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All Gens The "What if" thread - Topic #59 : Rotom in ADV

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Typhlito, Jun 19, 2015.

  1. Mirabel_

    Mirabel_

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    Rocks being better means Sandslash, which already soft-counters them, is more relevant, and that Jolt and especially zap would be less popular. Dugtrio is too frail to deal with anything that might fire back with Stone Edge, and doesn't outspeed aero anyway.

    Aerodactyl [Stone Edge] vs. Sandslash on a critical hit: 102-120 (28.8 - 33.9%) -- 1% chance to 3HKO
    Sandslash [Stone Edge] vs. Aerodactyl on a critical hit: 364-428 (100.2 - 117.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Aerodactyl [Stone Edge] vs. Dugtrio on a critical hit: 165-194 (60.4 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    Dugtrio [Stone Edge] vs. Aerodactyl on a critical hit: 316-372 (87 - 102.4%) -- 17.9% chance to OHKO

    Should be noted that Golem and especially Rhydon (plus Omastar, Marowak, and Muk) have a low enough speed that 8x crit is still not guaranteed.

    For me the big hard question is the viability of Kabutops, Gyarados, and Dragonite, which are probably the biggest winners after Aerodactyl. Pretty confident that Onix, Hitmonlee, Omastar, Muk would not get into OU over this, and Tauros becomes more interesting but probably not much better per se. I can sort of see Ubers getting turned on its head, at least in terms of moveset design. Aero and Tauros both get it, but so do Mew and Mewtwo.
  2. Enigami

    Enigami

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    Pinsir Stone Edge vs. Zapdos on a critical hit: 364-428 (95 - 111.7%) -- 69.2% chance to OHKO
    Pinsir Stone Edge vs. Gengar on a critical hit: 226-266 (69.9 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Pinsir would absolutely love having crit Stone Edge to spam especially when it helps Pinsir with two of its biggest obstacles in OU. Having to rely on Swords Dance Submission to deal with now mandatory Goldon and face all the new Stone Edge spam hurts though.

    Nidoking Stone Edge vs. Starmie on a critical hit: 147-173 (45.5 - 53.5%) -- 38.3% chance to 2HKO
    Nidoking Stone Edge vs. Chansey on a critical hit: 363-427 (51.6 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    Nidoking Stone Edge vs. Aerodactyl on a critical hit: 345-406 (95 - 111.8%) -- 71.8% chance to OHKO
    Nidoking Stone Edge vs. Lapras on a critical hit: 308-362 (66.5 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    Nidoking Stone Edge vs. Cloyster on a critical hit: 173-204 (57 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Nidoking is no longer walled without Paralysis support, has Surf for the now mandatory Goldon and provides a secondary Stone Edge switch in. Additionally, its speed and ability to 2HKO Lapras and Cloyster with Stone Edge means it isn't as vulnerable to teams with them. One downside though besides a not having a guaranteed OHKO on Aerodactyl is that it can only take 3 Stone Edges as opposed to Sandslash/Goldon's 4.
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  3. Crystal_

    Crystal_
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    If Stone Edge existed in RBY I doubt anything other than Rhydon/Golem/Onix would get it unless it was a TM. For the sake of making this discussion relevant though, I will assume the new gen compatibility applies.

    I don't think Aero would be broken enough to be banned (we're also more ban happy now that we were back then). It has strong checks on Rhydon and Golem and you won't want to give them many openings. Other than that, it's a frailer but even more scary version of Tauros so I'd say it would become nearly a staple, although not quite on the level of Tauros (who is still a good matchup vs Golem/Rhydon/Aero). It should be noted that Rhydon will only crit with SE around 60% of the times and Golem around 70% of the times (less factoring in accuracy).

    Tauros would just drop EQ for SE.

    I definitely would see Alakazam, Zapdos and Jolteon droping in usage. Snorlax would go down a bit and would start using Blizzard or Surf over Earthquake or Hyperbeam. Exeggutor would become even more of a staple than it currently is, Golem/Rhydon would be seen more often than not, and Slowbro would go up as well. Starmie maybe too.

    Sandslash becomes interesting as a decent check to the three rocks in one, but not more than that since it still has trouble with its usual checks. You could make a case for Machamp and Hitmonlee, who may go up to the level of Kingler-esque gimmicky stuff. I see Gyarados becoming a bit more threatening and Dragonite has an alternative to the wrap set. Speaking of wrap, its usage would probably drop a bit. Kabutops also becomes interesting with a non-SD set. A few random UU mons might become a bit more usable following the sped up of the metagame and the likely tendency of dropping a recover user or Snorlax for a rock type. Apart from the ones already mentioned Nidoking comes to mind due to being able to use Stone Edge but you could also make a case for bulky stuff like Clefable or Poliwrath.

