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All Gens The "What if" thread - Topic #66 : Physical-Special split in ADV
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idk what this would mean in all, but the biggest effect would probably be that Aero and DDMence become less threatening to a lot of teams, and there would be a decline in teams centred around Aero/Jolt or DDers.
SubSalac Hera also becomes less of a gg machine because now it can be revenged, but ScarfCross emerges and becomes pretty threatening, especially on like SDPass: Superachi also becomes a lot less threatening to balanced teams as well.
I think the main Scarfers would be Tyranitar (not that great cause it has to split offensive stats to run Pursuit, but full Physical/Special sets would be nice especially now that it can revenge Superachi. For Pursuiting though Scarf Houndoom would get a better niche as a Pursuiter/mon in general) Heracross, Metagross and Flygon (the last two would be good, they revenge everything significant as well as threatening to sweep on their own.)
As for the picture ScarfMence would be pretty garb, the lack of power sucks while it doesn't beat anything (that Jolly CB doesn't already cover) significant aside from Aero/Jolt/weakened Gar.
SubSalac Hera also becomes less of a gg machine because now it can be revenged, but ScarfCross emerges and becomes pretty threatening, especially on like SDPass: Superachi also becomes a lot less threatening to balanced teams as well.
I think the main Scarfers would be Tyranitar (not that great cause it has to split offensive stats to run Pursuit, but full Physical/Special sets would be nice especially now that it can revenge Superachi. For Pursuiting though Scarf Houndoom would get a better niche as a Pursuiter/mon in general) Heracross, Metagross and Flygon (the last two would be good, they revenge everything significant as well as threatening to sweep on their own.)
As for the picture ScarfMence would be pretty garb, the lack of power sucks while it doesn't beat anything (that Jolly CB doesn't already cover) significant aside from Aero/Jolt/weakened Gar.
I don't know how great scarf gon would be in ADV considering the only move it has that hits decently hard without a band is Earthquake. It would fail to OHKO a lot of the stuff it's meant to revenge kill. I think Jolly Band Gon would still be far better. heracross and metagross would probably be the best users since they have a ton of immediate power not to mention it allows them to outspeed dugtrio, one of the bigger losers if this were to happen. One of the main problems I'm finding with a lot of the mons in adv is they just don't have enough immediate power to make being locked into a move worth it, so not sure how huge the impact would be. Special tar would be an interesting choice as being faster than gar is a huge plus.
Such a handy way check DD users in a pinch. It definitely would be popular to some extent and would change teambuilding some. Not sure of the best/common users though. For checking those with speed boosts, Starmie has great coverage for most of them and outspeeds them all. Comes at the cost of Rapid Spin though (Scarf Spinning to throw sometime off maybe). The are others, but I'm not sure which. It won't be the greatest thing ever, just a key variable added. Meta's still too bulky to make full use of it. Should be good on offense though.
Answering the above:
Scarf Flygon would still be pretty good, as between EQ and Rock Slide it revenges a ton, while still hitting pretty hard with an Adamant Nature (Jolly isn't oh so necessary unless you're really DDMence weak and Adamant damage output is a lot more crucial). I think the really key thing though is that now it outspeeds and comfortably checks Raikou and Jolteon, which is really huge for offensive teams: I also predict that Pert will decline in usage as a lot of the offensive teams that use it as a glue mon to handle Electrics+Physical Offense mons will just start running Scarf Flygon+Offensive Suicune as they cover that pretty comfortably while not being complete momentum drains - also Raikou won't be able to handle the influx of mons that outspeed it and will go quietly to its grave.
Scarf Metagross would be nice, but I did some research and I'm not such a fan anymore: it needs Jolly to outrun Dugtrio+Raikou/Starmie and falls just short of Jolly Aerodactyl :(. It would become better vs offensive teams, especially those that fall back on RKing once their Pert goes down, but the loss in power does set it back a bit. Heracross's coverage does suck a bit but the really solid speed tier (as well as perennially terrifying damage output esp if statused) will keep it strong. Special ScarfTar would rise but it would also need to run EQ to handle Superachi (Kou would die out so not so relevant).
