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Theorymon Sessions
- Thread starter jake
- Start date
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You're right. As it stands, all Sturdy pokemon that can explode are far too slow to utilise this in the intended manner. The moment you get hit before you Explode (and that is very often), you'd kill yourself anyway, meaning the Sturdy mechanic would hardly make a difference.
Yes, but that means Focus Sash works in the same way...
This set would be beastly, forcing everybody to run priority or rock types to prevent a team sweep:
Electrode@Focus Sash
EVs: 252 Spd/252 Atk/4 SpA
Hasty Nature
- Explosion
- Volt Switch
- HP Ice
- Signal Beam
This set would rule the meta. Electrode could explode on almost every mon, OHKO and survive the hit thanks to sash, taking out another mon in the process. Alternatively, with the decent coverage provided by the set it could take out a weakened mon. Even better, it can Volt Switch out after the first explosion, then come in late game to stop the most threatening mon with explosion two.
This set would be beastly, forcing everybody to run priority or rock types to prevent a team sweep:
Electrode@Focus Sash
EVs: 252 Spd/252 Atk/4 SpA
Hasty Nature
- Explosion
- Volt Switch
- HP Ice
- Signal Beam
This set would rule the meta. Electrode could explode on almost every mon, OHKO and survive the hit thanks to sash, taking out another mon in the process. Alternatively, with the decent coverage provided by the set it could take out a weakened mon. Even better, it can Volt Switch out after the first explosion, then come in late game to stop the most threatening mon with explosion two.
For the record, in theory, you could try this against opposing Stealth Rock leads. While it is risky, it is still a firm possibility that you could explode as your opponent sets up Stealth Rock, use Custap Berry, and explode again. The issue with this idea is that most common Stealth Rock leads resist Explosion and would thus be hit much harder with Earthquake anyways.
The same goes for Electrode with a Sash, should this theory extend to Focus Sash as well. Sure, it could Explode against a lot of things, but it would basically have to OHKO the opposing Pokemon with Explosion and then hope to do the same again. I would imagine that this idea would bring you down to your Sash/Sturdy, so you couldn't just keep clicking Explosion over and over again.
252Atk Golem (+Atk) Explosion vs 252HP/0Def Alomomola (-Def): 79% - 93% (423 - 498 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
This was the best I could do for the purpose of this theorymon as Alomomola obviously wasn't around for DPP for me to use a DPP damage calc. Alomomola with 0 Def EV, 0 Def IVs, and a negative nature still has 4 more base defense than half of Max Def with a positive nature, but this is close enough.
With Stealth Rock on the field or a bit of previous damage, Golem's Explosion would be able to take down an Alomomola. This is obviously huge, and I would love to knock out Alomomola with such ease.
However, in spite of this, I don't feel like many of the Pokemon that are commonly used right now in the metagame would suffer too much from a reversion of Explosion's mechanics. I do think that the metagame would be effected though.
To begin with, Pokemon like Metang and Regirock would likely rise in usage due to their high Defense stats and resistance to Stealth Rock. Right now, they are great Pokemon to have on a team as is because they are good checks to common offensive threats like Jynx and Swellow. However, a return of DPP's Explosion mechanics would likely cause their usage to raise drastically.
The Pokemon that I feel would benefit the most from this would be Garbodor. Right now, the main niches of Scolipede as a Spikes user in the tier is its fantastic Speed and offensive capabilities. If Garbodor could run DPP Explosion in its arsenal, it would cause a lot more switches, giving it more chances to set up Spikes. Because of this, it would definitely allow Garbodor to rival Scolipede as an offensive Spikes stacker.
Overall, I do think the old Explosion mechanics would shake up the metagame, and I don't think that they would break it. I would love to see Explosion mechanics return, if only to see what the metagame would really look like.
The same goes for Electrode with a Sash, should this theory extend to Focus Sash as well. Sure, it could Explode against a lot of things, but it would basically have to OHKO the opposing Pokemon with Explosion and then hope to do the same again. I would imagine that this idea would bring you down to your Sash/Sturdy, so you couldn't just keep clicking Explosion over and over again.
I feel like the metagame would be pretty different if Explosion returned to its old mechanics. Pokemon such as Golem would be much more common-place on NU teams due to the sheer power that Explosion would once again have. For example, take a look at this calc.
252Atk Golem (+Atk) Explosion vs 252HP/0Def Alomomola (-Def): 79% - 93% (423 - 498 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
This was the best I could do for the purpose of this theorymon as Alomomola obviously wasn't around for DPP for me to use a DPP damage calc. Alomomola with 0 Def EV, 0 Def IVs, and a negative nature still has 4 more base defense than half of Max Def with a positive nature, but this is close enough.
