This Team Is Kind Of A Big Deal

Introduction



Howdy, and welcome to my RMT of what is probably my most successful DP team. It was originally created for use in the Superstar Tournament Playoffs, although I had a few variations of the team (most of which used Venusaur over Shaymin). It's also the team I used in ST6, where I lost to dachickens in round two (screw Seed Flare). Kinneas also used the team in ST6 and went on to reach the semi-finals. Since then, we've both used the team in various battles, some for tournaments, some just for fun, but it's always been pretty consistent. I recently used it against panamaxis in Fabbles' tournament. With Salamence on its way to Ubers, I'll probably be retiring the team, though suggestions for revamping wouldn't go amiss!

This team is pretty much perfect for my playstyle, which tends to rely on 'prediction' and lots of double switching. The team is designed to get a solid lead, and then control the game and scout with a Water/Grass/Fire core, using Salamence to punch holes through teams thereafter. Jirachi is the glue of the team, stopping those annoying last set up Pokemon.

Team


Starmie @ Life Orb ** Parabolica
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Surf
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Rapid Spin

Starmie is one of those Pokemon that goes in and out of phase, depending on the state of the metagame. It's never really been "the best" lead, but it's always been up there near the top. It fits the team so perfectly, forcing switches throughout the game. Recently, Machamp's previous upsurge as a lead has died down, which makes things a lot easier for me, especially as a lot of people have moved over to Heatran, which gives me a 'free' attack on the blatant switch, where I tend to use Thunderbolt. Starmie damages Swampert nicely which helps Heatran, and it also beats Metagross. I tend not to stay in on Azelf any more due to the rise in Choice Banded U-turns, but I'm not too worried about facing Azelf anyway.

Thunderbolt and Ice Beam pair up to form that amazing BoltBeam combo, which screws over so many teams alone. Starmie's superb Speed means that it can come in throughout the game on weaker hits and just force pressure on the opponent, making them go on the defensive, furthermore allowing me to get my core going and make things happen at my pace. Barring the start, Starmie often won't be seen against bulky offense teams until the end of the game where things have less than 50% HP, where it can clean up with its superb Speed. That Speed also gives me a get out clause if I don't want Vaporeon to take additional damage against say, Infernape - I can just use Starmie to take it on.

A well timed Rapid Spin tends to lead to the downfall of stall teams, after taking their Spiker out with whatever else. Nothing on stall likes facing Starmie barring Blissey, which eats a Rapid Spin nevertheless. Blissey is the only Pokemon on stall which also likes to take Shaymin's hits to be honest, and as soon as Blissey plays defensively I can switch to Starmie and start sapping HP, forcing switches to stop their Spin blocker from blocking me any more.
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Vaporeon (M) @ Leftovers ** Mergulho
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 216 Def / 60 SpA / 232 SpD
Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Wish
- Protect
- Surf
- Hidden Power [Electric]

Vaporeon is another Pokemon I've fell in love with as I've used the team more and more, and is part one of my typical Water/Grass/Fire core that is so sturdy. Vaporeon's moveset is standard really, allowing it to take on Gyarados, Heatran, and so forth with ease. Wish is utterly vital to the core, which relies on sponging hits. Mispredicts are bound to happen now and then, but often I can use Wish as my escape route.

The only thing out of the ordinary here is the fact that I run Special Defense EVs on Vaporeon. I've spoken with many friends about this already and advised the same, because it is just godly. On the physical side, I mainly use Vaporeon as a stop to Gyarados, which it tends to do with or without the HP EVs (Hidden Power [Electric] OHKOes after Stealth Rock and Life Orb). I prefer running Special Defense as it allows me to somewhat sponge Starmie and Gengar's hits, which is really valuable as both are large special threats. Life Orb Gengar almost always fails to KO after Stealth with Shadow Ball & Thunderbolt (thanks to Protect). Starmie's Timid Life Orb Thunderbolt only does 55.4% max, which means I can normally beat it with ease if it doesn't have Recover - even moreso if I manage to come in on a Surf/Ice Beam. The Special Defense also helps take Specs Heatran's hits.
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Shaymin @ Leftovers ** Rascasse
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 68 SpA / 188 Spe
Timid nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Seed Flare
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Part II of the core. Even with no "reliable" recovery, Shaymin always seems to hover around 70% health. Leech Seed and Protect is such a great combination, especially when paired with Leftovers. The ability to absorb strong Electric- and Water-type attacks aimed at Vaporeon and Heatran is a must, and Leech Seed keeps the core topped up just enough that it becomes ridiculously hard to break through. Protect helps aid prediction, stopping potential mistakes, and also catching stuff using Trick. Because of Seed Flare's low PP, I tend to use Leech Seed if I know I'm not under threat, even if I used it in the previous turn. Conserving Seed Flare's PP is vital for facing Suicune, but it is often worthwhile to just fire off a Seed Flare after using Leech Seed in rapid succession, often catching something unaware. Shaymin is easily able to scout Blissey courtesy of Natural Cure and Leech Seed, which allows me to then work out what it can and can't do to my team.

