Gen 6 The XY Ubers Viability Ranking Thread [Read Post #1000]

[absdaddy]

Scarf Xerneas is an especially uncommon variant on Hyper Offense, and for Goth to set up on it it needs to be revealed that the Xerneas has scarf in the first place; I don't think Scarf Xerneas is relevant enough setup fodder to make up for Gothitelle's lackluster performance versus Hyper Offense in general. Gothitelle absolutely needs Sunlight to set up on Scarf Kyogre's Water Spout, which implies that you sacrificed Groudon, your potential Extremekiller/Zekrom check as well as Stealth Rock setter for a cheap opportunity to dispose of the offensive team's scarf Kyogre and maybe pull off a sweep assuming their team is weakened enough. I laddered to suspect reqs with a team consisting of Dual Hazards Scolipede / PhysDef Groudon / Scarf Kyogre / CM Fairyceus / Pursuit Mega Scizor / Gothitelle; whenever Goth wasn't getting roflstomped by an offensive mon's crit as it struggled to set up, it was being checked in a boosted state by Yveltal (an especially common Pokémon on Offense) and to a lesser extent things like Choice Band Genesect and Roar Dialga. I ended up using it as death fodder in a fair sum of games versus offense. Also, I'm fully aware of what offense typically runs on Palkia when it does choose to run that, but Palkia does have the option of running Roar or Dragon Tail as Gothitelle becomes more prevalent. I didn't think that was something that should be ignored. Like I stated previously, I think Gothitelle is a fine Pokémon versus stall and balance but in general it doesn't cut it versus offense.

EDIT: Yeah, also what WreckDra said *-*

what are we discussing? i never mentioned goth being good vs HO yet you brought it up for no reason here whatsoever, and like i said - it doesn't matter for me if goth can kill 4 pokemon like when facing balance or just one facing offense - key pokemon died and that's it. Also, goth+groudon(that eases trapping two of trap fodders so not a bad idea) should be ran, if just for likes of ogre. Saying that Goth is deadweight vs OFFENSE (not ho ?_?) is just spitting misinformation.

 

[MMII]

Wreckdra: Zekrom kills something -> Goth comes in -> eats a move and TRs -> Zekrom finishes off goth -> slow breaker (think bulky specs kyogre) comes in and spams super strong attacks for 4 turns

That + the 5 other mons on Goth's team as haunted pointed out.

 

[Inspirited]

Wreckdra: Zekrom kills something -> Goth comes in -> eats a move and TRs -> Zekrom finishes off goth -> slow breaker (think bulky specs kyogre) comes in and spams super strong attacks for 4 turns

That + the 5 other mons on Goth's team as haunted pointed out.

The only problem I would have with bringing it in on Krom is the potential for it to have a + Attack nature since that is what is most commonly used after all. Given the 3/8s chance for this Zekrom to OHKO Gothitelle (or the guaranteed chance if you manage to get up Spikes), I would much rather have Goth as Sleep Fodder than potentially be nothing at all. That is the way I would think of it anyways if I saw a team like that in a Team Preview.

 

[MMII]

Under 40% is fairly good odds. Spikes shouldn't be up against good builds cause sr + spikes from the get go is probably going to cost you the game regardless of goth. You can always setup on Draco, Outrage, Stone Edge, or Darkrai (if it has already slept and no taunt) if you don't like Bolt Strike odds.

Point is, though, that Gothitelle is far from useless. TR is still useful + the threat of trapping affecting how they build their team opens up more options for your other 5 mons.

