Dnite's Multiscale, allows Ninetales to come in unscathed, etc.) Starmie might seem like an odd choice on a sun team (it loses its STAB) but trust me, it works amazingly well. It doesn't really miss the STAB since it gets superb coverage. I also don't use it to sweep. At most, it's cleaning up at the end of a match or revenge killing niche threats.

    Starmie is a pretty speedy mon, and can revenge kill a lot of troublesome things. It gets the OHKO on Haxorus, Thundurus-T, Tornadus-T (after SR), and a lot of annoying Dragons. It can't do as much to Latias or Latios due to their special bulk, but it's still awesome. It can also come in and revenge SD Gliscor with a fast Ice Beam. Thunderbolt is nice as it lets me hit Politoed and other rain sweepers really hard. It also gives Boltbeam coverage which is awesome. HP Fire is mostly to abuse the sun. It gains pseudo-STAB, which means that under the sun, it's actually Starmie's most powerful move. It also allows Starmie to "escape" from Scizor (by killing it outright). And allows Starmie to avoid getting walled by Ferrothorn (who gets OHKOd by almost every member of the team. xD). I miss having Recover and Psychic on my Starmie (as I used to have) but I don't really see where they can fit in.



    After considering Thunder Wave, HP Fire, and Hydro Pump, I have finally settled on Psychic/Psyshock as my last move on Starmie, allowing it to outspeed and kill important threats such as Terrakion, Keldeo, and Conkeldurr. It's also a STAB move that will leave a dent in anything not Dark-type.


    How They Work Together:

    Ninetales+Breloom:

    They keep the weather up and going, and do it pretty well. Breloom can kill T-tar with a Mach Punch and threatens Politoed with a Bullet Seed (although the rise in ScarfToed has made its job tougher.) Abombasnow....is easily dealt with. Mach Punch/Flamethrower and the Christmas tree is dead. The two together help me maintain the weather advantage, which is really nice against other weather teams.

    Heatran+Dragonite:

    Heatran and Dragonite work pretty well at taking each other's counters out. Dragonite can tank Fighting moves, hitting back with Dragon Claw/EQ/Fire Punch. Heatran can take the Ice and Dragon moves aimed at Dragonite. Dragonite is immune to the Ground type moves Heatran fears. In general, a very potent offensive duo.

    Mamoswine+Starmie:

    Between the two of these, opposing Fliers and Dragons are knocked out of the sky. Both carry Ice type moves, and Mamoswine has priority while Starmie gets the benefit of amazing speed. They also function in tandem as revenge killers. Starmie can easily take the Fire moves aimed at Mamoswine, while Mamoswine gets the Electric moves aimed at Starmie. Unfortunately, they share a Grass-type weakness, but Grass moves aren't super common, which is good. They can also clean up once threats have been eliminated, both having good enough bulk to take a hit or two and smack back with either straight up brute force (Mamoswine) or good coverage (Starmie).


    THREATLIST:
    The BW2 Metagame is different, but I'll just use the June stats. How I take care of them is underneath each threat.
    Show Hide

    |1 | Scizor |

    Four members of the team carry fire type moves. Scizor is not going anywhere. Dnite can take on pretty much anything it has and OHKO with fire punch. Starmie can outspeed and HP fire.

    | 2 | Dragonite |

    Opposing dragonite are a bit tough, and I always try to have SR up if I see an opposing Dnite. That way, mamo or starmie can come in and screw it over with an ice-type move. Otherwise, I keep my own Dnite at full health so I can come in and revenge kill. Alternatively, Lilligant can put it to sleep. Lots of options.

    | 3 | Tyranitar |

    Lilligant says Hi. EQ from mamoswine and Dnite says hi.

    | 4 | Heatran |

    Heatran is a little tough. I try to have SR up against him, then use Dnite to go in and slaughter him with EQ. If he has an air balloon, Dnite can break his balloon and then OHKO with an EQ. Alternatively, once his balloon is popped, Mamo can come in an EQ as well.

    | 5 | Rotom-W |

    Rotom-W has no business staying in on Lilligant's Leaf Storm. SR helps prevent volt-turning as well as some key prediction. A lot of people don't expect Solarbeam on Ninetales so Ninetales can lay some serious hurt on Rotom-W, possibly even KO-ing after SR damage. Rotom-W on the other hand, does a max of 70% with Hydro Pump underneath the sun if its a Choice Scarf variant.

    | 6 | Terrakion |

    I actually honestly haven't seen a lot of these around, but Lilligant underneath the sun can outspeed as it SDs and put it to sleep or KO it with a Leaf Storm. The key here is to not let it get boosted. Dnite can come in and revenge with an EQ as well if Multiscale is still up.