Also I can't believe I forgot Scarf Starmie: it doesn't really need Lefties in any case and can now do the RKing thing a lot better with Psychic as well as boosted speed, as well as still hitting hard and threatening offensive teams by wearing down the Snorlax for something else. It can even clean better lategame now that Aero/Dug/Jolt no longer threaten to revenge it. Loss of Recover hurts but the immediate power+speed+threat factor caused by 4 Atks (as well as Psychic SpDef drops making Lax much more cautious) would make it a top tier threat (potentially bannable).
Scarf Flygon would still be pretty good, as between EQ and Rock Slide it revenges a ton, while still hitting pretty hard with an Adamant Nature (Jolly isn't oh so necessary unless you're really DDMence weak and Adamant damage output is a lot more crucial). I think the really key thing though is that now it outspeeds and comfortably checks Raikou and Jolteon, which is really huge for offensive teams: I also predict that Pert will decline in usage as a lot of the offensive teams that use it as a glue mon to handle Electrics+Physical Offense mons will just start running Scarf Flygon+Offensive Suicune as they cover that pretty comfortably while not being complete momentum drains - also Raikou won't be able to handle the influx of mons that outspeed it and will go quietly to its grave.
Scarf Metagross would be nice, but I did some research and I'm not such a fan anymore: it needs Jolly to outrun Dugtrio+Raikou/Starmie and falls just short of Jolly Aerodactyl :(. It would become better vs offensive teams, especially those that fall back on RKing once their Pert goes down, but the loss in power does set it back a bit. Heracross's coverage does suck a bit but the really solid speed tier (as well as perennially terrifying damage output esp if statused) will keep it strong. Special ScarfTar would rise but it would also need to run EQ to handle Superachi (Kou would die out so not so relevant).
Also I can't believe I forgot Scarf Starmie: it doesn't really need Lefties in any case and can now do the RKing thing a lot better with Psychic as well as boosted speed, as well as still hitting hard and threatening offensive teams by wearing down the Snorlax for something else. It can even clean better lategame now that Aero/Dug/Jolt no longer threaten to revenge it. Loss of Recover hurts but the immediate power+speed+threat factor caused by 4 Atks (as well as Psychic SpDef drops making Lax much more cautious) would make it a top tier threat (potentially bannable).
Scarf starmie would definitely be one of the better users of the item, probably not bannable though it is still choice locked. I think you're over rating flygon's revenge killing ability. Sure it can outspeed a bunch of stuff and hit them hard with the right move, but the thing is without a band backing it up it has a really hard time punishing the opponent for just switching, so it's not actually killing anything and then it's locked into a weak attack and has to switch which is like the definition of momentum draining.
Alakazam should be good with Trick. Like the Band, you still have the ability to cripple a stall mon or some bulky attackers, but without the risk of giving a physical switch the boost (or a dead turn on a CB switch in), like Metagross or Tyranitar. If you snatch a CB, then you can possibly use it to cripple something else later. Nice for your bulky Water like Milotic to not worry about CB attacks, then recover up. This would probably make Special Tyranitar more common which would punish it.
Ok here's another one for you guys. What if politoad and nintales received their weather abilities in DPP?
I would imagine that it would be somewhat similar to bw ou but I want to hear your opinions. Would new threats rise while old threats fade or would the meta stay mostly the same? You tell me!
I would imagine that it would be somewhat similar to bw ou but I want to hear your opinions. Would new threats rise while old threats fade or would the meta stay mostly the same? You tell me!
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Assuming drizzle + swift swimmers is legal then it'd be more broken than Garchomp ever was. Sand will cease to be relevant with no sand rush and sun won't be able to put much of a fight due to their inherent disadvantage against rain. Abomasnow may actually see some usage if only to cancel out the rain without being weak to water spam but otherwise it won't do much else. The fact that DPP has more limited answers to swift swimmers than in BW1 and it still forced the community to respond with a complex ban should be enough to tell that rain would be the first thing anyone should consider when making a successful team, if not the only serious archetype. In case it'd be banned then drought + chlorophyll would see some dominance albeit more tamer but probably busted as well.
Assuming the recent update on Evasion abilities being banned. None of that or mons that had only them.
It would be BW minus the BW mons. It would be more of a matchup based meta with a heavy emphasis on switching and trapping. With no team reveal, you can start your offense at your leisure though.
