All Gens The "What if" thread - Topic #66 : Physical-Special split in ADV

I liked the explosion nerf as boom is really annoyingly powerful in previous gens ahahahah. That said, boomers obviously gain a certain advantage with shit like CB metagross maybe gaining favor again (Skarmory gets almost ohkoed!!!). Would be fun af to see this change regardless of how borked explosion is ~_~ this could also create ADV-esque mindgames w/ Gengar or like Jellicent on the boom
 

Typhlito

One Active Dawg
is a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis an Artist Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
Alright next up we have what if heal bell existed in rby?



Rby is a tier that uses status to the max since there isnt a move outside of rest to remove it. But what if that wasnt the case? You could now probably play a bit more reckless since you dont have to worry about having a mon crippled for the rest of the game. So to make this interesting all mons that can learn heal bell from move tutors in newer gens can have it in this topic. So that includes the following mons; clefable, wigglytuff, chansey, jynx, lapras, eeveelutions and mew. So how will this move change how RBY is played? Will new threats appear and old threats fade away? Will it change up other RBY tiers besides just ou? You tell me!
 
Last edited:
wow big deal right there. Obviously Chansey gets even better, Jynx probably makes use of it as well since its next best 4th slot option is Rest (lol). I'm not sure what else really makes the cut, since even if it gets Heal Bell, the issue is that almost everything that does get Heal Bell would be outclassed by the blob. I'd go so far as to say the meta revolves around Chansey even more, and teams that rely on para spam are simply way less viable as they now have to have a plan for unparalysed Chansey, Starmie etc. Places a lot of emphasis on explosion as well I guess

Another effect is that fast pokemon in general become even better- we'd see Tauros being a prime Chansey switch-in comparable with Lax maybe. Slowbro loses out in a big way since much of its viability hinges upon being able to cripple pokemon such as Starmie and Zapdos. Goddamn, paralysing Starmie is a big deal as it is, with Heal Bell support it could be incredible. Also rip GolDon lol.

In Ubers Heal Bell would be an absolute godsend, given the massive role freezes play in Ubers. If losing a M2 freeze war no longer means losing the game that does absolute wonders for the meta's playability.
 
Last edited:

Isa

I've never felt better in my life
is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
lapras would prolly be a top 1 heal beller because it can afford to give up the moveslot, chansey doesn't really wanna do that

also an unfreezable heal beller in rby? pp stall wars
 
Chansey doesn't necessarily get better. She has no room for Heal Bell. In fact, she needs to watch out. In curing herself of paralysis, she has to constantly be aware for freezes. Jynx is a far better candidate. Immune to freezes and has a spare moveslot. And yeah, same for Lapras, really good.
 
I don't see how Chansey struggles to fit Heal Bell on its set. Softboiled/IB/Twave/Bell sounds perfectly fine to me. I mean sure its 4th slot options are actually useful but it's not as though that isn't outweighed by Heal Bell, while nothing else gets Bell and recovery. Also idk why I overlooked Lap initially lol I guess I'm too used to using all of Blizz/Bolt/CRay/Slam.
 
Jynx seems like an unreliable Heal Beller, since it's often put to sleep Turn 1 (opposing Gar or Jynx, LK miss against Hypno / Egg), though it's useful for shrugging off TWaves from Zam / Starm / Jolt. It also isn't extremely bulky, so it has some trouble pulling it off. That's not to say it wouldn't enjoy it as a fourth move, but it probably wouldn't make for a great dedicated beller.

Chansey could now rock Bell / Soft / TWave / IB or SToss, which would be pretty amazing for defensive teams. I think something that's been overlooked so far is how much better Rest becomes when you have a beller like Chansey on the team. Egg would definitely love to Rest off damage, get the sleep removed later, and come back for a second round. Rest Lax and Bro also appreciate the support. Rhydon now stands out a bit more from Golem, thanks to its extra bulk and more available moveslots. Lapras could opt to be the beller or run Rest itself for Chansey to heal off later. Obviously, you wouldn't want to overload on mons relying on Chansey to cure off their Rest, but packing one or two is definitely nice for teams that play at a slower pace, especially with the way luck can quickly turn in RBY.
 

Typhlito

One Active Dawg
is a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis an Artist Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
Alright so heres our next one. What if steel types dont exist in gsc?



So we know steel types were created to help balance out the normal types of rby but what if the type was never introduced? So all steel types will become rock types instead except for magneton/mite which would remain mono-electric. Would the new "rock" types be able to make a difference in this meta? Will new threats appear and will currents threats fade? You tell me!
 

Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Well, Snorlax would just be objectively broken. Because Rock/Flying Skarmory would be far less useful. Weakness to Rock means it can't check Tyranitar, Machamp, Marowak, etc nearly as well. It also becomes worse against Cloyster, Starmie, and Exeggutor. Skarmory would still check Snorlax and would still have value as a result. But because it's just worse defensively in general, it's easier to wear down and it's lower utility (same goes for Steelix) probably result in a more obviously broken Lax.
 

Jorgen

World's Strongest Fairy
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
Snorlax is already borked to hell.

My first reaction was that Skarm might actually prefer being Rock to avoid getting Fire Blasted. Then I realized that no Lax would ever run Fire Blast if not for Steels. Surf probably becomes the coverage move of choice, with maybe Shadow Ball to hit the Ghosts on a mixed set. Drumlax is probably relegated to outright gimmick status; Lax doesn't need that to bust through Skarm anymore.

Exeggutor becomes pretty gnarly without Skarm being able to check it. Umbreon probably starts to see more use to deal with it.

Forretress really suffers. Sure, it's no longer OHKOed by random Fire Blasts, but it's no longer Toxic immune and is weak to Surfs now, meaning it can't stay in to Toxic Cloy or HP Bug Starmie. Qwilfish probably becomes a real thing as stalls will thirst for a Toxic-immune Spiker. Or they just carry more Bell; that's probably more likely.

Speaking of stalls, they will continue to exist. Sure, Skarm being bad seems kinda like a hit to stall, but Suicune is still a very tough nut to crack. I actually wouldn't be surprised to see stall teams go on the rise, as Toxic will be way more effective without Steels around.

I think Bughouse is onto something with those Physical threats. There's no longer a need for Physical attackers to carry random Fire Blasts to beat Skarm if it's weak to Rock. This means heavy hitters like Marowak and Machamp probably start to be somewhat preferred over mixed attackers like Nidoking, who currently reigns supreme in no small part due to its ability to easily handle Skarm. If stalls get more commonplace, the brute force of the Marowaks and Machamps of the world becomes more necessary, too.

Steelix is just crap without the Steel typing. Just use Rhydon. Even Golem's better. Speaking of Steelix, Zapdos' and Raikou's lives get a lot easier without him around. Especially Raikou's life. Score 1 more point for stalls.
 

Oglemi

Borf
is a Top Contributoris a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnusis a Top Dedicated Tournament Host Alumnus
Muk probably becomes the best target-Exploder in this meta, no longer needs Fire Blast and can run Curse + Giga Drain, or could have room to run Thunder or Dynamic Punch. Also can spam Curse + Sludge Bomb and not have to worry about getting utterly shitblocked by Steelix and to a lesser extent Skarm (still would be an issue without Thunder or DPunch I guess).

Turbodrumming would be interesting in this meta to be sure. I don't think DrumLax becomes a gimmick since it still shits on most stall but CurseLax does just become so much better with 3 less overall checks to it. ThorLax would be more common I think since Suicune and Cloy would be everywhere.
 

Typhlito

One Active Dawg
is a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis an Artist Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
Well while I could see lax easily becoming better and muk does seems like a really cool option without steel types to worry about but theres one mon nobody mentioned that probably should have is tauros since skarm and fortress were pretty much the biggest reason it wasnt used much. It could run surf to take care of these guys altho it might have the same problem trying to fit it in like it did with fire blast.
 
I don't see Tauros being that good tbh. There's a ton of ways it lost out in GSC and steel types are only part of it. Less crits, no Hyper Beam, Lefties meaning stuff is bulkier as well as the special split meaning it can't hit physical walls as hard, so Skarm checks it regardless. Maybe I'm overlooking something idk.
 
Well, if Tauros is running some kind of curse set it's just a frail, less powerful curselax with a little more speed (bad). If it's not running a curse set it's running a mixed set with Fire Blast or Thunder most likely, so I don't think Steels really have much to do with Tauros not being used (its SAtk is actually weaker than Snorlax's so maybe skarm counts as a "check"). I'd say that it's mons like Suicune, Rhydon, Machamp, etc. that make Tauros' job more difficult.

Maybe Sandstorm stall would be more viable than it currently is since the Steel-gone-Rock types are immune regardless and are presumably used less in light of being less viable. I'm not entirely sure how it'd play out since Sandstorm stall isn't a huge part of the meta already. No special boost though, q.q

It might be worth it to chose Aero>Skarm so your Lax wall/check/whatever doesn't welcome in electrics with open arms. IIRC it's still bulky enough to wall curselaxen (I'm assuming it's not Thunder/SurfLax though).
 