With Stealth Rock on the field or a bit of previous damage, Golem's Explosion would be able to take down an Alomomola. This is obviously huge, and I would love to knock out Alomomola with such ease.
However, in spite of this, I don't feel like many of the Pokemon that are commonly used right now in the metagame would suffer too much from a reversion of Explosion's mechanics. I do think that the metagame would be effected though.
To begin with, Pokemon like Metang and Regirock would likely rise in usage due to their high Defense stats and resistance to Stealth Rock. Right now, they are great Pokemon to have on a team as is because they are good checks to common offensive threats like Jynx and Swellow. However, a return of DPP's Explosion mechanics would likely cause their usage to raise drastically.
The Pokemon that I feel would benefit the most from this would be Garbodor. Right now, the main niches of Scolipede as a Spikes user in the tier is its fantastic Speed and offensive capabilities. If Garbodor could run DPP Explosion in its arsenal, it would cause a lot more switches, giving it more chances to set up Spikes. Because of this, it would definitely allow Garbodor to rival Scolipede as an offensive Spikes stacker.
Overall, I do think the old Explosion mechanics would shake up the metagame, and I don't think that they would break it. I would love to see Explosion mechanics return, if only to see what the metagame would really look like.
I don't know that 'rule' is the right word here. Explosion misses out on a clean 1HKO against everything with better bulk than Cacturne (hell, Liepard has a good chance of surviving even with SR damage). Meanwhile, Alomomola and Tangela both take less damage from an Explosion than they can heal the next turn with Regenerator. Even taking prior damage into account is dubious, since your sash is broken by any entry hazard, and they're usually on the field by turn 2.
Taking that into account, if we assume that you're sending this guy out on turn 1, you literally cannot KO any of the top ten leads without a crit (even Primeape survives a max damage explosion with ~2%, and can outspeed the next turn).
I don't think that a physical attacker which doesn't have much chance of KOing Scolipede after SR damage could be considered too much of a threat.
My love for Serperior has been undying as of lately, and I wish it got better options to work with.
What if Serperior got Nasty Plot?
Serperior is a snake. Snakes are pretty vicious, and I feel like Serperior is a wise enough Pokemon to be able to learn it.
I don't doubt that Serperior would be a completely different Pokemon if it had access to Nasty Plot as a boosting move. To begin with, its usage would likely be much higher. People tend to forget about moves like Bulk Up and Calm Mind as they take so much longer to set up. Moves like Nasty Plot which have a generally low distribution stand out to people and are generally much harder to ignore. With Nasty Plot, Serperior would finally get the love it deserves.
Not only would Serperior probably be used more, but it would also become a much bigger threat in this metagame. While Serperior does appreciate the boost in SpDef to help make setting up even easier, due to Serperior's mediocre base 75 SpA, it would probably prefer the immediate boost in power that Nasty Plot gives it over the boost to its SpDef.
One of the really cool things about Serperior aside from its fantastic Speed stat is its ability to set up against a wide variety of defensive Pokemon. Usually, Calm Mind Serperior either Taunts or Subs against many defensive Pokemon and set up Calm Minds. The issue here is that your opponent is likely not going to stay in with a wall that can hardly scathe the snake. With Nasty Plot, this issue is much less relevant since it takes half the time to get the same offensive result that Calm Mind has to offer. This is great for Serperior because, as a typical Grass-type, its movepool has limited options for coverage--in most situations, the offensive Calm Mind set runs only Giga Drain and either HP Fire or HP Rock. Nasty Plot Serperior does not have to worry about its coverage nearly as much as what Calm Mind Serperior does. Thanks to the fast boost that Nasty Plot offers, a neutral or even resisted hit deals a sizable chunk of damage against plenty of Pokemon.
How do you guys feel Nasty Plot Serperior would fare in the current metagame?
What if Serperior got Nasty Plot?
Serperior is a snake. Snakes are pretty vicious, and I feel like Serperior is a wise enough Pokemon to be able to learn it.
I don't doubt that Serperior would be a completely different Pokemon if it had access to Nasty Plot as a boosting move. To begin with, its usage would likely be much higher. People tend to forget about moves like Bulk Up and Calm Mind as they take so much longer to set up. Moves like Nasty Plot which have a generally low distribution stand out to people and are generally much harder to ignore. With Nasty Plot, Serperior would finally get the love it deserves.