    | 7 | Ferrothorn |

    Fire type moves kill.

    | 8 | Politoed |

    Lilligant can do amazing damage on it. I've actually found Politoed to be less of a threat than I thought it'd be with Sunny Day Tales and Lilligant.

    | 9 | Gliscor |

    Ice moves galore. Starmie normally does the trick, but Mamoswine can also come and Ice Shard it to death.

    | 10 | Jirachi |

    Under sun, fire moves do a ton to Jirachi. Standard Jirachis also can't do a lot to Heatran, giving it a free switch and opportunity to show off that massive Fire Blast.

    | 11 | Latios |

    Generally, I let Heatran take a hit, and then switch to Starmie or Mamo, who can revenge kill.

    | 12 | Starmie |

    Underneath the sun, no one on my team is weak to water. Lilligant can outspeed underneath the sun and take it out with a nice Leaf Storm, or Ninetales can Solarbeam non LO variants, and Dragonite can come in and revenge if Multiscale is up.

    | 13 | Skarmory |

    Ninetales! You have use! Ahem. JK. Heatran serves better duty here, or Starmie. Starmie can spin AND HP fire. Take that Skarmory!

    | 14 | Landorus |

    Ice type moves.

    | 15 | Salamence |

    ^see above.

    | 16 | Tentacruel |

    EQ off of Dnite or Mamo is pretty much guaranteed to kill this thing.

    | 17 | Forretress |

    It can't do crap to Starmie as Starmie spins and destroys it with hp fire.

    | 18 | Gengar |

    Honestly haven't seen a lot of these around either. Dnite can come in on almost anything and kill. Subs are annoying, but playing around them is possible. Mamoswine's Ice Shard will also hurt. It can't really switch in safely (apart from revenge) so as long as I keep up the offensive pressure, I shoudl be fine.

    | 19 | Celebi |

    Fire type moves. Dragonite is probably the safest switch here, able to take almost everything Celebi's can dish out and KO back with a Fire punch. Heatran can take on variants lacking Earth Power. Starmie can come in and revenge with hp fire. Lilligant can outspeed and put it to sleep.

    | 20 | Magnezone |

    Heatran doesn't exactly fear a lot from this guy. Everyone else also has their own way of dealing with him. Starmie can hp fire, Dnite has EQ, Mamo has EQ, Heatran can earth power or fire blast, Lilligant can put him to sleep, Ninetales can use Flamethrower.

    | 21 | Jellicent |

    Starmie can take Scalds all day long under the sun. Just gotta watch out for the rare Shadow Ball. Alternatively, Lilligant can Leaf Storm Pringles into oblivion.

    | 22 | Breloom |

    Actually tough to deal with now that Techniloom is out. Generally, I let something (Ninetales) take the sleep, and the proceed to batter it with Starmie, Dnite, Lilligant.

    | 23 | Gyarados |

    If it's a bulky variant, Starmie's Tbolt will always do nicely. Otherwise, Lilligant can still outspeed under the sun and put it to sleep, or do damage with Leaf Storm. A lot of Gyarados users expect Ninetales to switch out, so I stay in and WoW them before switching out. After that, Dnite can deal with him. Or even Starmie.

    | 24 | Volcarona |

    Stealth Rock. Then, Heatran uses Roar. gg volcarona.

    | 25 | Ninetales |

    Lol.

    | 26 | Lucario |

    Dnite will take around 60% from a +2 Extremespeed and can KO back with EQ or firepunch.

    | 27 | Infernape |

    Dnite resists both of his stab and he can come in and kill. He's pretty frail so the only case where I'd really have problems is when he comes in to revenge kill.

    | 28 | Haxorus |

    I've already talked about how I deal with this monster.

    | 29 | Hydreigon |

    The same way I deal with all the other dragons. Sleep, Ice, Ice, Ice.

    | 30 | Espeon |

    Espeon doesn't generally bother me too much. Heatran doesn't take a lot of damage, and can KO with sun-boosted Fire Blast.

    | 31 | Reuniclus |

    Haven't seen a bunch of these running around in BW2 but sleep from Lilligant, or just serious heavy pounding will normally do the trick. Heatran also carries Roar to send Reuniclus away before it gets too many boosts.

    | 32 | Donphan |

    Starmie. Bye bye SR and bye bye Donphan.

    | 33 | Jolteon |

    Ninetales can survive a thunderbolt and OHKO with a flamethrower.