 

[hyw]

Sorry if this has already been discussed but can someone explain to me the reasoning for Arceus-Normal being High A Rank? In my opinion, it is an easy S Rank, even beating Kyogre and Xerneas to it.
1. It is better this generation with several of its checks being lifted in terms of popularity, such as Skarmory, Choice Scarf Terrakion, Giratina (both Alternate and Origin forms), Forretress, and so on.
2. With the introduction of XY, despite the additions of Will-O-Wisps's increase and accuracy as well as Foul Play Yveltal, on the other hand, it can still beat many of the other Pokémon introduced this generation, such as Aegislash, Gengar (both pre and post-Mega Evolution), Blaziken (both pre and post-Mega Evolution) lacking Protect, Lucario (both pre and post-Mega Evolution).
3. It is even better than Xerneas for three reasons. First, it can hold an item that is unnecessary in the set-up process. Unlike the obligatory Power Herb, Arceus-Normal is able to harness a plethora of items, including Life Orb, Silk Scarf, Lum Berry, Leftovers, and Choice Band, serving possibilities for versatility, translating to better team adaptation. Second, its primary weapon for KOs, Extreme Speed, is superior to Xerneas's, in Moonblast, as it has +2 priority, automatically outpacing attempts to wear Arceus down through means such as Sucker Punch, Mach Punch, Bullet Punch, Ice Shard, and so on. Third, its set-up method is much lower risk than Xerneas, as it has infinite set-up opportunities, in comparison to Xerenas's one.

 

[Minority]

While I agree with you for the most part what you are forgetting is that Geomancy Xerneas has fewer checks that don't suck complete ass when compared to EKiller. Obviously the Geomancy set alone is not why Xerneas is S rank: Scarf, Life Orb, and defensive sets are all great too. Arceus-Normal is basically always EKiller, sure an item or coverage move is different to better handle one of its potential checks but it largely serves the same purpose for a team, Band is the major distinction.

 

[hyw]

While I agree with you for the most part what you are forgetting is that Geomancy Xerneas has fewer checks that don't suck complete ass when compared to EKiller. Obviously the Geomancy set alone is not why Xerneas is S rank: Scarf, Life Orb, and defensive sets are all great too. Arceus-Normal is basically always EKiller, sure an item or coverage move is different to better handle one of its potential checks but it largely serves the same purpose for a team, Band is the major distinction.

Has fewer checks? Arceus: Skarmory, Terrakion, Arceus-Ghost, Arceus-Fighting, Giratina-Alternate, Giratina-Origin, Groudon, and Yveltal; 8. Xerneas: Aegislash, Chansey, Blissey, Excadrill, Genesect, Heatran, Scizor, Thundurus, Klefki, Venusaur, Arceus-Fire, -Poison, and -Steel; that's 13. This is disregarding mutual checks such as Ditto and Unaware Pokémon, and there is some wiggle room, of course, but this difference of 5 from a list off the top of my head means that, at best, Xerneas must have about the equal number of checks in the tier as Arceus-Normal does (and, to be frank, as aforementioned, Arceus-Normal's checks has decreased in popularity in comparison to the previous generation). Coupled with the fact that, while Xerneas loses to repeated attempts of priority, Arceus does not, as it can KO threats such as Rayquaza, Yveltal, and opposing Arceus before it can damage Arceus itself. In conclusion, I believe your first argument does not reflect upon reality with clear accuracy.

About your second argument: yes, Arceus runs basically only one set that's outstanding (its support set is mediocre at best in my opinion), but I don't think that's a valid argument since Kyogre, Mega Mewtwo X, and Mega Mewtwo Y (all of whom are S Ranked Pokémon) run basically one set as well; Kyogre is 4 attacks with a choice item, and Mega Mewtwo X and Mega Mewtwo Y with 3 attacks and Taunt. Kyogre has the option of running defensive sets, too, but with the weather nerf this generation, in my opinion, that set is as good as Arceus's support set thanks to the Will-O-Wisp buff and its ability to check new threats such as Mega Kangaskhan and old friends with increased popularity such as Zekrom and Ho-Oh.

 

[Minority]

Xerneas: Aegislash, Chansey, Blissey, Excadrill, Genesect, Heatran, Scizor, Thundurus, Klefki, Venusaur, Arceus-Fire, -Poison, and -Steel; that's 13.

If I slash the ones that are shit mons you are left with three.

Also you forgot Victini and Mega Lucario yet you listed Venusaur and Arceus-Fire.

