Theorymon Discussion and Viability Ranking

[Halcyon.]

I don't see how Arcanine would be a better Lucario. They have the same attack stat, and Arcanine is bulkier, but it's also Stealth Rock weak and gets far fewer setup opportunities since it lacks the key x4 resistances that Lucario has (Rock, Dark). Not to mention its main STAB also takes away from its bulk and gets reduced in the rain. It might be loads better in UU, but in OU? I just don't see it being better than Lucario.

 

[Azure Demon]

I have to disagree. Not only would arcanine be worn down by rocks but, he can't sponge any status where lucario has an immunity to toxic. Arcanine also has issues in 3 out of the 4 existing weather conditions primary one being rain since it will weaken his flare blitz attempts and in sand+hail decrase his lifespan. Lucario functions well in all barring hail, even then he is simply taking a bit of extra damage. His attacks still pack the same punch and he doesn't lose anything in particular.

To expand on what light said a bit, lucario's typing allows for far more setup opportunities as well. Steel fighting grants not 1, not 2, but 3 4x resist. Rock, bug, dark (the final one boosting his attack stat if packing justified). To go along with those 4 x resist he also has resistance to dragon, steel, ghost, grass, ice and normal attacks.
Arcanine isn't so fortunate it resist ice, grass, bug, steel, and of course fire (maybe even getting a boost but losing physical bulk if it does run flash fire). However, it is weak to ground, rock, and water 3 attack types that are huge in OU. While also being neutral to a ton of other popular move types. It just won't have the safe switch opportunities that Luke does.

Only thing arcanine has going for it would be sun advantage and bulk from intimidate. Lucario even has better coverage than arcanine could even hope for in a OU setting with 3 slots.

 

[Flygoner818]

What if Tornadus got Switcheroo?

First of all, this totally fits Tornadus' flavor, with Prankster and all. Plus, the other Prankster users (Whimsicott, Sableye, Liepard, etc.) all get either Switcheroo or Trick.

Secondly, this would turn Tornadus into one of the most deadly Choice users in the tier. Whatever it couldn't break with its stellar Special Attack, it could cripple with Choice Specs. Now watch as Jirachi and Chansey shudder in their boots.

Tornadus @ Choice Specs
Nature: Timid / Naive
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
Ability: Prankster
- Hurricane
- Focus Blast
- Heat Wave / Air Slash / U-Turn
- Switcheroo

But as we all know, Switcheroo wouldn't be limited to just Choice Specs. You could use a Choice Scarf, Choice Band, Flame/Toxic Orb...the possibilities are endless.

 

[GCSChris]

Yeah you guys are right, it would be really good UU though, as is already semi-decent. I guess I forgot that Lucario is actually good :P. I think Arcanine would be seen on Sun a bit in OU and would really get the boost it needs to become great in UU.

 

[Azure Demon]

Flygoner that is interesting actually. Only thing is it would still have a hard time even in UU to survive.

It's defenses mean even resisted moves will hurt, a lot of priority tends to tear through tornadus namely fake out ambipom, ice shard from anyone really, bullet punch, aqua jet, and especially extremespeed.

Also, this set wouldn't work with any of the other items like toxic orb or flame orb because using those items are pretty much making it to where you can't switch your tornadus in you HAVE to wait until something dies to bring it in. Also if anything has protect or detect it can scout and cause you to status yourself, Further decreasing the life of this already frail poke.

 

[Chou Toshio]

We actually already talked about SD Arcanine earlier in the thread, but I think you guys are seriously underestimating it.

Yes, Lucario heavily resists SR, is immune to sand, and comes with loads of resistances. But you can't ignore the effects of raw stats.

At 90 / 80 / 80, Arcanine is in an entirely different class of bulk from Lucario's 70 / 70 / 70. Add in Intimidate (which would be the best ability for SD Ex-Speed hands down), and now you've got a seriously legit bulk for a setup sweeper. Let me just remind you that even Landorus-T only has 89 / 90 / 80 bulk, which is only a bit better than Arcanine's.