    | 34 | Blissey |

    Mamoswine's EQ hurts it massively. It's a bit of a pain, and I haven't seen a lot running around, but Dnite can also set up in front of it and KO.

    | 35 | Gastrodon |

    Lilligant is saving my life.

    | 36 | Tornadus |

    Starmie and Mamoswine can revenge.

    | 37 | Conkeldurr |

    Lilligant, you are my favorite Pokemon.

    | 38 | Alakazam |

    Mamoswine can OHKO with Ice Shard after a bit or prior damage. Lilligant can outspeed and Leaf Storm or put it to sleep. Dnite can also come in with full health and kill it.

    | 39 | Cloyster |

    SR is a life-saver here. Starmie can also survive anything but a 5-hit Rock Blast and smash back with a thunderbolt. Lilligant can also outspeed under sun even after an SS and put it out of commission with a Leaf Storm.

    | 40 | Latias |

    Heatran saves my life here. Roar is awesome, and eventually, SR will wear it down to where Mamo can OHKO.

    | 41 | Vaporeon |

    Can't do anything under the sun.

    | 42 | Mamoswine |

    Probably one of my greater struggles. Normally, I try to bait it and get it locked into one move, but I've had a lot of trouble with EB variants.

    | 43 | Metagross |

    Blast it with fire moves.

    | 44 | Venusaur |

    Dangerous. However, Heatran can take on variants lacking EQ, Dnite can come in and destroy it with a Fire Punch, and worst case, Lilligant can put it to sleep.

    | 45 | Dugtrio |

    Bye bye Heatran, Bye bye ninetales. Starmie can outspeed and KO with Ice Beam. Other than that, Mamo swine will destroy it, Lilligant can Leaf Storm, and it's not doing much to Dnite.

    | 46 | Toxicroak |

    Dnite can come and EQ. Sun also destroys is naturally

    | 47 | Hippowdon |

    Lilligant. Starmie. Special attacks in general.

    | 48 | Deoxys-D |

    Lilligant. Put the thing to sleep. If that doesn't work, I can set up on it with Dnite, or WoW it with Ninetales.

    | 49 | Virizion |

    Dnite saves my life with a Fire Punch. It can't do much initially, so I try to batter it with as many boosted Fire moves as I can.

    | 50 | Abomasnow |

    FIRE FTW! Actually thought, Ninetales itself can deal with Abombasnow.

    Other notable threats in the BW2 Metagame:

    Keldeo: dang this this is hard to take down. Sun makes his hydro pump less threatening, and Dragonite can set up and screw him over with multiscale up. Starmie can also outspeed and Thunderbolt if he hasn't accumulated too many boosts. Lilligant can also outspeed and Leaf Storm. With sun up, Lilligant can switch into a Hydro Pump, but a Secret Sword is gonna hurt. Dnite is probably my best bet. Or Starmie.

    The Therians: I've covered them sufficiently.

    Wow long list! I clearly struggle with a few notable threats, but with careful prediction, I can make my way around most of them. Boosting opponents also give me a little stress, but I can deal with most of them by quickly beating them down.


    Closing Comments

    That's all I have on the team right now. I feel like it's a pretty good team. It struggles with a few things (the lack of recovery on any mon hurts) and it does require knowing when to sacrifice, and when to switch, but I feel like the team works well together and functions pretty well in the BW2 OU environment.

    Please, please, please, leave criticism, ideas, thoughts, suggestions, anything that could help me improve the team. I know there's a lot of work that can still be done, so help would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks for taking the time to read through this guys!

    Text Importable:

    Show Hide
    Ninetales @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 136 HP / 120 Spd / 252 SAtk
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Flamethrower
    - SolarBeam
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Sunny Day

    Heatran @ Leftovers
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Fire Blast
    - Earth Power
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Roar

    Dragonite @ Leftovers
    Trait: Multiscale
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
    Adamant Nature
    - Dragon Dance
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Punch
    - Dragon Claw

    Mamoswine @ Choice Band
    Trait: Thick Fat
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
    Adamant Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Ice Shard
    - Stealth Rock
    - Stone Edge

    Starmie @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SAtk / 30 Spd
    - Ice Beam
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Rapid Spin

    Lilligant @ Life Orb
    Trait: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Sleep Powder
    - Leaf Storm
    - Healing Wish
    - Heal Bell
  2. Davaro

    Davaro

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2012
    Messages:
    4
    Your team seems good but in my opinion, there must be a Victrebell with Weather Ball in every sun ou team. I have used it for 2 months and I surprised a great number of players in PO and PokemonBattle.
  3. shofly12

    shofly12

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    160
    thanks! do you have any idea who to switch out for it? i remember playing with it in NU (havnt used it in OU) but it felt a little like saur. too slow out of sun, and not enough utility.
  4. King of Blades

    King of Blades

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2012
    Messages:
    160
    I think your team is just fine as it is, to tell the truth. Given that the main sweeper isn't focused on sunlight abuse except for boosted fire punch and the main chlorophyll abuser runs a support set, I don't think that anything here needs replacing or is outclassed by victreebel. Granted, victreebel is good, but this isn't the kind of sun team that victreebel would like.