Hidden Power [Fire] is cool for Jirachi, as Leech Seed damage paired with it will force it to use Wish relatively regular. It's mostly for Scizor, but it's definitely worth using Protect first against Scizor to act as though you are lacking it. I always try to feign not having it against Skarmory / Forretress at least once too, because getting the chance to weaken them is often half the battle, and it sucks if they are just scouting for Hidden Power [Fire].

The EVs allow me to hit 310 Speed (for Pokemon around the 307-309 range attempting to beat Lucario), while maxing HP for durability. The Special Attack allows me to always OHKO 252 HP / 0 SpD Scizor after Stealth Rock and Leech Seed/Leech Seed and Protect.
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Heatran (M) @ Shuca Berry ** Eau Rouge
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest nature (+SpA, -Atk)
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Stealth Rock
- Explosion

Heatran is such a trooper. If you're gonna use this kind of Heatran, you need to know that it's all about feigning. Getting Stealth Rock up is easy enough, because Heatran scares off so many Pokemon immediately that you just get a free turn. From there on in, I tend to just consistently use Heatran in tandem with Vaporeon / Shaymin to keep at high HP, also threatening Explosion throughout the game. Leech Seeding Blissey and going to Heatran is awesome, because I can then just use Fire Blast / Earth Power to smack a switch-in hard. If it stays in, so what? It's not like it's really doing anything to me. Eventually, late game, I may Explode, such as when I'm facing an Outrage-locked Salamence. But for the majority of the game I like to just threaten it. The amount of Rotom-A expecting Explosion that I have caught with Fire Blast is just insane, which makes life easier for my team.

I chose Modest over Timid because, besides Gyarados and Heatran (both of whom my team copes extremely well with), I'm not really missing anything. The extra power doesn't really secure KOes after Stealth Rock or whatever, but it is pretty handy when I know I've got that extra "surprise" 10% to boot. If I were to run Timid, it would be for Jolly Breloom, but it hasn't been as handy so far so I'll skip! I'd also rather have the extra defensive ability over the extra power that Explosion gives, because I'm mostly using it when things are weakened and it doesn't matter anyway. Shuca is the chosen item as it means I can feign Choice items until I have Stealth Rock down, and it helps in general if I make a bad prediction, or alternatively it may give me that chance to Explode.
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Jirachi @ Choice Scarf ** Becketts
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly nature (+Spe, -SpA)
- Iron Head
- Fire Punch
- Trick
- Ice Punch

This little gem is the glue of the team. It somewhat handles DDMence, but also helps against bulky offense teams where I can use its typing to come in and start firing off weak but annoying attacks. I like using Fire Punch if I'm not in danger just in case of a Magnezone switch, and it does quite a lot of damage which is pretty cool!

