Theorymon Sessions

[Farobi]

What if Jynx did not receive Lovely Kiss

Still a threat, for sure. But with no sleep-inducing moves, will she still run rampant in the tier? Or fall down in grace? Personally, I believe that Choice Scarf Jynx will be much more common as opposed to Life Orb sets because there aren't much replacements for Lovely Kiss on those sets (maybe Substitute?).

Yeah, sorry for short response, just busy atm :/, but I do want you guys to answer this if you can!!!

 

[skylight]

Might reply to the other one later.

What if Jynx did not receive Lovely Kiss

Still a threat, for sure. But with no sleep-inducing moves, will she still run rampant in the tier? Or fall down in grace? Personally, I believe that Choice Scarf Jynx will be much more common as opposed to Life Orb sets because there aren't much replacements for Lovely Kiss on those sets (maybe Substitute?).

Yeah, sorry for short response, just busy atm :/, but I do want you guys to answer this if you can!!!

I've been using Sub/NP/Ice Beam/Psychic and it works p good even without Lovely Kiss. With that said it works like SubCM Gardy in a way (except faster and with dual STAB), and I think it could be used overall, but for the most part people would stick to the Scarf set as people would rather speed over a slow (safe?) set up.

Also, I don't think Jynx would get complained about as much because the Scarf set is a lot easier to deal with in a metagame with loads of priority, however it's still good - but the fact that picking Jynx's set when facing it is easier would make people reconsider its usage. On the other hand, things like Metang wouldn't need to consider Sleep Talk and would just be straight out counters.

 

[watashi]

jynx would be a lot easier since metang would become a hard counter to it while other bulky pokemon would be viable choices to handle it since most can survive a hit a ohko back. the choice scarf set is still really good and i don't think it would take away from that a lot since i never used lovely kiss on that anyways. i don't think jynx would "fall from grace" since it would still be one of the top offensive threats in the tier, but it would certainly not be a suspect anymore.

 

[Jajub123]

Jynx would be a ton easier considering that it'll be way harder to set up with it. It'll almost never get a "free turn" to set up. That'll only happen gonna switch or if it uses sub on anpredicted status move. Jynx will still be a top tier threat but it'll just be a lot easier to counter. That being said many more things can beat Jynx such as Lickilicky and. Miltank. Even since that Miltank is a more definite threat considering it has Thick Fat and great speed. Also things like Metang can wall Jynx end to back (as Flcl pointed out) if Jynx lost Lovely Kiss and atang will definitely rise in usage. All in all I feel that Jynx will still be a top tier threat just not as effective.

Edit: I forgot to point one more thing out. Choice sets will probably become more common and Jynx's main role will probably become a revenge killer/offensives pivot with a CS (also as Flcl pointed out lol).

 

[Punchshroom]

The way I see it, Jynx without Lovely Kiss would be theoretically akin to 'if Sheer Force did not negate LO recoil'. Well who cares really because that kind of damage is still crazy powerful, and in a similiar vein Jynx already has a lot going for her: strong STABs, powerful Sp.Atk, high speed, good coverage and a good ability. The sleep move is a crazy good bonus, but a bonus nonetheless. It isn't mandatory for Jynx to succeed, it just deprives Jynx of a good "f**k you" sign to anything in general, like the Sheer Forcers' free, stronger than Choice items, boost. Jynx is good already, she can certainly make do without Lovely Kiss, seeing by how badly she stole former S-Rank Gardevoir's spotlight.

 

[Jajub123]

Yeah as Punchshroom pointed out Lovely Kiss was a bonus to Jynx but that "bonus" is what's made her so amazing. She still hits like a truck it's just that so many more. Counters would arise and she would require a bit more teamsupport to be effective. Gardevoir may make a comeback though. With choice sets probably becoming more used Gardevoir can become a more supportive option.

 

[Nozzle]

What if Victreebel got Quiver Dance

Idk. We have seen weirder move distributions. It can quiver i guess.

One of Victreebel's main flaws is it lack of speed and it really appreciates the speed boost. It doesn't hate the SpAtk boost ether. It doesn't really give much about the SpD boost but w/e. A set will probably look like this:

Victreebel @ Life Orb
Trait: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spe / 4 Def
Timid Nature
- Sleep Powder/Hidden power Rock/Fire
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Quiver Dance

 

[Explorer]

What if Victreebel got Quiver Dance?

This is interesting as Victreebel would now have a setup move outside of sun, which is sometimes difficult to set up and easy to predict in team preview (i.e. lots of Grass and Fire-type Pokemon, almost always Victreebel, Sawsbuck, and/or Charizard). Still even at +1 Speed Victreebel is slower than Victreebel with Chlorophyll under sunlight. And since Victreebel wouldn't need sun, Choice Scarf Pokemon could still catch in and KO it from the physical side, especially Flying-types. It really depends how people in general feel how easy or hard it is to maintain sun in NU, and that will affect the popularity of QD Victreebel.