    Reflect Chansey and tanklax would probably become extint and Nails would be in absolute ruins.
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  4. Typhlito

    Typhlito One Active Dawg
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    Excellent discussion! I'd be quite interested to try such a meta just to see how games would turn out.

    Anyway, heres our next topic. What if Focus Punch existed in GSC?

    [​IMG]

    GSC has always been a slower paced meta where almost everything is bulkier compared to any other gen. However, machamp, a fighting pokemon with a great stab is capable of demolishing certain teams if not careful due to the good number of pokemon weak to fighting moves in general. But what if more pokemon had access to a strong fighting type move? So like always, any pokemon who received this move regardless of how it got it will have access to it in this scenario. So would this move make a huge difference or would it not change the meta very much? Who would use it most effectively? You tell me!
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2017
  5. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf meh
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    +6 Snorlax Focus Punch vs. +6 Skarmory: 108-128 (32.4 - 38.4%)
    Snorlax Focus Punch vs. Cloyster: 151-178 (49.8 - 58.7%)
    +1 Snorlax Focus Punch vs. Cloyster: 226-266 (74.5 - 87.7%)
    Snorlax Focus Punch vs. Umbreon: 217-256 (55.2 - 65.1%)
    +1 Snorlax Focus Punch vs. Umbreon: 325-382 (82.6 - 97.2%)

    This is very amusing if focus punch fucks with phazing

    Sub/Curse/Focus Punch/Shadow Ball snorlax lfgi
  6. OrangeGuru

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    I think Focus Punch would have a pretty big effect on the GSC meta. With how defensive/stall-y it currently is (and always has been), switches are an accepted part of the game. However, Focus Punch would open up holes and allow offense to be a more prominent archetype. The best users would probably be Snorlax (as mentioned above, but it would suffer from 4MSS), Ttar (who wouldn't have to hope for Dpunch to land), Machamp, Marowak, and Heracross (all offensive mons seen now who would love the power increase and Hera especially for gaining some STAB that isn't HP).

    But I'm going to throw an interesting name: Ursaring. It's currently BL, but would be hitting off of 130 base Attack (tied for the most with Machamp, tho Machamp would have STAB). After 1 curse boost, it would have an 82.1% chance to OHKO Snorlax. I don't know exactly, but I think it would help wallbreaking and make offense more fun.
    (Also, pure speculation but I think Feraligatr would be cool in UU with Focus Punch, but I'm not a Gen 2 UU expert at all lol)
  7. jvl101993

    jvl101993

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    Not sure how relevant this is to the discussion, but I'm assuming Focus Punch would work like it did in ADV-BW, where it can't be called via Sleep Talk?
  8. Mr.E

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    Focus Punch would certainly do a lot to help Heracross get past its crippling weakness to Skarmory. It's certainly better than lame Seismic Toss. I'm not sure how much of a usage boost Hera gets considering it still gets cockblocked by Zapdos and Focus Punch... I dunno, is it a good thing in GSC for Sleep Talk to not select FP? 50% shot at Megahorn or Rest is pretty interesting, although lack of Earthquake now gets you walled by ghosts (especially Gengar) and Nidoking, which ST EQ Hera is otherwise a great counter (except the rare Fire Blast). Eh, I imagine Hera remains uncommon, albeit marginally scarier when it is used depending on team matchup.

    More importantly, Gengar. Ttar too but FP is less important for it I would say, as being able to cold swing at Snorlax and other Ttar is kinda nice. Lax especially is liable to attack into you anyway if you switch Ttar into it, and vice-versa Lax doesn't normally switch in. Gengar would love to slam Lax and Ttar on the switch. I wouldn't say it's a substantial change though, since Dynamicpunch can be used in TTar's face and Lax often can't touch Gengar anyway. At best it encourages Lax to throw FB/Thunder PP at Gengar which can be baited, because otherwise EQ maims Gengar anyway and most other sets (Toxic, mono, etc.) are just hard walled and fishing for a FP crit is an incremental upgrade over fishing for Ice Punch freeze. ;/ Machamp can't afford to use it over Cross Chop considering the best way of tackling it is often just to hit it in the face and get out with a 1-1 trade, if you don't have a Reflect/Psychic Starmie or the proper counter to its moveset, and it absolutely doesn't have a spare moveslot for both. Nobody else cares.