    As for dugtrio, you may want to put a shed shell on ninetales so as to conserve the weather setter. Heatran can also run an air balloon in order to switch on him if you really must keep him alive.

    Also, this isn't hyper offense, it's more of a balanced offense. Just saying.

    Good luck with the team!

    ~KoB
  5. Sayonara

    Sayonara don't forget

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2011
    Messages:
    778
    Hi. This team is well-built. One thing I would recommend is to change Starmie's EV spread from 252 SpA / 252 Spe to 32 HP / 248 SpA / 228 Spe. Due to HP Fire lowering your speed stat by one point, winning a speedtie versus opposing Starmie / Azelf is impossible anyways, so 228 Spe will give you just enough speed to outspeed Tornadus, while putting the rest of the EVs for bulk. 252 Spe EVs is unnecessary. Another change would be placing Dragonite's 4 HP EVs to Special Defense. That way, Dragonite will obtain additional Stealth Rock switch-ins, which can be useful in certain situations when Starmie is dead. Finally, I'd switch Mamoswine's item from Choice Band to Life Orb, in order to be able to switch moves and be able to use Stealth Rock without having to switch out after using it once. Great team, and good luck!
  6. mklo14

    mklo14

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2011
    Messages:
    81
    Hey there! Good work so far with this team! Now for some suggestions:

    1. Thunderwave>Hp Fire on starmie

    This one is an easy switch to me. Thunder wave isn't the most common move out there, so one benefit is the shock factor (get it? Shock factor? Thunder waVE??? ya I'll stop now...). Also your team (besides Lilli) isn't really all that fast, I see you suffering from different choice scarf users and I feel this would help a lot. You said the main use for HP fire is so he's not walled by scizor, but you have so many ways to kill scizor that this is unnecessary.

    2. It looks like your team could struggle from opposing heatran, and that they would probably take some playing around to take them out, so I suggest an air baloon for your heatran! While you lose recovery, you gain the ever valuable, ability to wall other opposing heatran who don't have dragon pulse to get rid of your baloon! You also may consider, dropping the speed evs in favor of SPD evs. You don't really have much that you need to outspeed anyways, and the SPD evs help you tank Special attacks, which your team does not seem very good at.

    3. Different Mamo set
    Ok so you've got a choiced mamo with SR. I realize that you want a poke with sr, and you also want a choiced mamo but I don't believe this is a good idea. You go in to setup SR, then are forced to switch out. Lets say you send him in on a CM latios. You force the switch and you get SR up. But he switched to a CM Keldeo, he then proceeds to use calm mind as you switch out. Now you have a +1 SPA, SPD Keldeo to deal with... This situation could happen with tons of different pokes. Letting them get a free boost, and then you having the possibility of losing the match.

    Solutions: Here I think you have some options.

    1. Change SR to icicle crash, and just don't have SR on your team.

    2. Change SR to superpower, and change your heatran set to a specially defensive one with SR. (Go look at the smogon analysis for the set)
    **this would make you more heatran weak

    3. Change Mamo to an SR set (see his smogon analysis)

    4. Or you can switch choice band to Life orb

    Here are the links to those sets I mentioned:

    http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/mamoswine
    http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/heatran

    I'd say life orbs the route to go, but it's your choice!

    Hope I helped at least a little
  7. shofly12

    shofly12

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    160
    Thanks guys! I'm working on editing the team to make it even better (have adopted some of your suggestions). Also, currently considering Breloom over Lilligant for added power. Let me know what you guys think of the idea!
  8. Sayonara

    Sayonara don't forget

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2011
    Messages:
    778
    Hi! I find Lilligant is a good utility teammate, since Healing Wish is extremely useful to get a weakened Dragonite or Mamoswine back in good shape, giving them a second chance to sweep. Thanks to Chlorophyll, Lilligant can quickly use Healing Wish, which is useful. Also, Leaf Storm OHKOs Tyranitars lacking bulk investment, which is helps your team against opposing weather. Just a suggestion - I would change Lilligant's EVs from 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe to 252 SpA / 64 SpD / 192 Spe.