From the OU Viability Ranking thread, list of Pokemon Arcanine could reliably set up on (only considering offensive attacks, not status):
-Breloom
-Celebi
-Ferrothorn
-Jirachi
-Ninetales
-Scizor
-Skarmory
-Volcarona
-Foretress
-Lucario
-Toxicroak
-Abomasnow
-Bronzong
-Amoongus
-Sableye
-Xatu

Note this doesn't account for status moves, but Lucario and Arcanine are equally threatened by Sleep and Paralysis. Lucario is immune to Poison, but honestly that is NO WHERE NEAR as useful as Arcanine's immunity to BURN as a PHYSICAL ATTACKER. With Sun support, Pokemon like Tentacruel and Jellicent would also be setup bait for Arcanine.

Then let's just remember that Arcanine's STAB Flare Blitz is a tool Lucario could only dream of. Potentially oosted by Sun, and has incredible coverage with ExtremeSpeed and Close Combat.

SD Arcanine would not be a top tier threat, just like Lucario isn't a top tier threat. But SD Arcanine would DEFINITELY be a more impressive Pokemon than Metagross, Vaporeon, Infernape, or Blissey for instance. OU would definitely be possible.

 

[Azure Demon]

How will arcanine setup on celebi? A lot of celebi's like to run the earth power specifically for fire types and if it is an offensive celebi it can almost 1 shot it and is guaranteed to outspeed it. Even if it is a defensive celibi setting up on it is kind of suicide because one earth power will take 49-57%. If you're going to ohko the celebi you have to fire off a flare blit,z but from that point I'm pretty sure you'd kill yourself killing the celibi thanks to celebi's reasonably high hp.

Same with jirachi.

As for the butterfly I don't agree either. Valcarona's tend to take hp ground with them these days so if he gets a quiver dance arcanine can hang it up! that bug is nothing to mess with.

You may think it can setup on lucario but this is not the case at all my friend.

Lucario running adamant nature+ max attack+life orb -1 attack stage still does 61-72% to arcanine

And if rocks are up it will be near dying first turn after entering. Because you attempted an sd on luke.


You maybe thinking well after the SD, the CC defense drop, and life orb recoil I can kill it. Truth is you have a small shot at killing it (only if you have the life orb)


252Atk Life Orb +2 Flash Fire Arcanine (+Atk) ExtremeSpeed vs 0HP/0Def -1 Lucario (Neutral): 79% - 93% (222 - 262 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

Without life orb

252Atk +2 Flash Fire Arcanine (+Atk) ExtremeSpeed vs 0HP/0Def -1 Lucario (Neutral): 60% - 71% (171 - 202 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.


Arcanine can setup on amoongus but having arcanine get stun spored or spored can also mean bye bye attack boost thanks to clear smog.

If skarm sees arcanine and knows it can get sd it can phaze you out and put you back to neutral.

Point is it can't really setup for free on these pokes it can easily get shut down if it doesn't take the opportunities to kill off these pokes one sight it will just get shut down and will have to start over or it may not get the chance to live to do that. and if rocks or weather (not named rain or sun) is out it's takes residual damage in addition to the damage it inflicts on itself. Not to mention entry hazards take their toll. Being forced out by whirlwind or roar while hazards are out is something arcanine can't deal with, but lucario can. Arcanine needs a clean field, no rain, no sand, no hail and no poison to make things work.

Also believe it or not toxic is pretty big for a LO sweeper. It over all lessens the amount of time your pokemon can be in. Think about it. Toxic+lo+potiental weather damage+entry hazards. Arcanine won't last long.