    Since I missed a whole less-than-a-week's discussion on it, RBY Aero with Stone Edge would be pretty neat but I err on the side of Uglemi. Tauros doesn't get 2HKOed by everything, can randomly paralyze shit and at worst only dips down to 90% accuracy when it must. I don't think it'd be broken, "only" on the level of Tauros at best, where everyone uses it and tacitly acknowledges it's great but isn't breaking the metagame like Mewtwo. ... Wait, Muk learns Stone Edge? effin alola
    thank god that shit is terrible anyway
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  9. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Id imagine fp would work like any other -ve priority in gsc (iirc -1 is the lowest of any move). Best analogy would be an over-2x damage vital throw that fails when damage is taken (so itd work when sleep talked but not if it didnt go last).
  10. Typhlito

    Typhlito One Active Dawg
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    Good discussion there. I agree with jorgen on how it might work so curse + focus punch sounds like a great option to hit phazers hard.

    Anyway, heres our next topic. What if Shed Shell existed in ADV?

    [​IMG]

    The use of trappers in adv has always plagued the use of certain team builds due to their ability to pick apart anything that prevents a team from potentially sweeping. Some love them while others can't stand them. However, what if there was an item that allowed you to bypass this problem? What pokemon are likely to run shed shell? How does it affect the metagame and how may teams adapt to the change? Are there any new threats that appear thanks to this item? You tell me!
  11. cookie

    cookie Firebot Development Lad
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    first thought is that celebi fucking loves this, but then it makes it even more vulnerable to sandstream (residual recovery is a big deal for something that forces switches so much) so tyranitar will become even better (already enjoying shed shell somewhat)
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  12. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan

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    I can see skarm using this on more offensive spikes stack teams. On a bulky team you probably still want lefties because skarm loses a lot of its defensive value without them, but if you just want it for the spikes, shed shell seems like it would be a decent option. Some other things I can see using it are Tyranitar and maybe metagross as well. Ironically enough magneton itself would be a decent user, not being trapped by dugtrio is pretty good for it and it can afford to drop lefties. Not sure how much celebi would use it though, not having leftovers really sucks for it and it has a few other tools at its disposal to get around the duggy trap.
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  13. Bughouse

    Bughouse Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
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    Skarm and Magneton are the two that immediately jump out to me as beneficiaires, but also Blissey and Houndoom.

    Dugtrio and Magneton both would take a pretty big hit in viability since both are pretty mediocre to bad mons if they don't accomplish their goal. Like, Dugtrio not infrequently faces teams where 3 mons are immune and 2 beat it anyway... if it can't beat that 6th mon, you're just playing down 5-6 at the slight benefit of them not having lefties on that mon. Magneton is at least somewhat better.
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  14. Typhlito

    Typhlito One Active Dawg
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    Alright. Heres our next topic. What if Talonflame existed in DPP?

    [​IMG]

    So in this scenario, we are allowing talonflame to exist in DPP. As for its ability, since its pre-sun/moon, we could say that it retains its un-nerfed gale wings ability. So gale wings would allow it to have priority flying type moves like roost and brave bird regardless of its current hp. So how would this pokemon change up the metagame? Would certain threats rise in popularity while others fall into obscurity? How would the metagame adjust to it? You tell me!

    You could also discuss on how its pre-evolution forms would do in LC and NU/UU.
  15. Reigako

    Reigako

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    First thought about this mon is probably how well it handles most commonly used leads right now such as Machamp, Azelf, Metagross and non-SE Hippowdon, being faster than every lead in the metagame barring Aerodactyl, meaning it will have an easy time taunting everything and pivoting after with U-turn.
    Talon can also invalidate a lot of threatening physical attackers with his typing and extremly fast WoW (in fact the fastest in the metagame), letting him able to check offensive behemots such as Metagross, Scizor, Non-TPunch Infernape and Jirachi, and even Lucario !

