Theorymon Discussion and Viability Ranking

JustAMan: Yeah. Yeah, no.

Arash: Azelf shouldn't be bolded and Dugtrio should. But it's sort of up in the air besides. None of them can switch in on Return (Jolly LO Return has a better than even chance of OHKOing Starmie and Azelf while Adamant OHKOs outright) and they're all taking at least half from Jolly Close Combat. Okay, nevermind, you have no reason not to run Jolly. Only Alakazam can do anything about Meloetta, and that's only if he has an intact Sash. Damn, girl.
 

ShootingStarmie

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What if Scrafty received priority? (Sucker Punch / Mach Punch)

Scrafty can run two viable sets in the OU metagame, although each set is arguably out classed in it's role by another Pokemon. However, Scrafty is a Dark / Fighting type, but it doesn't get access to Sucker Punch or Mach Punch. I think if it did receive these two moves, it would most likely become OU, mainly because the Dragon Dance set with Sucker Punch is deadly, as it fixes Scrafty's speed issue. I can see Mach Punch being mixed in there somewhere (maybe on the Bulk Up set like Conkeldurr?), but DD Sucker Punch I think would be the most common set.
 

Chou Toshio

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Hmm... I'm skeptical.

Scrafty isn't exactly what we'd think of as ideal in a priority user-- it doesn't have enough power. In order to truly abuse priority, you have to have a massive attack stat, swords dance, or both. Scrafty has neither. It would need a couple bulk ups just to get to the point where Mach Punch would sting-- and it would be really easy for phazers and other enemies to work around Sucker Punch (making your set up useless).

I mean, Scrafty wouldn't NOT want priority, but it still doesn't make any sense to use its bulk up set over Conkeldurr-- which is a lower ranking OU mon anyway.

Meanwhile, DD doesn't have the defenses for slow set up, nor room in its attack arsenal for priority (it needs both stabs and Ice Punch); plus priority is much less useful on a DD user.
 
What if Pursuit was +7 priority regardless of whether your opponent switches?

Both Scizor and Tyranitar benefit from this heavily, it puts pokemon like Starmie, Gengar and Alakazam, even Lati@s to an extent, in a terrible situation, it allows Scizor to revenge kill weakened volcarona without resorting to quick attack, if Celebi tries to baton pass to evade pursuit, it's still taking a good chunk of damage.

It would likely be the end of ScarfTar
 
Azelf shouldn't be bolded and Dugtrio should. But it's sort of up in the air besides. None of them can switch in on Return (Jolly LO Return has a better than even chance of OHKOing Starmie and Azelf while Adamant OHKOs outright) and they're all taking at least half from Jolly Close Combat. Okay, nevermind, you have no reason not to run Jolly. Only Alakazam can do anything about Meloetta, and that's only if he has an intact Sash. Damn, girl.
The bolded mons are ones capable of OHKOing with psychic, why wouldn't azelf be included? The point isn't that they can or can't switch in, but whether or not meloetta outspeeds and either OHKOs outright or U-turns away from.
 
The bolded mons are ones capable of OHKOing with psychic, why wouldn't azelf be included? The point isn't that they can or can't switch in, but whether or not meloetta outspeeds and either OHKOs outright or U-turns away from.
I thought you were highlighting common Pokemon, sorry.
 
What if Roserade got chlorophyll?

This thing wouldn't stay OU for long. Roserade is faster and much stronger then Venusaur, after a growth boost it ko's everything in OU except Heatran and Blissey.

Modest nature
56 HP / 252 SpA / 200 Spe
Growth / Sleep powder
Giga Drain / Leaf Storm
Sludge Bomb
Weather Ball

The EV's are to outspeed scarf Latios.
 
I have an idea, what if Anger Point also activated in more situations like whenever you get afflicted by a secondary effect from an attacking move or hitting yourself from confusion? It could act like a pseudo-Guts from Scald burns and make Jirachi more wary of flinch-haxing. I know the pokemon that get it aren't that great, I'm mainly suggesting an improvement to the ability itself.

What if Roserade got chlorophyll?

This thing wouldn't stay OU for long. Roserade is faster and much stronger then Venusaur, after a growth boost it ko's everything in OU except Heatran and Blissey.
I don't think Roserade would be banned. It's pretty frail so it gets OHKO'ed by common priority and has less set up opportunities. I think an all attacking set would probably be it's main use over Venusaur since it's able to use Weather Ball+HP Ice/Ground and has higher Special Attack and Speed.
 
The best Roserade set assuming Chlorophyll is probably Sleep Powder / Giga Drain / Weather Ball / Sludge Bomb, and it sorta works like Swift Swim Ludicolo; get in, dent / kill what you can and die so that another weather sweeper can come out and clean up.