The power would be different on the rain side. No Keldeo, Analytic Starmie, or Thunderus-T, but also no Ferrothorn, Latias, or Storm Drain Gastrodon to take the Hydro Pumps (no boosted Scalds at least). The lack of the offensive tools wouldn't outdo the lack of defensive ones, so I think Rain would be the top. Sand would still be great because Hippowdon is great as a setter not worried about Dugtrio, plus you still have two of them if you count Tyranitar being great in DPP to begin with.
Actually, Sun would absolutely suck nuts, let's not forget. No Venusaur and a shitty weather starter. Hail sucks even worse and no cheeky evasion strats.
Quagsire will get a lot more use. Run physically defensive variants, as it's the only thing that can take on BoltBeam while also being able to check Kabutops. The Electrics woild run HP Grass more often to hit it.
Kingdra's still a huge threat to any team regardless of type. Quagsire has to watch for Draco Meteor. SpDef Celebi is decent there, except it needs to watch for Ice Beam (good investment blocks the 2HKO). Empoleon takes both STABs.
It would be BW minus the BW mons. It would be more of a matchup based meta with a heavy emphasis on switching and trapping. With no team reveal, you can start your offense at your leisure though.
The power would be different on the rain side. No Keldeo, Analytic Starmie, or Thunderus-T, but also no Ferrothorn, Latias, or Storm Drain Gastrodon to take the Hydro Pumps (no boosted Scalds at least). The lack of the offensive tools wouldn't outdo the lack of defensive ones, so I think Rain would be the top. Sand would still be great because Hippowdon is great as a setter not worried about Dugtrio, plus you still have two of them if you count Tyranitar being great in DPP to begin with.
Actually, Sun would absolutely suck nuts, let's not forget. No Venusaur and a shitty weather starter. Hail sucks even worse and no cheeky evasion strats.
Quagsire will get a lot more use. Run physically defensive variants, as it's the only thing that can take on BoltBeam while also being able to check Kabutops. The Electrics woild run HP Grass more often to hit it.
Kingdra's still a huge threat to any team regardless of type. Quagsire has to watch for Draco Meteor. SpDef Celebi is decent there, except it needs to watch for Ice Beam (good investment blocks the 2HKO). Empoleon takes both STABs.
Idk why the opinion that sun would suck exists, Drought absolutely destroyed BW UU with just Vulpix available (albeit without rain but still), I have no doubt it'd be effective in DPP OU considering there aren't as many checks to the sun sweepers as there are in BW OU and the sun sweepers lose almost nothing in the generation shift. I mean, Exeggutor + Shiftry destroys almost the entire tier by themselves, almost on the same level that Kingdra + Kabutops would. The only major downside that sun faces is that opposing rain and sand teams can use and hide their Dugtrio until you reveal your Ninetales, allowing them to possibly win the weather war easier than they might in BW OU. The other "major" downside to using sun sweepers is that they're weak to Mamo/Weavile whereas the rain sweepers aren't, but sun teams have distinct advantages that would cause them to be viable, including higher overall immediate firepower (sun boosted Heatran is ridiculous) and a weather starter that can act as an effective revenge killer in its own right (Scarf Tales ties with Scarf Gon while firing off Fire Blasts almost 1.5x as powerful as Gon's Earthquakes).
I was only referring to OU. UU's a different story altogether. I think it would be terrible in OU all the same. The only "boost" Sun gets is the absence of the balloon on Heatran. No Venusaur, no Growth boost, slow Chlorophyll mons except for average Shiftry (who gets pounded by priority moves). Even Victreebel needs to run a Speed nature to not get outsped by Scarfs. Great news for U-turn spammers who can chip away while either switching to their weather starter safely or going to their own Dugtrio. And Solar Beam sucks. Easy for other weathers to take advantage of, unless you use Grass Knot instead.
You can't trap Hippowdon with Dugtrio and physically defensive Politoed is a problem too. No Gothitelle to make it easy.
Sun was always a gimmick in DP with Sunny Day. Powerful and quick and usually never expected, but no real way to abuse it like Waters, who directly benefit from the Water move buff.
Good news is that all the Chlorophylls are below OU, so they can freely tear up UU together.
You can't trap Hippowdon with Dugtrio and physically defensive Politoed is a problem too. No Gothitelle to make it easy.