    All and all this looks pretty cool, but our favorite bird has other tricks up on his sleeve with its powerful dual STAB and access to Swords Dance, making it a really threating force itself.
    For example, itemless +2 Brave Bird OHKOes Flygon and Dragonite without SR, making Talon one of the strongest priority users right there.
    Now you may ask "why using itemless Talon with Brave Bird ?" Because its not actually itemless. Since Heatran and Tyranitar are so annoying to deal with our cute bird, i thought about using the real GOAT : Natural Gift. Since it only has 80 BP in DPP, its not as powerful as it is right now, but it can still be useful since it does heavy damage to Tran and Ttar :

    +2 252 Atk Talonflame Natural Gift (Ground) (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shuca Berry Heatran: 242-286 (74.9 - 88.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    +2 252 Atk Talonflame Natural Gift (Ground) (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 236-278 (69.2 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    +2 252 Atk Talonflame Natural Gift (Fighting) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 472-556 (117.1 - 137.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    With a bit of prior damage or some lucky rolls, that means you can actually lure those two which can let Talon to a sweep considering its damage output at +2. The choice between NG Ground or Fighting depends on your preference, but since most Tran are running Shuca and considering that NG Fighting does the same damage as NG Ground - Shuca while having the OHKO on all non-Chople variants of Ttar, i personally prefer the latter.

    Talonflame can also pull off a very threatening Choice Band set, dealing absurd amounts of damage with his two STABs alone, while having access to U-turn to pivot out, while actually being able to 2HKO 0 HP Ttar with it, weakening it quite easily.
    Here's some calcs vs most prominent targets in DPP :

    Show Hide
    252 Atk Choice Band Gale Wings Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Flygon: 256-303 (85 - 100.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 Atk Choice Band Gale Wings Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 286-337 (101.7 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Choice Band Gale Wings Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-A: 101-119 (41.9 - 49.3%) -- 85.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth
    252 Atk Choice Band Gale Wings Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 259-306 (78.2 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 Atk Choice Band Gale Wings Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl: 152-179 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Choice Band Gale Wings Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Starmie: 243-286 (75.2 - 88.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 Atk Choice Band Gale Wings Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingdra: 222-262 (76.2 - 90%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 Atk Choice Band Gale Wings Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 222-262 (68.7 - 81.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 Atk Choice Band Gale Wings Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 141-166 (34.9 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 246-289 (76.6 - 90%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 342-404 (94.2 - 111.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 156 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 237-280 (68.1 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame U-turn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 154-182 (45 - 53.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


    Those calcs looks really damn ridiculous arent they.
    With this set, Talonflame can be used both as a revenge killer and a win condition, even though it is going to have problems dealing with stall considering Talon isnt able to 2HKO fat walls such as Hippowdon or Suicune.

    This is why Talon can also use a phys def stallbreaker set, which is able to reliably check a ton of threats like those i listed before. With WoW, Taunt or Bulk Up and recovery in Roost, Talon can slice its way through almost any stall and can still be really useful vs offense.

    However, we shouldn't forget how weak to SR Talon is. If Talon was ever playable in DPP i think this is probably one of the best way to handle it, and if you add sandstorm and recoil damage from both of Talon's primary attacks, the brave bird is going to get worn down really fast. Given that some rockers scare it quite hard (eg Tyranitar, Aerodactyl, Heatran), it shouldnt be too hard to get rocks up and keep them via offensive pressure on the potential RS Starmie (given his synergy with Talon its probably going to be his teammate #1).

    Overall, if Talon was in DPP, it would definitely be a very powerful threat to be reckoned with, and the metagame would probably shift given how strong the Bird is.

    Here's two teams i've fastly built around it and i gotta say they look awesome :
    https://pastebin.com/4zqUAHiu
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2017
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  16. Typhlito

    Typhlito One Active Dawg
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    Most of the discussion happened on discord and reigako did a good job summarizing it all so on to the next one.

    What if Hail provided a defense boost to ice types in BW?

    [​IMG]

    So one of the biggest problems with hail besides hazards is the fact that ice type pokemon are so weak to many physical types such as fighting, steel, and rock. But what if hail is able to remedy this problem to an extent? So in this scenario, ice types would receive a defense boost similar to the sp defense boost rock types get in sand. Would such an effect make a difference for hail? Would new threats rise while old threats fade away because of this? You tell me!
  17. Lonely Zard

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    I guess Walrein would be really nice to use, especially its toxic stall set, since it'd be able to mantain a substitute on pokémons like defensive Landorus-t and bulky TTar and then start to wear down the opposing team more consistently.
    Abomasnow itself would benefit greatly from this, surviving Breloom's mach punch and Scizor's bullet punch without the need of a defense investment / focus sash is huge. Also avoiding the 2hko from Starmie's Psyshock would make it an almost flawless Analytic Mie counter. Overall, that defense boost may actually warrant Aboma a jump in usage.
    However, I believe Kyurem would be the one who would benefit the most from this. The defense boost would valorize its immense natural bulk, cancelling its physical-side weaknesses and turning it into an even scarier wallbreaker than it is now, managing to shake off attacks like the ones that Aboma survives plus things like an Outrage coming from Garchomp. I guess Hailstorm + LOKyuB would be the perfect recipe for an early game nightmare. SubRoost sets would also get better obviously, finding an easier time to Substitute against weak physical attacks. SR weakness would hold back the newfound tanking capabilities of these mons tho.
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  18. Bughouse