The main use of Jirachi is to check faster sweepers (Gengar, Sceptile, etc.) throughout the game, and utilize Trick at the end of the game to stop any gameplan which may otherwise stop me. A lot of my team resist Jirachi's weaknesses (4 Fire resists, 2 Ground resists on my team), which allows me to lock the opposing last Pokemon into a specific move and then use my other Pokemon to finish it off. It's a great way to stop say, an Infernape sweep on my weakened team where Starmie and/or Salamence have fainted. Trick is a good way of annoying stall, as it tends to allow me to cripple Rotom-A or Skarmory, which is great because the former is then easy to wall, and the latter will have trouble stopping Skarmory.
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Salamence (M) @ Life Orb ** 130R
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive nature (+Spe, -SpD)
- Draco Meteor
- Roost
- Flamethrower
- Brick Break

Using Salamence is a tricky job, it needs to be timed to perfection. Scouting with my core allows me to work out when exactly I need to bring in Salamence and hit crazy hard with whatever move I feel like using. If I am forced to bring out Salamence early game then I tend to like using Brick Break, because people always seem to switch in Scarf Tyranitar for whatever reason.

Roost buys Salamence time against stall, which is important if Starmie has been unable to Spin. I don't really miss Outrage as I never used it because I hate locking myself in, and Brick Break tended to give me a fine form of physical offense. Naive is necessary over Hasty because of Swords Dance Lucario, which otherwise would do too much damage with ExtremeSpeed.

Obviously, since Salamence is packing his bags to Ubers, I will be looking for a replacement. I considered Infernape (Close Combat / Mach Punch / ThunderPunch / Fire Blast), but another Ground weakness is horrible. If you have any ideas, please post!
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In Action

As I've said a few times now, the team relies on the Water / Grass / Fire core, which makes things swim along nicely. The core has a nice balance of offense and defense, being able to feign items and moves too, while it still able to keep high HP. The whole strategy is to literally just sit around with the core and stay one step ahead to try and gain as much information about the opposing team as possible whilst reducing the information given myself. When I feel like I can get no more information about the opposing team through the core's feigning and defensive play forcing the opponent to adapt, I carefully start to bring in Salamence to play, and start punching holes in the opposing team. Jirachi and Starmie just keep things swimming along nicely. Almost all the team is bulky enough that I can survive and still win a game with one or two mispredicts.

Against stall it's a bit different, because if it's obviously a stall team then I can just adapt quickly. Luring out Blissey and scouting its set with Shaymin is the top priority, as it allows me to figure out whether I can bring in Heatran and threaten Explosion safely. Keeping my Hidden Power [Fire] for the right moment is vital due to opposing Spikers often being Skarmory / Forretress, as is finding out how much damage I can cause with Salamence. A well timed prediction or two normally brings down stall which tends lacks the ability to break through my core quickly enough before I do eventually hit a correct prediction. A well timed Rapid Spin (getting Starmie in via Wish or Leech Seed) means it's often gg for stall, especially if I've caught a Rotom-A with Fire Blast which is a pretty common scenario!

I do however, have a couple of weaknesses. My largest weakness is to Raikou, who, if it has Substitute, is likely to win provided it is played well. I can normally beat out other Raikou with Shaymin and smart playing, potentially sacrificing Jirachi. My other main two weaknesses are Machamp and Tyranitar. Machamp just annoys the hell out of my team, and I just have to take it down ASAP by whatever means possible. Tyranitar is a little bit easier because most are Choice Scarf, which means a lot of my team can take a hit and continue going about the gameplan. If it uses Earthquake, then I'm going to Salamence ASAP and spamming Flamethrower on the usual Steel-type switch. I tend to be able to cope with Machamp and Tyranitar though, it's more Raikou!

Conclusion

That's pretty much the end of my RMT, thanks a lot for reading! I'm not going to bother doing a threat list because it should be obvious if I counter something or not. Most of the time though, it relies on the current situation I am in, because it's all about thinking what's best for the core. It's awkward to say "this beats that" because a lot of the time its obviously going to have to played around if I'm at too low HP. But that's normally viable thanks to Wish / Leech Seed / Intimidate / Trick.

As I said near the start, I'm mostly looking for how this could adapt to a Salamence-less metagame. Obviously I need a replacement for Salamence which manages to cause enough outright damage to make most stall teams think hard before moving.
 
~ DOUBLE RAINBOW ~

twash <3 as I said on irc, try a mix Flygon out as a Mence replacement, or just a DC/EQ/FB/Roost@LO one, which is about as good a replacement as you'll get for this team imo (although it opens up a bit of a potential fighting weak). It also gives you an electric immunity, which could be pretty helpful. double rainbow yeah!!!!