 

[Spinda]

I haven't seen an earth power celebi since BW1

 

[GCSChris]

Lucario is immune to Poison, but honestly that is NO WHERE NEAR as useful as Arcanine's immunity to BURN as a PHYSICAL ATTACKER. With Sun support, Pokemon like Tentacruel and Jellicent would also be setup bait for Arcanine.

I'm not sure if I agree with this, Arcanine would only be good while Sun is up, and obviously, that is a big issue. Simply put, I think it would be a threat in Sun in OU, and WAY better in UU. In OU, Arcanine's fire typing is kind of more of a curse (SR, rain) than a blessing (immunity to burn). In BW2 OU, I would take immunity to toxic w/ steel typing over immunity to burn with fire typing because again, rain is a huge problem. Plus, Lucario's typing allows it more set up opportunities, but then again Arcanine has better bulk. I'm not saying SD Arcanine wouldn't be good; I think it would be amazing, but Lucario would remain the presence it is, while Arcanine would become a huge threat on sun. Due to its great offenses and bulk, Arcanine is an ideal set up swepper, and it really wishes it had SD, great suggestion as a theorymon klvkboom. I would love to see Arcanine get SD.

 

[GCSChris]

I'm not sure if I agree with this, Arcanine would only be good while Sun is up, and obviously, that is a big issue. Simply put, I think it would be a threat in Sun in OU, and WAY better in UU. In OU, Arcanine's fire typing is kind of more of a curse (SR, rain) than a blessing (immunity to burn). In BW2 OU, I would take immunity to toxic w/ steel typing over immunity to burn with fire typing because again, rain is a huge problem. Plus, Lucario's typing allows it more set up opportunities, but then again Arcanine has better bulk. I'm not saying SD Arcanine wouldn't be good; I think it would be amazing, but Lucario would remain the presence it is, while Arcanine would become a huge threat on sun. Due to its great offenses and bulk, Arcanine is an ideal set up swepper, and it really wishes it had SD, great suggestion as a theorymon klvkboom. I would love to see Arcanine get SD.

EDIT: How do i delete?

 

[klvkboom]

There's also another problem it has: a weakness to Aqua Jet, which, after factoring in Entry Hazard damage, can make quick work of it.

I'm interested in why you brought up Aqua Jet as something that can counter Arcanine, because Ex-Speed has a higher priority and does a rather significant number to Aqua Jet's common users. Some of the common and bulkiest users such as Azumarill and Feraligatr both take 65% damage at minimum from a +2 LO Ex-Speed, which means with a little team support Arcanine has no problems dealing with Aqua Jet at all (unless of course, your opponent is using either Kabutops, Empoleon, or Carracosta w/ Aqua Jet -.-).

Only thing arcanine has going for it would be sun advantage and bulk from intimidate. Lucario even has better coverage than arcanine could even hope for in a OU setting with 3 slots.

While I do agree with you that Luc has better SE coverage to an extent, I do have to put out that Arcanine has better neutral coverage than Luc if he sports both Flare Blitz and CC. What I mean by this is that Luc has to rely on his choice of 3rd attack between Ice Punch/Crunch/Bullet Punch to get an important hit over his common counters. These attacks pretty much have to be SE (or in Bullet Punch's case: coverage for Gengar, ScarfTar, and Terrakion) or else a resisted CC is still stronger. What this means is that against some Pokemon, Luc's strongest attack against them is a 90 base power move after STAB and resistances are accounted for. Arcanine with CC as his last move forgoes SE coverage for better neutral hits on his would-be checks, hitting with a 120 base power CC.

Essentially what this means though is that Luc has a better way to deal with many of his counters, whereas Arcanine has a better way to deal with his checks.

 

[Azure Demon]

I haven't seen an earth power celebi since BW1

I actually run ep on celibi so I don't get my face pushed in by freaking heatran

 

[GCSChris]

I only see EP on Celebi on the Nasty Plot set. It's pretty nice against Heatran, which otherwise walls it to hell. Then again, Psychic provides another STAB. It's still around, as heatran is pretty damn good right now, and will only get better if Landorus gets banned.