Sun was always a gimmick in DP with Sunny Day. Powerful and quick and usually never expected, but no real way to abuse it like Waters, who directly benefit from the Water move buff.
Good news is that all the Chlorophylls are below OU, so they can freely tear up UU together.
Rain dominates and probably gets a ban to nerf it in some form as gen 4 has even fewer answers to rain teams than gen 5 did.
Sun is pretty shit as ninetales is still a shitty mon and there aren't the cool stuff that made it viable in gen 5 like chlorosaur and growth mons (since gen 5 changed growth to act as a +2/2 under sun)
hail is still a joke
Sand will probably work pretty much like it did in gen 5 after excadrill got banned pretty much what you take to try to deny the other team their weather.
Sun is pretty shit as ninetales is still a shitty mon and there aren't the cool stuff that made it viable in gen 5 like chlorosaur and growth mons (since gen 5 changed growth to act as a +2/2 under sun)
hail is still a joke
Sand will probably work pretty much like it did in gen 5 after excadrill got banned pretty much what you take to try to deny the other team their weather.
Not bad at all. Here is another one for you guys. What if defog removes all hazards in bw?
Defog will work the same way it does in XY. So will moves like rapid spin become less relevant because of it? Will new threats rise while old threats fade or would things stay mostly the same? You tell me!
Defog will work the same way it does in XY. So will moves like rapid spin become less relevant because of it? Will new threats rise while old threats fade or would things stay mostly the same? You tell me!
Yes pls to Defog in BW.
This is actually a major boon to all sorts of teams: Spinners are pretty bad in this gen because they often fail to find/create free turns, are forced to run from the common Stealth rockers (Heatran, Garchomp and Landorus-T), and are utterly helpless against the premier spinblocker, Jellicent. Defog mitigates this by allowing some other mons like Latis to take over Hazard Removal, making it a lot easier to handle Spikes Stack and whatnot.
This is actually a major boon to all sorts of teams: Spinners are pretty bad in this gen because they often fail to find/create free turns, are forced to run from the common Stealth rockers (Heatran, Garchomp and Landorus-T), and are utterly helpless against the premier spinblocker, Jellicent. Defog mitigates this by allowing some other mons like Latis to take over Hazard Removal, making it a lot easier to handle Spikes Stack and whatnot.
Was hoping for more. Ah well. Next up we have... What if toxic worked properly in RBY?
So currently, toxic damage changes to poison damage after a switch. However, what if it remains as toxic damage? In this case, it would behave with the same mechanics as adv and up. So would this change affect the meta at all or not really? Would there be any pokemon that benefit or is hurt by this? You tell me!
Btw, if anyone has suggestions for future topics, feel free to let me know via pm!
So currently, toxic damage changes to poison damage after a switch. However, what if it remains as toxic damage? In this case, it would behave with the same mechanics as adv and up. So would this change affect the meta at all or not really? Would there be any pokemon that benefit or is hurt by this? You tell me!
Btw, if anyone has suggestions for future topics, feel free to let me know via pm!
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Not gonna pretend to know much about RBY but Toxic seems like an interesting decision to make against Chansey since it will eventually outdamage Softboiled, changing the face of extended battles from PP stall wars into Toxic stall wars. Maybe it wouldn't change that much overall, but Toxic seems like a good filler move on stuff like Egg and Jolteon to muscle past Chansey and other stallish teams.
It would be big. Chansey's a good target and even user. Nailing Alakazam or Lapras prevents them from stalling out as well. Rest would be used more, but the game would adapt to that.
Basically anything that uses filler moves would be having Toxic. There's no reason not to use it. Not enough Poison types to absorb it. Only Vaporeon cam use Haze. And Rest is not as good as Recover.
Basically anything that uses filler moves would be having Toxic. There's no reason not to use it. Not enough Poison types to absorb it. Only Vaporeon cam use Haze. And Rest is not as good as Recover.
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Snorlax with rest will increase in usage because his capability of being one, if not the best, status absorber. Chansey wil be an excelent user of toxic, since now didnt rely on IB+freeze vs other Chansey. These are the two main changes that come to mind, maybe other things could work or increase their usage, such as Rhydon with toxic to force Exeggutor resting or Vistreebel/Venusaur acting as a pseudo-aborber.