    Bughouse Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
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    Realistically, you're still not super likely to run 2 ice types on the same team, so the only real winner is abomasnow, which was already useful in its niche as an amazing stop to any water type not named Keldeo (or like HP Fire Starmie).

    But now, Abomasnow, can actually tank a Secret Sword since it hits on the Phys side. It can also tank a BP from Scizor and HP Fire it. It can switch in on Outrages from Garchomp Mence or Dnite way more easily.

    Basically, Abomasnow's defensive value to a team goes up substantially and doesn't have to be played quite so cautiously around SR, since it doesn't need to have as much health to still check physical dragons. Its matchup against most waters is unchanged, but now it can also sort of check non-Specs Keldeo.
  19. Typhlito

    Typhlito One Active Dawg
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    Ok I got a good one for you today. I will finally introduce the first oras topic in this thread! So here it is.

    What if mega stones were removable?

    Webp.net-resizeimage.png

    So normally mega stones could not be removed no matter what you did. But what if you could get rid of them? So in this scenario, any moves (knock off, trick, etc) that affect items will also affect mega stones. Also, once the item is removed, the mega Mon would revert to it's normal form. So how would this change the meta game if at all? Would new threats rise while old threats fall? You tell me!
    Last edited: May 11, 2017
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  20. HC

    HC

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    Weavile now becomes even more infuriating to face. While most offensive teams could just stick a Mega Siczor on to deal with it, the bulk lost by losing its mega stone is so noticeable. Mega Slowbro now cannot LO stall it either, due to the ridiculous amount of bulk it loses and taking a 90BP Knock Off to begin with. Mega Venusaur becomes weak to Icicle Crash after losing its Mega Stone so cannot stall out Weavile's hits either.
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  21. Firebird101

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    Weavile would be broken since there would be no drawbacks at all to spam Knock Off at all early-and mid-game. Most pokemon who like to spam Knock Off would get significantly more difficult to deal with such as Bisharp and Mew and Knock Off would probably be a stable on more mons such as Chansey and Thundurus and Knock Off would undisputedly win the "best move" competition. As well as rise of dark-resists with sets that aren't depending on their items though those are few and are much less effective than standard sets but Knock Off absorber would be crucial on most teams and since mega's can't do that anymore I think more game-changing would be the reduced need to use mega stones as they would suddenly become more high-risk mons to use as most of them depend on the mega stones to be any good. Choice Scarf Weavile could even be a thing just to act as a emergency check for Mega Lopunny and Zard X and Mega Sableye would have avoided the banhammer since Mew laughs at it now.
    Last edited: May 13, 2017
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  22. OrangeGuru

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    I think an underrated change that would occur from the increase in knock off users would be an increase in itemless sets. Pokes like Crobat and Talonflame already ran acrobatics sets that didn't use an item, but I think this list could increase to include mons with a lot of utility like Mew. Mew could run knock off of its own, soft-boiled and whatever else you need it to run for your team and be effective without an item. As for Trick, I'm not sure exactly how useful that move would be; sure, you can remove an opponent's mega, but a very small portion on your team would benefit (can really only think of Metagross snagging an opponent's Metagrossite and crippling it with something else). Also, Chansey would probably get stuck in this sort of middle ground where it can't afford to go itemless because of Eviolite's use, but would fear so much more in the meta (i.e. Thundurus with knock off), so it would need a team with knock off absorbers
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  23. AJC

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    that reads like how to make knock off the most broken move in the game and probably would see movements to get it banned i mean it already got a significant power buff in X/Y and then being able to take off mega stones would just make it so damn good that that just about every mon that can use knock off would use it.
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  24. Zowayix

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    To avoid being stuck with an itemless Chansey, would Blissey end up rising in usage instead?
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  25. OrangeGuru

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    Probably so. If you think about it, the risk of losing eviolite may be too much risk to run Chansey and Blissey would still be a great special tank with reliable recovery. Bliss was OU in Gens 2-5 for a reason

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