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Throh (BW2 Revamp) [QC 2/3] [AVAILABLE]

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Laga, Sep 1, 2013.

  1. Laga

    Laga Drinking is borrowing happiness from tomorrow
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    [Overview]
    • Fantastic bulk combined with solid Attack.
    • Access to Bulk Up is nice, as it is hard to break with a few boosts under it's belt.
    • Great ability with Guts. It makes a RestTalk set viable, as well as being able to benefit from burns.
    • Weakness to common Psychic- and Flying-type moves can sometimes wear it down quickly.
    • Even though it is slow, it resorts to bulk to plow through teams with BU + Circle Throw.
    [SET]
    name: Bulky Phazer
    move 1: Circle Throw
    move 2: Bulk Up
    move 3: Rest
    move 4: Sleep Talk / Payback
    item: Leftovers / Chesto Berry
    ability: Guts
    nature: Careful
    evs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]
    • Circle Throw is Throh's best STAB option, as it can phaze while doing damage, working alongide entry hazards very well.
    • A few Bulk Up boosts = super bulky both specially and physically, and more attacking power.
    • Rest is Throh's only recovery, and it adds to longetivity
    • Sleep Talk goes well with Rest, and lets Throh stay in for much longer, but Payback is Throh's only way of hitting Ghost-types, and forms near-perfect neutral coverage with Circle Throw.
    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • Leftovers should be used if running Sleep Talk, but Chesto Berry is preferred if running Payback.
    • Specially defensive spread goes well with Bulk Up to make Throh much harder to break.
    • More offensive spread of 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD is an option, and it should definitely be used if running Chesto Berry.
    • Teammates that set entry hazards are a necessity, as Circle Throw will not do much damage without hazards on the field.
    • Metang sets up SR and sponges threatening Flying- and Psychic-type attacks like it's nothing.
    • Misdreavus is also a great partner, as it can spinblock the entry hazards that Throh needs to function, as well as being able to burn physical attackers, thus letting Throh set up more easily.
    • Pursuit-trapping is very important for Throh to function properly, especially if not running Payback, as it will otherwise have no options against Ghost-types.
    • Therefore Skuntank is a great partner, as it can trap and remove Ghost- and Psychic-types.
    [Other Options]
    • Trick Room attacker! Toxic Orb with a moveset of Superpower, Earthquake, Payback, and Stone Edge. Would, of course, require Trick Room support from teammates. This set is quite mediocre though, since Superpower limits it's sweeping capabilities, and Trick Room is not exactly the best strategy.
    • Storm Throw to break through opposing Bulk Up, but Circle Throw phazes them out anyway.
    • Toxic and Knock Off for support set, but Gurdurr is more consistent with this job due to Drain Punch.
    • Brick Break is almost as powerful as Storm Throw, and can break through screens, but since dual screens are uncommon, Brick Break won't have much utility.
    [Checks and Counters]
    • Most of it's counters are hard to switch into, especially if there are hazards on the field.
    • Ghost-types are immune to Circle Throw, and cannot be touched bar Payback.
    • Taunt and Encore will mess with it.
    • Misdreavus has Taunt, Drifblim has Acrobatics, and SubDisable Haunter is literally impossible to break through. CB Golurk can also put pressure on Throh with powerful Earthquakes.
    • Psychic-types, such as Musharna and Gardevoir, can sponge Throh's STAB move, and hit Throh very hard with their STAB move.
    • Jynx is a shaky check; it can hit Throh hard as well, but it is extremely risky to switch it in.
    • Flying-types can hit it hard, but have a very hard time switching into Throh, as they have a weakness to Stealth Rock.
    • Mandibuzz and Golbat wall it, and they both have ways of dealing with it; they both have Taunt and Whirlwind; Whirlwind will go before Circle Throw. Note that Circle Throw doesn't have negative priority if pulled from Sleep Talk, so play carefully if Throh is sleeping. Golbat can also use Haze to put a complete stop to Throh.
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2013
  2. Hollywood