 

[Disaster Area]

Yeah what minority slashed aren't checks. And you missed hippodown, lando-t, heck even salamence, from ekiller's checks that are viable in the current meta (lando is a shitty check but it is a check), and stalltwo; giratina-A is terrible as is skarmory (fire coverage more common than ghost these days on ekiller it's just not really used) and arc-fighting; if you do include skarmory as a check then ferrothorn, a more viable pokemon in this meta needs mentioning too, whilst support arceus forms with WoW (u mentioned ghost, but rock and water are valid too) are notable checks. So yeah ur list is kinda bad =/ Point thus not made.

 

[hyw]

If I slash the ones that are shit mons you are left with three.

Also you forgot Victini and Mega Lucario yet you listed Venusaur and Arceus-Fire.

For the sake of argument, Victini requires sun support to beat Xerneas and Mega Lucario fails to KO with Bullet Punch. On the other hand, Mega Venusaur and Arceus-Fire are able to Roar it out, as can Arceus-Steel, too. This is indeed a valid argument in stopping Xerneas as once you pseudo-haze a Xerneas after it has consumed its Power Herb, it is much less of a threat. Chaney and Blissey are decent checks when Xerneas lacks Substitute or Close Combat, Excadrill beats most variants in sand, and Genesect beats most variants with Sticky Web support. I kind of assumed that you knew what I meant when I said that the Pokémon I listed are able to check Xerneas; adaptation to the nature of the team structure was insinuated but I wasn't clear enough, my bad.

Yeah what minority slashed aren't checks. And you missed hippodown, lando-t, heck even salamence, from ekiller's checks that are viable in the current meta (lando is a shitty check but it is a check), and stalltwo; giratina-A is terrible as is skarmory (fire coverage more common than ghost these days on ekiller it's just not really used) and arc-fighting; if you do include skarmory as a check then ferrothorn, a more viable pokemon in this meta needs mentioning too, whilst support arceus forms with WoW (u mentioned ghost, but rock and water are valid too) are notable checks. So yeah ur list is kinda bad =/ Point thus not made.

I did miss Landorus-T, yes, as it can switch in on the Swords Dance, stomach an Extreme Speed, and retaliate significantly with a Superpower or Earthquake. On the other hand, Hippowdon and Salamance are not checks because while it is able to stomach a hit and pseudo-haze Arceus out, it cannot mar the Alpha Pokémon substantially enough to pressure it; this means that it can easily find another opportunity to set-up with Swords Dance and threaten your team. Now, some may claim that this is an invalid claim because I claimed that Skarmory is a counter, too, but there is a difference of central importance when comparing Pokémon like Skarmory to other supposed checks like Hippowdon and Salamance: and that is Skarmory's ability to wall Ekiller indefinitely.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Shadow Claw vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 107-126 (32.1 - 37.8%) -- 94.2% chance to 3HKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 207-243 (49.4 - 57.9%) -- 60.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 266-316 (67.6 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As you can see, the difference is quite noticeable. While Skarmory is able to Roost and Whirlwind without worry, losing about 1/3 of its health to Shadow Claw considering the following Leftovers recovery, while Hippowdon and Salamanca are in fact threatened to a 2HKO. It is also worth noting that, while Shadow Claw is indeed has a high critical hit ratio, critical hits are x1.5 instead of the x2.0 last generation.

Ferrothorn is an interesting check as it can sap Arceus's HP with the combination of Leech Seed and Protect, but once you switch in as it Swords Dances, you need one more turn to Leech Seed it. As the opposing Arceus Swords Dances again, it is at +4 with you having landed some Leech Seeds. Finally, you Gyro Ball as it boosts to +6 and it will already be too late and you would have a bit more than a 50% chance to hope for you not being OHKOed: +6 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 317-374 (90.3 - 106.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO. At least, that how I view the scenario when considering Ferrothorn as an Ekiller check, and as you can see from the situation I illustrated, it's shaky at best.

I also do not consider StallTwo and support Arceus to be checks for two reasons: first, with Life Orb, both are KOed after a +2 hit without burn and a +2 hit with a burn. Second, Arceus may opt to carry a Lum Berry, resulting in any effort to bring in a bulky Pokémon to burn it futile. =/ counter-argumentative point thus not made.