    I find that EV spread is more efficient. Just some thoughts.
  9. DestinyUnknown

    DestinyUnknown in other words...
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2011
    Messages:
    1,421
    Hey,

    You have a pretty cool team, but it seems a bit weak to Nasty Plot Celebi, as it can easily set up on Lilligant and even Starmie if it's at full health, and at +2, it can KO every member in your team. The easiest way to fix this would be using Hidden Power Fire on Lilligant, which can not only Revenge Kill Celebi but it simply prevents it from setting up, Hidden Power Fire also makes sure Lucario can't set up on Lilligant and wreck your team.

    Your team is also slightly weak to Terrakion (and other Fighting types like Keldeo in general) as your main way to deal with Fighting types (Dragonite) can't take common attacks like Stone Edge from Terrakion or a Keldeo's Hidden Power Ice, while Starmie is too frail to be able to switch on powerful attacks and it can't do jack due to the lack of a stab move. Something you could try is using a 248 HP / 32 SpA / 228 Spe EV Spread on Starmie, while using Psyshock over Hidden Power Fire, as this will allow Starmie to switch on Terrakion and Keldeo and defeat them.

    Hope I helped.
  10. shofly12

    shofly12

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    160
    Thanks for the comments guys! I'll be experimenting with different Starmie sets, see what works out best (since that seems to be the most flexible thing right now). Let me know if you guys notice anything else!
  11. chimpact

    chimpact fire nation
    is an official Team Rateris a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2006
    Messages:
    1,687
    There's really no point in having both Earthquake and Fire Punch on Dragonite. Fire Punch is usually the superior move hitting levitating steel types for more damage. The only thing EQ would hit would be heatran/tyranitar at full. If you replace EQ with Roost, you have more survivability. I don't really have any other suggestions without killing the synergy of your team.
  12. shofly12

    shofly12

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    160
    I have EQ mostly for hitting heatran and t-tar hard but I'll definitely consider switching out to roost, It's just tough because opposing heatran with max speed can completely run through my team since my heatran doesn't outspeed and doesn't carry an air balloon.
  13. Asek

    Asek Mirror my malady, Transfer my tragedy
    is a Team Rater Alumnus
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2012
    Messages:
    571
    Hey,
    Many other users have already pointed out some great points but yeah I can see some stuff you should try out. Firstly I always suggest running Shed Shell > Leftovers on Ninetales. Losing the weather war on a sun team is worse than for any other weather team and Leftovers recovery isn't as good on Ninetales as being able to evade Dugtrio and the rare Move trappers. If Dugtrio is Banded you effectively get a free turn as well so its definitely worth trying out . Another thing I noticed was that countering other other sun teams and most of your threats can be done by giving Dragonite a Choice Band. I know your saying LOL Dragonite take on Mamoswine what you on, but but believe me when I say that Band gives Dragonite a ridiculously powerful Outrage and Fire Punch and ExtremeSpeed is a priority move that beats all other priority users with its +2 priority ! The reason why you shouldn't use DD nite is that imo it is far too easy to take down in BW2 with the abundance of Mamoswine and other Ice type move carriers with the introduction of the theirans, and 2 set up sweepers that are weak to Ice can mean some sweeps will be ending prematurely. A Dragonite set of Superpower/ ExtremeSpeed/ Fire Punch/ Outrage with 8HP/ 248Atk/ 252Spd/ and Adamant will be real good for your team. Also Mamoswine will lose a chunk of health from ExtremeSpeed anyway so Mamoswine won't be getting off for free either. If you decide DDnite is better you should try out Superpower > Earthquake so pesky balloon tran don't annoy your team and although you will lose a boost, Lilligant has 1 less enemy to worry about before it starts sweeping.
    GL with the team, Hope I Helped:toast:
  14. Trinitrotoluene

    Trinitrotoluene ♪~ i don't want to know what she did; she is not who i am ~♪
    is a Tutoris a Community Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnus
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2010
    Messages:
    1,135
    Hey. Got your request.

    Alright, from a first look at this team, it reminds me of my past sun teams. I like the design this team has, but that design comes with some frightening weaknesses. One weakness I found is that to opposing Air Balloon Heatran. Right now, you have no way of beating it besides sacking one member to break the Balloon and then using Dragonite to revenge kill it. To solve that problem rather neatly, I'd recommend giving your Mamoswine a Jolly nature and Superpower over Stone Edge so it can outspeed and OHKO Heatran. Superpower also gives you a stronger move against Kyurem as well. While you lose a little bit of power, you gain a great amount of speed that I think your team will find useful. Another weakness I found was one to opposing Mamoswine. While you have a good check to Mamoswine in Lilligant, it's only a check at best. Please take the next section of this rate with a grain of salt. To deal with it, I'd recommend trying out Hydro Pump over Hidden Power Fire on Starmie. It's weaker under the sun, but it gives you a greater chance of beating Mamoswine. While you lose a Pokemon that can beat Scizor, you have that covered very extensively by the rest of your team. I probably don't have to say this, but revert your EV spread to the standard 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe.