    Hollywood ᕕ┌◕ᗜ◕┐ᕗ Chugga Chugga! ᕕ┌◕ᗜ◕┐ᕗ
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    ok, sorry about the wait on this Laga

    [Overview]

    The Overview pretty much needs redone because it's really negative, which doesn't really reflect Throh at all. It's honestly a stellar Pokemon, but it doesn't see much use because it needs a decent amount of support in order to excel, whereas other Fighting-types are fairly self-sufficient outside of Pursuit support. I'd like to see some major things highlighted: its superb bulk, Guts (which means even if it can't Rest off status, it can hit even harder, and if you are running RestTalk, you get a power boost while Throh is asleep), and Circle Throw (one of the main things that separates it from Gurdurr, aside from its far superior special bulk). The main downside of Throh is its need for team support—hazards, Pursuit support, Heal Bell if not running Sleep Talk—and its lack of reliable recovery. I wrote some things about the Overview before I wrote all of this, and because I think it's still useful information, I'm leaving it below.
    • Its limited movepool really doesn't matter that much because it has Circle Throw and Bulk Up, which are really all it needs.
    • It's not that hard to sweep with Throh really. It doesn't need high Speed in order to sweep because it has stellar defenses and doesn't care about status bar Frz.
    • It also isn't outclassed by anything else because no other Fighting-type in NU has its fantastic mixed bulk or a great phazing move, so cut the point about Sawk because the two aren't even remotely comparable.
    [SET COMMENTS]
    • When comparing Sleep Talk and Payback, note that if you're running Payback, you leave Throh really vulnerable while it's asleep and can be forced out and lose a sweep where it could have otherwise kept boosting/phazing. I honestly find Sleep Talk to be significantly better and wouldn't mind Payback + Chesto Berry being moved to AC, but I'll wait on that until more QC members comment.
    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • Stress the importance of hazards and Pursuit support. Right now, it sounds like Throh likes these things but doesn't need them, when in reality, it is fairly dependent upon both in order to exceed.
    • Add in a mention of Heal Bell support if you're not running Sleep Talk. Misdreavus is good for this, as Throh can take out the Dark-types that threaten Misdreavus. Ampharos can also cover its Flying-type weakness.
    • Misdreavus in general is a great partner for Throh. It spinblocks, can run Heal Bell, can burn physical attackers to give Throh an easier time setting up, etc.
    [Other Options]
    • The Trick Room set sounds pretty bad lol. Trick Room attackers should be able to stay in throughout the duration of Trick Room, and Superpower kind of prevents that. The set is fine to mention, but be sure to note that it's not very good for this reason and because Trick Room in general isn't a good team style in NU.
    • That's... really about it. You can mention Knock Off aside Toxic as a sort of bulky support set, but Gurdurr is generally a better bulky pivot because of Drain Punch.
    [Checks and Counters]
    • Really slim right now. Ghost-types should be mentioned first though. Misdreavus donks it if it's not running Payback, and even if it is, Missy can Taunt it and switch out to something else. Perish Song Missy can also force it out. Drifblim can switch in on anything except for Payback and do one of force Throh out because it won't be able to touch it, smack it with a strong Acrobatics, or take it out with Destiny Bond. SubDisable Haunter walls it. Golurk can spam CB Earthquake against it to put major pressure on it.
    • State that it's really not that easy to switch into Throh. Most of the Pokemon that can break it don't want to come in against it, and the ones that want to come in against it can't usually do a whole lot to it.
    • Taunt and Encore users mess with it a lot. Any Encore user can lock it into Bulk Up, Rest, or Sleep Talk and wear it down, force it out, or eventually force it to Struggle and kill itself.
    • Faster phazers force it out. Mandibuzz is the best example I can think of. Golbat with either Haze or Whirlwind shuts it down, as do Taunt variants.
    • I can't think of any Flying-type that wants to switch into a Circle Throw, especially considering their Stealth Rock weakness. When you mention them, be sure to emphasize that they can hit it hard but rarely want to switch in. Once it's gotten a few Bulk Ups in, no Flying-type outside of maybe Golbat really wants to come in on it.
    Implement these and I'll look again. Also, Zebraiken was talking to me a while back about a Throh set with something like Bulk Up / Circle Throw / Ice Punch / Rest @ Chesto Berry with some Speed EVs. I'm not sure if he remembers it, but if so, we can scrap Chesto + Payback from the first set and make a new set with this. For now, make these changes, but I'd like to hear from him. :)
  3. Laga

