All Gens The "What if" thread - Topic #66 : Physical-Special split in ADV

[Jorgen]

Unless you're playing for the endgame PP stall, Toxic doesn't do a whole lot other than block things from eating Twave. Which makes it bad. I could maybe see it on Egg, because its 4th is rarely super useful and it might be nice to have that in your back pocket if a (somehow unparalyzed) Reflect Chansey is sitting there being fat in your face. That and Zapdos (something it occasionally does anyway), because what else is it going to do to GolDon?

 

[Mr.E]

It's of more interest against Golem specifically, since Rhydon would just go back to running Rest in its fourth slot instead of usually Sub or whatever. Golem doesn't have room for it because of Explosion. At any rate, it's a nifty filler move to bother the Recover core (including Chansey). I imagine the rest of the metagame adapts to running more Rest on everything else and the impact ultimately ends up not being that big, but still kind of a useful thing to have in your back pocket. Tauros/Persian are about the only things you definitely want to PAR over PSN, as much as Zam might want to keep its Speed it's also kinda ruined by Toxic when its major appeal is that it can technically stand in there and 1v1 anything (it just has Psychic PP problems) due to Recover and sky-high Special. Maybe Victreebel gets used more since it's the closest thing to a viable Poison-type.

The glitch still exists in GSC, mind, but it barely matters because none of the Recover trio (Zam Starmie Chansey/Blissey) see all that much use out of Starmie spinning. Virtually everything else carries Rest, because Sleep Talk is nuts, or lack of recovery means it doesn't matter much because the chip damage is fatal over the course of a few switches regardless. Regular poison is almost better because of its superior short-term damage between switches to force Rests. It would dick Starmie versus Pursuiters though, and maybe the odd Porygon2.

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

In the case of Golem, you still have to watch out because all Toxic would do is probably force it to boom faster. Same with hitting Egg.

I'd definitely prefer poisoning Chansey over paralysis myself. While it can switch to reset the damage, it's not like it'll screw you over too much without the possible loss of turns. Completely a different story with Snorlax though. Much rather paralyze, and try to lock it down as quick as possible. And it booms too. I don't know, it's Snorlax. It'll fuck you up regardless of what you might do to it.

Teambuilding would change some because you'd have to balance out utilizing both statuses if you choose to use poison (because I think it's a good status now). If you want to use Lapras, careful about throwing Toxics around (even considering the new Body Slam). Slowbro like paralysis for obvious reasons, and should also never carry Toxic itself.

 

[Fawfulmk-II]

well then hazard wise it would go from Freeze>Para>Sleep>Confu>Poison>Seed>Burn to Freeze>Para>Poison>Sleep>Confu>Burn>seed in effectiveness.

factor in that nearly everyone can learn Toxic and stuff like Chansey or Wrap users would become mad deadly. Gengar would probably go from Top 10 usage to potential Top 5, due to being able to wall it successfully.

As a bonus, if it had the Gen 6 Perk of being undodgeable with a Poison type Venusaur and Victrebel would probably be more common and Gengar would possibly be a better lead then Zam.

 

[Typhlito]

Great stuff! Here's another one. What if phazing sends out your next pokemon instead of a random pokemon in GSC?

Thanks Mirabel_ for the topic!

This isn't the biggest change but it seems like it's enough to change how the game is played once you can include the outcome of roar into your strategy. So will this change the metagame as we know it or will it be hardly noticeable? You tell me!

And as usual, if you have an idea for a future topic, feel free to let me know!

 

[cookie]

does this apply to WW too? if so, skarmory gets rekt if it ever tries to pseudo-haze anything in adv, just stick magneton after your snorlax.

 

[Typhlito]

Ah right. It includes all phazing moves.

 

[Mirabel_]

I believe the "next mon" is the first benchmon in all cartridge games. Benchmon #1 endlessly cycles with the active mon, and you can move any benchmon to the active slot by switching.

Accounting for this, GSC's stally meta gains a new "benchplay" dynamic, which would involve leaving a stallmon or more aggressively a countermon like Drumsire in the 1st benchslot in case of a phazer phazing, and switching your active mon to another phaze-friendly benchmon to counter anticipated multiphaze. Players would have the option to setup either a stall or counter at any turn they predicted a phaze, but also would run the risk of messing up their projected counterplay every time they predicted poorly (switched a countermon into a counter-countermon). I'm also thinking of dirty combos like Screech into Marowak.

It also allows obscuremons to remain hidden until lategame, something sorely lacking in GSC.

However, if our new mechanic just counts up through the bench slots, I guess it would be harder to make use of, as if you intended to re-use this tactic you'd need to always switch to the same mon after Magneton or Typhlosion did its thing. Both players would have a sense of how the opponent's bench looked as the game progressed, and would know who they were forcing in if they decided to phaze. It does offer a guaranteed way to "Team Preview" over 5 turns and flush out gimmickmons in exchange for initiative. Either way it accomplishes something that makes the games deeper and less random.

 

[Jorgen]

Roar Raikou gets a lot less effective, as it relies on getting a bunch of Roars off on stuff that needs to run away. If you instantly Roar in Snorlax or the opposing Raikou every time, that becomes less of a problem.