    Nitpicks:
    [​IMG]
    Adamant ----> Jolly
    Stone Edge ----> Superpower


    [​IMG]
    Hidden Power [Fire] ----> Hydro Pump
    32 HP / 248 SpA / 228 Spe ----> 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe


    Hopefully, this will help you in some way, shape, or form. With all that said, good luck with your team, and have a nice day!
  15. shofly12

    shofly12

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    160
    Thanks for the rate! I will currently be testing the new Mamoswine build as I experiment with Starmie's fourth move:

    Currently considering:

    Hydro Pump,
    HP fire,
    Thunder Wave.

    Please let me know if you guys have any suggestions!
  16. Miles Tails

    Miles Tails

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2012
    Messages:
    80
    Shofly12 Hi this is a great team of sun, do not have much to say except that HP (Rock) can be very useful because with it you get Thundurus-T/Salamance/Dragonite/Tornadus-T, etc ... Pokémon are being used in large quantities.
  17. shofly12

    shofly12

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    160
    After some testing, I have actually decided to use Psychic on Starmie with the following reasoning:

    My team has a fair amount of trouble with fighting types, and there's nothing I can really do to a bulky one apart from hope that lilligant can put it out of commission via sleep.

    However, Starmie with Psychic can both revenge and switch in on predicted fighting moves, which helps it support the team by getting rid of pesky fighting types.

    Let me know what you guys think!
  18. bluewooper

    bluewooper

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2009
    Messages:
    154
    Hey Shofly12, as per your request, I have come to rate your team. I actually have to thank you a lot for asking me to do this; this has helped me immensely, for I had no prior knowledge of Sun Teams before I had seen this one. Since I had no real knowledge base to speak of, I had been forced to test this out on the ladder. Usually, the rates that I have made after extensively testing on the ladder have been my better rates, and I expect this one to be no exception.

    The Problem


    Basically, I came across one of the biggest problems against this team in the very first laddered match. basically, I had gotten crushed, thrashed, and tossed aside. Later, I would face this single problem again and again, faring only slightly better each time. I have no idea how this team would defeat a Sandstorm team. I was not as much concerned about the sand coming up to start the game as I was concerned about this: Who is going to take all of those rock typed attacks? Some of the most common attackers that Sandstorm brings to the frontlines are Tyrantitar, Terrakion, and Landorus. Two receive STAB with Rock typed moves, and the other has the ability Sand Power which will be almost as good as the STAB bonus. the original team that I put into the Ladder usually (always) had to sacrifice a pokmeon to take Tyranitar's Stone Edge to begin the game, since I can't really afford to let Dragonite to take that shot so early in the game, even with multiscale. Even in the Sun, I have found that Rock Polish Terrakion mauls everything in sight. Also, in addition, your team was slightly weak to Dragon attackers, especially (as you said in your post, Bulky DD Dragonite. I think that my suggestion should help with most of the said problems.

    My Solution

    This solution had taken me a while to actually find, as I was consistantly looking for a pokemon that could abuse sun and do all of the above at the same time, which (sadly) isn't possible. So, I found the best alternative. I found a pokemon that can give all of your sun abusers the support that they need. I would have to introduce a Levitate Bronzong for team support. However, I was then faced with the dilemma of figuring out who you would have to lose. As I always do with my replacements, I always chop out the lease productive pokemon, which for me (every match I played) was Lilligant. So, here is the set I was talking about.

    [​IMG]

    Bronzong @ Light Clay
    Relaxed: 252Hp/252Def/4Sp.Def
    (0Spe IVs)
    ~Gyro Ball
    ~Earthquake
    ~Reflect
    ~Light Screen

    Benefits

    I have found that if you play this set well, and you only come in on physical resistances and any immunities, you really won't miss the lack of leftovers recovery that many would find a s a fault of ScreensZong. This set is quite capable of setting up the two screens that Dragonite absolutely loves as he performs his fiery dance. If you could get both screens up and keep Multiscale intact, Dragonite is almost Guraranteed to get 2 dances in, which should be the game for you, unless the opposition is carrying an Ice Sharder. This pokemon gives your team another insurance against Mamoswine, which is the best antimetagame pokemon around now. Unlike Heatran, who really won't want to come in on dragons, Bronzong can (if he needs to) eat an Outrage and retaliate with Gyro ball. You will end up countering many new threats in the metagame that you otherwise would have some difficulty countering. Terrakion, Tyranitar, and Landorus are just some examples of the many that Bronzong helps you to wall and respond to effectively

