1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Throh (Analysis) [QC 0/3]

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Venser, Mar 12, 2011.

  1. Venser

    Venser

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2010
    Messages:
    1,638
    [​IMG]
    Throh/Nageki.

    Status: Going through, removing Ubers mentions. testing the viability of these sets as well.
    ________
    [Overview]
    • Most defensive Fighting-type made yet (120 HP and 85 Defenses).
    • Related to above, has few exploitable weaknesses and key resistances to Rock, Bug, and Dark attacks.
    • Excellent phazing potential with Overhead Throw.
    • Poor STAB options but excellent coverage movepool.
    • Limited offensive potential (100 Atk) and poor Speed (45).
    [SET]
    name: Phazer
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Overhead Throw
    move 3: Body Slam
    move 4: Payback
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Guts
    nature: Impish
    evs: 252 HP / 64 Atk / 136 Def / 56 SpD

    [set comments]

    • With excellent physical defense, Nageki's Substitutes can withstand basically every unboosted Dragon Tail, allowing it to avoid being phazed away.
    • EVs are split to survive STAB Dragon Tails, then to maximize special bulk. Resultingly Nageki takes 48% maximum from Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball.
    • 111 HP Substitutes also survive Seismic Toss, allowing an undamaged Nageki to phaze out a Blissey that switches in without losing Sub in the process.
    • The Substitute also survive all U-turns (including CB Scizor's at 18.9-22.3%), reducing the effectiveness of scouting against Nageki.
    • Overhead Throw phazes out opponents, preventing the opponent from setting up.
    • Body Slam's high paralysis rate allows Nageki to paralyze faster opponents and phaze them out before they can Roar or Whirlwind.
    • Payback 2HKO's Rapid Spin Starmie and OHKO's Gengar after Stealth Rock damage.
    [additional comments]

    • Nageki is at the same Base Speed as Dusknoir, so if you run Relaxed or alter speed IVs you can get double damage from Payback.
    • If you run paralysis support on the rest of your team, Bulk Up can be used over Body Slam to let Nageki phaze bulkier set-up Pokemon like Roobushin.
    • Taunt can also be used over Body Slam to prevent phazing from Roar and Whirlwind without relying on paralysis.
    • Pokemon that can set up hazards are ideal for Nageki, especially if they draw primarily Rock Attacks. Skarmory does this quite well, while also drawing the fire and electric attacks that can status Nageki, activating Guts.
    • A Spinblocker is also ideal, so bulky Ghosts like Desukan or Dusknoir
    • If running Bulk Up, multiple pokemon with paralysis moves is ideal. Jarooda is particularly notable for being a fast pokemon with Glare that tends to lure out Skarmory, while chasing away Swampert. Both are common phazers that can act before Nageki.
    • Bulky Pokemon with Substitute keep Nageki from phazing them out, they can then try and overpower it over time.
    • A successful use of Rapid Spin ruins much of the damage potential that Nageki gets out of repeatedly switching opponents into hazards.
    • Faster Roar and Whirlwind users like Swampert and Skarmory can phaze Nageki out before it do the same to them with Overhead Throw.
    • If Nageki is not behind a Subsitute, powerful Psychic and Flying attacks can usually take it out.
    [SET]
    name: Special Defensive Booster
    move 1: Bulk Up
    move 2: Mountain Storm / Brick Break
    move 3: Stone Edge
    move 4: Payback
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Guts
    nature:Careful
    evs: 208 HP / 48 Atk / 252 SpD

    [Set Comments]
    • Ideal switch-in to Boiling Water or Will-o-Wisp, able to capitalize on the low damage and become a very bulky threat with Guts and Bulk Up.
    • Only Toxicroak resists the combination of Fighting/Dark/Rock, everything else is hit for neutral or better damage.
    • Mountain Storm has more technical power than Brick Break (80 after guaranteed crit is factored ib) and ignores opposing stat boosts, but is ineffective against Battle Armor Pokemon and can set off Anger Point. Brick Break breaks down the opponent's screens and has no drawback. Nageki's other STAB options are either weaker or more situational.
    [additional comments]

    • Earthquake may be substituted in for Stone Edge or Payback depening on how your team covers other threats.
    • Facade is risky because Nageki is not guaranteed to be statused, but is Nageki's most powerful move when boosted.
    • Nageki's other STAB options are Revenge, which requires being hit to be worth the payoff and has negative priority, Ankle Sweep which is weak and won't lower much of anything important to Nageki's speed, and Superpower, which has the most immediate power but balances out a Bulk Up boost.
    • Overhead Throw can be used over a coverage move to help secure any boosts Nageki gets and force out scarier sweepers.
    • Strong physical sweepers that can lure out Bulky Waters and bait Will-o-Wisp to provide Nageki a chance to wear the opponent down.
    • Rapid Spin support to keep entry damage on Nageki's initial switch-in to a minimum. Donphan and Doryuuzu are notable for luring out Bulky Waters.
    • Toxic Spikes make it much easier for Nageki to wear down Bulky Waters for your other sweepers.
    • Skarmory counters Nageki like it does most physical threats.
    • Milotic can still Haze or Phaze away most of its boosts with Dragon Tail, although it can't win in a direct confrontation.
    [Optional Changes]
    • Nageki has a fairly limited movepool and a very specific niche; it performs offensive sets poorly in comparison to its counterparts.
    • However, this means Toxic is always an option for crippling those bulky Pokemon that aren't utilizing Rest.
    [Counters]
    • Skarmory counters Nageki expertly and is difficult to wear down.
    • Bulky Waters that can phaze and possess reliable recovery of their own can minimize Nageki's attempts to wear an opposing team down.
    [Dream World]
    • Mold Breaker enhances the Phazing set's prowess by allowing Nageki to bypass odd abilities like Battle Armor and Suction Cups and making Earthquake a comparable coverage move to Payback. Both will KO Gengar, but Earthquake will also nail defensive Pokemon like Bronzong and Rotom-A. Since the phazing set operates much of the time behind a Substitute, Status isn't as big an issue, and it'd prefer Leftovers recovery to a Guts boost anyway.
  2. Rudoku