 

[Ortheore]

Likewise, physical attackers like Lax get more effective since if you can ensure that the pokemon revealed by Roar is something that can force things like Skarm, Lix and stuff out it becomes harder to keep them in good shape. Of course the issue is that there aren't really any one mon fits all candidates for beating up Lax checks. But then if you consider other physical attackers (Wak, Champ) maybe things become a bit easier idk

 

[Typhlito]

Very good! Here's the next topic. What if gyro ball existed in ADV?

In this scenario, anything that ever learned gyro ball is able to use it here. Will it change the way the game is played or will it's effect be minimal? Will new threats rise while old threats fall? You tell me!

 

[BKC]

Forre is the big one here. It can now hit a lot of big things really hard: Tyranitar, Gengar (huge for spinning obviously), Aerodactyl, Salamence...

That seems to be all; Metagross, Claydol and Magneton have no business using it. I don't think Donphan having a way to hit Gar and Aero in one move is really cause for excitement. Shame Registeel doesn't get it...

edit: how the fuck did I forget Steelix. I'm an embarassment I'm sorry

 

[AJC]

the only two mons of note who benefit the most are steelix (slowest stab user with something of a attack stat) and as already mentioned forry.

every other steel type that existed in gen 3 doesn't get it or is a special attacker and thus is a poor user of gyroball or is metagross and already has a good enough option in meteor mash.

donphan having a move that hits gar and aero in one slot is probably the most noteworthy thing among non-stab users

 

[Typhlito]

Here's a question for you though. Do you think it would ultimately reduce gengars ability to be an effective spin blocker? It already has a hard time consistently spin blocking the likes of claydol and starmie. Now that it has a harder time switching into forre and even donphan, do you think pokemon like dusclops would make a come back or will gengars other qualities still keep it on top?

I mean the fact that gyro ball has low pp and that it makes it easier for mag to come in since forre might have to drop earthquake does offset forre's new capabilities a bit but still.

 

[Cowboy Dan]

While gyro ball will definitely affect gengar's ability to spin block, I don't think it would topple it from its position as the top spin blocker in adv ou. For one, gyro ball doesn't even 2hko bulky variants of gengar, meaning gengar would still spinblock forre pretty well, it just takes a bit more prediction. I can see fire punch gar becoming more common however so that it has the ability to immediately force forretress out instead of having to dance around it like it currently does with claydol. I honestly don't think dealing with gyro ball forre would be that much harder than dealing with current forre with pursuit support, it's probably easier to be honest. Dusclops on the other hand still would have the same problems it's always had, and even with new cons to running gengar, i don't think it would be bad enough to make clops the better option.

 

[Lord Ninjax]

I think Forre would become a better option in that Gengar doesn't screw with it so relentlessly (it also can check the dreaded DDTar+Aero combo in a pinch). 2HKOing Gengar isn't such a big thing though, as unless Gar has Fire Punch (or hits the 60% status move), it's not doing anything back: sand and switchin damage from something else can also chip it into death range. Gengar, though, is equally so good (and has options to play around Forretress still), that it should remain premier SpinBlocker, Dusclops still has a ton of issues that'd set it back - I think that the go-to approach would be Gar+support to abuse the Spinner (even though Forre can now hit some things it can be killed, while Star and Claydol have things that can beat them too).

Also Steelix would be pretty neat, Gyro is a better option vs DDTar and keeps Aero from killing off an EQ crit or some other bs. It also hits stuff like Mence which can be annoying, and can potentially wear down Zap in a 1v1. It wouldn't be that buffed but it would be better.

 

[Typhlito]

Big news for everyone who enjoyed this thread! This is exciting stuff. Thanks to Snaquaza many of these topics will become playable at a steady rate. These new metagames will be hosted on a private server for all to try. It will also be the place where all battles will take place for future tours. You heard right! I will be hosting mini tours in the near future and if they become popular enough, I may even host a few live tours with some of these topics. This thread will continue having new topics so stay tuned for what the next topic might be!

Here's the link of the private server and thread that talks more about the server.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/what-if-server-were-going-live.3570186/

http://aqua.psim.us/

 

[Nails]

damn this thing seems fun. hp steel = gyro ball

252+ Atk Choice Band Steelix Hidden Power Steel (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 301-355 (88 - 103.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelix Hidden Power Steel (126 BP) vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Celebi: 225-265 (55.6 - 65.5%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelix Hidden Power Steel (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Flygon: 365-430 (120.8 - 142.3%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelix Hidden Power Steel (132 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gengar: 262-309 (80.8 - 95.3%)
252+ Atk Steelix Hidden Power Steel (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 306-360 (116.7 - 137.4%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelix Hidden Power Steel (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 173-204 (53.7 - 63.3%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelix Hidden Power Steel (75 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 300-354 (46 - 54.2%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelix Hidden Power Steel (91 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Skarmory: 68-81 (20.3 - 24.2%)
+1 252+ Atk Steelix Hidden Power Steel (138 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Skarmory: 103-122 (30.8 - 36.5%)

the zapdos calc especially is neat, with the tox and bolt immune you're a decent switch in (hp still does low 30s though). steelix gets taunt if you want to 1v1 skarmory as well. if you want a fun meme then block/taunt/curse can do

+6 252+ Atk Steelix Hidden Power Steel vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Skarmory: 300-353 (89.8 - 105.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

buuuuut pp would be an issue of course and +6/-6 gyro doesn't ohko pert

+6 252+ Atk Steelix Hidden Power Steel vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Swampert: 319-376 (78.9 - 93%)
40 SpA Swampert Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Steelix: 338-398 (95.4 - 112.4%)

...and you can do this with iron tail already. also it loses to taunt skarm.