    Downsides


    Obviously, when you are losing an abuser of the weatehr that you are building a team around, you must do it for great reason. Even though you do gain a lot by Bronzong, there are a few things that you lose with him. First things first, you lose a great answer to Politoed, which means that you will likely have to delegate Starmie to take those Boosted Hydro Pumps. Other than that, you will have 1 less abuser of sun. However, you do have two pokemon that are good abusers, Dragonite and Heatran. Also, you will lose a lot of speed in the sun, and you will also lack Sleep support. However, keep in mind, you will have the screens that Dragonite needs to set up.

    Other Small Changes

    Show Hide
    I would recommend that you remove Roar on Heatran and replace it with Stealth Rock. I have played with your team a whole lot, and I realized that I really hadn't used it at all. Besides, Have found that because of his nice resistances that Heatran is constantly switching in and out, giving him the opportunity to set up rocks early, as opposed to Mamoswine, who had to be saved for a key moment to come in due to his many weaknesses. This will also not hurt Heatran's type coverage, and this will also allow Mamoswine to free up another moveslot for this change . . .

    Which is changing Stealth Rock on Mamoswine to Substitute. Since groudn and Ice have such great super effective type coverage, Mamoswine should be able to dish out a great amount to damage to a pokemon given the opportunity to figure out which type to use. By using Substitue, many pokemon who would like to come in on a resisted ice Shard would end up being killed anyway. For example, should you use a substitute when you switch in, any Heatran expecting an Ice shard is dead meat. I found that this has been a very effective move for Mamoswine.




    Hey Shofly12. This team was really a good experience for me to look at, critique and rate. I really do hope that you can implement these changes, and have new succes with them.
  19. shofly12

    shofly12

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    160
    OK. So since Blue Wooper's suggestion I've been looking at how to make my team stronger against what I consider the biggest threats to it right now:

    Sand. and Fighting Type Pokemon.

    To combat that, I'm currently testing out two DIFFERENT team edits (I know I know. Biting off way more than I can chew.) But here we go:

    First Team edit: Change Lilligant->Bronzong as per Blue Wooper's suggestion. He's listed a bunch of pros and cons above, which are awesome, and accurate, but I'll add in a little bit of my own experience:

    It was great having Bronzong to act as a Dual Screener. However, I felt like Bronzong just couldn't pull its own weight at times, having no recovery and everything. While it's super bulky, and has an awesome set of resistances, I'm still not completely convinced. Also, the loss of an automatic kill on Politoed makes me sad. Huge Gyro Ball damage on Ttar is awesome though.

    Team edit 2:

    Switch Mamoswine for Donphan and Starmie for Latias as per the following sets:

    Donphan @ Leftovers
    Ability: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP/ 252 Atk/ 4 Def
    Moves:
    -Rapid Spin
    -Earthquake
    -Stone Edge
    -Ice Shard

    WHATTT???? NO STAB ICE SHARD????? WHAT WHAT WHAT WHAT WHAT.
    I know. Let me explain. With all my problems with sand, I needed to find something that could help counter sand, but also wouldn't compromise me against rain. While Donphan is ridiculously cliche on sun teams, I found that he could offer a vital Rock resistance, while also offering spin support, being decently bulky, and hitting hard enough. While it's certainly no Mamoswine in terms of power, 120 base attack also isn't exactly something to make fun of. Basically, I took Mamoswine's Ice Shard, Starmie's Rapid spin, put them together, added some bulk, and took away power.

    Latias @ Life Orb
    Nature: Modest
    EVs: 152 HP/ 176 SpA/ 180 Spe
    Moves:
    -Draco Meteor
    -Psyshock
    -Recover
    -Hidden Power [Fire]

    Before anyone shoots me, I know this set is walled to Hell and back by Heatran. However, this Latias actually plays an important role on the team. It's, first of all, much bulkier than Starmie. While the EVs mean it's not going to be outspeeding as much as Starmie, it still outspeeds all non-Scarfed Dragons minus opposing Latias and Latios, meaning I can still revenge them with a surprise Draco Meteor. With this change, I realize that my team is now more weak to opposing Sub CM Latias (my best bet is to just keep up the offensive pressure and never let them set up. And then pummel them with Dragonite). However, this Latias helps my team immensely against opposing Fighting-Types with a powerful Psyshock. It also serves a good surprise to the pink blobs. HP Fire is mostly there to destroy Scizor and other Steels, but I'm considering swapping out it out for CM in order to bluff a SubCM set while also offering an answer to opposing CMers. Of course, that means I get utterly walled by Steels, but those, in general, are hit by almost everything else on the team, so I'm not completely sure.

