All Gens The "What if" thread - Topic #66 : Physical-Special split in ADV

MANNAT

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Weavile becomes even better than it used to be and knock offs from clef hurt a little bit more as well as machamp not having to rely on payback for ghost types and actually being able to use a max speed custap set without getting burnt by rotoms rigth away are the main things that i can think of.
 
Didn't think of Machamp before. That also reminded me of Donphan. Now rocks aren't required to do high damage on the switch. Then the item removal, doing two jobs at once. Better than Assurance.
 

Typhlito

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Sorry for the delay. This round was supposed to also mark the start for something special but it's delayed so the thread must go on. So for the next topic, what if spikes had the same properties as stealth rock in bw?



So this could use a bit of explaining. Best way is to explain how stealth rocks work. Its a rock type move that only needs one layer on the field to work properly. It also damages differently depending on their type. So pokemon weak to rock types take more from stealth rock compared to pokemon that resists them. So what if spikes does the same thing? You can only use one layer and its damage output depends on whether the pokemon switching in is weak, resistant, neutral or immune to ground types. Its damage output is the same as stealth rock as far as these scenarios go. So will new threats rise from this change while old ones fade or will this not change much? You tell me!
 
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first thing to ask does this changed spikes stack with SR?

regardless Magcargo Magnezone and Heatran would hate it though.
 

Typhlito

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first thing to ask does this changed spikes stack with SR?

regardless Magcargo Magnezone and Heatran would hate it though.
Yes it stacks. So if a pokemon is weak to both ground and rock, they are screwed. So how would it change the metagame?
 
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Merritt

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Poor Fire Types.

Something gimmicky with an extra use might be Gravity, since that means ground immunities will take the spikes damage. Could be funny for Charizard and Rotom-Heat since they'll lose 75% of their HP on switching in with both hazards up, although probably not particularly useful, especially in OU. It does cause Skarmory to lose 25% of its HP on the switch though.

The three biggest things this impacts negatively are probably Jirachi, Tyranitar, and Heatran. Each of them losing at least 25% of their HP every time they switch in isn't a good thing for their survival, it'll probably force Jirachi into running Wish more often in order to counter Latios over the course of a match. Latios also seems better for this, since most Steel types bar Ferrothorn and Skarmory are fairly heavily impacted by this. Ferrothorn and Skarmory also get access to these buffed spikes, and Heatran's new issues with the hazard (along with basically every fire type) mean they'll probably get more usage.

Hazard removal seems even more important, and with that more spinblocking. Of course Reuni and Zam don't care about Spikes in the first place, so not much changing there. I wouldn't be surprised if this negatively impacted sun's viability since Ninetales is the most vulnerable to hazards of the weather setters now.

Oh and Breloom resists both SR and Spikes, being one of the only grounded Pokemon to take only 12.5% if both hazards are up, which could positively impact its usage, although what looks to me like a Latios improvement might also hurt.

In terms of single hazard stacking SR will probably still be more popular overall since it hits everything, but Spikes helps dragon spam in particular as well as teams that have issues with Magnezone trapping, since you really need one good double switch to make it dead (or nearly there). Magnezone as a whole will probably have some issues - while it can trap Skarmory and Ferrothorn well who are probably the best steel types with this, other steels will be easier to wear down which reduces the need for Magnezone who's also crippled by spikes. It'd certainly be interesting at least!
 

Typhlito

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Not bad. Here's the next topic. What if superpower existed in RBY?



So fighting types have suffered in rby due to them lacking a decent fighting stab. Their best option for a fighting attack is submission which is fairly weak and inaccurate not to mention it deals recoil damage. But what if that was not their only option? In this situation, any pokemon that ever learned the move gets it in this. So would new threats rise while old threats fall or will not really change? You tell me!
 

xJoelituh

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First thing that comes to mind is this:
Machamp Submission vs. Tauros: 321-378 (90.9 - 107%) -- 43.6% chance to OHKO
Machamp Submission vs. Snorlax: 405-476 (77.4 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Machamp Submission vs. Chansey: 852-1002 (121.1 - 142.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Machamp Submission vs. Snorlax: 405-476 (77.4 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Machamp Submission vs. Jynx: 274-322 (82.2 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Machamp Submission vs. Lapras: 362-426 (78.1 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


I find this pretty good late game cleaner with only a few counters, like Eggs, Moltres, Dnite, Starmie and Grass types in general. If this was a real thing I think Machamp would be a threat in OU that everyone would need to have in mind when building. Because of this monster, Exeggutor and Starmie would be more spammed, and a lot of times when this comes in, you would probably need to sacrifice something? 3/4 of the Big 4 Members are scared of this and Tauros being the only one that is faster of those 3. More Reflect-mons would be used because of the fear of SuperPower

TL;DR A few counters, Big 4 almost destroyed, Reflect more spammed. Literally Superpower.
 