 

[Flygoner818]

Flygoner that is interesting actually. Only thing is it would still have a hard time even in UU to survive.

It's defenses mean even resisted moves will hurt, a lot of priority tends to tear through tornadus namely fake out ambipom, ice shard from anyone really, bullet punch, aqua jet, and especially extremespeed.

Also, this set wouldn't work with any of the other items like toxic orb or flame orb because using those items are pretty much making it to where you can't switch your tornadus in you HAVE to wait until something dies to bring it in. Also if anything has protect or detect it can scout and cause you to status yourself, Further decreasing the life of this already frail poke.

Azure Demon, these aren't exactly new problems for him, and:
1. Who the fuck uses Fake Out Ambipom seriously these days? Such an irrelevant threat, this isn't DPP (really DP). Tornadus isn't special in that it has to worry more about priority than anyone else. EVERY OTHER POKEMON has to be prepared for it as well, and you don't see people not using Dragonite or Garchomp because they're 4x weak to Ice Shard.
2. Nine times out of ten, you're switching Tornadus in after something dies. As you would Alakazam or Breloom or any other frail, powerful Pokémon. That's kind of the point: it's guys like Tornadus that cause switches and force the opponent to bring in a hard counter like Chansey or Jirachi (if using Specs), who is then crippled by losing their item.
3. I only listed Flame/Toxic Orb as examples of how it could take advantage of its ability, not sets that I actually believed were viable. Your arguments are obvious and counterproductive, not saying anything much in the way of how this theoretical move might help Tornadus.

btw Tornadus is a viable Pokémon in OU.

 

[Azure Demon]

Ambipom fake out is irrelevant? What?! If anything is more valuable than ever thanks to shit with sturdy.

Any pokemon who can not only remove your first turn but also break your built in sash while carrying the possibility to kill you after said sash (sturdy) is broken?! How is that irrelevant?
Alakazam I defiantly agree with but breloom can switch in on a few pokes in OU actually but that's nothing to nitpick over.

But I apologize if my opinion of the set just differs from yours and you didn't like my argument. I could also go in depth about why people use chomp and dragonite despite their 4x weakness, but it wouldn't be productive and would just start an argument.

I think trick would be interesting for him to have no doubt, but I think he could benefit from something else instead you know?

I could certainly see it crippling things like chancey and blissey. If you steal evolite from chancey you could also cripple some of your opponents other pokes by giving them a useless item.

I'm just concerned about his endurance you know? But other than that it seems great



With prankster he could get something like calm mind. That would be interesting

Sub+mind+prankster with a 125 base attack stat and a 111 base speed stat would be great for tornadus.

Fill the last 2 slots with hurricane and focus blast wide lens, lefties or lum berry as the items of choice.

 

[Chou Toshio]

You guys are missing the point. Lucario doesn't need to WALL enemies to set up-- he just needs to be able to switch in and scare stuff out. You can look at the whole list of OU Pokemon and there's barely anything Lucario can switch into without ANY worry-- it takes prediction and skill to switch him in and set up. If that's all Lucario needs to be OU, than SD Arcanine can certainly accomplish that much.

So I'm not arguing that Arcanine can flawlessly counter everything on that list-- but can he predict and find chances to switch into Celebi? Jirachi? Scizor? Luke? Scare them out while setting up? Oh he most definitely can do that. If it's not about countering foes, but just finding opportunities to intelligently switch in and scare stuff out, Intimidate Arcanine can do this as well if not better than Lucario.

 

[Azure Demon]

That's the thing Chou. I really don't think he can intimidate those pokemon to a point where they feel the must tag out. I feel like his typing+ the fact that his best move will break not only his opponent, but him in the process makes him less intimidating over all. Is what I'm shooting at. I'm not saying he can't be effective I just don't think he will be more effective than luke

Edit: Well I take that back. There are particular situations in which you could force switches especially thanks to team preview. You can actually kind of form pre-game strat on how you should manipulate your opponent's team, and if all goes according to plan you can make your pokemon more intimidating via that way.