    Rudoku

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2004
    Messages:
    407
    Unless they changed how criticals work back to rby levels, or just did that to this (and it's Ice clone) move, then it shouldn't ignore the Bulk Ups.
  3. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2010
    Messages:
    3,597
    where the hell did you get this.

    Also, wouldn't it be better to put the HP to 404, then place the remaining in Attack or Special Defense? You still survive Blissey's Seismic Tosses anyway.
  4. ParaChomp

    ParaChomp

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2010
    Messages:
    596
    You still need enough HP to survive Choice Band Sizor's U-Turn however, I don't know how much HP you need to survive it by 1 HP but aside from that, I agree with what you just said.

    To be honest I would use this:

    evs: 92 HP / 68 Atk / 140 Def / 208 SpD
    ivs: 31 HP

    You can just run 404 HP using the EV and IV spreads given. This EV spread gives you equal defences and a bit more of a punch.
  5. yee

    yee
    is a Tutoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2010
    Messages:
    1,111
    Please people, stop using leftovers numbers/101 HP subs to stop investing in HP. You get a more durable pokemon by maxing HP first. The set in the analysis has way more defensive potential than a 92 HP spread.
  6. D.a.v.E

    D.a.v.E

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2010
    Messages:
    39
    I dont think 100 attack makes it a low sweeping capability. with trick room support it could work as a sweeper
  7. badabing

    badabing hevy hangs da hood,,

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2010
    Messages:
    801
    I'll save you the argument considering your status...Excuse the post. Must have been the RBY talking. Or maybe the pills
  8. Boarbaque

    Boarbaque

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2010
    Messages:
    201
    Overhead Throw is the Japanese name, the English name is Circle Throw. http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Circle_Throw_(move)

    Storm Throw is the Japanese name, the English name is Storm Throw. http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Storm_Throw_(move)

    Ankle Sweep is the Japanese name, the English name is Low Sweep. http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Low_Sweep_(move)

    You also refer to him as Nageki several times when his English name is Throh. http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Throh_(Pokémon)

    You mention Doryuuzu but in English he is known as Excadrill. http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Excadrill
  9. Rudoku

    Rudoku

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2004
    Messages:
    407
  10. A Man In Black

    A Man In Black

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2005
    Messages:
    281
    Clearer?
  11. Samri72

    Samri72

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2
    Toxic Orb + Guts + Facade Throh anyone?
  12. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 29, 2008
    Messages:
    4,269
    QC Post

    After testing, I determined the following:

    Bulk Up (yes this should be the name of the set, not sdef booster or anything like that) should be the first set, and it should look like this:

    [SET]
    name: Special Defensive Booster
    move 1: Bulk Up
    move 2: Circle Throw / Storm Throw / Brick Break
    move 3: Payback
    move 4: Rest / Stone Edge
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Guts
    nature:Careful
    evs: 208 HP / 48 Atk / 252 SpD

    Storm Throw is stronger, but the ability to PHaze lets Throh beat all other boosters, including Conkledurr and Scrafty, something that's very useful. It also lets Throh be semi-supportive midgame. Rest is used because the coverage from Stone Edge isn't super-useful, and Throh has no issues surviving weakened stuff in the endgame with Rest. It also makes it pretty nasty against stall, fwiw. Note that Throh's low speed means it gets out-sped by most Roar / Whirlwind / Dragon Tail users, so it's hard for Circle Throw sets to get around Skarmory. Brick Break has crit chance, which can help it edge out Storm Throw sometimes.
  13. A Man In Black

    A Man In Black

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2005
    Messages:
    281
    Doesn't it already beat both of them in a Bulk Up race with Storm Throw? ST goes right through the defensive boosts. Or are you referring to its ability to come into +1 Conk/Scrafty and CT them out?
  14. Bloo

    Bloo
    is a Tutoris a Tournament Directoris a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis an Administratoris Smogon Frontier's Pike Queenis a Past WCoP Winnerdefeated the Smogon Frontier
    Head TD

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2009
    Messages:
    1,742
    Are you still working on this? You haven't implemented nor responded to SDS's suggestions, so I will be locking this under inactivity if you aren't going to.
  15. Bloo

    Bloo
    is a Tutoris a Tournament Directoris a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis an Administratoris Smogon Frontier's Pike Queenis a Past WCoP Winnerdefeated the Smogon Frontier
    Head TD

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2009
    Messages:
    1,742
    Locking under inactivity.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)