Bughouse

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Machamp would be damn threatening. Constantly force out Normals on predicted double switches, Body Slam all the Psychic switchins, and spread paralysis. It still has Earthquake for Gengar too.

Definitely would become an actual OU threat. Maybe on the low end of B rank? It sounds better than most of C to me. It even has Rock Slide over Earthquake if you want to go after Zapdos and Dnite - it's a 3hko, not bad after paralyzing them.
 
So to keep track we would get Nidoqueen, Nidoking, Pinsir, Machamp, Golem, Kingler, Hitmonlee, Rhydon, Flareon, Kabutops, Snorlax, Dragonite. Ignoring the potential rise of Machamp (or even Hitmonlee - Hitmonlee already has the best fighting move in RBY, and Superpower is way better and can score easy KOs with a little chip damage), this is a good move choice on some of the already-OUers. That's a no-brainer fourth move on Rhydon (making him indisputably OU again) and could be tempting on Golem (though I'm not sure what he'd drop - he still likes paralysis-on-the-switch chances with Body Slam against Eggy and Starmie). Snorlax would love it for the dittos and to punish Tauros and Chansey (although Reflect Chansey, even though it takes huge damage from it, can easily stall out the PP). EDITED TO ADD since I just calculated: However, even against Reflect Chansey, Snorlax's Superpower + Self Destruct is a very good chance to KO. So if Reflect Chansey is giving your team trouble, SP+SD Snorlax is a great answer.
 
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Hmm yeah, I think GG's got the right of it in focussing on how existing OUs benefit. Something like Machamp imo would still only be a niche threat, as Psychic weakness is still a massive obstacle and its bulk is pretty average. Snorlax getting SP would be absolutely massive news because the ditto is such a big deal, as well as mauling Chansey regardless of para. Rhydon also benefits enormously since it's just far more threatening to Chansey- with a little chip damage it can take Chansey down even if it's not paralysed. Another play I remember seeing the last time I used Don was for a para'd but otherwise healthy Chansey to stay in and IB and just trust that it could heal up at a later time- that goes completely out the window with Superpower being thrown around.

Going off GG's list, I can't see any of the more uncommon mons jumping significantly in value besides Champ and Lee. I guess the most likely candidates would be Pinsir and the Nidos, as Pinsir already tends to use Fighting coverage if it's ever seen in OU, while Nidos are just interesting. They're still probably really shit, but Superpower sorta addresses one of their significant flaws (lack of raw power) by targeting the normal types that would otherwise expose this weakness. But their typing is still terrible so it's probably not enough. Dragonite and the other SDers don't need it imo, while Flareon sucks regardless
 

Typhlito

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Alright its time for the next topic. What if there were no NYPC event moves in GSC?



So in GSC, the release of NYPC event attacks helped made several big players in gsc quite threatening. However, what if these event moves were never released? Would pokemon who made use of these moves still be viable without them or will they fall into obscurity? Will new pokemon rise in response to no longer having to worry about these moves? Will nothing really change? You tell me!
 
lax becomes slightly less threatening without the threat of lovely kiss.

the growtheons are no longer a thing.

nidos loose the utility of LK but now have a moveslot open for more coverage.

i can't remember all of the good NYPC moves but these stand out in my head.
 
GSC is saved from Satan, and only includes Pokemon programmed into the actual game that its own official games (Stadium 2) recognize as legitimate. I dream of such a day.
 

Mr.E

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Nidos don't gain a moveslot, they disappear from the metagame. Incidentally, the only other interesting move you rarely actually see on them is Morning Sun/Moonlight, which is also NYPC like Lovely Kiss. Growtheons not being a thing also basically remove everything except Umbreon from the metagame, which usually doesn't utilize it anyway.

Losing Nido: Good mixed attacker and sleep carrier, but you can usually split the duties up. Defensive cores are marginally stronger without the threat since Raikou + Skarm is somewhat more vulnerable to them than other Grounds, namely Nido being immune to Toxic like Steelix but having more direct offensive presence ala Rhydon/Marowak, with type coverage substituting for raw power.

Losing Vaporeon: AA/Growth/Rest Vap is arguably the most reliable self-contained Snorlax counter, and a unique threat in its own right as the only notable Special boosting sweeper. Snorlax gets slightly stronger and my stall team is virtually unbeatable because Vaporeon is basically the only thing that scares it. BP is uncommon but it's a team build I kinda like. ;( Vaporeon gives way to Suicune defensively but its offensive niche can't be replicated.