*Also, Nozzle, on your set above, I would put HP Rock before HP Fire since it covers more of Victreebel's own weaknesses, and then pair up Victreebel with something such as Charizard or Throh to compensate for the lack of coverage that HP Fire provides (mostly against Steel-types).

My next theorymon will be inspired by the discussion of Sawk running everywhere.

What if Sawk got Agility?

Sawk, at least in the anime, is a very agile Pokemon with great power. However, in the games, its speed is only so-so without a Choice Scarf, and Agility fixes that in one turn, with the freedom to switch moves after the boost. And really, Close Combat, Stone Edge, and Ice Punch provide it with a ton of coverage alone, even without a fourth attacking move. Plus Sawk could more safely run an Adamant nature without losing as many speed ties. Chances are the CS set would still be relatively popular since it requires no set-up, but this set would give it some competition!

 

[Jajub123]

In response to if Victreebell got QD I think that it could be very usefully for Victreebell and could potentially turn it into a topntier threat. Bell would require less team support and would overall become much more effective.

As for Agility Sawk Sawk could become very potent. Sawk's speed would become insane and could sweep large portions of the other team. A LO set with Sawk would likely become more popular as it has the benifits of a CS set and can change moves.

 

[Explorer]

For reference, I will formally post the set I was thinking of for Agility Sawk:

Sawk (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe
Nature: Adamant
-Agility
-Close Combat
-Ice Punch/Thunderpunch
-Stone Edge/Earthquake

Sawk outspeeds most, if not all CS Pokemon after an Agility boost, and the Base 125 Attack makes that even more terrifying.

What if Simisage received Sap Sipper?

This would be interesting with Simisage's coverage options, giving it another welcome toy. Simisage is now immune to Sleep Powder, Stun Spore, and Spore, and now Giga Drain, Leaf Storm, Leaf Blade, etc. all give it a free attack boost. Here is one set:

Simisage (M) @ Salac Berry
Trait: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 Atk/4 Def/252 Spe
Nature: Jolly/Adamant
-Substitute
-Seed Bomb
-Rock Slide
-Brick Break/Acrobatics

This hits pretty hard at +1 Attack, and can easily get +1 Speed on an opponent that it outspeeds (most of unboosted NU). The EVs maximize attacking power and speed while requiring only 3 Substitutes to get into Salac range. Seed Bomb is Simisage's STAB of choice since it didn't get Leaf Blade or Wood Hammer (Torterra laughs). Rock Slide covers four of Simisage's five weaknesses, and has a flinch chance. Brick Break gets excellent coverage with the other two moves, and most importantly, lets Simisage hit Steel-types such as Lairon very hard, especially at +1. Alternatively, Acrobatics hits Fighting-types such as Sawk very hard after getting into Salac range (at +1 Simisage outspeeds Scarf Sawk too), as well as giving Simisage an edge over its competitor, RP Torterra.

If this were to come to reality one day, I see one core being a possibility. The first part will be Simisage with the set above, and here is the other piece:

Seismitoad (F) @ Life Orb/Damp Rock
Trait: Swift Swim
EVs: 4 HP/252 SpA/252 Spe
Nature: Modest
-Rain Dance
-Hydro Pump
-Earth Power
-Sludge Wave/Focus Blast

Seismitoad synergizes very well with Simisage, with no common type weaknesses between them. Seismitoad is a great, bulky sweeper under Rain, blasting past the Steel-types that wall Simisage, while taking away its Fire weakness. Between these two Pokemon, much of NU is hit super-effectively, and a +2 Seismitoad and +1 Simisage will be outspending almost everything else in sight. The powerful dual STABs are a welcome gift.

*A third member, such as SD Beartic, LO Ampharos, or Skuntank could be added to this core as well with the needed coverage moves.

However, despite Simisage's new potential as a cleaner, if you want brute physical power from a Grass-type, you are probably still better off with SD Sawsbuck or RP Torterra.

 

[Axa]

What if the elemental monkeys recieved Flash Fire, Storm Drain and Sap Sipper, respectively?

While Rapidash does exist in NU, it tends to be more physical and reliant on its excellent physical coverage. Nasty Plot Simisear can release immensely powerful Fire Blasts and can switch in on Will-O-Wisps as well.

Simipour would be great with all the Water-types running around, and Storm Drain's Sp. Attack boost would make it threatening enough even without Nasty Plot.

Simisage would have the worst kind of boost, but an immunity to Leech Seeds and powders is great enough as it is.