Tentacruel likes the change. While it had the decent water moves for Steels already, they become a non-factor now, and Suicune doesn't like the constant boosted Sludge Bombs. That said, the electrics would be even more relevant in the meta than before.
 

Isa

I've never felt better in my life
is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
idk how much more present than "omnipresent" the electrics could be tbh
 
Fire-Type coverage remains as irrelevant as in RBY as there's no relevant threat to hit it with, paired with the risk of burning a special attacker, who can then stave off paralysis and Toxic easily.

Rock/Flying is probably a more useful typing for Skarm to take on Snorlax as Surf is weaker than Fire Blast, but Forry, Skarm and Steelix suffer in most other matchups.
 

cookie

my wish like everyone else is to be seen
is a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
burn is more or less irrelevant since:
1. fire blast's burn chance is only 10% from gsc onwards
2. the concept of status shielding doesn't exist in gsc with heal bell/rest
3. burn damage is double that in rby, and par with toxic after switching out in gsc

swordspass scizor becomes cool with swords dance/hp rock/baton pass/return, since it completely wrecks skarmory now in return for getting fucked harder by suicune. Rhydon/Steelix completely dominate it but they won't see so much use in this meta. If it gets Rock Slide to replace STAB lost with Steel Wing, then it gets a bit better as it can punish Starmie that tries to switch in, and deter Tyranitar too.
 

Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Skarmory doesn't get Rock Slide, it's stuck with Hidden Power if it wants to use its new STAB.
 

Typhlito

One Active Dawg
is a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis an Artist Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
Sounds good. So how about this one? What if u-turn existed in ADV?


no good pics for this :[

So in adv, the only momentum building moves that exist are baton pass and boom(to an extent) but what if u-turn was thrown into the mix? Any mon that learns it in dpp can learn it in this situation. So will new threats appear and will current threats fade? You tell me!
 

Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Barely anything viable in OU gets U-turn, wow.

Banded Flygon is probably the only thing that would run it consistently since it still nabs Celebi while letting you scout, which could bump it up to S-Rank.
 

eren

je suis d'ailleurs
Typholito is ugly.

U-turn would be realy good for mons such as Flygon as Karx mentioned above. I think being able to drop Hp bug and having a banded set of Eq and U-turn with much more filler options now is neat. These include: Fire Blast, Toxic, Rock slide, and then any hidden power. This makes Flygon 100% more versatile and a much bigger threat in general, probably to high A rank Material (S is a bit high due to lack of capabilities of hitting bulky waters even when banded).

Other nice mon that could get this is Jirachi, which could open up a bit more potential for a physical set with U-turn, Body Slam, Doom Desire, Wish while still being an obviously potent Calm minder. This can make Jirachi a potenital dugtrio lure (IP doesnt kill if Duggy has some HP invested or if Jirachi is bulky CM) of sorts when used with Defensive DD mence to crush Dugtrio, potenitaly opening a sweep for CM Rachi (which would forgo wish I suppose on a lire U-turn set) or even a Raikou sweep.

Also, Doom Desire activating on the third turn could be helpful as well, Duggy comes in turn 1 on a doom desire. Turn 2 Jirachi takes around 95 from banded eq and proceeds to U-Turn, which can bring in something that forces potential desire resists to stay and retains (something such as bp celebi). This keeps offensive momentum up while notching a hit on something. In theory, a physical set is gimmicky but could possibly work.

The issue is the limited use of U-turn within the tier itself, so in reality, while it should make an impact on Dugtrio's trapping abilities, in reality it doesnt with only 2 notable mons learning it.

E: holy shit I write like a first grader
 
Last edited:
It may not have Bullet Punch just yet, but U-Turn would've made Scizor relevant due to the incredible power of it. It's also slow, allowing it to bring in a frail sweeper easily. Always consider how the change could make something otherwise weak impressive.
 

Disaster Area

formerly Piexplode
Crobat now sucks less.. I could see something like crobat+magneton working maybe? On that note probably Ninjask sucks a little less too with a good STAB on its base 90 attack.. still I dunno if it can really do anything much else. I think in OU that's about it other than scizor/flygon/jirachi in OU gaining from it.

in NU, beedrill pelipper raticate venomoth and yanma gain it in particular. I think it would push raticate over the edge (u-turn CB raticate+diglett anyone?), pelipper might use it occasionally, as would venomoth (better than silver wind anyway but it has a lot of uses for its moveslots) and yanma and beedrill aren't especially important but might enjoy the tool a little.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top