It wouldn't replace Venusaur because it gets killed too easily by stray Bullet Punches and Extremespeeds, whereas Venusaur can usually live through one and blast through the opponent. Sun teams aren't exactly looking to stack their teams with Grass/Poison types, and Venusaur's bulk and comparable power usually wins it the teamslot over Roserade's extra speed (though outspeeding scarf 110s is nice, it's not worth folding to priority moves)
 
Venusaur does NOT have comparable power. It's already 25 base points in Special Attack behind and that's not even accounting for the fact that most Venusaur must run Timid so they aren't outsped by Scarf Latios. Roserade can run Modest and moreover, a better move set. Roserade's only complaint is that is it much more frail. Otherwise it is superior to Venusaur in every way.
 

Soul Fly

IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
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What if Rough Skin dealt damage both ways?

This mainly regarding a single pokemon in the Entire tier: Garchomp.

Flavour-wise my suggestion makes sense. If you hit a rough surface it hurts. It's only logical it would still hurt if the rough surface hits you back. What if it got a slight-yet-significant boost to damage with Rough Skin?

NOTE: The suggestion isn't as straightforward as it sounds. First of all we're dealing with Physical moves only, that too contact moves. So no buff for EQ or Fire Blast, so no fears about it being a free semi-life orb like boost. SE coverage of the things it really has a hard time getting past (read skarm) stays unaffected.

But at the same time outrage dealing an extra 12% damage is a tasty proposition making Garchomp much more potent at wallbreaking. Same goes for his common coverage moves which include Fire Fang/Dual Chop/Aqua Tail. No more compromising with a less-accurate uninvested Fire Blast just to hit Physical steels a bit harder, which would improve his coverage to no end. His lead set would also be very annoying (especially w/ rocks up) with DTail dealing additional secondary damage.

So what say? A very subtle yet a metagame defining change imo.
 
For reference, Jolly Bandchomp would do 47.01-50.68% to specially defensive skarm with DUAL CHOP
 
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With Dual Chop, Garchomp gets an extra 24% damage on any pokemon. That is insane, and would instantly make Garchomp even more of a threat. Garband 2HKOs everything in the tier, bar Skarmory (which Fire Fang would do 49%+ to). Bandchomp even 2HKOs Criesselia, one of the most bulky pokemon in the tier. With SR (and Band again), Fire fang is a guaranteed OHKO on Ferrothorn, Dual Chop gets the OHKO on 252 HP Dragonite with multiscale intact (it does 25% + 50% + Rough Skin), and tons more. I doubt it would make Garchomp ban worthy, but a huge threat to all teams, even ones with Skarmory, as it can muscle past skarm with SR up. I think that would make it comparable to Kyurem-B, but with less bulk and greater speed.
 
Venusaur does NOT have comparable power. It's already 25 base points in Special Attack behind and that's not even accounting for the fact that most Venusaur must run Timid so they aren't outsped by Scarf Latios. Roserade can run Modest and moreover, a better move set. Roserade's only complaint is that is it much more frail. Otherwise it is superior to Venusaur in every way.
When I say comparable, I don't mean that they are close as far as stats. I mean that after a growth, Venusaur can kill the same things as Roserade just as well (with the possible exception of Latias, but sludge bomb does at least 70% to most Latias, so with SR and a little prior damage the point is moot).

Venusaur, however, will not be forced to switch out when they see a Scizor or Dragonite or Lucario, because at decent health it can live through one priority attack and OHKO back with the correct move (assuming SR for Dragonite). Fun fact: Life Orb Breloom after a Swords Dance does 86.25-101.52% with Mach Punch (resisted) to standard offensive Roserade, which is an OHKO guaranteed by SR.
 

Soul Fly

IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
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With Dual Chop, Garchomp gets an extra 24% damage on any pokemon.
Wait about this. I was also going to make this cool proposition but i realized it would only deal 12% extra damage relative to the lesser power of each individual hit and NOT the net power each time dual chop strikes, so the net damage increase will still count as 12% only, not 24% cumulatively unless my math is wrong. Can someone good with mechanics verify this?
 
Wait about this. I was also going to make this cool proposition but i realized it would only deal 12% extra damage relative to the lesser power of each individual hit and NOT the net power each time dual chop strikes, so the net damage increase will still count as 12% only, not 24% cumulatively unless my math is wrong. Can someone good with mechanics verify this?
I thought it was like rough skin and actually did 12.5% extra damage every hit, so 25% in the case of dual chop? Or are you just doing 1.12x the damage like a life orb would?
 

Soul Fly

IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
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I thought it was like rough skin and actually did 12.5% extra damage every hit, so 25% in the case of dual chop? Or are you just doing 1.12x the damage like a life orb would?
No I still mean damage on individual hits, (like technician does for clarity)

Say for hypothetical purposes let's assume this Modified RS Chomper knows a Base Power 200 Physical contact move which is a 2-hit move of 100 BP each (same mechanics as DC)

Now let's take the individual damage of each move
Move 1: 100 dmg + 12.5dmg = 112.5 dmg
Move 2: 100 dmg + 12.5 dmg = 112.5 dmg

Net 2 Move Damage: 112.5+112.5 = 225 dmg

---
Now net modified damage of a single hit 200 BP move?