 
Hey twash, cool team you have here! I'm not sure how well this team can transfer into a Menceless metagame, but I'll give it a shot. The first option is to run with Tab's idea of a LO Flygon in Mence's place, but as he said you'll have a slight Fighting weakness. To remedy that, you might think about changing Shaymin to Celebi for a useful Fighting resistance. However, the increased weakness to Tyranitar might turn you off.

I thought the fact that you used to use Venusaur over Shaymin was interesting. You didnt tell us why you stopped using it, but a physically attacking Venusaur could help by giving you a fighting resistance and checking Raikou just like Venusaur used to in UU. The set might look like Leech Seed / Protect / Earthquake / Power Whip.

You could also try a Choice Scarf Flygon instead of Mence and make Jirachi an Expert Belt holding Physically based Mix set with Thunderbolt for a great Raikou / TTar check and still a useful stall breaking Pokemon. Another possible set for Jirachi is this situation would be a CM / Psychic / Tbolt / Iron Head set that could be another unorthodox stallbreaker. Psychic could also nail Machamp for good damage. Just some things to think about. Good luck with your team!
 
I think that Hydro Pump over Surf on Starmie is better. Hydro Pump allows you to reliably deal with certain leads (barring its accuracy). The extra damage is worth it in the long run, though.

I agree with Tab's idea of Flygon. I'd still go with a standard Scarfed set however, but contrary to Friar's idea, I think you'd be fine with Scarfed Flygon and a Scarfed Jirachi.
 
@tab Hahaha, double rainbow, epic.

Anyway, I wouldn't recommend an Infernape replacement over Salamence, it gives your team another Ground Weakness, bringing the total to 3, and only 1 resist. As others have mentioned, LO Flygon can work in its place, although lacks power in both Atk and SpA. Dragonite is another one to look at, it has similar power, and obviously more bulk. I mean sure there are a billion things that now outspeed you, but with CS Jirachi and other great walls in the back, it shouldn't be a problem. Can't think of much else right now :S

Also it looks like Machamp could cause some problems, so you could perhaps try Psychic over Thunderbolt/Ice Beam on Starmie, seeing as Ice Beam doesn't really hit anything in the lead position.
 

firecape

This is the end...
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Maybe you could try LO Zapdos in mence's place? It would give you relatively the same resistances Mence has while still being able to recover via roost if you want, however you do lose the ability to stall break with it.
 

SlottedPig

sem feio
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Kudos on using Modest Heatran with Explosion, I really can't understand why people would lower their 106/106 defenses just to power up a move that will almost always OHKO anyway.

12 EVs into Speed from Special Defense on your Vaporeon would allow it to outspeed the majority of Scizor.

MixNite actually does better against Stall than Salamence due to Superpower, and ExtremeSpeed earns it a niche against offense, plus it comes with sexy special defense. On the other hand, it doesn't perform nearly as well against Lucario; however you can go Scarfachi on him, and even use Heatran if you're gutsy.

Congratulations with the success of this team.
 

vashta

"It was pretty cool to watch Tim Duncan from afar"
is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
i'm rather tired and haven't really thought this through properly, so feel free to ignore the following rambling.

not much to suggest i guess. i tried a Mence-less version of this team months ago and i tried two alternatives: Life Orb Flygon and Life Orb Gengar. both pokémon are awesome stall breakers, but flygon gets the surprise kill with draco meteor and fire blast on a switching Skarmory in particular. although both pokémon are excellent in their own right, LO Pain Split Gengar provides you with two factors that you desperately need to consider: fighting-type immunity and grass-type resistance.

yeah, lol at grass-type resistance, but this team really can have some troubles switching into lo shaymin, especially if heatran can't switch in twice, etcetera. gengar also fucks up stall and for that it may be the better choice.

lastly, consider changing ice beam on starmie for recover, particularly if you don't have to worry about salamence or latias (iirc you mainly used ice beam because of those two pokémon???). anyway, recover brings you obvious durability and means starmie is much more threatening, although i guess ice beam helps more with the aforementioned shaymin problem as gengar isn't the most reliable of "pseudo-checks". maybe consider it and see how it goes, but put against my previous suggestion, it may not be the wisest of things to do.

random: uturn > ice punch on jirachi???
 

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