 

[vyomov]

Darmanitan-Z is the new Chandelure in town...
105/105/105 Bulk means it can easily set up to +2 with CM and then sweep...
Or you could just spam Fire Blast on a specs set LOL.

 

[Chou Toshio]

That's the thing Chou. I really don't think he can intimidate those pokemon to a point where they feel the must tag out. I feel like his typing+ the fact that his best move will break not only his opponent, but him in the process makes him less intimidating over all. Is what I'm shooting at. I'm not saying he can't be effective I just don't think he will be more effective than luke

Well, keeping in mind that Luke itself is not all that effective... I mean in all the games I've played in BW, I can probably count the number of games I've been swept by a Lucario on my fingers. In comparing SD Arcanine to Luke, we're not saying that it would be a monster-- because frankly neither one is close to being anything "monstrous" in OU.

But seriously, what are you talking about it can't force switches? If it gets in, the Pokemon I listed will feel a LOT of pressure to switch out. Also, you are over-estimating the problems associated with Flare Blitz's recoil. Usually, id doesn't turn out to be all that much.

-Breloom (At -1, it can't really hurt Arcanine-- scared of being One-shot by flare blitz)
-Celebi (Most don't have the speed, power, and Earth Power in moveset to hurt arcanine. Also, if it's a bulky ev'd Arcanine (which is totally possible, unlike with Luke), it's screwed no matter what it does)
-Ferrothorn (Thunder Wave is the only thing Ferrothorn can do to hurt Arcanine. If Arcanine gets in on Ferro, it will have to switch out in fear of one shot)
-Jirachi (Most are support sets slower than a sweeper Arcanine. Flare Blitz will one shot it, so it's pressured to switch out)
-Ninetales (Can't do jack, so its switch out or get set up-- Roar / Toxic being your best options, but Ninetales is scared of repeated CC/ExSpeed)
-Scizor (Can totally set up on this shit)
-Skarmory (Can totally set up on this shit)
-Volcarona (From my experience, most are running Giga Drain now to deal with Terrak/Keldeo
-Foretress (.__.)
-Lucario (Luke is slower than Arcanine... unless he wants to be one shot, he will switch out)
-Toxicroak (Is pathetically weak at -1, and has Dry Skin. Unless Arcanine is taking him on in rain (why?) Toxicroak really doesn't want to face arcanine)
-Abomasnow (wtf would you leave your 4x weak weather starter in against arcy?)
-Bronzong (Can't do jack at -1 to Arcy)
-Amoongus (one shot-- might stay i and sac itself since it will have most likely used Spore by the time Arcy switches in on it)
-Sableye (is shit without W-o-W, might be brave enough to stay in and Taunt...)
-Xatu (can't really do jack to arcy, but t-wave and nightshade kind of do something I guess)

 

[Azure Demon]

Funny thing is I'm not over estimating it. Flare blitz recoil is 1/3 the amount the user does to the other pokemon. Even attempting to one shot a base 74 hp pokemon like ferrathorn with it will kick back 117 damage to arcanine alone.

Breloom: actually can do well over half to an arcanine with or without being intimidated.
Sure there may be situations where a person will want to switch, but things like predictions come into play. Don't you think if arcanine gets sd people at some point are going to say " I may have to sack a poke but I can't give this thing a free turn to setup on me."

Amoongus: could be rocking spore or stun spore and don't forget yet again that he does get the clear smog. People seriously underestimate the potential of that move In terms of it's ability to shut down stat boosters.

Jirachi: I don't think that it's fair to say most are support sets. I actually still see quite a few cm rachi's and even scarf ones. Rachi is a versatile pokemon and for arcanine attempt to setup on it without knowing what rachi is running is not good at all.