In summary, as a revisal to my original claim, only one Pokémon was added to the list of Arceus-Normal's checks: 1, and none of Xerneas's checks were removed. Despite attempts of refutal to my stance on this, I still believe Arceus-Normal easily deserves a spot in the S Rank, trampling all other candidates to it with its mighty horse legs.

 

[Minority]

For the sake of argument, Victini requires sun support to beat Xerneas and Mega Lucario fails to KO with Bullet Punch.

TR Victini does not need sun to fuck over Xerneas and although it dies in the process of checking Xern (Klefki does to) it does a better job than most of the things that are designed to stop Xern. Scizor also does not OHKO Xern with Bullet Punch so there is no excuse for listing it an not Mega Lucario, they are both used as ways of Revenge killing Xern.

 

[hyw]

TR Victini does not need sun to fuck over Xerneas and although it dies in the process of checking Xern (Klefki does to) it does a better job than most of the things that are designed to stop Xern. Scizor also does not OHKO Xern with Bullet Punch so there is no excuse for listing it an not Mega Lucario, they are both used as ways of Revenge killing Xern.

If you says so, though I dislike such methods of beating a Pokémon. In the end, though, all you did was prove that Xerneas is easier to check than I once thought, strengthening my opinion that Arceus thus deserves a spot in the S Rank. :)

 

[Disaster Area]

A check means it can switch in and then do something realistically not totally useless in most instances on the following turn
so your arguements are flawed

 

[hyw]

"Realistically not totally useless." What are you, a lawyer?

[12:26:13] HybridHenri: Hey MM2
[12:26:14] HybridHenri: are you there?
[12:26:19] HybridHenri: What is your definition of a check.
[12:29:04] +Melee Mewtwo: idk idc
[12:29:12] +Melee Mewtwo: stops the mon from doing things
[12:29:18] +Melee Mewtwo: that makes you lose

Those two definitions are very different; Mega Lucario may harm Xerneas greatly but it won't be stopping a sweep.

 

[Fireburn]

Skarm and Ferro fail completely as checks if Arceus has Overheat just fyi

Not opposed to making it S-Rank but I'd like some more discussion on it first

 

[hyw]

Overheat is gimmicky, but it may be advised to make sure you have an Arceus-Normal counter that can take on an Arceus lacking Earthquake, so, say, Skarmory plus Arceus-Rock or Dialga.

 

[hyw]

Also, Terrakion and Arceus-Fighting are hardly relevant mons that check Extreme Killer in XY; Arceus-Fighting largely lacks a niche this generation outside of checking Extreme Killer, making it justifiably uncommon on the majority of teams.Terrakion is virtually only seen on webs, where Mega Lucario also has the opportunity to check Extreme Killer, even though both greatly despise switching in on an Earthquake. Come to think of it, a lot of Extreme Killer checks fall flat on their faces when met with various coverage moves; Groudon is subject to weakening through Overheat, Fire Blast, or the uncommon Grass Knot, Hippowdon and Salamence cannot withstand repeated assaults from Life Orb Extreme Killer as well as losing in a last-Pokémon situation, Giratina forms are rather useless this generation in an all-around sense and are vulnerable to Lum Berry or Life Orb Shadow Claw/Shadow Force, Overheat roasts Skarmory and Ferrothorn, the list goes on. Extreme Killer boasts enough versatility, utility, power, and revenge-killing prowess that I'd like to nominate it for S-Rank

Just wanted to emphasize again that Extreme Killer Arceus Normal has in fact LOST obstacles this generation. It deserved S Rank last generation due to it being the one and only fearsome set-up-and-sweep Pokémon and the fact that it is below S-Rank in this generation is nothing short of preposterousness.

I mean just look at the S Rank as it is right now, Ekiller beats Gengar, Mewtwo, Mega Mewtwo. Y, and Xerneas one-on-one most of the time, it beats Kyogre if you manipulate it properly, and Mega Mewtwo X is hardly a threat when compared to the mighty Alpha Pokémon. Come to think of it, why is Mega Mewtwo X a S Rank, anyway?