 

[Typhlito]

That sounds awesome. Here's the next topic. What if knock off was buffed in DPP?

Close enough...

Knock off has existed for a few gens now but it hasn't really been seen until it received it buff in ORAS. So what if knock off always had its buff? This means that knock off retains its 65 power. Also, any pokemon who ever learns the move gets it here. So would this move change the meta as we know it or will it not make that much of a difference? You tell me!

Also, this and many other metas are now playable so give them a try and see if your predictions are correct!

http://aqua.psim.us/whatif

 

[Apollo.]

I don't think that would change really the OU metagame :

This move is used mainly for its main effect on 'stallbreakers' (such as Gliscor and Clefable) which is removing the opposing mon item in order to prevent him from like recovering health with Leftovers, hitting hard with Choice Specs ect ..., so the buff is useless on them (even thought on Gliscor you could use to deal chip damage to finish off a mon or something). Knock Off on Weavile could be used as a better STAB (i don't know if it could some 2HKO on like Jirachi thought) since its better than Night Slash. On Scizor, that wouldn't change too many thing : Knock Off is usefull on ORAS OU because it have a neutral coverage and it remove Leftovers away from Heatran/Talonflame, but Leftovers Heatran (defensive/sub variants) is rare and its better to U-Turn out against Defensive Rotom-A on something like a
Tyranitar/Heatran, removing the choice/boost item on Infernape is nice but its rare really to directly switch on it (because it fear superpower and it take a lot of damage from sand and hazard which will make him not anymore a check to like Scizor if its SD in lategame).

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

This one's for the lower tiers. In standard, it's distribution's far too limited in DPP. You need to actually be able to use it with force, otherwise the boost is negligible. What good is a 65 base KO from Tentacruel on a Suicune vs a 20 base one?

Scizor's cool, but it needs to drop Pursuit to use it. Not only that, hitting a fresh Skarmory who can still set hazards does nothing for your momentum, as opposed to U-turn on the switch. Only cool pickup would probably be knocking off whatever Heatran's holding.

Trick outclasses it here. Better distribution on better Pokemon, and more importantly, the chance to cripple targets instead of just annoying them.

Not much to gain without the Dark type boost. Should be a big effect on UU though.

 

[Oglemi]

I mean Weavile is a thing, and while kinda niche atm, Knock Off is a Big Deal for it in ORAS and that would probably transfer to DPP where nothing really wants to lose its item. Granted, Weavile is already basically only removed by revenge killing as it is, so it might not impact much to the metagame, but it's a really big tool in its arsenal.

Drapion and Absol become a bit more threatening in UU with it.

 

[Bughouse]

Probably the biggest impact is in DPP NU, tbh, since there are numerous strong Dark-type Pokemon and few Dark resists in the tier.

Shiftry, Sneasel, and Crawdaunt all get way better as a result of having much better STAB to use.

For example, physical Shiftry used to be an easy switch in for Charizard (especially if no rocks, but even with rocks, it's doable if you have Roost). It doesn't mind Seed Bomb, Low Kick, or Sucker Punch on the switch in. It could explode, but that's at least a double down. Now, Charizard can't safely switch in on Knock Off, since it does >50%, killing if Rocks are up and if not it still neuters Charizard immensely the rest of the match by removing its LO or Lefties, etc.

SD Sneasel becomes more threatening now too cuz you can do things like this against relatively bulky neutral mons
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Muk: 381-448 (92 - 108.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ampharos: 421-496 (109.6 - 129.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Vileplume: 378-445 (106.7 - 125.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Porygon2: 364-429 (97.3 - 114.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

 

[AJC]

the buff happening in gen 4 isn't as big thing here as it was in gen 6, as there's no monsters like adaptability crawdaunt or stuff like Bisharp who benefit from the metagame to fully exploit the BP buff + removable item power boost.

at most it just adds another coverage option to various physically offensive mons that happens to have some perks attached with item removal.

and as others said the majority of who really benefits show up in the lower tiers rather than OU.

heck the main reason is that knock off buff also benefited from steel losing it's dark resist as well so gen 6 style knock off under the pre-gen 6 type chart isn't as brutal.

 

[Donald Trump]

heck the main reason is that knock off buff also benefited from steel losing it's dark resist as well so gen 6 style knock off under the pre-gen 6 type chart isn't as brutal.

yeah but fairy types don't exist in gen 4 so the total dark resists is the same (and fairy types somewhat compete for steels in gen 6 for the niche of dragon resist so they are kind of equivalent)