Not only would Serperior probably be used more, but it would also become a much bigger threat in this metagame. While Serperior does appreciate the boost in SpDef to help make setting up even easier, due to Serperior's mediocre base 75 SpA, it would probably prefer the immediate boost in power that Nasty Plot gives it over the boost to its SpDef.
One of the really cool things about Serperior aside from its fantastic Speed stat is its ability to set up against a wide variety of defensive Pokemon. Usually, Calm Mind Serperior either Taunts or Subs against many defensive Pokemon and set up Calm Minds. The issue here is that your opponent is likely not going to stay in with a wall that can hardly scathe the snake. With Nasty Plot, this issue is much less relevant since it takes half the time to get the same offensive result that Calm Mind has to offer. This is great for Serperior because, as a typical Grass-type, its movepool has limited options for coverage--in most situations, the offensive Calm Mind set runs only Giga Drain and either HP Fire or HP Rock. Nasty Plot Serperior does not have to worry about its coverage nearly as much as what Calm Mind Serperior does. Thanks to the fast boost that Nasty Plot offers, a neutral or even resisted hit deals a sizable chunk of damage against plenty of Pokemon.
How do you guys feel Nasty Plot Serperior would fare in the current metagame?
I was theorymonning as to what IF Focus Sash allowed you to survive an Explosion.
The end result is still the same really, due to the fact that Explosion users either don't have the speed to Explode and survive (without getting its Sash broken beforehand) while the faster Explosion users have only average power at best. Electrode is easily the worst practitioner of this because its Explosion kills very little.
Ok, this is gamebreaking:
What if Slaking got Skill Swap?
The result would be nothing short of gigantic. Slaking would be terrifying as after a skill swap, it can set up and roast anything.
The only issue is that Skill Swap isn't permanent, so phazing would see a lot more use, as would dark types(immune to skill swap) or mons that can outspeed and OHKO Slaking (if any, I don't know any as of now)
What if Slaking got Skill Swap?
The result would be nothing short of gigantic. Slaking would be terrifying as after a skill swap, it can set up and roast anything.
The only issue is that Skill Swap isn't permanent, so phazing would see a lot more use, as would dark types(immune to skill swap) or mons that can outspeed and OHKO Slaking (if any, I don't know any as of now)
uh when i posted the rules initially i even specifically mentioned "what if slaking got a different ability" as completely against them, and i (and others) have pointed out multiple times that we shouldn't discuss strictly overpowered things like weather abilities, giving slaking / regigigas alternate abilities, magic guard, etc
i guess i'll make the rules more pronounced in the OP when i have the chance to but still, you should be able to make the connection in your head that "hey wait maybe this thing i'm suggesting is far too good, what kind of discussion is even going to come out of it"
Okay I have one. What if Ursaring got Quick Attack? With significantly higher attack than Zangoose its attacks under Guts become much more powerful. With Trick Room support, and STAB priority with 130 Base Attack, Ursaring can be a scarier Zangoose. Even without TR this could come in handy for the bear. Would this make you choose Ursaring over Zangoose in some instances? Do you think Quick Feet would see less, or more use because of this? Would it become more useful in this face-paced speed-based (rhyme!) metagame? I mean, Quick Attack: 87.91 - 103.66% with Toxic Orb activated can now OHKO Jynx after SR, whereas Zangoose fell short and isn't a guaranteed OHKO. Share yo thoughts.
canno
formerly The Reptile
Speaking of Regigigas / Slaking,
What if Regigigas got Protect
Regigigas with Protect now only has to stall for 2 turns rather than 5 in theory, since it can protect on the first, third, and fifth turn. Alternatively, you only need to stall 3 turns if you don't use Protect on the first turn, which you might not want to do. Still, it is much easier to stall for 2-3 turns rather than 5. Protect also lets Regigigas scout for moves and lets it get Leftovers recovery, which is good considering it has no form of recovery outside of Drain Punch, which is weak before boosting. How would Protect Regigias affect the meta?
Alternatively:
What if Regigigas got Rest?
I was going to suggest Slack Off, but that seemed a bit TOO strong. Instead, I opted to suggest Rest. Rest is an amazing move on Regi, letting it use it's good bulk to recover health while also clearing any status on it.. It also has Sleep Talk in order to use moves while it's sleeping. However, it would suffer from Munchlax syndrome; after a Rest, it becomes a sitting duck, even with Sleep Talk (until after Slow Start of course). RestTalk allows Regi to stall out those 5 turns better imo, and could be beneficial.
