Halp I am being painted as a rapist. how to become not rapist?
Once again, I think this is a case of poor wording on Impetus' part. I agree with what I believe the essence of his posts to have been, which is the following: People should try to keep behavior that makes them a likelier target of rape to a minimum. It's not that it's their fault that they are raped, they're not responsible for someone else's actions, however if I myself had a tendency to get drunk without a friend at a party and/or to dress provocatively or really to do anything else that puts a bullseye on me and increases my odds of being raped, I would try to avoid said behavior. I'm sure many rape victims have regretted making certain actions that they feel may have contributed to them being targeted, and I feel that the rest of us should try to learn from their misfortune. It obviously won't put an end to rape, but I'm confident it would lead to many being avoided.Honestly, I don't think I can respond to Impetus' posts without getting really angry, so I'll just point to the previous paragraph and leave this here:
Before I get chewed out and say I'm justifying rapists, I'm not.Saying that it's 100% the rapist'S fault is definitely unfairWhat I tried to show by saying it isn't the rapist's fault 100% is that you can't just scapegoat the damn guy
You've overdone this a bit. You lost me at puking. I always take good care of my friends who get sick. Also that would be disgusting. Also are you insinuating that she has a boyfriend? Cause that would never end well.For example, Blondie and you have been flirting for a while now. Every time you guys go out she teases you. She winks at you from afar, occasionally grinds her sweet, sweet ass on your dick, and maybe even kissed you once or twice. This particular night your dick is extra hard for her but she drank more than she usually does. She drank so much in fact, that before you guys even left the bar she was in the bathroom puking with her friends. Her friends slightly annoyed, consider her a burden and think its okay for you to take her home by yourself. Once your inside her place she says something like "oh my God, you're such a nice guy. I wish you were my boyfriend" or some shit like that. Do you think it would be okay for you to have sex with her in that situation?
If you read this post, please consider that I am not attempting to malign you, or make you come across as worse than you intended; I am trying to offer you a perspective I feel that your post lacks. I'm not even going to bring up the fact beyond this sentence that telling, for example, women to dress appropriately (this concept of 'dressing "provocatively" = raped' is pretty ignorant btw) so they don't get raped is oppressive; Dan and other posters already dealt with that.Once again, I think this is a case of poor wording on Impetus' part. I agree with what I believe the essence of his posts to have been, which is the following: People should try to keep behavior that makes them a likelier target of rape to a minimum. It's not that it's their fault that they are raped, they're not responsible for someone else's actions, however if I myself had a tendency to get drunk without a friend at a party and/or to dress provocatively or really to do anything else that puts a bullseye on me and increases my odds of being raped, I would try to avoid said behavior. I'm sure many rape victims have regretted making certain actions that they feel may have contributed to them being targeted, and I feel that the rest of us should try to learn from their misfortune. It obviously won't put an end to rape, but I'm confident it would lead to many being avoided.
If you choose to disagree with this, I'm not going to get into an argument over it, since it'll just be a case of contrast of opinion. At the moment I don't think I personally have anything to add, so really any argument would just result in trading insults/flaming/you get the point.
If you read this post, please consider that I am not attempting to malign you, or make you come across as worse than you intended; I am trying to offer you a perspective I feel that your post lacks. I'm not even going to bring up the fact beyond this sentence that telling, for example, women to dress appropriately (this concept of 'dressing "provocatively" = raped' is pretty ignorant btw) so they don't get raped is oppressive; Dan and other posters already dealt with that.
The reality of the situation is that -- as a girl -- I know that I don't live in a utopia where I am able to do as I like, go where I like when I like and with whom I like, etc. at all times without putting myself at risk. So, like most women, I don't regularly engage in unsafe behaviour, because I don't want anything bad to happen to me. It's not like I want to be raped, or any given person wants to be raped, so I avoid it -- and so? Most women are well aware of the dangers that face them in the world already, so why condescend to tell them? See, I just find this whole argument so naïve -- that if people stopped behaving unsafely, they wouldn't be raped, and the converse of that, that people who have been raped behaved unsafely. You even acknowledge when you say 'it obviously won't put an end to rape' that rape doesn't only arise as a result of unsafe behaviours... But you know what behaviour puts you at risk of rape? Interacting with other people. The statistics relating to the circumstances of rape have been brought up previously in the thread, so I won't reiterate them. Most people already seek to strike a balance between going about their lives pleasantly/efficiently and living safely. Don't you? So, really, you're offering nothing new, except a lame protestation in the face of a serious issue, and comforting yourself with having made that statement, as if it will somehow help. Reality check: it won't. Preventing rape has to start with stopping people from offending, not stopping people from being raped -- not just philosophically, but practically. In fact, attitudes like that don't help. Of course people should take precautions to keep themselves safe. That is called common sense. You even acknowledge rape victims beat themselves up after the fact -- and encourage the same victim-blaming mindset that leads them to do so. If anything, an important mental block on the way to recovery for many rape survivors is realising they didn't deserve to be raped. I imagine you try to avoid practices that would put you at risk of being mugged, for instance. If you were mugged, I doubt you'd want to hear that it's your fault.