    Laga Drinking is borrowing happiness from tomorrow
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    Alright, I have finally implemented all of your changes Treecko, thanks for the check :)
  4. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    I noticed that Throh learns Body Slam. That could go into OO since Throh could definitely make use of it due to its bulk, but doesn't help against its counters (Ghosts).
  5. Soulgazer

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    You could possibly add Metang as a partner in AC. Metang takes nothing from Flying- and Psychic-type moves, it can set up Stealth Rock and Toxic Pokemon like Alomomola and Musharna to make Throh's life easier. Throh can also take most Ground-type moves easily with its awsome bulk, as for Fire-type move I'm pretty sure it can take on most Fire-type in the tier with the exception of Charizard.
  6. Laga

    Laga Drinking is borrowing happiness from tomorrow
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    Definitely having Metang as a partner; nicely seen Soulgazer. Though not sure about Body Slam right now. Cold work on some supportive set or something, but Throh's main role is to slowly plow through teams with crazy bulk and residual hazard / phazing damage.
  7. Hollywood

    Hollywood ᕕ┌◕ᗜ◕┐ᕗ Chugga Chugga! ᕕ┌◕ᗜ◕┐ᕗ
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    re-checking this without remembering most of what I told you to implement, so if I contradict myself a bit, don't worry about it.

    AC: mention that max HP max Atk is preferred for ChestoRest sets.

    C&C: when you talk about Flying-types, just state that their Stealth Rock weakness makes it harder to switch in, especially because they might end up being phased out. Mandibuzz also doesn't really wall Throh so much as fuck its job up with Whirlwind (or at least prevent boosting/recovery with Taunt).

    Good stuff. QC Approved 1/3
  8. Dat Blast

    Dat Blast feel god's wrath
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    The only negative you have listed in the Overview is that it's slow. Add how it has common weaknesses and gets forced out by common Psychics and birds. Also tell how Ghosts tend to walk all over it.

    Mention Missy as a great partner because of what Treecko said in his first post. Also I'd rather not point out Jynx specifically in C&C; it can't switch in for shit, and Throh doesn't even care about Lovely Kiss for the most part. Just mention it alongside other Psychics if you want but point out that Jynx can't "sponge" Throh's STAB.

    When talking about faster phazers in C&C, point out that if Throh Sleep Talks a Circle Throw it doesn't have negative priority, so it'll actually go first.

    QC Approved 2/3 Good work Laga :)
  9. Laga

    Laga Drinking is borrowing happiness from tomorrow
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    Woops forgot about this - I got all the changes yesterday (I hope I got all of them, please tell me if i didn't :x)

    I'll get this written up some time soon, after I write up Cacturne. Sorry for taking a lot of time with these though :|
  10. Hollywood

    Hollywood ᕕ┌◕ᗜ◕┐ᕗ Chugga Chugga! ᕕ┌◕ᗜ◕┐ᕗ
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    Cacturne is done now. You still working on this? If not, I could probably write it up pretty quickly for you, but if you still want to do it, don't let me stop you.
  11. Laga

    Laga Drinking is borrowing happiness from tomorrow
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    sorry, I won't be having the time to write this Treecko

    Social life + holiday kind of hit me in the face.
  12. Raseri

    Raseri here to help
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    Oh i just saw this now. If anyone wants to take this over, please post in this thread.
  13. scorpdestroyer

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    lol it's been too long, I'll take over seeing as nobody wants to
  14. Raseri

    Raseri here to help
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    alright. make a new thread and ill move this one

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