Just gonna repost this since it got lost on the last page too.

 

[Jajub123]

In response to if Simisage got SS I personally don't think it wiill really improve how good it is overall. A physical set is by far outclassed by Sawsbuck (<3 Sawsbuck). A special set could be useful to create an immunity to Powders and whatnot but overall the Attain boost is really harming it. Something like Liepard could come and threaten it. Overall I just wish Simisage had a better ability and Sap Sipped could s/w help that.

 

[bobbyvaporeon]

What if Garbodor got Slack Off?
Instant Healing would help Garbodor immensely. It could use Rocky Helmet Better, and overall be a much better Spiker.

 

[Kentucky Fried Colonel]

What if Bibarel got Extremespeed?

It would probably be much more widely used as nearly every pokemon that gets espeed is (lol espeed togekiss) I would also alleviate it's only downside to it's simple curse.

What if Musharna got Wish?
This is the only thing missing from Mushy's arsenal that would make it not only one of the best support in NU, but in possibly the upper tiers as well. A fighting resist along with more reliable healing makes it a massive threat, and would likely break stall with Alomolola and musharna wish passing core, meaning if you're semi compotent, you can keep your team alive for a long while. Also, when paired with synchronize, you can toxic stall something without being forced to carry toxic. Just think of the glorious stall teas that could come from this.

 

[M BLADE]

Oh please, i posted it by accident. I was going to edit with some content...
Oh who cares

What if Muk got both Coil and Recover?

Okay, Coil is almost no different than Curse, but you can use it in conjuction with Gunk Shot for some nasty results.
Recover lets you stay longer, working with almost every set, even a LO one, since Muk is bulky enough to take hits. Muk is also immune to Toxic AND Trick, and it's slow anyways, meaning only Will-o-Wisp is really a threat (unless i'm missing something), which is a good bonus for a boosting tank.

There you go. Now put my post back, or i kill ya for gud

 

[vilepersian]

What if Persian could learn Aqua Tail or Surf/Scald?

If Persian could learn aqua tail, a physically attacking Persian with fake out + return + bite + aqua tail could hit at least neutrally all pokemon. As of now it has no physical attacks that can hurt a steel type except dig which lets the opponent switch out.

It can learn iron tail, and many normal pokemon can learn aqua tail. So learning it would make sense.

I think if it could learn that move it would be a very obvious moveset, also, two of the most used steel pokemon in nu (probo and bastio) are part rock.


If Persian could learn Surf or Scald it would be possible to use a special Persian with limber for ability instead of technician. The moveset would be Nasty Plot + Hyper Voice + thunderbolt + Surf or Scald.


I have a question. If Persian could learn quick attack (it would get technician boost) or extreme speed. Would it be possible for persian to hit 3 times in a row against very slow opponents? (fake out + return + quick attack/extreme speed)

 

[atomicllamas]

What if Persian could learn Aqua Tail or Surf/Scald?

If Persian could learn aqua tail, a physically attacking Persian with fake out + return + bite + aqua tail could hit at least neutrally all pokemon. As of now it has no physical attacks that can hurt a steel type except dig which lets the opponent switch out.

It can learn iron tail, and many normal pokemon can learn aqua tail. So learning it would make sense.

I think if it could learn that move it would be a very obvious moveset, also, two of the most used steel pokemon in nu (probo and bastio) are part rock.


If Persian could learn Surf or Scald it would be possible to use a special Persian with limber for ability instead of technician. The moveset would be Nasty Plot + Hyper Voice + thunderbolt + Surf or Scald.


I have a question. If Persian could learn quick attack (it would get technician boost) or extreme speed. Would it be possible for persian to hit 3 times in a row against very slow opponents? (fake out + return + quick attack/extreme speed)

Aqua tail would help the physical set, but it is still completely outclassed by Kangaskhan who can hit everything harder. Technician Water Pulse still hits harder than scald or surf, and the confusion chance is better.

As for the final question, no it would go fake out, return, opposing pokes move, quick attack/extreme speed.

 

[Jajub123]

What if Persian could learn Aqua Tail or Surf/Scald?

If Persian could learn aqua tail, a physically attacking Persian with fake out + return + bite + aqua tail could hit at least neutrally all pokemon. As of now it has no physical attacks that can hurt a steel type except dig which lets the opponent switch out.

It can learn iron tail, and many normal pokemon can learn aqua tail. So learning it would make sense.

I think if it could learn that move it would be a very obvious moveset, also, two of the most used steel pokemon in nu (probo and bastio) are part rock.


If Persian could learn Surf or Scald it would be possible to use a special Persian with limber for ability instead of technician. The moveset would be Nasty Plot + Hyper Voice + thunderbolt + Surf or Scald.