200 + (12.5% of 200) = 200+25 = 225 dmg

So the net damage of the move remains same regardless of the fact whether it's single hit or multi-hit.
That's what I'm trying to say. It does only 12.5% added damage (NOT 24%) to the net damage it inflicted earlier regardless of hit numbers.
 
^^So essentially Rough Skin increases the base power of physical contact moves by 1/8.

Currently what Outrage does:
252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Outrage vs. 224 HP / 32 Def Skarmory: 107-126 (32.72 - 38.53%) -- 4.57% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Outrage vs. 244 HP / 248+ Def Gliscor: 181-214 (51.42 - 60.79%) -- 48.44% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 271-319 (67.07 - 78.96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

After a 1/8 boost:
252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Outrage vs. 224 HP / 32 Def Skarmory: 120-142 (36.69 - 43.42%) -- 99.61% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Outrage vs. 244 HP / 248+ Def Gliscor: 204-241 (57.95 - 68.46%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 306-360 (75.74 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
Wait, I'm still confused. Okay, let's use the example of something using a multi-hit contact move against Rough Skin/Iron Barbs/Rocky Helmet. Each hit (such as Dual Chop against Ferrothorn) means you take 12.5% of your maximum HP per hit. So while that Dual Chop does the same amount of damage as Dragon Claw (roughly) against Ferrothorn, it's the difference between taking 12.5% "recoil" and 25% "recoil". How did you mean for that to work?
 

Halcyon.

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What? This is entirely arbitrary because that's not how Rough Skin works originally. The only way this would make sense is if each contact move automatically did 12.5% damage to the opponent (the same way it does when they hit you). The way you're doing it, it adds on damage to the move itself as a percentage of its Base Power?. That's not how Rough Skin works at all.
 

Soul Fly

IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
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That's a matter of perception. wheter it's 12.5% (1/8th) of the receiver's HP or a 12.5% boost.
Flavour wise I chose the second because A. It's based on the attacker's prerogative, and B. a relative boost like LO/CB mixes things up better (imo) than just something which acts like a pseudo-burn damage. Lots of calcs to fiddle with.

I suppose that clears up both Halcyon. and Lord of Bays's doubts. Again for the sake of clarification I'm treating it like a boost, just that it will be a form of secondary damage.
 

Halcyon.

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Fine, but that's entirely arbitrary, as I said before. You just made up an added effect to an ability that really makes no sense. Who care's if it's from the attackers perspective? It still doesn't make sense that it multiply damage by 12.5%. There's no precedent or reason for it to do that other than you wanting it to be that way. Yes, that does make it more complicated or interesting than a simple extra 12.5% of the opponent's health being taken away, but I don't get why else Rough Skin would have that effect. I really don't see how you can argue that it makes more sense to have a multiplicative boost over simply doing what it already does, but when you make contact as well.

I'm sorry if i'm coming off as rude or if it seems like a pointless argument considering this is a theorymon thread. I guess I liked the idea of it doing 12.5% to the opponent's health simply because it should work that way considering the idea behind the ability in the first place (the opponent hurts itself because they touched the rough skin/iron barbs), and the way you're presenting it just doesn't click in the same way.
 

alexwolf

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Halcyon is right. If Rough Skin deals 12.5% of the opponent's life to the opponent when he attacks why would it deal a different amount when he is attacked? Your justification for the added effect anyway, was that a Rough Skin would damage the opponent whenever he makes contact with the Pokemon which has the ability. So this would mean that Dual Chop would indeed have a 25% of the opponent's health bonus damage from Rough Skin, making Garchomp arguably overpowered. SD Garchomp doesn't have any reason to use Outrage and get locked now, so a set of SD / Dual Chop / EQ / Aqua Tail or Fire Fang would be impossible to wall and almost impossible to take a hit from at +2. Physically defensive Skarmory is taking 79% - 91% damage from Aqua Tail in rain or Fire Fang outside of rain, physically defensive Hippowdon is taking 91.6% - 104.6% from Aqua Tail, and everything else is annihilated. The CB set is terrifying as well, because as someone else mentioned, the only Pokemon that is not 2HKOed by Garchomp's STABs (Dual Chop and EQ) is physically defensive Skarmory, which is 2HKOed by Fire Fang.
 
Yeah, I'm not a fan of the boost interpretation either. I suppose it keeps it from being abused as easily on an offensive Pokemon but it makes it much more complicated. Better to have it uniform on both sides, defensive and offensive. So if it acts like a boost for the Ability holder during contact moves, it should be percentage based recoil for attacking Rough Skin, OR simply 12.5% per contact on both offense and defense.
 

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