A post like yours only accomplishes two things -- a) it shifts blame onto the victim, as if they brought about their rape, whether they risked anything or not, and lends legitimacy to the self-blaming that arises in many rape victims b) it ignores all the rapes that occur outside of situations like the ones you described (e.g. being raped by a relative or teacher where no inebriation or 'provocative' clothing is involved). While your post no doubt seems reasonable to you in its fence-sitting, it's fairly stark in its self-contradiction, because while you acknowledge that nobody is responsible for someone else raping them, you then say that if they had not done a given thing, it would have avoided them being raped. So you're directly linking certain behaviours = you're probably going to get raped. How are you not creating a sense of blame and direct responsibility there?
I am attributing the words to you, because you attributed them to yourself in the second paragraph; I may be mistaken and you may be attempting to paraphrase Impetus's arguments, in which case my points stand but are not directed at you. Also, please don't try to defend Impetus; he can defend himself, and he should be the one held accountable for his words, not you. I find his arguments reprehensibly hypocritical, and I think he should either reevaluate his attitude or his wording.
Why does everyone spell my name with 3 Zs? Also, there's been a lot of preaching to the choir in this thread. Most points have been made multiple times. I just don't remember anyone else making the specific point and not being misinterpreted, so I decided to join my fellow preachers.ETA: vonFiedler has kindly supplied the tl;dr for my post. Here it is. tl;dr: VuvuvelaBzzz is preaching to the choir.
Assuming you're asking me, I mainly used dressing provocatively as an example because Impetus had done so in his post. As far as what I'm suggesting goes, I'm only saying people should question what they do and decide what lengths they're willing to go to to lower the chances of being raped. That said, if they're willing to wear sweaters and longs pants 100% of the time, that would probably cover not dressing provocatively, despite it being a pretty loose term.What constitutes "Dressing provocatively". Mainstream women's clothes are pretty revealing in and of themselves. Are you suggesting they should wear sweaters and long pants 100% of the time in order to avoid being raped?
I don't think anyone's saying otherwise, but in most cases a rapist would probably choose someone dressed like this, rather than someone "wearing long pants and a sweater" as iDunno put it.It shouldn't matter how "provocatively" your clothes may seem. Again, its a matter of basic rights. Women should not have to fear dressing how they want because of being attacked and forced up on sexually.
Hey, that's actually pretty accurate if you add 50 years to the woman in the middle. Even down to the messiness of the table!
That's irrelevant. There is no woman alive that would wear those hideous boots - especially in combination with that tank top and those shorts.EDIT:
I don't think anyone's saying otherwise, but in most cases a rapist would probably choose someone dressed like this, rather than someone "wearing long pants and a sweater" as iDunno put it.
I believe you and I are actually on the same side. You were correct in your first paragraph about my intentions, because expressing my interpretation of the legalities was my goal. I've stated several times that I have zero tolerance for men taking advantage of women (or vice versa) in any form, whether it be physical, emotional, etc. If a guy waits until a girl is wasted to try to have sex with her, that is the most disgusting moral crime I can think of. Now, what I was really trying to do was to shed some light on that gray area where alcohol is involved, because you can't ignore the fact that a person gets drunk on purpose. You can't "accidentally" get drunk. When a person chooses to get drunk, they take responsibility for the fact that their judgment is going to be impaired severely. This may sound harsh, but if you get drunk and then consent to sex with someone then I can't have too much sympathy for you. You have every control over how much and what you put into your body, so if you don't want to have your judgment taken advantage of, don't get freakin drunk. Now, if a person gets drunk and actually passes out, and then a person has sex with them without asking, then that's rape. But if you're still awake and conscious and you say yes, that's consent.Waterbomb/Impetus, I'm assuming you both have good intentions and don't mean to sound like rapists making excuses for previous encounters, and are instead focusing on the social and legal definition of rape/trying to protect victims... but jesus, your responses are horrifying. Focusing on Waterbomb's posts first... according to wikipedia (obviously the most trustworthy source since my net is weak and can't load anything more direct), the FBI defines rape as "The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim." Emphasis by me.
So basically, if a person doesn't say yes, then what you (general you) did is rape. Socially speaking, it shouldn't fucking be 'it's not rape until he or she says no', it should be 'it's rape until he or she says yes'. Honestly, it really comes off like you think the right of someone to get their rocks off comes (hur hur) first.
Would you suggest that if I waited until you got too drunk to walk around and do anything besides lay down and slur your own name, and then invited a few of my friends around to have anal sex with you (because obviously, having alcohol means you were putting up a sign saying "all dicks welcome"), we wouldn't be rapists, we'd just be douchebags. Obviously the real rape victims would feel bad if you were allowed to say you were raped. Rape is serious unless it happens to a lot of people? Now, granted, alcohol and drug consumption is a bit of a grey area because it can be difficult to know when the line is crossed and the person is too far gone to still be able to say yes, but your example is pretty clearly past that point.
The second thing is pretty clearly sexual assault if Myzozoa didn't stop when Oglemi first said stop. Stop or any sort of safe word doesn't mean 'try harder', it means stop or you're a damn rapist. I don't think anyone would consider the third example rape unless the person is being threatened into it, but I absolutely believe that if someone tells you to fuck off and they aren't interested, you should get lost and not "try harder".