I have a question. If Persian could learn quick attack (it would get technician boost) or extreme speed. Would it be possible for persian to hit 3 times in a row against very slow opponents? (fake out + return + quick attack/extreme speed)

Like the previous response, I personally think that it wouldn't really make Persian that much better. Persian is already outclassed by Kangaskhan in terms of a physical attacking set, but Persian's main niche is a special attacking set with NP. It wouldn't make Persian that much better, but I guess it would make a physical set more viable.

Also, regarding you last question, no it couldn't:

Persian uses Fake Out! (1)
The opponent's ____ flinched!
Persian used Return! (2)
The opponent's ____ used ____! As you can tell the opponent attacked right here, so no, Persian can't attack 3 times in a row (unless it was holding King's Rock).

 

[Othesemo]

What if Klang got Earthquake?

Talk of Klingklang possibly dropping has got me thinking about its pre-evo already in NU. This isn't that much of a stretch, considering how many pokemon get earthquake already, but it would be an enormous help to the gear thing. Offensively, earthquake hits 3 of steel's four resists super effectively, and hits neutrally against the last. As such, Klang could afford to run only two attacks, while still hitting everything in tier neutrally, save flyers/levitate users with resisting secondary types (charizard, mantine, etcetera). Oh, and Ludicolo. If you don't want substitute, running Return or Wild Charge alongside Gear Grind and Earthquake has perfect coverage in the NU tier, bar shedinja.

While perhaps not quite enough to shoot Klang into the top ten, I imagine that the increased coverage would be an enormous help to it.

 

[Jajub123]

What if Klang got Earthquake?

Talk of Klingklang possibly dropping has got me thinking about its pre-evo already in NU. This isn't that much of a stretch, considering how many pokemon get earthquake already, but it would be an enormous help to the gear thing. Offensively, earthquake hits 3 of steel's four resists super effectively, and hits neutrally against the last. As such, Klang could afford to run only two attacks, while still hitting everything in tier neutrally, save flyers/levitate users with resisting secondary types (charizard, mantine, etcetera). Oh, and Ludicolo. If you don't want substitute, running Return or Wild Charge alongside Gear Grind and Earthquake has perfect coverage in the NU tier, bar shedinja.

While perhaps not quite enough to shoot Klang into the top ten, I imagine that the increased coverage would be an enormous help to it.

Well, yeah, Klang's most fatal flaw is its lack of coverage. If it got Earthquake, Klang would definitely be a more viable choice. The main reason why Klang should be used is the fact that it receives Shift Gear, an awesome boosting move, turning Klang into a deadly sweeper after about 2+ boosts. In addition to this, Klang has surprising natural bulk (boosted even further with Eviolite!) in which it can easily take a few hits. Klang is the definition of a set-up-sweeper; however, Klang's coverage mitigates its sweeping potential. But, with Earthquake, Klang would become a great choice overall and would definitely become more viable. Also, Klang would probably rise in usage. What sets Klang apart is its boosting, and extra coverage would make it very dangerous.

 

[Explorer]

Let's talk tier shifts.

What if Alomamola went to RU?

HO teams would be on the rise yet again, as the top physical wall of NU has been removed from NU's system. In particular, Pokemon such as Kangashkan, Arbok, Muk, and physical Charizard could reign. It also gives Scolipede an easier time since Regenerator and Wish neuter its hazards. Sawk wouldn't have to try to break through it, either. So what do you think of this change?

 

[Ashley11]

In response to what if alomomola rises to ru i hopeit doesn't happen ;_;. Anyways golurk would be even better than it already is and honestly all physical attackers in general would benefit. I don't think it would make the meta that much more offensive. It could make some other bulky water rise to fill its shoes by chance or maybe even tangela will be used more as a prime physical wall. We will probably see pretty soon though if you know what I mean.

 

[Giroud]

If Alomamola went RU NU would go crazy offensive. Psyhical attackers like Primeape and Sawk would run NU more than they already do and there would be a massive rise in wall variants of Golurk. Maybe mons like Eviolite Gurrdurr would also become incredibly effective and Floatzel would finally see the usage is deserves.

 

[Nozzle]

I agree.
Scolipede, Swellow, Braviary, Samurott, Sawk etc will run rampant.
Main physical walls will be Weezing, Misdreavus, Golbat, Gurdurr and Tangela.
(Notice that most of these walls are outright beat by some of the afromentioned sweepers)
I have the feel that to combat this Special Attack Spam will be dominating too.

 

[Ashley11]

Yeah the strong birds especially like braviary will be great because hardly anything will be able to take a hit from it now if it has superpower. Those walls can't take a braviary's brave bird