Ferrathorn: is actually another interesting case sure he can definetly one shot ferrathorn, but think about just how much damage arcanine would take attempting a one shot on a ferrathorn! Flare blitz+iron barb+life orb (if running it) I'm pretty sure with rocks up arcanine would have to think twice about trying to one shot him.

valcarona: I find they tend to run whatever they find more beneficial to the entirety of the team. With hp ground you're not really losing. Se coverage on anything except keldeo. You also gain the ability to wreck heatran because otherwise he can wall valcorna and potentially phaze it out as well.

Skarmory: nope can't setup on this guy. With max hp. Phaze your ass out without a second thought thanks to sturdy.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Dude, do you ever set up Lucario at the beginning of the game when you don't know what sets your opponent is running? No way. You'd only ever try to set up near the end of the game when you have an idea of what's going on. So what's this bullshit about not knowing Jirachi's set, Skarmory still having Sturdy active, or Amoongus having still not activated sleep clause? And really, unless the opponent is absolutely desperate, or didn't need the Pokemon in question at all, most of the time he won't want to risk a Pokemon getting one shot without doing anything.

Try using your head and thinking about the real application, how the set will actually be played in real games.

And be realistic. Luke doesn't set up 100% of the time. If anything, Luke is extremely hard pressed in this meta to find any set up opportunities, and it often gets its ass beat as it tries to set up. Of course Arcanine's not going to be successful setting up every time either, but it can definitely find as many opportunities as something as frail as Luke, resistances or no.

In all these Pokemon's cases, it's not even that Arcanine has to switch into them either. Lucario often only finds opportunity to set up and sweep after a revenge kill, and Arcanine should be given the same leeway when thinking about its set up opportunities.

The point is that considering its superior bulk, speed, offensive pressure, and intimidate, Arcanine definitely has as many switch in and force out opportunities as Luke. While Luke itself isn't that great an OU sweeper, if it can stay OU, SD Arcanine could definitely be OU too.

 

[Azure Demon]

I am thinking of actual applications in match. Just because you have an idea of what's happening doesn't mean you will always have the full picture man. Like what if rachi has had no reason to show you the other 2 moves in it's set. Not everything is black and white especially when it comes to this kind of stuff.

There are just too many variables and we need to consider as many as possible before rendering something viable or not viable. That's one of the things about theory fighting there are pleanty of variables that can't be completely set in stone until actually tested or results are actually seen. I'm not saying it's not a good set, I'm not saying it can't setup on things, but what I am saying is there are things the pokemon that you listed can do to stop it. Some have to be in a particular state or have to make a ballsy move, but it can be done. That's all

 

[Schpoonman]

If we're gonna talk about permanent Darmanitan-Z, can we talk about permanent Meloetta-P? Base 100 HP, base 128 Attack AND SPEED. It's not CombatEdge coverage, but I feel like we might see a little less Terrakion in the face of BASE ONE-HUNDRED-AND-TWENTY-EIGHT Speed. Please, let me know if I'm emphasizing that too much. But without Relic Song to take a slot, your only recourse to stop Meloetta is really throwing Ghosts at it, who are immune to your STABs. Skarmory isn't walling you (Def Skarm is 2HKOd by Close Combat). In fact, I'd go so far to say that a purely physical set is superior to the mixed set currently on-site. Here's my reckoning:

[SET]
move 1: Close Combat
move 2: Return
move 3: Ice Punch
move 4: Thunder Punch
item: Life Orb
nature: Jolly
evs: 64 HP / 252 Atk / 192 Spd

Outspeeds base 120s (with HP EVs obviously able to be dropped to outspeed up to Weavile), Def Jellicent is 2HKOd by Thunder Punch, Landorus-T is 2HKOd... Of course, these are all with Jolly, while Meloetta-P would have the freedom to run Adamant because she still outspeeds Tornadus with an Adamant nature, though you lose a small measure of bulk. But hey: You've got some pretty nice coverage and power, what's wrong with a Jolly Band set or an Adamant Scarf set?