Espeon isn't a thing at all anymore, Jolteon can still Agilipass to Marowak or Snorlax or whatever but it's easier to see that coming and put a stop to it than Growth (though Roar Raikou always stops Jolteon cold regardless). Snorlax hardly cares about losing LK, honestly I never cared much for it anyway. It's at its best in the mirror, but Sleep Talk is better there and LK doesn't help much to beat past its defensive stops because without the coverage attack you do crap damage (or none) to any Normal resist. It only kinda works on Drumlax, because Curse is too slow to set up on stuff like Skarm or Umbreon or even another +1 Curselax you switched into, but usually you'll just wish you had EQ or Fire Blast instead. But that's just, like, my opinion, man.

I can't imagine the metagame overall changes a whole lot. GSC isn't that centralized other than Lax and Zapdos/Raikou, which were already the top three mons by a significant margin before NYPC event moves were a thing. Nidoking out helps Raikou a little more than Zapdos, since Zapdos doesn't fear switching into a 35% Ice Beam on a misprediction quite like Raikou does switching into a 65% Earthquake, but it doesn't change Zapdos still being better overall and Raikou being Zapdos-lite that counters Zapdos 1v1. Snorlax can't exactly get any stronger and AA Vap going MIA just means slightly more of everything else generally used to stall or beat it.
 

Typhlito

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Cool. Here's the next topic. What if the physical and special types were swapped in adv?



So most people who have played old gens is aware that certain types are either physical or special. However, what if this was flipped the other way? That would mean that fire, grass, water, electric, ice, dark, psychic, and dragon would become physical while flying, normal, ghost, bug, fighting, steel, rock, and ground are special. So how would this change how adv is played? Would new threats rise while old threats fall or will little change? You tell me!
 

Merritt

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Gengar probably enjoys this, getting STAB special attacks is kinda nice. It also gets an even stronger explosion, although it might have more issues with Blissey. Meanwhile Swampert trades his stronger Earthquake for a stronger Surf, although he does get physical Ice Beam.

Most pseudo-legendaries adore this overall. Dragonite and Salamence get physical STAB that's not hidden power, and can boost up with Dragon Dance. Adding on to the fun Fire Blast is physical too, meaning that after a boost it'll be pretty hard to actually stop them. Tyranitar meanwhile trades in its Rock Slide for Crunch physically, although Crunch now suffers from lowering the opposite defensive stat (although Shadow Ball has a better secondary effect probably), and also has a now-physical movepool that's pretty good. Metagross doesn't like this nearly as much though, as it trades in its Meteor Mash for the weaker (but accurate at least) psychic, loses its nuclear Explosion, and overall just has a very shallow now-physical movepool aside from Hidden Power of only 5 moves. One of those is Confusion, for reference. Losing EQ and all its other moves hurts.

Oh yeah EQ is special, making it much less useful on so many things. The vast majority of Pokemon that learn it have higher physical attack, although I suppose it does slightly help out the much worse Latis and the very nerfed Kyogre up in Ubers. Speaking of Ubers, Groudon's now got a physical Fire Blast and Thunder(bolt) to make up for a worse EQ, as well as enjoying the benefits of all its weaknesses being physical and having to get through the much more impressive 140 defense as opposed to 90 special defense. Ho-oh also enjoys getting physical Sacred Fire, and Rock being special means it has a much better chance to take those hits.

Back down in OU, Gyarados seems more threatening. Dragon Dance backed up by physical BoltBeam and Hydro Pump is a much better prospect than HP Flying / EQ. With water becoming physical Azumarill might maybe be able to become relevant, although the odds of it aren't great, just better than the zero they are.

A lot of things end up losing out on a strong STAB and instead have their random previously-special coverage moves buffed. Stuff like Starmie I have no clue what the plan is, since all its now-special moves except for hidden power are normal-type attacks. Spin is nice but not so good people are going to put up with that. Flareon gets physical fire moves and sneasel gets physical ice and dark type moves though so it's all worth it.
 