Anyways, enough about Regi, let's talk about other Theorymon
Quick Attack Ursaring
Quick Attack Ursaring is actually pretty scary, hitting hard with base 130 and a potential Guts boost. However, unlike Zangoose, Ursaring has really low speed, which might be a problem, especially to bulkymon / something that can take a Quick Attack that outspeeds it. Under Trick Room, Ursaring works a lot like Conkeldurr without the bulk. It has a strong-ass STAB move, a STAB priority move to out priority other priority moves, and good coverage. It also has OK bulk, 90/75/75 isn't completely horrible. Sadly, it's low speed in such a speedy meta means that Zangoose will more than likely be chosen over the bear despite its power. KOing Jynx is nice though.
What if Regigigas got Protect
Regigigas with Protect now only has to stall for 2 turns rather than 5 in theory, since it can protect on the first, third, and fifth turn. Alternatively, you only need to stall 3 turns if you don't use Protect on the first turn, which you might not want to do. Still, it is much easier to stall for 2-3 turns rather than 5. Protect also lets Regigigas scout for moves and lets it get Leftovers recovery, which is good considering it has no form of recovery outside of Drain Punch, which is weak before boosting. How would Protect Regigias affect the meta?
Alternatively:
What if Regigigas got Rest?
I was going to suggest Slack Off, but that seemed a bit TOO strong. Instead, I opted to suggest Rest. Rest is an amazing move on Regi, letting it use it's good bulk to recover health while also clearing any status on it.. It also has Sleep Talk in order to use moves while it's sleeping. However, it would suffer from Munchlax syndrome; after a Rest, it becomes a sitting duck, even with Sleep Talk (until after Slow Start of course). RestTalk allows Regi to stall out those 5 turns better imo, and could be beneficial.
Anyways, enough about Regi, let's talk about other Theorymon
Quick Attack Ursaring
Quick Attack Ursaring is actually pretty scary, hitting hard with base 130 and a potential Guts boost. However, unlike Zangoose, Ursaring has really low speed, which might be a problem, especially to bulkymon / something that can take a Quick Attack that outspeeds it. Under Trick Room, Ursaring works a lot like Conkeldurr without the bulk. It has a strong-ass STAB move, a STAB priority move to out priority other priority moves, and good coverage. It also has OK bulk, 90/75/75 isn't completely horrible. Sadly, it's low speed in such a speedy meta means that Zangoose will more than likely be chosen over the bear despite its power. KOing Jynx is nice though.
I would think certain abilities would be fine for Slaking, the lazy pokemon having slow start would certainly fit its description and it wouldn't be too much more powerful the only real difference is it'd abuse protect instead of fearing it.
What if mummy's effect was permanent ie: didn't fade after being switched out, that would certainly make Scizor weakened while also not being too major a shift for most of the other pokes in the meta since most of them use non-contact or fighting type moves that wouldn't effect Cofagrigus anyway, although it might make bulls eye a valid item
What if mummy's effect was permanent ie: didn't fade after being switched out, that would certainly make Scizor weakened while also not being too major a shift for most of the other pokes in the meta since most of them use non-contact or fighting type moves that wouldn't effect Cofagrigus anyway, although it might make bulls eye a valid item
this thread is strictly for NU; scizor / cofagrigus / mummy are all irrelevant because they are OU and UU respectively and nobody uses yamask
i also updated the OP and made the rules much more prominent. i need to update it with all of the recent theorymonning, but that's a chore i'll take up later
Here's an interesting one: What if Slaking and Regigigas had their abilities swapped?
Mind you, they're still hindered, but they would be able to adapt much more effectively given their movepools. Slaking can utilize his massive bulk, as well as access to Protect and Slack Off, to easily stall out the 5 turns. His bulk is so massive Slaking can afford to run miminal defensive EV investment for all out power and speed to ready itself for the ensuing rampage, though Slaking suffers from 4MSS and stunted attack and speed, making him susceptible to status and powerful special attacks. Regigigas might still not be able to work with Truant too well, but it at the very least can run Choice sets now, something it could not pull off before.
What are your thoughts on this change?
Mind you, they're still hindered, but they would be able to adapt much more effectively given their movepools. Slaking can utilize his massive bulk, as well as access to Protect and Slack Off, to easily stall out the 5 turns. His bulk is so massive Slaking can afford to run miminal defensive EV investment for all out power and speed to ready itself for the ensuing rampage, though Slaking suffers from 4MSS and stunted attack and speed, making him susceptible to status and powerful special attacks. Regigigas might still not be able to work with Truant too well, but it at the very least can run Choice sets now, something it could not pull off before.
What are your thoughts on this change?