 

[Chou Toshio]

I am thinking of actual applications in match. Just because you have an idea of what's happening doesn't mean you will always have the full picture man. Like what if rachi has had no reason to show you the other 2 moves in it's set. Not everything is black and white especially when it comes to this kind of stuff.

To be fair, you can almost always tell which set Jirachi is if you see just 1 attack and whether or not it has Leftovers (since Scarf is the only other item you commonly see, and CM doesn't have SR/Iron Hear/Body Slam). Info will not always be perfect, but you really should get a decent amount of info before you attempt to sweep with something like SD Arcanine (same as you wouldn't try to set up Luke early game).

There are just too many variables and we need to consider as many as possible before rendering something viable or not viable. That's one of the things about theory fighting there are pleanty of variables that can't be completely set in stone until actually tested or results are actually seen. I'm not saying it's not a good set, I'm not saying it can't setup on things, but what I am saying is there are things the pokemon that you listed can do to stop it. Some have to be in a particular state or have to make a ballsy move, but it can be done. That's all

I may have caused some confusion when I used the word "reliable" in "reliably set up on", especially when pre-req'd that statement by saying "not including status moves". But yeah, I was in no way trying to say that none of these pokes can ever do anything to Arcanine. Fuck, even Sableye could wreck SD Arcanine if it predicts the SD, stays in and uses Foul Play. lol

Just saying that there ARE numerous opponents and numerous situations in a game where Arcanine's unique set of bulk, Intimidate, and resistances (because he does have some useful ones) would allow it to set up. I said you guys were closing the book on Arcanine's set up ability too quick just because it's not a steel type and has an SR weak, and I believe that too be true.

Of course those are major concerns, but Arcanine definitely has the defensive assets needed to at least match Luke's defensive assets (those assets both need to switch in and set up).

 

[klvkboom]

I believe that for many sweepers, it is quite easy to grab at least 1 turn of set-up. Any more than 1 turn means that there's a lot of misplay from your opponent, but more often than not, at least 1 turn of more than likely guaranteed. Arcanine is no different. You can easily put your opponent's back to a wall when you Intimidate them and have the presence to OHKO immediately, and like many other set-up sweepers this is how they get their 1 turn of set-up. Breloom, Amoongus, Rachi, Ferro, and Skarm all fear being OHKO'd by Flare Blitz before SD (ExSpeed does 50-60% on Breloom to bypass mach punch, CC does 70-80% on Ferro as well if you fear heavy recoil), and so you'd have to predict the SD or otherwise lose a Poke due to bad prediction. With this in mind more often than not Pokes would switch out as it is the "safest" move, getting set-up sweepers their free turn. As such, you can't say Arcanine has issues nabbing 1 turn of boosts, because in fact it's very easy. Multiple turns of boosting is incredibly difficult to get, however, but many sweepers only need 1.

If we're gonna talk about permanent Darmanitan-Z, can we talk about permanent Meloetta-P? Base 100 HP, base 128 Attack AND SPEED. It's not CombatEdge coverage, but I feel like we might see a little less Terrakion in the face of BASE ONE-HUNDRED-AND-TWENTY-EIGHT Speed. Please, let me know if I'm emphasizing that too much.

Emphasis well needed, Meloetta-P would actually be a beast even if it doesn't have a powerful set-up move like Terrakion does. Not to mention that U-turn is also in its movepool which only means that it can easily put insane pressure. Boasting high ATK and Spd, it already poses a threat to KO many Pokes, and U-turn solidifies that as a scouting tool since it already forces switches. It's possible to see Meloetta-P as Choiced but that could pose a problem since Ghosts are immune it's STAB, but then again, it's weakness is a very powerful bait to U-turn to a Pursuit Trapper.