I don't understand why I'm arguing about this in the first place, Arceus and Xerneas are basically the same Pokémon when considering the tier's threats as both of them boost in a single turn and are super strong and powerful, it's just that they beat different things, like Chansey and Terrakion. Due to the reasons I outlined in my previous posts, Ekiller is even more threatening than Xerneas as a sweeper so it should easily be S Rank, simple as that. To be honest Xerneas's other sets like Choice Scarf and cleric are mediocre at best.

 

[orch]

Ekiller beats Gengar, Mewtwo, Mega Mewtwo. Y, and Xerneas one-on-one most of the time

Blatantly false for 3/4 lol. Unless you define 1 for 1 as "beating", then I guess you're right for 2/4.

Mega Gengar forces 1v1 and can play mindgames with levitate. Arc is forced to run suboptimal spread (max speed) to have any hope to beat normal gengar. This is a significant nerf for ekiller. And I've seen and used gengar with protect just to ensure the speed boost and force 1 for 1 vs ekiller.

When you're saying "mewtwo", I'll assume that you're referring to stalltwo. In that case, you are going to face an UNNERVE will-o-wisp. The best that ekiller can do to beat stalltwo is try to somehow get a crit espeed after being burned.

252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo: 175-208 (42 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

MMY, I'll concede somewhat. But you need to realize that ekiller cannot set up on focus blast mmy without dying from LO recoil.

252 SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Arceus: 304-358 (79.7 - 93.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Xerneas?? Seriously? Xern is one of best ekiller check lol. Ekiller sword dance or espeed. Xern geo. Ekiller espeed. Xern moonblast, ekiller ded.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 335-395 (75.6 - 89.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[hyw]

I was assuming all standard sets. Ekiller is Swords Dance/Extreme Speed/Shadow Claw/Earthquake. 252 Atk/4 Def/252 Spe, Jolly nature. Assuming both sides are 100% healthy. Mewtwo and Mega Mewtwo Y are 3 attacks + Taunt. Ekiller Shadow Claws then Extreme Speeds, Ekiller wins. Assuming Gengar lacks Protect AND Destiny Bond, Ekiller outright KOs with Shadow Claw. Even with both Protect and Destiny Bond, Ekiller still has a 50/50 chance, and has breathing space as Mega Gengar needs at least three turns (with Sludge Wave) and two (with Focus Blast, which has a 49% chance of making contact twice), while Ekiller can Swords Dance or Extreme Speed during Destiny Bonds and OHKO with Earthquake. Arceus does lose to. Geomancy Xerneas but wins against Choice Scarf and cleric variants, and does considerable damage to Geomancy variants, too.

 

[Disaster Area]

Fire Blast is about as common if not moreso than shadow claw, depending on team make up. So I tend to run shadow claw on teams where gira-O/ghostceus are bigger issues to punish (e.g. not carrying yveltal/darkrai) and fire blast one ones where I have more issue with other threats such as ferro and scizor (which is a large amount of HO that prefers this).

 

[hyw]

Fire Blast is about as common if not moreso than shadow claw, depending on team make up. So I tend to run shadow claw on teams where gira-O/ghostceus are bigger issues to punish (e.g. not carrying yveltal/darkrai) and fire blast one ones where I have more issue with other threats such as ferro and scizor (which is a large amount of HO that prefers this).

No.

 

[skies]

No.

Do you have any actual argument besides a one-liner that Piexplode is wrong? Seriously, Fire Blast is really good to roast (hue) Scizor and Genesect and, while it does leave it weak to Giratina and other Ghost-types, it still has an actual trade off. Even Overheat could see use.

 

[Hack]

I don't know what we are really discussing but Fire Blast is often much better to use on HO teams, the usual Xern/Yveltal support makes ghosts less of an issue. Shadow Claw is legit for hitting Ghostceus, but Giratina formes are rare and pretty bad, especially Giratina-A who can be taken advantage of by many things in the current meta.

 

[Disaster Area]

Well I disagree with Gira-O being bad, but otherwise your point stands.

 

[Haunted Diamond]

Someone explain please, why is sylveon b+ and chansey isn't ranked? Doesn't sylveon have the same crippling flaw as chansey, aka being food for shadow tag?