What if Slaking and Regigigas had their abilities swapped?
Slaking would become an obvious monster. Protect and Slack Off to stall, Return and a coverage move to wreck stuff, but it is ridiculously vulnerable to Trick.
Regigigas will still be useless bar some Choice Band set I think because Truant is the worst ability in the game. Gurdurr also walls anything Regigigas can do even when Banded. Lol.
Slaking would become an obvious monster. Protect and Slack Off to stall, Return and a coverage move to wreck stuff, but it is ridiculously vulnerable to Trick.
Regigigas will still be useless bar some Choice Band set I think because Truant is the worst ability in the game. Gurdurr also walls anything Regigigas can do even when Banded. Lol.
I don't think Slaking would be that good because it's still extremely vulnerable to status. Anything with decent bulk could come in and burn it. If you want to run Substitute to dodge status, then you have to sacrifice coverage, recovery, or Protect for stalling. Either way, Misdreavous would just destroy Slaking, unless it's running Sub Protect Slack Off Night Slash lol, but that's stupid. Additionally, Slaking is pretty big setup fodder. Anything with Bulk Up or Coil just goes to town.
That's just what Norman wants you to do. Remember that Facade doubles in power when the user is afflicted by a status. It still deals 75% of the damage of standard Return, which from Slaking is no laughing matter. And if Slaking is poisoned by toxic spikes or paralyzed...
252+ Atk Choice Band Slaking Facade vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Lickilicky: 457-538 (107.78 - 126.88%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Slaking Facade vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Vileplume: 366-432 (103.38 - 122.03%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Slaking Facade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 280-330 (83.83 - 98.8%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Slaking Facade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 364-430 (68.16 - 80.52%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Of course, Misdreavus still walls it to hell and back. UNLESS.
1. Rest
2. Sleep Talk
3. Return/Facade
4. Night Slash
Hold a Life Orb. Now, Slaking gets to rest to heal. He gets to use Facade while asleep. Bring your own status and recovery all in one. Break walls with your own wall. Sure, the first five turns out, Slaking isn't gonna do much. But after that, there's gonna be some hell unleashed in the jungle.
Slow Start Slaking actually makes a whole lot of sense. It's definitely more useable than Regigigas while not being flat-out broken. I could see it possibly moving up to RU if it proved too dominating, but it still wouldn't be OU or even UU material in my mind.
What if Dusknoir dropped down to NU?
After the inevitable Dusclops drop to RU, Dusknoir will once again be outclassed. What would rise and fall in usage if Dusknoir dropped down?
What if Sawk and/or Primeape received Mach Punch?
Other than being a fuck you to Gurrdurr, this means that a choice scarf set is no longer required for these 2, as Priority is huge in NU. What would happen if one or both of these 2 got Mach Punch?
After the inevitable Dusclops drop to RU, Dusknoir will once again be outclassed. What would rise and fall in usage if Dusknoir dropped down?
What if Sawk and/or Primeape received Mach Punch?
Other than being a fuck you to Gurrdurr, this means that a choice scarf set is no longer required for these 2, as Priority is huge in NU. What would happen if one or both of these 2 got Mach Punch?
Dusknoir? Honestly, it's not that much better than Misdreavus defensively. It's worse on the special side. I would say that Misdreavus would fall in usage, just because people would occasionally be using Dusknoir for practically the same role.
Well, we already discussed Sawk getting it earlier. As for Primeape, I don't think it would make a huge difference. It won't be doing a whole lot of damage coming from a scarf set, and I don't think that locking oneself into a 40-power move is usually optimal. (Primeape is usually fast enough with a scarf to go first in the priority +0 speed tier.) It could come in handy, but I can see Life Orb sets becoming more popular so that Primeape could still U-Turn out of whatever switches in to eat the Mach Punch.
Choice Band Sawk sets would love having Mach Punch. There are still a few issues with it. First off, it is pretty much checked by the same old Pokemon. Probably more importantly though is that Sawk would have to drop either Stone Edge or Ice Punch. This isn't _that_ big of a deal I suppose (I rarely click Stone Edge with Sawk as a resisted Close Combat does almost the same amount as a neutral Edge), but you do lose out on super effective coverage against Bugs. The benefits still probably outweigh the consequences though. And you can even run Life Orb to a greater effect with Mach Punch.
Dusknoir doesn't really seem that impressive to me. It's a lot slower so it's more vulnerable to status, it can't heal status like Misdreavus so Toxic will wear it down eventually, and it can't boost. Its main advantages are probably Leftovers, Shadow Sneak and Earthquake.
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