    Let me know what you guys think!
  20. Gamester

    Gamester

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2011
    Messages:
    50
    Eugh, I'm no good at helping tweak teams. I usually just take what works and build from there.

    In this case I'd say Ninetales,Latias,Heatran and maybe Mamoswine are the best aspects of your team that I'd build on

    In the case of your current team however I'd recommend lum berry dnite with outrage because it's just so ridiculously strong.
    I'd also say a Magma Storm Heatran would be rather beneficial with willowisp to cripple physical attackers
  21. shofly12

    shofly12

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    160
    bumping due to some bigger changes with the team. Please rate guys! Any comments or anything would be appreciated.
  22. Absolete

    Absolete

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2012
    Messages:
    89
    Small critique here, but I would use Hidden Power [Ice] over Dragon Pulse on Heatran. Below is the list of pokemon that resist Fire/ground (I think it's all of them):

    Charizard, Gyarados, Aerodactyl, Moltres, Dragonite, Mantine, Ho-oh, Wingull, Pelipper, Altaria, Salamence, Rayquaza, Mantyke, Archen, Archeops, Ducklett, Swanna, Rotom W, Rotom H, Latias, Latios.

    Now if we remove all the things that are very, very rarely going to be a threat to this team:

    Gyarados, Aerodactyl, Moltres, Dragonite, Salamence, Archeops, Rotom W, Rotom H, Latias, Latios.

    Of the list, you'll hit Dragonite, Salamence, Archeops, and Aerodactyl harder with HP Ice than with Dragon pulse. Additionally, the STAB on Fire Blast takes it's BP to 180. When hitting Gyarados and the Rotom forms, Fire Blast actually has the same resisted BP as Dragon Pulse. As far as the Lati twins go, here is your only draw back. You lose an effective 40 BP when attacking them, factoring in the extra 20 BP of Dragon Pulse and the Super Effective hit. However, the Lati twins aren't something Heatran really prefers to be up against, and can be played around with your team.
  23. SpecsX

    SpecsX

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2012
    Messages:
    370
    This looks like a great team, but I think you should have Force Palm over Low Sweep on Breloom. It gives you a pseudo-double status, and permanently slows threats, instead of resettng until they switch out.

    Great team!
  24. MysticNova

    MysticNova

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    87
    Sorry if this sounds weird, but what exactly is the purpose of Ninetales on this team? I mean only Heatran and Dragonite benefit at all. Both of these mon's have extreme flaws that prevent them from having the same kind of impact as other abusers. As a sun user, you should be trying to pack as much of a punch as possible as to make up for Ninetales. You kind of just kept on trying to cover up the weaknesses of sun... until it was no longer really sun.

    If you want to stop opposing weather (which is really the only use I can see for Ninetales), running something like Sunny Day on Heatran or something faster is probably better as when other teams see no weather inducer, they tend to be more careless about their own weather inducer. I've also seen many times where people have tried to include a mon or strategy to take down weather teams. I find that this is honestly not the best way to go, as this will end up backfiring on you if you are not facing that specific weather and good weather teams will have a way of dealing with that specific "weather counter". Instead, you should use powerful attacks and good synergy while keeping common threats in mind. This gives you pretty much another team slot to use.

    However, seeing as this is supposed to be a sun team, I really think a strong abuser of some kind should really be used. I would also like to say that your Latias and Donphan choices are quite solid. However, I would like for you to consider using a more offensive LO Latios with the same moves over Latias and a CB Scizor over Donphan.
    The reasons for this are the following:
    1. Latios's power and speed more than make up for the small amount of bulk that is lost.
    2. Scizor's Bullet Punch is such a valuable tool on any team and can revenge dragons and therians just as effectively as Ice Shard.
    3. Donphan is not a very good spinner, and spinning honestly costs you a lot of momentum.
    4. An additional steel type is always very helpful.
    Oh and this is just a small note, but consider an Air Balloon on Heatran as this is really annoying on sun teams with smart switching as it effectively counters opposing Heatran and Dugtrio and is overall a pain to deal with (having faced it myself several times).
    Sorry if I misunderstood this team's purpose, but hope I helped and good luck!

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