Basically the idea is respect other people's rights to decide what goes into their own bodies, don't keep on trying or scare them into submission. Rape has everything to do with consent, which can be given in verbal and/or non-verbal ways (so if you're one of those people who has trouble understanding body language, switch to getting verbal confirmation about it). It has nothing to do with what the rapist or rape victim was wearing, it doesn't matter where they were, it doesn't matter whether they were strangers or lovers or friends or relatives. If you haven't got someone's consent and still have sex with them (or do anything sexually penetrative), you've raped them.
It's a legitimate question, however it's not healthy for a victim to be thinking about it, that's why I'm saying they shouldn't. In terms of baseless assumptions, if by baseless you mean not backed up by statistics, you're right. But I myself am an example of various of a person who hadn't given much thought to the subject, and I know many others who haven't done so as well. Maybe I'm just familiar with an odd sample of society, then I really am making baseless assumptions. Obviously thinking that if people did give thought and changed their bahaviour to some extent will make the instances of rape decrease isn't a claim I can prove through facts, but I believe that to some degree it would. I can't really respond to what you're saying if you don't give me specific examples. Anyways, I don't really want to bicker in the thread, so if you care to clear this up, we can continue in VM until some consensus is reached, if that happens. Same goes for anyone else.I think everyone knows that you probably shouldnt take a "crazy new drug" offered to you by the truck driver you hitched a ride home from in a secluded wood after drinking all night. But people should dress however the fuck they want.
When you say "it is a legitimate question that people who have not been raped and want to avoid it should ask themselves" how does it not immediately follow that "it is a legitimate question that people who have been raped and are looking for who to blame should ask themselves". This is kinda the point here, despite what you claim, you actually are encouraging victims to beat themselves up. And to be honest, I dont think you are making much of any point otherwise..
Also you are making a lot of baseless assumptions..
I'm not saying it always applies. I'm fully aware it's not always the case. Old women are raped as well, but in many circumstances what I said is true. Obviously dress isn't the only determining factor, nor did I ever claim it to be. I never claimed that it goes for every case.Also, that isn't true and the fact that you think it is just shows how deluded and ignorant you are. There are many women who are raped regardless of what they wear.
Why do you have this singular image of rape? A single rapist with a single motive, who rapes strangers based on lust ('would probably choose someone'), and a single type of rape victim, dressed provocatively and attractively.I don't think anyone's saying otherwise, but in most cases a rapist would probably choose someone dressed like this, rather than someone "wearing long pants and a sweater" as iDunno put it.
I already responded to this point, but I'd like to add that if people gave thought and changed their behaviour so they stopped raping people, the incidence of rape would decrease too.Obviously thinking that if people did give thought and changed their bahaviour to some extent will make the instances of rape decrease isn't a claim I can prove through facts, but I believe that to some degree it would.
George Carlin got away with jokes about all sorts of shit because they were very obviously jokes.George Carlin got away with rape jokes, so really so should this guy. This definitively shouldn't be some career ending moment for him, just a wake up call
It's cool, I appreciate that you're trying to take this shit on board. I didn't really focus on the latter two examples because I figured it was something you already factored in. That said, I don't really agree with you re: alcohol and consent. Obviously it's a fairly complex issue because it's not like people regularly carry breathalysers around and we have some sort of set in stone "unable to consent = X% BAC" level, and becomes even harder to deal with if both parties are drunk, but personally, I say that if you can't trust someone to drive, why on earth would you trust them to be able to say yes to sex?I believe you and I are actually on the same side. You were correct in your first paragraph about my intentions, because expressing my interpretation of the legalities was my goal. I've stated several times that I have zero tolerance for men taking advantage of women (or vice versa) in any form, whether it be physical, emotional, etc. If a guy waits until a girl is wasted to try to have sex with her, that is the most disgusting moral crime I can think of. Now, what I was really trying to do was to shed some light on that gray area where alcohol is involved, because you can't ignore the fact that a person gets drunk on purpose. You can't "accidentally" get drunk. When a person chooses to get drunk, they take responsibility for the fact that their judgment is going to be impaired severely. This may sound harsh, but if you get drunk and then consent to sex with someone then I can't have too much sympathy for you. You have every control over how much and what you put into your body, so if you don't want to have your judgment taken advantage of, don't get freakin drunk. Now, if a person gets drunk and actually passes out, and then a person has sex with them without asking, then that's rape. But if you're still awake and conscious and you say yes, that's consent.
As for the example of Myzozoa and Oglemi, I believe I conceded that point after Myzo's earlier post and said I would include that case in the realm of rape, due to the fact that fear could scare them into not resisting. You are correct, once the person objects and the other person continues, that becomes at a minimum sexual assault. Like I said before, all I am looking to do is expand my knowledge and refine my beliefs, so if I'm underinformed or misinformed, I want to find out. That doesn't mean my opinions are any more/less correct than anyone else's, it just means I want my opinions to be based on fact and not myth. Thanks for your response though, it's helped me greatly.