Hmm this is a weird one. A ton of things become a lot worse, potentially even useless, snorlax, suicune, dugtrio, aerodactyl, heracross, starmie, milotic, porygon2, regice and all the electric types. Maybe zapdos could still work since it has ok attack but probably wouldn't be worth using. Things like salamence, gyarados and gengar get a nice offensive buff due to receiving better STABs, although gengar definitely suffers from physical pursuit. It's a mixed bag for a lot of things. metagross definitely gets worse but physical pursuit is nice and it would steal competition from tyranitar as it isn't weak to fighting. Flygon flips its stabs it loses out though since outrage is pretty bad in adv and dragon claw doesn't really make up for the loss in EQ, probably wouldn't be OU. Jirachi and Celebi trade their nice special movepools to nice physical ones. Jirachi loses CM but would still stay in the game thanks to that great typing. Celebi can now better abuse swords dance. Furthermore the loss of dugtrio helps both of them immensely. On a similar note, skarmory becomes a lot better with magneton out of the picture. Finally tyranitar probably gets knocked down a peg but having physical pursuit will be nice for it. The fighting weakness prevents it from being very effective at taking out gengar but it can still put in work chunking choice locked attackers. Overall this change is way too big to really predict at all what the metagame would look like.
 

Typhlito

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Was hoping for a bit more but regardless that was good. Next up we have... what if gems existed in dpp?



So these gems will follow their effect from bw which is to give a 50% one time boost to a move that is the same type as the gem being held. This was not the most common item in bw but perhaps having the item in a different gen would change that in some way. Would new threats rise with the help of gems or will things stay mostly unchanged? Or maybe current threats become more dangerous depending on their sets. I don't know. You tell me!
 

Crestfall

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I personally think they'd remain as niche in DPP OU as they are in BW. Generally you don't see many gems apart from Fighting gem on breloom (usually focus punch), terrakion, keldeo (generally CM fight gem iirc), Water gem on toed, Dragon gem on Chompers w/ Draco Meteor or SD outrage.

Just quickly off the top of my head maybe something like SD infernape could work w/ a fight gem. Boost on a switch, if it's not faster destroy it with +2 coverage and if it is faster +2 mach punch w/ fight gem could really dent almost anything and with prior damage open up a sweep. Not too useful against scarf gar/rotom ofc. I'm sure they'd be used but not something common is my guess.
 
Was hoping for ADV too, because DPP is much less substantial with the stones.

In DPP, the biggest use I could think of was boosting Explosion on a bluff set/tactic. Imagine being able to get a full damage one with Metagross or Snorlax after fooling them you're choiced.

Bluffing would probably be the most used tactic if the gems are used at all. The initial hit is stronger than LO, so it might be able to get a KO somewhere that wasn't possible before without being locked.
 

Typhlito

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Ehh... Alright. Next up is... What if rotom retained its ghost/electric typing for all its forms?



In gen 4, every form originally retained its ghost/electric typing making them great options as a spin blocker. Once gen 5 came around though, these forms lost their ghost typings in exchange for a type that compliments their form. This change was a positive change for some forms while it is a negative change for others. But what if this never happened? How would this change effect the meta though? Would there be a change or will things stay mostly the same? You tell me!
 
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Finchinator

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This would mainly impact Rotom-W, seeing as it's the most common Rotom form used in the tier (Rotom-C is viable, but very rarely seen).

Rotom-W is used as a pivot w/ a specially defensive set and the moves Will-O-Wisp, Hydro Pump, Pain Split, and Volt Switch most of the time. With it shedding the water type in return for the ghost type, spikes would be even more common (if that's even possible lmao) given that there would be another solid spinblocker alongside Jellicent (and Gengar, but it's not a very durable blocker) in the tier. I'd also theorize that Pursuit (mainly Scarf Tar) would raise in popularity to a similar extent to it did in DPP seeing as it's a quick way to rid the opponent's team of Rotom forms. Finally, offensive water types (Politoed and Starmie, specifically, but perhaps choiced Keldeo as well) would raise even more in popularity, bolstering the viability of offensive rain seeing that a common type resist is now out of the equation for sand and weatherless teams to take advantage of.
 
Ehh... Alright. Next up is... What if rotom retained its ghost/electric typing for all its forms?



In gen 4, every form originally retained its ghost/electric typing making them great options as a spin blocker. Once gen 5 came around though, these forms lost their ghost typings in exchange for a type that compliments their form. This change was a positive change for some forms while it is a negative change for others. But what if this never happened? How would this change effect the meta though? Would there be a change or will things stay mostly the same? You tell me!
You know how Cosplay Pikachu turned out in Gen 6? yeah, just like that but with a spinblocker perk.
 

Typhlito

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Expected more from that one but it's ok. How about this one? What if the jellicent line existed in rby?



So currently, the only ghost type that is available in rby is gengar. Sure it's a pretty decent pokemon due to it being able to wall normal attacks but it's low defense and poison typing still makes it susceptible to psychics and normals with earthquake. But what if gengar was not your only ghost type? So in this scenario, jellicent will only possess moves that are available in rby. However it does not have access to its breeder moves. Also we will use its special def stat (105) as its special stat. So how would jellicent fair in rby? Would it's presence make a big difference or not really? You tell me!
 

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